Author Topic: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer  (Read 9087 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« on: 08 March 2015, 14:43:47 »


Few of those reading this are unfamiliar with the Hetzer, the classic box-on-wheels from the game's early days- by far and away the cheapest, if not most efficient, way to bring an assault-caliber autocannon to the field. Courtesy of the good folks at Quickscell, the Hetzer has been a staple of militia forces for untold decades, and while its poor construction and major limitations are well-known, a well-parked Hetzer can deliver a massive punch that can turn the tide of battle.

But the Hetzer isn't alone in the 'big-ass gun on a cheap chassis' game. While we only recently got our first look at it, for a long time the Ceres-built Predator played the same role for the Capellan Confederation. What we'll do here is cover the original model first, then move to the new model causing the Federated Suns and Republic so many problems in the Dark Age. Don't worry- what seems like a simple weapon system is, much like the Kinnol we covered last week, a lot more than it appears on the surface.

Bringing a standard-model Predator into the VotW test bay, we find that it weighs in at 45 tons, five tons larger than its Quickscell opponent. A big chunk of that weight goes into a surprisingly big chunk of engine- while internal combustion (because who is going to put a fusion engine on a Succession Wars-era disposable vehicle, really?), the big motor propels the Predator to a surprising 5/8 movement curve. That's nothing to sneeze at- remember that its nearest competition, the Hetzer- hell, we can even throw in the Hunchback- move at 4/6 in this era. That means you're in range to use that cannon that much sooner- no small consideration, as anyone who has tried to use Hetzers to effect can attest. From this standpoint, the Predator has a clear advantage. Toss in the tracks in place of the Hetzer's wheels, and we have a vehicle that can get just about anywhere on the battlefield much easier than its cousin.

That advantage takes a bit of a backseat though when we look at the armor. The Hetzer packs a solid six-ton shell of armor over its frame, ensuring that while it won't get where it needs to be as quick as a Predator, it's much more likely to survive a few hits to get there. Predator? Yeeeah, don't get attached to your Predator crew. With only half the armor of the Hetzer, it's not very reliable when the shots start landing. Thirty points up front ensure that you don't get any funny ideas about pointing any other side at an enemy- keep the cannon pointed, and the armor should hold for a few hits. Anywhere else can keep out a medium laser and hold, and not a great deal more.

While I'm not one to usually gloss over the weapons of a vehicle, this is a pretty standard setup familiar to the Hetzer. It's the classic AC-20 we know, love, and secretly clench our butts at the sight of. Where the Hetzer packs four tons of ammo, the Predator has a mere single ton, but it's safe to say that Predators won't need more than that- that armor won't survive five turns of fighting, and if it does you'll probably be all set to use that speed to zip home for more ammo (and armor patchup) immediately anyway. If you're not sure how to use an AC-20 on tracks, welcome to Battletech, please read the site rules and say hello to everyone. ;)

So. After some disasters in its use that sent the Predator into the doghouse (explaining why we didn't see it in the earlier days of Battletech nicely), the Predator found recent new life with the Capellans. A few key changes make a quick but thin-shelled gun into a really intriguing tank destroyer for the new era. We start with a fuel cell engine that moves the Predator to 6/9, making it even faster than before. If it was important before to move quick, in the 3145 era it's absolutely vital. Things just move faster on the battlefield than they did a hundred years ago- and the Predator keeps pace nicely, even outrunning the neighbors' new Hanse tank destroyer (at least without the occasional burst a Hanse can put on).

We see a switch to heavy ferro-fibrous armor, and more of it, make a flimsy vehicle at least a good bit more durable. 45 points up front mean that one can take a pretty good bit of return fire as you charge in now, while the sides reflect the faster speeds of flanking units of the modern era with 16 points, enough to withstand a fast moving Gauss or heavy PPC (like the one on the Blitzkrieg, no coincidence there I'm sure). 12 points on the rear is still not much, but it's double the original- let's be glass half-full here, shall we? Bottom line, this isn't a frontline MBT- using it as such is just a bad idea.

The AC mounted in the front of the Predator has been replaced by a nasty Mydron LB-20X. If you can't figure out why this is an upgrade from the old AC-20, didn't I tell you to go read the site rules and say hello, newbie? The Predator really is a tank destroyer now, able to punch through heavy armor as before and just as able to cluster-shot the daylights out of enemy vehicles. Versatility is key here, and the newly up-armored, up-gunned, and up-engined Predator is just flat better in every way than it used to be. We even have a second ton of ammunition now, allowing us to switch ammo types on the fly.

So, we have a vehicle that's faster (in both eras) than its competition, just survivable enough to get into range to take a shot at the enemy before dying, and just as able to put a gigantic hole in whatever it hits. It's not as tough as a Hetzer, but its speed makes it an interesting counter- if you're a Hetzer fan, give this a try and see what you think of the tradeoff for speed at the cost of toughness.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #1 on: 08 March 2015, 15:31:47 »
I've always found VOTW and MOTW articles to be something I anticipate more than the anime magazine I get in the mail every few months. That is good, because I enjoy that magazine a great deal (Too bad the yaoi section isn't nearly as good anymore. Oh well.)

Anyways, I find that I'll probably have a lot of problems with this design. My regular opponent prefers Cappie designs more than he'll admit, and this seems right up his alley. I better start armoring my vehicle's motive systems and guard them with things that aren't as vulnerable to LB-X peppering.

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #2 on: 08 March 2015, 16:22:55 »
in addition to the critseeking advantage of the LBX.. it's got 50% more range. so the upgrade not only moves faster and is a touch longer lasting.. it can start doing it's hole punching farther out. which ought to increase survivability more. (for the tank anyway.. the target is in trouble.. :) )

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #3 on: 08 March 2015, 16:45:57 »
I love these.... it's actually one of the best vehicles in the 3145 era, in my opinion.
Finally, a Battletech equivelent to the StuG -----

Actually, these are also very good on the defensive.... the ability to move backwards at 6 is not to be discounted, and 2 or 3 of these can create "no-go" zones over a sizeable chunk of battlefield, especially against fast moving hovers and other fragile units used for flanking..... in addition, since Battletech does not take certain things into account, such as elevation on turret, you can also use that speed to rush into range on VtoL's and do wondrous things to their rotars.

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #4 on: 08 March 2015, 16:57:26 »
Now that's a tank I have never heard of.
I like it.
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #5 on: 08 March 2015, 18:00:48 »
Tank Destroyer is a dated term, rather call it the Predator AC-20 Carrier.
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #6 on: 08 March 2015, 19:46:27 »
Tank Destroyer is a dated term, rather call it the Predator AC-20 Carrier.

With LB-20X, it sure seems to be a Tank Destroyer in BT. Or perhaps Tank Demobilizer, but that's close enough.

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #7 on: 08 March 2015, 21:07:12 »
Call it a valet, since its job is to assist in the parking of every tank that shows up in Liao space. :)
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #8 on: 08 March 2015, 21:08:56 »
Call it a valet, since its job is to assist in the parking of every tank that shows up in Liao space. :)

This might be my favorite comment in a VotW thread since I took over.  ;D
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #9 on: 08 March 2015, 21:23:51 »
How is that no one ever puts a gauss rifle on these things?  Or since it the Dark Age a silver bullet?
Or the clans a HAG.  6/9 HAG40 with about 6 tons of armor seems right for the clans.

Wouldn't these things be more useful if they had a bigger bubble of doom.  Ok, maybe at 15 points it's more a bubble of oh crap than doom.   But since they're probably eating a motive crit anyway, it's a lot harder to avoid them if they shoot twice as far.


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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #10 on: 08 March 2015, 21:26:21 »
How is that no one ever puts a gauss rifle on these things?  Or since it the Dark Age a silver bullet?
Or the clans a HAG.  6/9 HAG40 with about 6 tons of armor seems right for the clans.

Wouldn't these things be more useful if they had a bigger bubble of doom.  Ok, maybe at 15 points it's more a bubble of oh crap than doom.   But since they're probably eating a motive crit anyway, it's a lot harder to avoid them if they shoot twice as far.

An SB is intriguing, I'll admit. But a Gauss? Why bother? This is the same army that already employs two flavors of Regulator, remember.  ^-^
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #11 on: 08 March 2015, 21:36:15 »
Predator is nice looking tank, though admitively i don't find it as cool. Having it a tracked version of the Hetzer is handy.

I actually find myself drawn to the primitive Sturmblitz from XTRO:Primitives 4, which uses same concept and art.  Prototype AC/20 can be hairy, but having Variable Range Targeting is handier specially when you have short range hammer like AC/20 in your one-only gun.

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #12 on: 08 March 2015, 22:00:26 »
This might be my favorite comment in a VotW thread since I took over.  ;D

It's already my term for anything that fights tanks by immobilizing them, it just happens to be the Predator's raison d'etre. :)

Besides, I already have  a better nickname for it: Real Hetzer. 8)

Oh, and if you want to see a perfect example of Predator tactics, watch episode 11 of the anime Girls und Panzer. Armored trolling at its finest. ;D
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #13 on: 08 March 2015, 22:02:03 »
Besides, I already have  a better nickname for it: Real Hetzer. 8)

Oh, and if you want to see a perfect example of Predator tactics, watch episode 11 of the anime Girls und Panzer. Armored trolling at its finest. ;D

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #14 on: 08 March 2015, 22:08:06 »
That Poor JagdPanther, that poor JagdPanther.


Edit: Slightly more on topic, that was classic hidden units ambush.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2015, 22:10:52 by VhenRa »

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #15 on: 08 March 2015, 23:19:35 »
So....has anyone ran a Predator (old one) vs. Hetzer battle? It would have to be urban of course...

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #16 on: 08 March 2015, 23:28:50 »
So....has anyone ran a Predator (old one) vs. Hetzer battle? It would have to be urban of course...

Repeatedly this week. ;)

At the end of the day, the Predator wins. It's armor vs. speed, and armor isn't what gets a tank killed- it's motive hits. The Hetzer can withstand a couple of hits, but as soon as its wheels start suffering from motives life goes to hell for it. The Pred's speed also allows it to find ways to outmaneuver its opponent- if it wins initiative, it can use that speed to try to get out of the Hetzer's firing arc to attack from safety, or if it loses init it can zip somewhere to take cover.

Now, take one solid hit and a Pred comes apart- no crits, no motive hits, just a one-way trip to Valhalla. Even the upgrade model just won't take damage for long. But that speed bonus is a much bigger advantage for the Pred than the armor is for the Hetzer, at the end of the day. Your mileage may vary, but I found that it was rare that Hetzers won the duel, no matter who ran what vehicles.
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #17 on: 08 March 2015, 23:37:16 »
I actually remember first reading 3145: Liao and going. "Hey... isn't this that old Battletechnology design?"

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #18 on: 08 March 2015, 23:45:41 »
I actually remember first reading 3145: Liao and going. "Hey... isn't this that old Battletechnology design?"

Well, that actually brings up a very good point that I ended up leaving out of the article. I believe this came from Battletechnology to begin with- I THINK. However, I couldn't find any evidence of it. Battletechnology is before my time, and I never have seen a copy in person, let alone read through them. So while I've seen references to this being from Battletechnology, without being certain I felt it was best to leave it out of there. If anyone has more info, please let us know.
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #19 on: 08 March 2015, 23:49:43 »
Its in the Battletechnology section of Heavy Metal Vee's vehicle files, IIRC.

Other people can probably find more info.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2015, 23:56:22 by VhenRa »

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #20 on: 09 March 2015, 00:55:06 »
Thanks so much for the article, JHB!

Here's the original Predator which a search found on a weird mirror of my ancient, defunct fansite: http://www.geocities.ws/jymset/BT_Predator.html

Does anyone still play genuine intro level games? Dunno, I always thought it was spectacular that such a fast AC/20 existed in the context. Sure, sure, there's the faster Saladin, but between the Predator carrying an additional ton of armor and using tracks, it felt downright sturdy next to that hovercraft.

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #21 on: 09 March 2015, 01:19:16 »
I'm wondering if it was just the poor armour which led to the Predator falling from grace. Not only does it have poorer combat endurance (with blowing up more of a problem than running low on ammo), it also cost 30% more than the Hetzer did - meaning you could get a company of wheeled budget wonders over just over two lances of speedy glass hammers.

I also find it telling that the encounter in 2974, where the Predator got its behind handed to it, was against armour elements of the 5th Crucis. If there's one thing a lightly armoured tank destroyer can't fight effectively, it's turreted tanks. The Predators would, I suspect, have to spend too much time trying to bring their guns into range and to bear, while the fiendish enemy - with smaller but longer ranged ACs, and LRMs, and maybe the odd PPC - plinked them to death on the way in.

Here's a challenge - Predator vs. Goblin. Both 45 tons. The LL won't give you great range on the AC-20, but the combination of a decent hitter, and two crit-capable SRM-4s, on a well armoured chassis, should IMHO give the win to the plucky Goblin. And let's not start on the LRM-20 Goblin (as long as it gets a reasonably flat field to play on).

Anyone game to Princess some matches up?
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #22 on: 09 March 2015, 02:38:22 »
Sarna lists it as being in issue 0203, along with something called the BTX-7K Battleax

Call it a valet, since its job is to assist in the parking of every tank that shows up in Liao space. :)
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #23 on: 09 March 2015, 03:22:44 »
This little baby could do...things to an APC column if it slips through a defensive line. I mean, my gawd! The PBI inside the mehtul bawkses will be chunky salsa before the Pred is taken down!

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #24 on: 09 March 2015, 08:50:59 »
Wow, i didn't know this was Battletechnology refugee, nice.   I wish the notable pilot was brought along too. ;)
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #25 on: 09 March 2015, 08:56:30 »
An SB is intriguing, I'll admit. But a Gauss? Why bother? This is the same army that already employs two flavors of Regulator, remember.  ^-^

I guess I like the concept of a tank destroyer having light armor, speed, and a high velocity longer ranged gun.  To that end and XL engine and a couple clan ERLL's would be even better.  But really expensive.


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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #26 on: 09 March 2015, 10:35:15 »
Wow, i didn't know this was Battletechnology refugee, nice.   I wish the notable pilot was brought along too. ;)
Really? Toni "the Tiger" was something you wanted to see in canon? ;)

As for why no Gauss Rifle, the LB-X seems a better match because of the cluster rounds. If your job is to smash up enemy vehicles, it makes sense to use a weapon that uses hole-punching power one round and then switch to cluster ammo to seek critical hits against the weakened armor.
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #27 on: 09 March 2015, 20:07:04 »
Nice art, better stats.  Good article too, Hellbie.

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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #28 on: 09 March 2015, 21:23:57 »
The art looks decidedly new, and not like that old magazine.
Was the fansite pic the old original?
That looks a bit like a WW2 Hetzer.^^
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Re: VotW: Predator Tank Destroyer
« Reply #29 on: 10 March 2015, 13:36:57 »
The art looks decidedly new, and not like that old magazine.
Was the fansite pic the old original?
That looks a bit like a WW2 Hetzer.^^

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