Author Topic: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank  (Read 11425 times)

JadeHellbringer

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VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« on: 17 August 2015, 18:54:12 »

"The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!"

I didn't get a chance to finish my article up on Sunday as I normally do, so the last touches were to be done this evening and then posted a day late... Unfortunately, a thread was started a few hours before I got home about that very unit, the Yellow Jacket. Please, I beg of you, if you request a unit, LET ME COVER IT. So that article had to get scrapped for now, to my dismay/irritation. You're stuck with this instead- not that this is any poor consolation prize.

The Defense is a tank that first appeared in the MW:Dark Age game, but oddly one that never came through the author's arsenal- despite having collected since early in the game's release cycle, no Defense ever came from a booster to my army, for any faction. As such, I actually had never heard of it until the TRO came out- and was surprised to find out that this had existed for all these years. Who knew?

Anyway. Let's talk anti-aircraft weaponry. There's no doubt that the marauding aerospace fighter is one of the most dangerous forces on the battlefield. A well-placed brace of bombs, a well-timed strafing run, and a battle can change from pitched struggle to total rout in no time. It goes without saying, then, that removing that threat is important. We've had dedicated AA units around since the earliest days of Battletech, with the Rifleman and Jagermech, or if you're using vehicles the Partisan... and in the Dark Age, we've had new additions like the Aesir and the neo-Partisan. But something to note about these tanks is that they're reliant on terrain being to their advantage. Even the most minor creek can stop a platoon of Partisans in their tracks, and if they need to get to the other side one must find a bridge- and those are both hard to find sometimes, and always difficult to cross- they make for natural choke points and ambush sites. Nothing sucks more than hearing demo charges go off on the bridge supports while your tanks are halfway across, after all. So Michaelson Heavy Industries came up with the Defense- and the RAF and AFFS have been rather happy ever since. (Or as happy as the AFFS gets these days anyway)

The Defense starts with a fusion power plant, giving the tank a fairly ho-hum 4/6 movement curve. That's nothing to sneeze at per se, but it does mean that the Defense isn't going to keep up with lightning assaults- and may struggle to retreat if needed. We do find that the engine is an XL fusion plant, which is quite welcome- although the heat sinks go to waste (aw), the Defense doesn't need to be tied to fuel lines, and the engine is so lightweight that we can save room for other tricks- comparing the Defense to older tanks in its weight bracket like the Manticore or Zhukov, it looks pretty impressive thanks to that saved weight. The other important motive system we find here is that the tracked beast has limited amphibious equipment, allowing the Defense to putter across modest water obstacles and keep up with Battlemechs wading across- no small bit of importance in this era of combined-arms warfare! This really is what sets the Defense apart from the competition- if you think you'll deal with a lot of water, such as the infamous River Delta mapsheets, it's a great advantage to the vehicle. If you're out in the open tundra or desert, it's not all that helpful- and you may be better off with a Partisan.

One of the problems to being an AA vehicle is that your job means you're public enemy #1 to the enemy aircraft you're hunting- they want rid of you so they can continue their air support role in relative peace, so you're going to be a priority to kill. As such, you need to be able to survive long enough to hit those fighters harder than they hit you. Well, we're not dodging much fire with that pedestrian movement, so we need to be able to take a hit or two. The Defense is well-named in this regard, with eight and a half tons of heavy ferro plating, backed by CASE. 44 points means our AC-20 test is easily stymied by even two shots, while the sides (31) and rear (37) don't mind much either- interesting to note that the Defense is one of the rare vehicles in which the rear is tougher than the sides! The turret has a surprisingly thin 25 points- with the main weapons located there, that's a surprise.

As for those weapons, Zhukov fans will find the Defense familiar- a pair of class-10 cannons in the turret. Of course, the Defense is an AA vehicle, and as such it goes for the author's favorite Battletech weapon system- the LB-10X. Two of these monsters are parked in the aft-mounted turret, giving the Defense the ability to engage targets in any arc of approach. Four tons of ammo give you staying power, and probably should be devoted at all times to cluster ammo considering the role. If you're not familiar with how LBX shots work on fighters, you're not doing damage to the armor- you're sandblasting off the control surfaces that allow the fighter to fly. That'll suck. Compared to the Aesir's smaller guns these pack a hefty punch in that regard, sending a whole mess of shot into the sky. Backing up the autocannons are a trio of light machine guns, all mounted in the prominently-jutting nose of the vehicle. Fed by half a ton of ammo, it is surprising that these guns didn't get an array added to them. Handy in case of infantry ambush, but moving a couple of them to the side arcs would be helpful. You also have the heat sinks to swap the LMGs and ammo for a couple of flamers, if you prefer your infantry roasted instead of pureed.

It's simple. If you worry about enemy aircraft, and you have smaller bodies of water to deal with in your operation, this is a must-have. If you lack both of those things, it's still a great unit for making enemy vehicles miserable with those clusterguns. This is an incredibly important tank, one that serves in at least modest numbers in most Inner Sphere armies at this point, and you should consider having a couple of them along in any operation you plan in this new and terrifying era. It really is a gem- simple, but effective.

You know what to do- see you all next week for a bit meatier of an article!
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glitterboy2098

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #1 on: 17 August 2015, 19:07:24 »
design seems pretty nice.. dual LB10X is good for slapping down both airborne and ground bound targets. the machineguns are a bit odd, but Infantry is more common post-jihad thanks to a re-emphasis on combined arms, so not too bad. i'd have gone with a small Pulse laser though.. which gives you both anti-infantry and anti-battlearmor options, plus makes use of those heatsinks.

but whats up with that art? the treads and the hull look like they were drawn at two different angles.

edit: and a quick google search shows why.. this is a 'three' tread tank. weird.
« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 19:12:03 by glitterboy2098 »

Fallen_Raven

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #2 on: 17 August 2015, 19:10:27 »
I've got to say, this is a wonderful tank. You aren't winning prizes for originality, but two LB-Xs and a healthy supply of armor is always a good plan. Sprinkle in a dash of anti-infantry and garnish with amphibious capabilities, and you're ready to serve up a very respectable defense.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #3 on: 17 August 2015, 20:02:39 »
I want to take this into a city. Close-range to-hit mods, fire those guns on Called High shots...and murder things. >:D
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #4 on: 17 August 2015, 20:18:20 »
I want to take this into a city. Close-range to-hit mods, fire those guns on Called High shots...and murder things. >:D

Somehow I figured I'd be seeing you very quickly in this thread.  ;D
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #5 on: 17 August 2015, 20:29:20 »
I am just wondering what is with that art, it appears to be cut from two different images- the treads & gun barrels being one and the body another.

With that said, the tank is definitely solid . . . I think the LMG cluster is a bit disappointing considering the heat sinks available, and I might wish a bit more armor on the turret.  I wonder if it is offered in a non-amphib option?  What would be done with the freed up tonnage?

Is this mercenary available?  If so, I could see this being used as a line unit, replacing Zhuk and Po in mercenary formations if they were more available.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #6 on: 17 August 2015, 20:32:03 »
You gain back 2.5 tons losing the amphib gear... strip the LMGs, gain a couple of small pulse lasers (or flamers, dammit!), an AMS with a ton of ammo, and a ton of armor to slap on the turret?
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #7 on: 17 August 2015, 20:39:15 »
Sounds like a survivable non-amphib option for the merc market.

I would also expect to see it pressed into a MBT role on a wet world . . . mixing in some slugs to cross water next to mechs in a assault or defense would be more useful than that Zhuk or Po stuck behind water barriers.
« Last Edit: 17 August 2015, 21:03:04 by Colt Ward »
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #8 on: 17 August 2015, 20:41:28 »
Amphibious seems to be MHI's thing in ground vehicles. I guess this is because the MHI vehicle series was introduced in MW: AOD at the same time the amphibious trait was.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #9 on: 17 August 2015, 20:46:38 »
Okay, I'm taking responsibility for this one here. As with the Partisan AA truck, the DA mini came with a number of predetermined factors (weight, speed) and imposed a number of points which had to be addressed, specifically:

1) Two cannons
2) Three lumps on the bow
3) The look of the hull

The guns were more or less automatic - the tank was too big for LB-5Xs to be an option, and the Partisan AA had them anyway. The three lumps could have been an MML-3, but ... why?

I rationalised the LMGs as being for PBI suppression as it crawled its way up a beach or riverbank. In that role, it "made sense" of their positioning.

And the amphib - well, the shape of the hull just suggested it. By giving the Defense the limited amphib, it gave it a role which I hadn't seen in any other unit.

The Defense also plays the "Shilka" option - AA tanks are great in infantry support.  The amphibious landings in IIRC "Endgame" were very much in my mind - these are both mobile AA and fire suppression units for such situations. And at the end of the day, 2.5 tons for some flavour didn't seem a stretch, given the lack of any visible cool gear.

Yes, C3, TCs, and ECM could have been options - but TCs are wasted on LB-10Xs IMHO, C3's covered with tracked Partisans, and ... I just felt like it ;)

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #10 on: 17 August 2015, 20:59:24 »
edit: and a quick google search shows why.. this is a 'three' tread tank. weird.

Looks like there's more than a few of us who were confused by the treads...

If you check out brick commander it looks like its not even three treads, but four: http://www.brickcommander.com/MWDA-MHI-AA-Tank.htm
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #11 on: 17 August 2015, 21:01:24 »
The front tread could easily be two separate tracks, based on the mini. Bizzare, but ...
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #12 on: 17 August 2015, 21:11:43 »
Somehow I figured I'd be seeing you very quickly in this thread.  ;D

It's nice vs 'mechs, utter murder on everything else, and has a weird quirk. You expected anyone else? :)


Hmm...I wonder how this thing would perform as an impromptu river gunboat? I wanna get a mini, paint it up like a thirty-year-old redneck RV, and call it the Swamp Cooler.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #13 on: 17 August 2015, 21:19:34 »
worktroll . . . totally in favor of the way it is, I like it.  Just wondering if there would be a lower cost option with out it.  Not that money typically matters in BT.

Now we need Marion's Swamp Foxes, which use these as a MBT along with Prowlers(?) for APCs of BA . . . and maybe some Undines.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #14 on: 17 August 2015, 21:22:13 »
Looks like there's more than a few of us who were confused by the treads...

If you check out brick commander it looks like its not even three treads, but four: http://www.brickcommander.com/MWDA-MHI-AA-Tank.htm

He's right- I was just discussing this with cavingjan (who I regard as the final word in Dark Age trivia), and he confirmed- a tread on each side as easily visible in the art, and two more side by side mounted 'forward' to form a sort of front tricycle wheel. No idea what good that would really be as a design, but I don't work for MHI.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #15 on: 17 August 2015, 22:06:21 »
Little known fact: the MIH Defense AA Tank was descended from an obscure Terran vehicle from the late 20th Century.  ;D
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #16 on: 18 August 2015, 02:16:30 »
Does anyone have a list of amphib vehicles?  What besides mechs could the Defense end up supporting when it wades ashore?
Colt Ward
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #17 on: 18 August 2015, 04:23:56 »
Little known fact: the MIH Defense AA Tank was descended from an obscure Terran vehicle from the late 20th Century.  ;D

*stare*

Well... now you all know who to blame when the Defense gets declared an unseen. Thanks Ogre. ;)

nah, i mean it's distinctive on its own, but that's clearly a spiritual predecessor, at least. Good call!
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #18 on: 18 August 2015, 05:19:29 »
A meaty, simple but effective design (with odd art, I can see the artists was going for some kind of 'looking at it at an angle' kind of view but it just don't work.) and a nice write up too! :) Thanks for the review of this flakka-dakka!
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #19 on: 18 August 2015, 08:12:17 »
Does anyone have a list of amphib vehicles?  What besides mechs could the Defense end up supporting when it wades ashore?
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #20 on: 18 August 2015, 08:39:11 »
MHI APCs, Prowlers, Phalanxes, Snipers, plus any hover or WiGE units attached to your group...

Don't forget Gurteltiers! Not amphibious technically, but water flees out of the way in terror. Handy hidden feature.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #21 on: 18 August 2015, 08:53:11 »
Ah, good.  Now I don't have to write this article.

The MHI Defense has the advantage of being the most easily integrated into non AA duty of all the 3145 dedicated AA platforms.  The lack of a minimum range also makes it ideal for stacking in the same hex and keeping those pesky Mantis, Cavalry and Red Kits off your back plating.  That is how I see the MHI Defense working best, stacked in the same hex as potential targets for airborne attack.  That way you have an area of denial for VTOLs that has no minimum range, double stack so APCs can't fly in an drop off battle armor, and be able to target any aerospace fighters making a run at the target.

But the armor profile of the MHI Defense worries me.  Outside of CPD I don't like it as a front line combatant.  Better to use it to finish off units that are already hurt.  For this, i'd follow the Hetzer school of "by the time you see me it is already too late".  Unless, of course, you play with Hull Down.  At which point, find a hill and enjoy your double barreled shotgun or swivel turret doom.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #22 on: 18 August 2015, 10:40:32 »
Despite the very legitimate armor concerns, I've been fielding the MHI Defense as a front line unit. All those tasty crit seekers are begging to be fielded along side all those Heavy PPC-totting 'Mechs in the RAF stable. Unlike the Kinnol, you have to hold the MHI Defense back until targets are softened. Whether it's worth it to bring forces to the table that you have to withhold for a few rounds or have them face quick 'splodie demises is entirely up to you. However, this tank had me at "amphibious dual LB 10-X ACs".

MHI APCs, Prowlers, Phalanxes, Snipers, plus any hover or WiGE units attached to your group...
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #23 on: 18 August 2015, 10:53:43 »
The armor isn't bad on a number of other weapon configs.  The problem is, the MHIDef suffers from "Bandersnatch syndrome" in that pretty much everyone hates LB-10Xs for one reason or another.  It will attract a disproportionate amount of attention as a result.  The armor is ok, but not every ERPPC on the field ok.  I suppose you could use that to your advantage and free up other units from that attention.  Maybe keep the MHIDef at 16-18 hexes, outiside of most medium ranges and draw fire.

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #24 on: 18 August 2015, 12:28:22 »
He's right- I was just discussing this with cavingjan (who I regard as the final word in Dark Age trivia), and he confirmed- a tread on each side as easily visible in the art, and two more side by side mounted 'forward' to form a sort of front tricycle wheel. No idea what good that would really be as a design, but I don't work for MHI.

So their drivers can do this?

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #25 on: 18 August 2015, 15:01:36 »
This is a really nice tank.  I had to face lance of these things perched on some high ridges.  They did number on my combined Arms Drac force, with my mechs going down first as their tried to kill my opponent's light mechs force.  My Armor unit consisting of a pair of Narukami tanks with Sekhmet Assault Vehicle and VTOL.  Though Narukamis held out little bit long, they were all ended upbeing cripple despite us using the TacOp's Vehicle Efficiency rules.

Thanks for the write up, Jadehellbringer.
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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #26 on: 18 August 2015, 15:03:00 »
The art for this one; looking almost photoshopped-together from a drawn upper hull and what looks like the treads of a later 1940s APC or light tank, really added to my distaste for the style of the dark age as it's been presented to us.

Other artwork seemed almost masterfully done; this seemed more like a rush job.
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Kidd

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #27 on: 18 August 2015, 15:53:44 »
The art for this one; looking almost photoshopped-together from a drawn upper hull and what looks like the treads of a later 1940s APC or light tank, really added to my distaste for the style of the dark age as it's been presented to us.

Other artwork seemed almost masterfully done; this seemed more like a rush job.
Don't know his real name, but jsn tends to do really awesome Mechs (Hatamoto-Suna, Tenshi!) and really atrocious tanks (Narukami, Trajan!).

Scotty

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #28 on: 18 August 2015, 20:32:10 »
I'm not particularly enamored with the side armor being thinner than the rear armor.  Yes yes, everyone knows that backstabbing hurts, but the primary reason to backstab is to get out of arc of main guns.  Since these guns are on a turret, that imperative is no longer valid, and you generally want to go for the most vulnerable part of the target.  On most tanks that's, once again, the back.  But there's a genuine advantage to funneling enemies toward that part of you, and not the sides.  First, it's harder to hit the back than the sides.  A lot harder.  Second, your opponent gets a better chance to immobilize you from the side than from the rear.  On a tracked tank, that +2 turns a total immobilization from a 12 to 10+, and I'm not a big fan of those odds on anything.
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Colt Ward

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Re: VotW: MHI Defense AA Tank
« Reply #29 on: 18 August 2015, 20:54:02 »
But it is not primarily designed to fight other armor or mechs.  Its designed to fight the enemy air . . . which means turn the nose into them, which could result in something that overflew the Defense getting in some shots with rear facing weapons.
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