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Author Topic: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III  (Read 9713 times)

marauder648

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Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« on: 11 April 2016, 10:42:57 »
Class - Leviathan III Class Battleship
Length - 1623 Meters
Displacement - 2,400,000 tonnes
Crew compliment - 1215

When people saw this in the back of XTRO Republic III I think the reactions were a mixture of excited squee’s, rapid underwear changes and exclamations of concern and ‘how!?’  I’ll say it here and now that the Leviathan III is in my opinion both Deus Ex-Machina (quite literally) and is in essence broken.  There’s NOTHING that you can put in the ring against the Leviathan III save the Leviathan II that would last long in a fight.  The Leviathan III can make anything it looks at suffer a critical existence failure very quickly indeed.  But lore wise, it’s an interesting beast and that’s what I’m going to be looking at.

Background.

With their love of all things big and impressive it was only really natural that Clan Ghost Bear would build and design the biggest Warship in known space yet even the resource rich Bear’s had issues with the design, a case of their eyes being too big for their bellies, and they had to turn to their long term allies Clan Snow Raven to give the project the shove it needed.

It seems that the Leviathans were to lead the charge into the Inner Sphere in Operation REVIVAL when the Raven’s didn’t get a place in the line-up for REVIVAL but the Bear’s did the Raven’s support for the construction of the two Leviathan class hulls waned and when it was obvious there was no Warship threat from the Houses, construction was halted completely and the two hulls were left to hang in space gathering dust.

It took the intervention of Khan Bjorn Jorgensson to get the project restarted but even then it was at low priority.  This changed after the Battle of Tukayyid where the Bear’s decided to relocate their population, every last member of the Clan into their Invasion Corridor.  Now the Leviathans picked up pace, and whilst they were superficially complete and to an observer bristled with guns, they lacked most of their heavy weapon mounts and thick armour, instead they were completed as massive armed transports, Carracks on steroids.  With their staggeringly huge cargo space 322,930 tonnes was used to carry factories, parts and people from the Homeworld’s to their new home in the Inner Sphere.

Eventually, the Leviathan and Great Bear would be joined by a third of the class the CGB Rasalhague and these would be either rebuilt or completed as the class that is now called the Leviathan II.  Instead of armed transports they were fully armed and operational battleships and the massive ships served Clan Ghost Bear well in the wars that followed, but even their massive size and firepower was simply not enough and both the Leviathan and Great Bear were lost in combat, one to massed warships, the other to a nuclear attack.

The Bears, now Ghost Bear Dominion’s naval strength was further reduced by fighting with the Draconis Combine as well as Clan Nova Cat’s so called Trial of Retribution that reduced the Bear’s warship strength to just the Rasalhague the Nightlord class Battleship Ursa Major as well and the Carrack class transports the Yiggdrasil and Den Mother.  With the death of seemingly 90% of the Warships in the Inner Sphere, with the House Lords fleets all but annihilated as well as that of Comstar the Bear’s position may not have seemed so serious and the Dominion turned their attention to producing a large number of Aesir/Vanir class Assault Dropships to go with the Dominions large dropship fleet whilst their capital ships were reserved for vital missions.

Still losses were incurred, the Ursa Major died in battle taking almost all of the remaining DCMS Warships with her and earned a warriors death, whilst the Rasalhague saw extensive action against Clan Nova Cat including their near annihilation before the Republic of the Sphere forced a peace between the warring parties.

With the biggest battleship in known space supported by a large dropship fleet the Dominion seemed content but other plans were afoot.  With their industrial base working as individual parts of a far greater machine resources were being stockpiled, crews trained and bred, equipment prepared.
Deep within Dominion space and behind tight security the Rasalhague Dominion was building something, something huge.  In the orbital yards of Alshain, a Leviathan was taking shape.

Design

At 2.4 million tonnes the Leviathan III is simply the largest ship in space, over 1600 meters in length (1623 meters to be precise) there’s nothing that even comes close even the huge and now near (or possibly totally seeing as we have no idea what’s going on in the Homeworlds) extinct McKenna Class falls short, being lighter and over 200 meters shorter.  Whilst the gargantuan Newgrange class yardship is longer at 2680 meters the ship is 400,000 tones lighter. 

The Dominion learned the lessons of the Jihad and Ghost Bear/Draconis Combine wars.  Whilst big battleships are expensive, inefficient and vulnerable to small craft, nothing else suffices for when orbital and indeed system supremacy must be gained.  With this in mind Scientist General Gwendolyn worked to retain the Leviathan II’s firepower whilst increasing its anti-fighter and anti-missile defences whilst also making the ship as survivable as possible.

Layered with a massive 5,373 tonnes of Lamellar Ferro-Carbide armour, the strongest material known to the Clans the Leviathan III has protection that is unheard of, whilst her huge hull is heavily reinforced and braced making her as structurally sound as possible.

Despite the massive size and weight the ships engines can produce an impressive 2.5g of thrust at full throttle, and a more sustained 1.5g at standard thrust which makes her as fast as many smaller vessels and is of the same thrust level as the older McKenna.

The Leviathan III like the II is designed from the keel up to engage and destroy targets at extreme range and takes a page from the book of the old Texas class battleships to do this.  Aboard the Texas the ships main armament was clusters of 12 NL-45’s.  The Leviathan III takes this not one step further but several laps round the track further.  A massive 108 NL-55’s grouped together into 12 gun batteries cover every angle except on the stern. 

Able to take full advantage of bracket firing and the laser’s extreme range these weapons when massed together can rip apart any warship in space and even the largest pocket warship can’t take more than a hit or two from the massed guns.  In many ways this is similar to the McKenna classes weapons layout, and whereas the McKenna relied in smaller groupings of hard hitting Heavy Naval PPC’s the Leviathan clearly works to abuse the bracket firing technology advantages to its limit.

It does not stop there.  The ‘supporting’ naval weapons include 16 Heavy Naval PPC’s grouped together in quad mounts covering the bow, stern, and front left and right arcs, 12 AR-10 Missile launchers with generous ammo bins are spread across every arc, 15 NAC-20’s in triple turrets, and finally 6 Heavy Naval Gauss rifles in paired turrets on the broadside and bow. 

In theory this is slightly more throw weight than a McKenna in a broadside on broadside battle before factoring in any missiles or bracketing.

McKenna – 497 Capital Damage
Leviathan III – 504 Capital Damage

But it is at shorter ranges where the Leviathan III also spares little expense.  Unlike the SLDF era ships that they used before the Leviathan series always had a large array of anti-fighter and dropship weaponry to ward off hostile small craft assaults, this is refined in the Leviathan III.  She’s literally dripping with ER and Pulse Lasers, LRM’s and ATM’s, Gauss rifles and PPCs (which have been fitted with Clan PPC Capacitors!) whilst a phalanx of AMS and LAMS keep hostile missiles honest and can disrupt, damage and thin out all but the biggest strikes.  Whilst small fighters that go near her could be blotted out of existance with barely a 'how do you do'.  The Leviathan III also features a few sub-capital weapons in the form of the Clan’s Stingray missiles.  Six of which are mounted in paired triple launch tubes on each broadside to deliver a brutal anti-dropship/assault dropship/Pocket Warship punch if the massed lasers have failed to destroy the target.

Hostile Aerospace fighters would be facing a veritable wall of flak and missiles that would be engaging them well on their way in and as the range drops the firepower only gets more intense as ATM’s start firing HE rounds and the Stingray’s come into effect whilst the AR-10’s are spitting Barracuda’s at any threat.  The result would be hell for all but the most intense of strikes and even heavily armoured fighters won’t last long under the barrage.

Doctrinally the Leviathan III differs from the II.  Whereas the II featured a massive 300 aerospace fighters carried on board the III carries ‘only’ 60.  But where as the Leviathan II featured 8 dropships the III carries a staggering 20 and can bring its own escort force along with it.  With the Aesir and Vanir being exceptionally common and built in large numbers its most likely that these large dropships would form the main bulwark of dropship assets and the Aesir class ships would be able to lend their 30 on-board Aerospace fighters to the fight.

The Leviathan III also features 10 small craft and an on-board compliment of 225 Elementals for shipboard security or boarding actions although I do not know what suits they would be but i'd assume Gnome/Golems as mobility isn't a factor but firepower is.

Unlike most Clan ships IE Star League ones the Leviathan III has a rather modest storage of ‘only’ 51,459 tonnes but she also has a nice deep 15,000 tonne fuel tank, which is enough for nearly 949 days of thrusting around.  She’d run out of consumables but at least she’s got a decent fuel tank on her unlike her Star League era cousins who had dinky fuel tanks.

Thoughts

The Leviathan III is quite simply a monster, with the only ship that can challenge her technically a sister ship (The Rasalhague) there’s nothing out there that even comes close to being a threat unless Clan Jade Falcon threw EVERYTHING at them and was willing to sacrifice most of its fleet to bring the Leviathan III down.   

With a huge tonnage of armour, its to be expected that the Leviathan III has thick armour but this is all kinds of silly.  She has four times the protection of a McKenna.  Yep, that’s 1000 points of armour on every single part of the hull.  That means you need to do 100 points of capital damage to threshold the armour and there is NOTHING that can do that, not even a Castrum at full roar, or the massed naval PPC’s of a McKenna can threshold the armour to get a crit and you have to hope that missiles can do it.  But with 20 AMS covering each angle of approach (split between normal and laser) good luck with that too!  Oh and its structural integrity…150 points strong.  The only way you might be able to do it on a high speed approach and have big NAC or Gauss rifles in the bow of your ship and hope for a hit.  Otherwise you’re having to burrow through that massive amount of armour plate.

The wall of anti-fighter/dropship defences would probably be akin to flying into something like this - https://youtu.be/czAwsE7yLBc?t=202
With multiple bays of anti-fighter weapons with them overlapping their firing arcs can be truly intimidating, and even if a Dropship does not get blasted out of existence at long range they can’t take repeated strikes from dozens of LRM-20’s, ATM-12s ER Large lasers, large pulse lasers, gauss rifles and PPCs.  And then if they get past that, its ER Medium and medium pulse laser boogaloo.

Sure fighters COULD take one out if you massed them into a HUGE strike and threw them all at one facing, but that’s probably the only way, and this of course ignores the Leviathan’s aerospace assets and of course that armada of dropships.

Let’s talk about those for a moment shall we? The Aesir/Vanir is a nasty combination, 30 ASF’s or a LOT of sub-capital missiles.  You can read about them -
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,37176.0.html

These ships work best in groups, with the Vanir able to cover each other’s weaker arcs by simply being covered by another of its kind.  Assuming that a Leviathan III came along with 15 dropships (3 stars) and used a 2 Aesir 3 Vanir mix whilst the remaining 5 are cargo dropships, that is still 180 fighters and 9 heavy escorts that would add another layer of anti-aircraft defences to ward off any strike whilst the Leviathan does the job of un-existing anything that looks mean.

Realistically the Leviathan III and its air group can’t be used outside anything of all but the largest scenario and even if you went without fighters and dropships it can still rip apart anything in space.  Possibly the only weak point is the stern, here the firepower is the lightest with ‘only’ four Heavy Naval PPC’s and whatever guns are in the aft left or right arc you’re approaching from. 

This ship though is not one to conquer worlds. Sure if you loaded her up with 20 Overlord C’s you could bring 900 Mech’s to the party but that’s really not what the Leviathan III is for. She’s built to ensure orbital dominance, to head in system with her escorting flotilla of assault dropships and smash anything that comes up to challenge her.  The Dominion is not too shy about the pleasantries of warfare as they were in the past (see Second Combine/Dominion War with the unofficial Trial of Annihilation waged against Clan Nova Cat) so its not too unfeasible to see her guns turned groundward if needs be.  Once orbital security is assured then the jumpships with the invasion forces can arrive and take over a world.  The Leviathan III crushes the orbital defences and ensures aerospace superiority whilst covering the landing forces.

The Leviathan III is the settings Yamato, a warship built to beat anything that anyone might possibly built, its an Eclipse Class Super Star Destroyer or an EVE Titan type ship.
I’ve heard other folks refer to the Bear’s as the Camping faction. One that sits behind its defences and seems relatively harmless whilst building up and up. This is very true, for many years the Bears were a largely ignored Clan, but their massive industrial support has helped them start building this thing, and apparently the Republic is having kittens about it, as the Ravens are also apparently working on something as well.  What this says for Warships in the setting is still unknown. 

The Leviathan III might be used as a plot point, a few nuclear flashes and evidence pointing at the DCMS could result in the Dominion crossing the border and take pressure off the beleaguered Davion’s.  Or we could be looking at the ICS Kerensky for all we know.

Using One

Really you would not, at least outside of special battles and campaigns, these things are broken. Its really that simple.  But let’s say you did put down a Leviathan III and your opponent didn’t immediately throw a chair at you, this thing is a broadside fighter.  Even without dropships and fighters you want to just turn broadside on and start hammering away.  This then puts your opponent in a horrid bind.  Do they sit at extreme range with next to nothing capable of replying save missiles which are going to be swatted down by the massed AMS.  Or, do you try to get into the range of your guns and then suddenly face a rapidly escalating wall of firepower being thrown your way? 

Then its just a case of vomiting out enough firepower to make a hostile ship simply ‘go away’.  And it can do that with a worrying amount of ease, whilst being able to take near everything in the setting and laughing it off.

Facing one

A Leviathan III is the House Atradies box thingy…and we know what’s in the box.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/13/ae/68/13ae6819443c6cc6afbf6f5a78bfdc05.jpg

Basically these are nightmares to face.  There’s no way of putting it any way.  A Leviathan III can thin out inbound fighter strikes with its bonkers flak array and lasers. These can also rip assault dropships apart in quick order.  Its guns and missiles can rip capital ships apart and with its huge armour, you have to hammer away in the valiant hope of getting a breach or making the Leviathan back off.
What you need is numbers, lore wise the Falcons could do it if they were willing to sacrifice damn near every ship they had, seeing as a Leviathan III can 'remove' an Aegis in a turn of fire if she's not at extreme range.  The Ravens could do it as well, again if they were willing to sacrifice nearly every major unit in their fleet.  Fighters, cruisers, battleships, you’re going to need them all and you’re going to either need to split its fire by attacking from multiple vectors or forcing the brute to eliminate a target at a time before moving on, whilst other ships attack without too much counter battery fire.
And this is before you factor in any dropships or ASF assets with the Leviathan III.  Realistically you’d not have the Leviathan III alone without any ASF assets or dropships and with 60 on-board fighters and whatever comes with her massed Aesir/Vanir or any other dropships on her 20 collars (expect Nagasawa’s too).

This means that even if you bring along a huge swarm of Castrum’s even they will have issues to paraphrase a certain Mon Cal “Our ships can’t repel firepower of that magnitude!”  Doubly so as even the Castum’s Improved Heavy Gauss then come within range of the Leviathan’s massed anti-fighter/dropship weapons, and whilst the Casty does have Sub-capital weaponry, the I-HG’s give it a lot of extra firepower. 

Realistically the only way to fight this monster is with a pair or trio of McKenna’s, a pair might struggle as it’s a case of them burying through the Leviathan’s armour before their weaker hides are torn asunder, but three should in theory do it easily.  In theory a McKenna if she can hold the range open can fight better at extreme range but it’s also incredibly difficult to hold that range open and fire broadsides which the McKenna would have to do to get the most out of her massed N-PPC’s.  The Leviathan III's decent thrust rating means she's not as sluggish as the Aegis but has enough thrust to turn and roll as needed, sure she's no speedboat but she does not need to be.  With her being able to turn enough with most destroyers and cruisers means that even trying to get into a decent firing position (astern, try getting astern if you can) can be a pain

Can you use fighters? Yes, but you’d have to sling ALL your fighters at it.  Not all of them on a planet, but probably in an entire sector/district/region.  Doubly so if she’s got fighters and dropships herself.  Slinging nukes is always an option, but thanks to massed AMS and her absurdly tough hide its going to take more than one.  That’s why I think these things are simply Deus Ex Machina.  I’m sure that if the Leviathan III does not die in the shipyards due to R̶e̶p̶u̶b̶l̶i̶c̶ TOTALLY SOMEONE ELSE’S interference then she then becomes a massive plot device.  This ship, in the current setting can literally decide the fate of a campaign, or even an empire...or a Republic.  But we'll have to see what the future holds. 

If this ship has a theme song its this as background music;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqYK1EZ3O0

And this when she jumps in;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sASfLQm9iCc

And yes it would be transmitted across the entire system.









The Leviathan and her collection of Tubes. Perhaps its where the Chatterweb comes from...


As always, comments, criticism and thoughts are most welcome.
 
« Last Edit: 11 April 2016, 10:48:12 by marauder648 »
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VhenRa

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #1 on: 11 April 2016, 11:23:49 »
I don't think you even can nuke it. Isn't that AMS so damn good you are basically going to need to throw hundreds of nukes all at once just to have a hope in hell of slipping one through the AMS?

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #2 on: 11 April 2016, 11:27:50 »
... I’ll say it here and now that the Leviathan III is in my opinion both Deus Ex-Machina (quite literally) and is in essence broken....

...That’s why I think these things are simply Deus Ex Machina.  I’m sure that if the Leviathan III does not die in the shipyards due to R̶e̶p̶u̶b̶l̶i̶c̶ TOTALLY SOMEONE ELSE’S interference then she then becomes a massive plot device.  This ship, in the current setting can literally decide the fate of a campaign, or even an empire...or a Republic.  But we'll have to see what the future holds...

I admire the genius of people who agree with me ;)

But seriously.. the Lev III quite dramatically benefits from meta.  Warship construction rules have changed dramatically since almost all of the warships were originally statted.  The shift in how much armor is "appropriate" for the game is but a single factor that makes the Lev III a beast among now-obsolete designs.  It's a demonstrator for the new rules.  A munchkin could hardly do any better at creating a monster.

So this begs the question: why did CGL create it?  Part of me wants to say that TPTB simply wanted to show off some "munchkin" chops of their own.  But honestly, would they canonize an Aerospace Gausszilla?  There's got to be a reason beyond Teh LoLz.  The Lev III might be intended to be nothing more than a revolutionary ship akin to the Ironclads of the Civil War... one (well two) vessels instantly render every other fighting ship before them as obsolete in both cases afterall.  If this is the paradigm, then we should expect to see new "ironclads" being rushed into production around the Inner Sphere as space navies scramble to remain relevant.  And I don't see that as a probability given the larger picture of the Dark Age.  So that leaves the other probable reason for the Lev III's publication: it's going to be a Big Deal in the upcoming plot.  There's a dark horse of a possibility (perhaps tied to Teh LoLz reason for publication) that the Lev III will simply be nuked out of existence before it slips its construction yard.  But barring that, we're looking at this setting's Death Star.

I don't think you even can nuke it. Isn't that AMS so damn good you are basically going to need to throw hundreds of nukes all at once just to have a hope in hell of slipping one through the AMS?

You CAN, but you'd arguably have to go into the realm of AToW.  AMS can't shoot down boarding shuttles, so just board the Lev III.  And bring a nuke onboard with your boarding party.  Of course, getting your shuttle latched onto the hull is easier said than done... but once/if done.. the Lev III is a goner.  Presuming your chosen rules engine even allows for carrying nukes onboard a hostile spacecraft.

VhenRa

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #3 on: 11 April 2016, 11:36:06 »
Of course, getting your shuttle latched onto the hull is easier said than done...

I... am breathtaken at your sheer display of understatement.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #4 on: 11 April 2016, 11:39:24 »
I... am breathtaken at your sheer display of understatement.

That's why it probably won't happen after the ship finishes completion and leaves its shipyard.  The only way it could happen in open battle is if the team leader were a player character in a RPG, or perhaps carrying the surname Skywalker...

EDIT:  Although, I suppose despite this not being explicitly tagged as an Alpha Strike article, I do feel like the Lev III in Alpha Strike is relevant to the discussion about the Lev III's meta role.  After participating in the gnashing of teeth about the Lev III earlier, I did come to a realization about the ship under Alpha Strike/ACS: where it benefits from the meta in TW/SO, it suffers in AS/ACS.  Its fearsome firepower is condensed down into a very few weapons bays.  Yes, nothing can withstand that firepower that was already immense before being concentrated... but it can only kill 8 spaceships per turn.  And for its PV, you can bring 6 Vengeance carriers fully loaded with fighters averaging about 35 PV each. 240 fighters will last a while when at most 8 of them are dying per round.  Long enough that their accumulated damage will overcome the armor (nothing threshholds the Lev III in AS, either) and then there you go... sure it's got obnoxious SI but once you're taking crits it's over.

And what about its 20 docking collars and escorts, you may ask? Obviously, however many PV they add up to, your opposing force ALSO gets.  The 6 vengeances and 240 fighters are just for the PV of the Lev III, over and above whatever PV its escort fleet is worth.
« Last Edit: 11 April 2016, 11:51:37 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Weirdo

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #5 on: 11 April 2016, 11:45:50 »
To me, the sheer everythingness of the Leviathan III(and the II before it) is actually it's greatest weakness. Assuming Player B doesn't bring a supership of their own, any game that can even glimpse the word balanced is going to involve a huge fleet on the other side. Even given the ranges and death tolls involved, that Lev is going to take a lot of hits every turn. Statistics alone dictate natural twelves, which means crit chances even outside the threshold mechanism, and crits have a funny way of neutering WarShips a lot faster than you might think. Even in a pickup game with no plot or campaign repercussions, I would want to fly a Lev very conservatively. Every maneuver would be planned as an attempt to minimize the number of units that can fire on me in any given turn, and shot priority would be to neutralize lots of smaller units quickly, or quickly taking out larger units that can generate the most to-hit rolls, such as any DropShips that manage to close into conventional gun range. If the Bears have access to any DropShips with Screen Launchers, those would have top priority for docking collars.

Facing a Lev, my first priority would be to follow the above scenario, and what whatever I can to generate as many to-hit rolls as possible, preferably on the bow or stern. The second would be to get a nuke into that ship's hex. Not even directly targeted on the Leviathan, I would just need to successfully detonate one in the hex. The damage from a space nuke may not be AE, but the EMI is, and last I checked, the effects last for the remainder of the game. Forcing that monster to suffer a +2 modifier to all shots will go a long way toward keeping my own guys alive longer.
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #6 on: 11 April 2016, 13:01:46 »
marauder, you forgot the anti aerospace setting for the NL batteries. It's not just the PWS they can swat down, they can swat down ASFs too with 'Cudas helping out. The nasty thing about the NL in anti aerospace mode is the capital range. Now you have something to add to the 'Cuda at these ranges.

Also the cover art is very different. Look at the tubes. On the cover art they look like arms of sort, start as tubes and end in a shoulder melding with upper hull. The cover art doesn't show the "rear" struts like the mini and the current TRO art.
« Last Edit: 11 April 2016, 13:04:03 by HobbesHurlbut »
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marauder648

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #7 on: 11 April 2016, 13:10:48 »
marauder, you forgot the anti aerospace setting for the NL batteries. It's not just the PWS they can swat down, they can swat down ASFs too with 'Cudas helping out. The nasty thing about the NL in anti aerospace mode is the capital range. Now you have something to add to the 'Cuda at these ranges.

Also the cover art is very different. Look at the tubes. On the cover art they look like arms of sort, start as tubes and end in a shoulder melding with upper hull. The cover art doesn't show the "rear" struts like the mini and the current TRO art.

Oh I never forgot about the NL's going dakka dakka against fighters, I kinda just assumed that folks would remember that they can do that :)

And yeah, i'm guessing the Chatterweb Tubes are basically the docking ports for Dropships. One on top, one underneath and you can easily fit 20 dropships.
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Nebfer

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #8 on: 11 April 2016, 14:58:22 »
Oh I never forgot about the NL's going dakka dakka against fighters, I kinda just assumed that folks would remember that they can do that :)

And yeah, i'm guessing the Chatterweb Tubes are basically the docking ports for Dropships. One on top, one underneath and you can easily fit 20 dropships.
Well the Question would be is how big are thoughs tubes, they may be small enough to cause some interference with their next door neighbors, given the over sized values of B-tech dropships (larger than they need to be)

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #9 on: 11 April 2016, 15:15:35 »
Someone needs to build a ship with a medium or heavy mass driver to counter the Lev III.  Maybe put the Soyal back into production?
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #10 on: 11 April 2016, 15:45:45 »
Someone needs to build a ship with a medium or heavy mass driver to counter the Lev III.  Maybe put the Soyal back into production?
The aiming's a bitch on mass drivers.... and you're guaranteed a CIC hit since you always have to point your nose at the target.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #11 on: 11 April 2016, 16:08:53 »
True enough. But how many Soyals can you get for the BV of a Lev III?  Three?  One of them is bound to hit! ;D
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Men Shen

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #12 on: 11 April 2016, 16:19:12 »
What about the Erynes? Would she match up against the LEVIII?

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #13 on: 11 April 2016, 16:22:13 »
True enough. But how many Soyals can you get for the BV of a Lev III?  Three?  One of them is bound to hit! ;D

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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #14 on: 11 April 2016, 16:35:53 »
What about the Erynes? Would she match up against the LEVIII?

Unknown, since I don't think we ever got full stats, but unlikely.  The Erinyes was a planet killer.  It wasn't designed to fight ship-to-ship.
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Frogfoot

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #15 on: 11 April 2016, 18:41:54 »


Ah, the sweet tears of Bear haters.

But don't worry, this thing is destined to get squashed. It won't stand a chance against the fleets of Leviathan Prime IIs coming from the Homeworlds.

Elcor05

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #16 on: 11 April 2016, 19:43:25 »
I’ve heard other folks refer to the Bear’s as the Camping faction. One that sits behind its defences and seems relatively harmless whilst building up and up. This is very true, for many years the Bears were a largely ignored Clan, but their massive industrial support has helped them start building this thing, and apparently the Republic is having kittens about it, as the Ravens are also apparently working on something as well.  What this says for Warships in the setting is still unknown. 

I can't imagine what the Ravens are building, although I love the implication that they might be building a new Leviathan. Maybe they'll abandon the OA and turn into Sea Foxes part two, but this time with a giant warship.
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Jellico

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #17 on: 11 April 2016, 21:09:22 »
Thank you Weirdo for a reasonable assessment of how to face one.

The origin of the Leviathan III probably goes back to the early 2000s and the origin of the Aesir. There in this pre Sub Cap era the question was asked. How can you build a competent Clan PWS given crewed ships were the antithesis of the Clan warrior ethic? The answer was you can't, especially with the weapons of the time, so you instead build a well protected transport to enable the Warriors to do their job.

Jump forward to the middle of the Jihad and the question is asked. How can you justify a WarShip in a age of PWS, XL engine DHS ASF, AShM, AEWM, nukes, et al. WarShips can be insanely powerful but ton for ton everything else is more effective. You have to go back to what unique advantages a WarShip has.

They are tactically and strategically mobile. They can carry more than 10 docking collars. They have mass left overfor things that aren't jump core. The ability to carry capital weapons is unique but of very limited value. There are cheaper ways to kill people.

So the role for a WarShip in the modern era becomes that of mother ship. Specifically a mother ship that can hang around for a short time in a hostile environment with need for an unusually large number of DropShips.

Of course FASAnomics makes anything to do with docking collars expensive. Even with 10 collars and 500,000 tons these things are going to be expensive. Best value and protection comes from size so gigantism is inevitable.

Better yet there is one huge advantage from a gaming poit of view. The daughter craft can be separated from the mother ship providing scalability in scenarios from a single elemental to a full fleet of multiple mother ships.

Finally by being so overpowered WarShips become unplayable. This is not a bad thing. By being unplayable they become strategic objects. They require different thinking and force people to see them as the multi regiment equivalents that they are. Hopefully that means that you won't see them imagined in the shooting invading DropShips down role we see them now. Likewise for orbital bombardment. Strategic power plays would be neutralizing that option rather than the player's mercenary company. With those objections removed maybe just maybe the WarShip embargo may be lifted.

Of course by then WarShips were off the table but the theory remained in place. Then the XTROs provided an opportunity but using existing art. The Leviathan III was as much a technology demonstrator as anything. Proof of concept. Amazing it got through.

Art made this a Leviathan. A clean design would have been worse with better weapon placement and choices, and armour. I am a firm believer that variants should be recognizable through record sheets alone.
Why wasn't an attempt made to keep this in line with other canon ships? I believe that bird flew with the Avalon, Mjolnir, and arguably Thera. If new ships are introduced they will be to this standard if intended for post post 3067. This is a 30 year old franchise.  We have been caught before by changing fashion and rule changes. WarShips happen rarely so are more vulnerable to change than Mechs which get renewed every TRO. The Leviathan III is future proofed in case the embargo is ever lifted.

Wrangler

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #18 on: 11 April 2016, 21:39:17 »
Thank you for this great article.   Hopefully the Omega of Warships, isn't the last one.

I do wonder if didn't notice or missed something other interesting technology which was included in the Lev III, look to her small craft bays and notice she has robotic assistance keep bay crew numbers down, ARTS.  Word of Blake (?) technology, lingers there.  I'm curious what brought that about.  Not that I'm complaining about it.  ;)
 I wonder how it effect things aside from cost of man power.

Her being mobile base seems to be best use now, given rarity of WarShips, and sheer power of this fully armed and operational bat...mobile/fortress base.

I am still believer that numbers matters, having fleet makes the universe funner for players despite this thinking of that warships ruin the game by being in there and taking wind out of conquest or overshadowing BattleMechs.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what i can say that hasn't been said far more better than i would dare mention.  She biggest and baddest known boat out there.  Thou i do hope the Lev III's actually name will turn out to be the Ragnarok. ;)
« Last Edit: 11 April 2016, 23:43:23 by Wrangler »
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #19 on: 11 April 2016, 22:26:59 »
I like the concept of the Levi III mobile base - area denial ship it jumps into a region the whole region is threatened

I just wish it existed in a universe with some reference ie smaller designs built to a similar spec designed for survivability.  The problem with the SL era and even modern ships before this one was a single nuke ruined their day I've never thought they should be that easy to knock down but I do like to see WarShips duking it out yes Pocket WarShips are designed to fill in for that but it doesn't feel the same

I'd like to see the Levi III pare with new designs take an Aegis or Lola and max it using the same philosophy then you have your base you also have some toys to play with.

As it stands the Levi III to me is a demonstrator of what could be if aerospace capital units are allowed to return

Jellico

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #20 on: 11 April 2016, 23:56:57 »

I am still believer that numbers matters, having fleet makes the universe funner for players despite this thinking of that warships ruin the game by being in there and taking wind out of conquest or overshadowing BattleMechs.



Yes numbers matter but not in the way you are thinking. Personally I would love to see ship classes introduced in triplets or at least pairs. Then enforce a realistic maintain schedule. You need three of anything to keep one in service.

But the temptation to just use the three X of doom is just too much for too many people.

marauder648

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #21 on: 12 April 2016, 02:11:45 »
Important question though, was the article okay and of a suitable standard.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #22 on: 12 April 2016, 02:52:14 »
For a WarShip of a different standard yes it's a good article

Jellico

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #23 on: 12 April 2016, 03:13:15 »
Important question though, was the article okay and of a suitable standard.
Not a good question to ask in public.

It is good to see some one writing WarShips of the Week. You cover a lot of details, but you need to check your details.

For example you spelt Atreides incorrectly, linked to a picture that spelt it correctly, then used it to describe an artifact used on an Atreides, but more associated with the Bene Gesserit.

marauder648

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #24 on: 12 April 2016, 04:37:45 »
Not a good question to ask in public.

It is good to see some one writing WarShips of the Week. You cover a lot of details, but you need to check your details.

For example you spelt Atreides incorrectly, linked to a picture that spelt it correctly, then used it to describe an artifact used on an Atreides, but more associated with the Bene Gesserit.

Heh, you guys knew what I meant though :)  The Leviathan III is the pain box. 
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BrokenMnemonic

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #25 on: 12 April 2016, 09:40:18 »
Perhaps the best long-term way to deal with the Lev III once it launches is to take a very long-term view - destroy the Ghost Bear shipyards so that they don't have an easy way of servicing, maintaining and repairing it. Sooner or later lack of maintenance will make it misjump, hopefully before it appears over your current administrative capital.

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #26 on: 12 April 2016, 10:12:33 »
Big scary dragon ;D. Treat as such, and your fine.  But the biggest thing to remember is that there are very few of these Dagons, hit where they are not.  Make them chase your smaller more numerous vessels until they break down or run out of spare parts.

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #27 on: 12 April 2016, 14:07:58 »
I think it would be interesting to put one of these in Kerensky's liberation of Terra. Using SDS drones might be a decent way to fight it, or at least breach some of the defenses so manned ships can get in there to do some damage.

Maybe that's what the Bears were thinking of: The Jihad and the Word's SDS messing up everyone who attacked. (Unless it was a contest to see who had the biggest... WarShip.)

Jellico

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #28 on: 12 April 2016, 17:42:09 »
Maybe for the L0. The L3 just uses the hull the available infrastructure is tailored to.

Grey

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Re: Warship of the month - April - Leviathan III
« Reply #29 on: 13 April 2016, 05:29:40 »
I can see a Leviathan III dying one of three ways:
Sabotage
Maintenance failure (as has been mentioned)
Jumpship sacrifice much as what killed the Perigard Zalman

In other words nothing playable, though any of these are possible from a fiction point of view. The Leviathan III is basically a plot element, a setting piece, and I think someone mentioned this, a canon example of just how far the rules can be taken.

And admittedly I'm not so good with warships, but what is up with the ARTS small craft bay?

 

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