VotW: Lamprey Transport Helicopter

[JadeHellbringer]

Apologies first on the late article- Sundays are usually my day to get things finished up for these, and my Sunday was spent on helping sell and move furniture. By the time I got home I was more interested in sleep than helicopters.

But it's a new day, and so let's talk choppers! One of the more amusing units to come from the Mechwarrior clix game was the Lamprey helicopter, which was one of the games' two helicopters that were lifted directly from real-life aircraft (with the Cavalry's remake into the RAH-66 Comanche being the other). The Lamprey was undeniably just the Soviet mainstay Mi-24 'Hind' attack helicopter in miniature form. How would the mighty Hind translate over to Battletech when the MWDA units began making their way to the classic game? This aviation major was very curious- and the results are... well, it's not a Hind. But it's intriguing in its own right.

Built by famed Vandenburg Mechanized Industries of Pinard, in the tattered remnants of the Taurian Concordat, the Lamprey provides a cheap, tough answer to the question 'how will I get my battle armor squad from point A to point B?', and throws in a bit of firepower to boot. This is a task we see performed in modern days by the real Mi-24... well, not battle armor, but for those unfamiliar with the Hind, the job is to use a nose-mounted gatling gun (or twin-barrel cannon depending on the version), along with unguided rockets and anti-tank missiles mounted on the down-turned stub wings, to make life miserable on an enemy- then unload a team of troops to mop up. It's a unique ability that was unheard of when the Hind debuted in the late 1970s, and remains helpful today for military forces all over the globe in untold numbers of hot spots. The Taurians were wise to use the Hind as a spiritual grandfather to their new design, oddly named Lamprey for some reason.

At 30 tons, Lampreys start the show by knowing what they need to do- deliver troops to the field quickly. A 130-class fusion engine is a low-cost but effective start, moving the Lamprey to 9/14. While that's not award-winning stuff, it's plenty faster than most ground-based APCs, and enough to earn high movement modifiers to get the Lamprey in and out quickly while avoiding enemy fire. Experiments by the author in adding fuel cell or XL engines didn't really gain enough to justify the added costs- the Taurians got this right. (Worth noting, the movement also matches the old-school and abundantly common Warrior attack helicopter, and with that and the similar weapons loadout in mind for logistics purposes... well, here's a bit of extra muscle for your air cavalry!). This mirrors its real-life counterpart- the Hind is unusually fast for an attack helicopter, though the stub-wings make its hovering abilities somewhat lacking- a Hind tends to make high-speed passes like a fighter jet rather than pop-up hover attacks like the Apache does.

The Hind is famously tough, armored to take a ferocious pounding- the canopy glass even is proofed against most small arms fire. That level of toughness might not be matched by the Lamprey (due to the construction rules), but it's no slouch either. In fact, bring extra guns if you're facing Lampreys- you'll need them. Five and a half tons of Starslab armor give the Lamprey protection that many tanks and Mechs in this weight bracket dream of. The nose has 30 points, enough to withstand a pair of Gauss hits and keep flying- that's incredible stuff. The sides can withstand the VotW test cannon with 20 points each, and even the rear has 16 points of protection. Astonishing, really- Lampreys take work to kill. Of course, the rotor has only two points as usual, but what do you do, right?

Here's where we really depart from the Hind. Hinds, as mentioned earlier, are armed with everything shy of the kitchen sink. A standard loadout consists of the nose gun (either a multi-barrel 12.7mm in a chin turret or twin-barrel 23mm fixed to the side of the nose), and wing-mounted AT-6 anti-tank missiles, unguided rocket pods, all the things to make someone miserable. The Lamprey... well... not so much. That nose mount is a standard machine gun, fed by half a ton of ammunition- handy for clearing an LZ of infantry, no doubt. The wings each support a fore-mounted SRM-4, sharing a ton of ammo. Not a bad way to tell lightly armored targets to go away. It pales compared to the juggernaut a Hind throws at real-life targets, but this is a handy, if lightweight, loadout for the Lamprey.

Where the Lamprey makes up for the lack of guns compared to its grandfather is the internal space. While the troop capacity varies depending on the loadout of the troops and such, Hinds are designed to carry eight loaded-up troops. Nothing bad about that- but the Lamprey shows up with... well, a four ton bay, enough to carry a full platoon of troops- or four battle armor troopers. Four troopers can make for a seriously unpleasant surprise, as the Taurian military showed off on Brockway against a lax pirate force. With the Lamprey being apparently used by at least Republic forces along with the Taurians (and likely others as well), the kind of battle armor in your Lamprey can make for some fascinating setups. Sadly, the chances of Lampreys serving with FedSun-built armor like Hauberks or Centaurs are unlikely (Centaurs would be AWESOME), but there's no shortage of nasty tricks one can pull with four tons of cargo space, particularly on a quick and hard-to-kill platform spitting SRMs at you in reply.

No variants exist (despite some obvious upgrades to make), so that'll end our look at the Lamprey. Thoughts? Stories? Musings? Go for it.

[Alan Grant]

Good article!

I strangely didn't think of the Hind when I saw the Lamprey in the TRO. I thought of the Sikorsky H-19 and H-34 helicopters, the original troop transport helicopters. But I see it now, with the cockpit design and wings. In particular that mini...yeah definitely looks like a Hind.

I like the armor on this thing a lot. I like utility/transport helicopters that can take some serious hits and keep flying.

In addition to BA this thing would be great for jump infantry platoons, which are likely to be more common in the periphery than BA.

If I could change something I would just make those SRM tubes MML tubes. Just for the diversity of ammo type. But the Lamprey really isn't a gunship, despite the obvious Hind tie-in, it's a utility and transport chopper with some decent SRM punch. The MG on this thing is almost just an excuse to give the flight crew a chance to shoot a MG, they'd have to get closer to use it than most operational parameters would allow (unless they were sitting on a hot LZ).

If you want to see a bird that tried to mimic the Hind's capabilities look to the Pinto. Whether the standard one or the WoB variant. In terms of capabilities I think the Pinto is a lot closer to the Hind, it can carry a squad but it has a lot of firepower for a troop transport VTOL. But obviously not every faction has the Pinto. I think at one point it was established that they were still building them on Terra but that doesn't help the Taurians much.

I wouldn't mind seeing an official variant that turns the Lamprey into a true gunship, just swapping out the 4 ton infantry bay for more firepower. Call it a "Gunship" variant or something. Then you could easily have troop transport Lampreys and gunship Lampreys serving together.

[JadeHellbringer]

Yeah, the TRO art definitely wandered from the mini (not the worst thing in the world, mind you), but the mini? No question. And really, it's as close to a Hind as one can create using TechManual- any more guns and you have to start skimping on armor and such. I did experiment with an XL engine to get weight for some rocket packs, but the price was enormous comparatively for little real improvement.

(Being a huge fan of the Hind since a very young age, when the unique looks fascinated me, I fell in love with the Lamprey immediately upon seeing the mini!)

[Baron RedSkull]

I think the weapons load out is just fine for it's intended objective: Strafe the LZ, drop the troops, and get out. This plan works even better if using jump infantry or jump capable BA since the Lamprey doesn't have to land. Because it suffers from the fragile rotary that all VTOL's do, It's not going to be hanging around unless your opponent has more important things to shoot at. The only other situation I would entertain is if I was playing on a canyon or city map and there were ample places for my Lamprey to stay low and hidden until it can pop out from around a corner, take it's shots, then fade back into hiding until another opportunity present's itself itself. I look forward to adding a couple to my Taurian force.

[Weirdo]

I want to get four of these for my Marians, fill 'em with  a full Maniple of jump troops, and round out the air Century with some kind of attack bird like the Warrior. I'd normally load at least one with smoke missiles to cover the LZ, but in this case I think I'd go Inferno, because Caesar says burn... }:)

[JadeHellbringer]

I want to get four of these for my Marians, fill 'em with  a full Maniple of jump troops, and round out the air Century with some kind of attack bird like the Warrior. I'd normally load at least one with smoke missiles to cover the LZ, but in this case I think I'd go Inferno, because Caesar says burn... }:)

Hey, that makes smoke, it's a valid tactic!

I think that's one of the few things that I would have liked on the Lamprey though- the missiles are good at hitting lightly armored targets, but twin LRM-5s would have allowed me to lay down smoke (or standard rounds, or even mines!) at a distance where I'm not getting pelted by as much return fire from the LZ. The downside is that if the enemy does pop up while I'm unloading, I'm stuck with an MG and fervent prayer to protect me, because the missiles are useless now. (Reinforcing the need for having a Warrior or something like that along to help out!)

[Weirdo]

Much as I love the  idea of LRMs on a transport for just that purpose(see my comments in the Cardinal thread), I prefer the SRMs here. They reinforce the Lamprey's secondary role of heavily armored attack chopper.

[Alan Grant]

In the real world environment that a Hind faces, every main gun on every tank or combat vehicle isn't well suited for shooting at VTOLs. Imagine an Abrams tank trying to shoot down a helicopter with its main gun. But in BT, they can do exactly that, and all that matters is the to-hit modifiers.

So to get into range to use the SRMs, the VTOL would be putting itself in extreme jeopardy of every mech and vee pointing their barrels upward.

If the VTOL is doing this SRM run as part of a landing/pickup of troops, that's one thing, it can't be avoided, might as well try to blast something. But if it's making purely attack runs on well-armed targets, then longer reach is preferred so the VTOL is harder to hit.

That's why a lot of the VTOL lovers around here love the old H-7 Warrior, for that plinking autocannon. Piss off everybody at long range and due to range and speed they just can't shoot down the Warrior easily. It's also why the Yellow Jacket and Hawk Moth are appreciated, long range firepower, aerial snipers.

With the way BT works, with aerial gunships, success comes with long range firepower.

Because of that....I just can't call this a proper gunship as-is. It wants to be, but it isn't. Unless you manage to find a weak target off by its lonesome.

[Weirdo]

Unless you manage to find a weak target off by its lonesome.

No worries, then. Aero  players like me have to learn this skill on day one, because operating any kind of ASF any other way is suicide, pure and simple. :)

[Dragon Cat]

Nice article

Can't disagree with the VTOL's capabilities.  One thing that annoys me about it is the lack of taking advantage of the built in Heat Sinks from the fusion I'd say you're right the Fusion is the way to go but the weapons don't make best use of it.

Personally I'd have been tempted to a pair of ER Mediums or pair of Medium Pulse Lasers with smaller SRM launchers or common as muck Rockets as back up considering its Periphery built they'd be right up the VTOL's street

[Liam's Ghost]

On the subject of whether or not the Lamprey can properly emulate the Hind, might the external ordnance rules, which can be applied to VTOLs as an optional rule, apply? Another sixty rockets is nothing to sneeze at.

[JadeHellbringer]

On the subject of whether or not the Lamprey can properly emulate the Hind, might the external ordnance rules, which can be applied to VTOLs as an optional rule, apply? Another sixty rockets is nothing to sneeze at.

Entirely possible, but the penalty to speed isn't worth it to me- that's time to bring the escort helo to do the job!

At the end of the day, this thing delivers infantry to the field and fires a few SRMs along the way- anything that hinders that task ain't worth it.

[Natasha Kerensky]

And really, it's as close to a Hind as one can create using TechManual- any more guns and you have to start skimping on armor and such.

I wonder if it could be done with the support vehicle construction rules in TM.  It would be interesting to try to recreate the Hind as a 40-, 50-, or 60-ton VTOL, maybe with a RAC/2 and a boatload of MML tubes and RL-10s.

Regardless, at 23 metric tons (or 25 short tons) gross mass, the Hind weighs less than the Lamprey, which certainly demonstrates the inefficiency of 32nd century Taurian technology compared to 20th century Soviet technology.

[Liam's Ghost]

Regardless, at 23 metric tons (or 25 short tons) gross mass, the Hind weighs less than the Lamprey, which certainly demonstrates the inefficiency of 32nd century Taurian technology compared to 20th century Soviet technology.

I... I want to argue, but it's so off topic...

[Kojak]

I think the weapons load out is just fine for it's intended objective: Strafe the LZ, drop the troops, and get out. This plan works even better if using jump infantry or jump capable BA since the Lamprey doesn't have to land. Because it suffers from the fragile rotary that all VTOL's do, It's not going to be hanging around unless your opponent has more important things to shoot at. The only other situation I would entertain is if I was playing on a canyon or city map and there were ample places for my Lamprey to stay low and hidden until it can pop out from around a corner, take it's shots, then fade back into hiding until another opportunity present's itself itself. I look forward to adding a couple to my Taurian force.

The only downside I see to the Lamprey is that if you're using it as a BA transport, at least if we're talking the TDF, it will probably have to land to drop off its cargo, since the two main battlesuits used by the TDF are the Asterion and Marauder, neither of which jump.

[Weirdo]

I... I want to argue, but it's so off topic...

You're doing the right thing, dude. O0

[JadeHellbringer]

The only downside I see to the Lamprey is that if you're using it as a BA transport, at least if we're talking the TDF, it will probably have to land to drop off its cargo, since the two main battlesuits used by the TDF are the Asterion and Marauder, neither of which jump.

I've always sort of assumed they had the IS Standard, at least, but yeah, that's a good point. Reinforcing yet again that sending them in without backup air support from something like the Warrior or at the very least another Lamprey waiting its turn to drop the kids off, you're probably in some trouble.

(Also, I forgot all about the Marauder.)

[Liam's Ghost]

The only downside I see to the Lamprey is that if you're using it as a BA transport, at least if we're talking the TDF, it will probably have to land to drop off its cargo, since the two main battlesuits used by the TDF are the Asterion and Marauder, neither of which jump.

I assume the Asterion is probably the typical airmobile suit. Marauders are for riding plainsmen or J Edgars into battle. Or Marauders.

[Kojak]

Honestly, I suspect that the Lamprey was a result of TDF commanders complaining about the fragility of their other standard APC, the Maultier (Fusion). While the Lamprey is a little slower than its ground-bound counterpart (9/14 vs 10/15), it has half-again as much armor, way more firepower and can fly right over the sorts of terrain obstacles that would greatly impede a Maultier's progress. Of course, were I a TDF infantry commander, I'd be inclined to use both in concert...

[Deadborder]

The Lamprey is the best thing ever to come out of the TC. I'll let you decide what to make of that statement.

Questionable statements aside, it is a good design. It's solid and does what it's supposed to, which is deliver a BA squad to the battlefield and provide harassment/support afterwards. It can take a hit (rotor crits aside) and keep going without falling out of the sky. Really my only complaint is that a LMG might have been a better choice for the range, but that's nitpicking.

I also find ir amusing that the Lamprey could have existed in 3025. That says a lot about the TC there and then.

I've had a lot of luck using the Lamprey, but as said, it works best with jump-capable BA. It is the sort of unit that would be great for merc commands as a reasonably cheap hauler. Given that it's also availible to the FWLM, I want to try pairing it with the Redhawk too.

Finally, much like the OP, I'm a huge fan of the Mi-24 Hind, which meant that I was really looking forward to seeing this thing in TRO form. I was rather happy with the result

[JadeHellbringer]

I'll actually defend the 3025 tech on two grounds:

1) The Taurians haven't had a good time since... what, 3066-ish. A look at the map tells you the story, but this is a nation that has had its ass handed to it on a platter repeatedly over the years- a costly long-term war with the Federated Suns, a portion of the nation splitting off to form its own path (Protectorate), multiple worlds leaving for one reason or another post-Jihad, the failure of the Trinity Alliance (at least when it came to the Concordat)... military spending can't be a huge thing for them right now. The kind of gear they were able to justify getting while they were in bed with the Capellans? Not likely these days. So, stick with cheap, easy to build, easier to maintain gear. At the end of the day, this is a troop truck- why put more money and tech into it than it really needs? What really improves this thing when you go to more recent tech levels?

2) What does a nation reeling from over half a century of bad times need? Cash flow. We know the Lamprey is used by the Republic of the Sphere (and the assorted breakaway factions within) at the very least- and it's a safe bet that with its rugged abilities and low price that it's caught on with other factions needing cheap troop transport as well, ranging from Successor States (Davions need not apply, I'm sure) to mercenaries to Marik proto-states... hell, even Clans might find it intriguing. The cheaper it is, the more likely it finds audiences.

[Liam's Ghost]

The only "new tech" upgrade I'd really want for something like this is maybe a light machinegun in place of the standard. As Jadehellbringer says, it does its job just fine without new toys.

Whether or not the Taurian Concordat sucks seems off topic.

[Deadborder]

Don't get me wrong; I actually like the 3025 tech in the Lamprey. And like Liams Ghost, I can't think of any good upgrades

[Liam's Ghost]

Don't get me wrong; I actually like the 3025 tech in the Lamprey. And like Liams Ghost, I can't think of any good upgrades

It's one of the few designs that does its job without indulging in new toy syndrome. The Inner Sphere needs more of this stuff without having to dig into mothball yards.

[Fat Guy]

One of the more amusing units to come from the Mechwarrior clix game was the Lamprey helicopter, which was one of the games' two helicopters that were lifted directly from real-life aircraft (with the Cavalry's remake into the RAH-66 Comanche being the other).

You forgot the Balac Strike VTOL, which was a pretty blatant copy of the A 129 Mangusta.





BTW, operationally Hinds pretty much never carried troops due to weight issues. They're basically used as pure gunships.

[Liam's Ghost]

My first though looking at that is these. Especially with the bent tip on the end of each rotor.

Of course those old toys could have also been based on the Mangusta.

[glitterboy2098]

BTW, operationally Hinds pretty much never carried troops due to weight issues. They're basically used as pure gunships.

actually the russians have used them extensively in military search and rescue roles, and i suspect that they were used for inserting special forces.
and they DID deploy them with troops early in their invasion of afghanistan, but the main reason for stopping wasn't weight (the aircraft itself could handle it, especially the Hind-E's that came out in '76 with the stronger engines) but rather operational.. the pilots had trouble performing their ground attack role with troops on board causing distraction and worry when under fire, and trying to do both troop insertion and ground attack in the same mission left the aircraft increasingly vulnerable. there was some issues with weight, but it wasn't a general issue with the Hind, so much as the fact the russian bases were located in the higher altitudes, and the accordingly reduced performance in the thinner air meant a narrower weight margin for loadouts. this was a concern for all the russian helicopters, the hind's just felt it more due to their heavier load of munitions than the mainly troop carrying Hip's..

however it did become a standard to carry a technician or a couple troops, who usually kept watch on the sides and rear (the rear especially since it had poor awareness there), and they started fitting light machineguns in door mounts for those passengers to help defend the aircraft.

[Nebfer]

I wonder if it could be done with the support vehicle construction rules in TM.  It would be interesting to try to recreate the Hind as a 40-, 50-, or 60-ton VTOL, maybe with a RAC/2 and a boatload of MML tubes and RL-10s.

Regardless, at 23 metric tons (or 25 short tons) gross mass, the Hind weighs less than the Lamprey, which certainly demonstrates the inefficiency of 32nd century Taurian technology compared to 20th century Soviet technology.

Err your mixing up the units, a Mil-24 Hind has a max take off weight of around 12,000 kilograms (of which only 2.5 tons is payload, including passengers, sans fuel (another ~1.4 tons for ~1,000km of range one way)), a Lamprey carrying external cargo is 5 times heavier. Also keep in mind that a Hind only has one built in weapons system the rotary MG or 30mm cannons, the rest is external ordnance, despite their looks the SRM pods on the Lamprey are actually built into the unit.

B-tech "ground" vehicles can carry their own weight in cargo, which would make B-tech VTOLs a bit odd their slower than real world VTOLs but can carry a lot more payload, which would imply that they have a lot more thrust than their speeds would other wise imply...

But thats about what I will say about that in this thread.

[Colt Ward]

I have liked this for a while . . . now the question is, are the various Lampreys in MWDA sets have very different stats?  I have a few of the Steel Wolf Lampreys, maybe others but I do not know . . . and so I am wondering if the game had variants between the versions.

After looking . . . they are all ballistic armed, Green Republic's Lamprey has some special armor buff & is more rugged, the Green Bannson's is faster but has slightly weaker armor/structure & something special for movement, Vet Steel Wolf has a special attack with more range (SSRMs?) & slightly faster, and the Elite Highlander's is a lot like the Republic Lamprey- probably the green/elite division.  Finally you have the Green named Spirit Cat, which has much the same stats as the Highlander Lamprey without the armor special, but only does one damage with some special ability with tougher structure.

The only adjustment I could see would be the Steel Wolf Lamprey mounts Clan SSRMs as some factional flavor.  Different armor types between the factions could be very interesting but they would likely be after market mods just like the Steel Wolf Clan SSRMs.

Like others have said I would like to see the heatsinks used, a ERML would pack a punch at some range but perhaps a SPL might work better.  Then I could also see some great after-market mods on the merc market . . . HFF armor, engine upgrade, jet boosters, MMLs, and energy weapons.  I think this is a design that just screams for your own techs to tinker with to make it even more of a monster.

If I am hitting a harder target as part of a air mobile op, even with Warriors on escort I would like to have the RL pods slung.  You do not need a full load, but having that extra one shot punch as you hit the target to drop the jump troops, JJ equipped BA or ziplined BA then it can be enough to rock the opposition onto their heels.

Heck, I cannot believe Weirdo did not offer the zipline for the Asterions!

[Kojak]

Hey, yeah, that's a really good point, I could definitely see Asterion zipline deployment being standard doctrine with TDF Lampreys.