“Save” the Jags searching for scenario ideas

[Metallgewitter]

Tranquil? The setting for Mechwarrior 3 though I don't know if that is actual canon

[BATTLEMASTER]

Tranquil? The setting for Mechwarrior 3 though I don't know if that is actual canon

I think it was canonized in the novella that was based on MechWarrior 3.  It's been awhile since I've read it.

[Hellraiser]

Besides strana mechty what other possible knots of jag warriors would there have been in the homeworlds? Londerholm or perhaps one of the pentagon worlds?

IIRC the Jags had partial ownership / enclaves on...

Eden
Circe
Tranquil
Vinton
Londerholm


Well heck, Sarna gives us the following

Atreus, Circe, Eden, Homer, Kirin, Tranquil, and Vinton

So I was close, lol.

[Sjhernan3060]

IIRC the Jags had partial ownership / enclaves on...

Eden
Circe
Tranquil
Vinton
Londerholm

I know osis scrapped up whatever he could in a short time frame but that was strictly from strana mechty right? I know he was pressed for time. RE: the other worlds just listed can we assume that they were depleted as badly as the huntress garrison? I would not think so…


Well heck, Sarna gives us the following

Atreus, Circe, Eden, Homer, Kirin, Tranquil, and Vinton

So I was close, lol.

[Hellraiser]

I know osis scrapped up whatever he could in a short time frame but that was strictly from strana mechty right? I know he was pressed for time. RE: the other worlds just listed can we assume that they were depleted as badly as the huntress garrison? I would not think so…

Not sure where it all came from.
I would guess that the Jag Holdings didn't have much beyond Solahma.  (Infantry/Vees)
Something sure, but the Jags had major OZ territories to garrison & had been dealing w/ revolts in the OZ & predation in the Homeworlds & they were never a major industrial powerhouse, they didn't recover well from Tukayyid.
Given what the Wolves had I can't imagine the Jags having much more than a Galaxy covering the entire homeworlds outside of Huntress.

[Metallgewitter]

From the novels it sounds as if Osis flew to Huntress with whatever he could muster on Strana Mechty: sibko trainers, solahma and young cadets. There was no mention what happened to other forces beside the entry for the Xerxes. But also remember: there was Galax Commander Mehta who had withdrawn from the Is and rebuild the forces under her into a functioning galaxy. I would suspect that she also made stops at other Jaguar holdings to gather what was available. When Serpent struck Huntress there is no mention of any reinforcements coming from other holdings only the two Solahma galaxies (I think it was two) defending the planet. The first wave was then under the command oh Mehta followed later by Osis. I would have to check the novel but maybe Osis picked up whatever was left as well on his treck to Huntress

[Alan Grant]

Found perhaps a slightly useful snippet. Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans (page 50) includes a sample character template for a "disgraced warrior." He's a Smoke Jaguar who fought in the Inner Sphere. It doesn't read like he was on Huntress, more like he was horrified to learn that the Spheroids had gotten there. It isn't clear where he was when it all went down. He reads like he had no way to get home (Huntress) and no one was willing to assist him. When Clan Smoke Jaguar died, he ends up in the dark caste. The way his background is written, he basically blames the Clans in general for turning their backs on Clan Smoke Jaguar. So he felt justified turning his back on the Clans.

We know several Jaguar warriors ended up as bandits/pirates/dark caste. Even 1-2 warships.

The Clan Smoke Jaguar page on Sarna has a subsection called Annihilation Survivors that covers the various accounts we have of former Jaguars popping up, often as bandits, pirate bands, even Solaris gladiators.

I think what happened here is the Clan died. The Jaguars were annihilated as of the Great Refusal. What was left at that point.. think of them like ronin, masterless warriors. Their stories vary a lot from person to person. The Clan was gone, and they scattered to the wind. Alone or in small groups.

What they didn't do (by all canon accounts), was try to defend the Clan's enclaves in the name of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Because the Clan was dead. Which is a great excuse for the other Clans to treat any remaining warriors like bandits anyway. To NOT to have to treat them like honorable warriors, and just steamroll them if they do stand and fight.

That's pretty consistent with canon events. Which always make it sound like in the aftermath of the Great Refusal the other Clans scooped up the Jaguar enclaves and didn't have to fight any Jaguars to do it. Most often they fought other Clans who had shown up to acquire those same enclaves. But there's no mention of any holdout Jaguar warriors having an Alamo moment.

That could change someday. There may be some unwritten stories in there of some holdout Smoke Jaguars. After all the story surrounding the Fidelis was only told in recent years, a very long time after the Twilight of the Clans novels were published.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I feel like this has come up before in this very thread at least a couple times over the years of it constantly coming back up. There is a line in Shadows of War that states Lincoln Osis brought everything the Jaguars had left to them to Huntress when he arrived. Full stop. However, there is Jaguar Star Colonel Notable Pilot for the Ebon Jaguar in TRO 3058U who apparently wasn't on Huntress but still was in the Homeworlds. Same book also mentions other Clans picked up some Turkinas and Night Gyrs for themselves picking over the ruins of Huntress and other Jaguar enclaves. FM:CC has a single line that the Mandrills on Atreus were beginning to probe Jaguar defenses after Huntress, in contrast to the Horses on Kirin who essentially just walked across their enclave borders and took over. All of these infer the presence of additional forces rather than anything we can directly observe, and I've long been of the opinion that the Jaguars had other forces in Clan space to Trial for what the Clan needed.

[Metallgewitter]

Also: during the Jihad the Blakists held several Jaguars imprisoned until they freed themselves and were collected by Stone's coalition. I think those became the basis for the Fidelis. (just my speculation though)

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Fidelis originated in surviving Jaguar Warriors and lower castes from the final fighting on Huntress journeying to the Wayside system and building a new society there until the Jihad. The Warriors on Yorii who liberated themselves, assembled into units, and presented themselves to be cut down while adhering to strict Zellbrigen appear to have been captured during Op Bulldog likely by the ComGuard or the DCMS. Stone swooped in and whisked the survivors away to parts unknown, and I don't think it's every been confirmed if this group and Stone's Shadows/The Fidelis ever met/merged though it seems likely.

[ColBosch]

The Fidelis originated in surviving Jaguar Warriors and lower castes from the final fighting on Huntress journeying to the Wayside system and building a new society there until the Jihad. The Warriors on Yorii who liberated themselves, assembled into units, and presented themselves to be cut down while adhering to strict Zellbrigen appear to have been captured during Op Bulldog likely by the ComGuard or the DCMS. Stone swooped in and whisked the survivors away to parts unknown, and I don't think it's every been confirmed if this group and Stone's Shadows/The Fidelis ever met/merged though it seems likely.

BLP was the "Jaguar guy," and with him gone it's going to fall to someone else to finish telling that backstory. He could've done it in Forever Faithful, but he needed to spend his precious wordcount on thinly-veiled references to modern-day issues.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean, you're not wrong about any of that, but I still hate to see him referred to as "the Jaguar guy."  :tongue:

[BrianDavion]

Truthfully with BLP the reborn Jags would have been terriable. I'm looking forward to seeing a writer capable of nuance finding something fun to do with them

[Blkbr2020]

Trial Under Fire covers the MW3 story line and shows some Jag forces other than those on Huntress. It does not mention any of the other holding as far as I remember.

[Maingunnery]

Truthfully with BLP the reborn Jags would have been terriable. I'm looking forward to seeing a writer capable of nuance finding something fun to do with them

The Jags have been terrible ever since they became the Fidelis, there was never any hope. 

[Blkbr2020]

Now that we have Trial of Birthright and IKEO in print:

The Jaguars new home.........is New Home lol. I enjoyed the sourcebook and it was cool seeing the Jaguars back in action. Trial of Birthright also had some fun new characters that I hope to see more of in the SLDF. I'm looking forward to the Jaguars getting more coverage in upcoming novels, the clan Force manual and hopefully a field manual at some point.

[Sjhernan3060]

Now that we have Trial of Birthright and IKEO in print:

The Jaguars new home.........is New Home lol. I enjoyed the sourcebook and it was cool seeing the Jaguars back in action. Trial of Birthright also had some fun new characters that I hope to see more of in the SLDF. I'm looking forward to the Jaguars getting more coverage in upcoming novels, the clan Force manual and hopefully a field manual at some point.

Glad to hear it! I will definitely pick that up

[Wrangler]

My take away I like idea of the Smoke Jaguars becoming the special forces of the Star League. It fits them more, they certainly need replacement for the Black Hearts.  Rest of the Fidels still AWOL. (i'm only on page 119)

[Sjhernan3060]

Remember, Huntress's garrison force was so badly off for equipment that the Galaxy Commander in charge had resorted to smuggling captured IS machines onto the planet in order to insure he had mechs.  In the wake of the Invasion and their losses on Tukayyid, the Smoke Jaguars were left catastrophically short on materials, and they'd poached from most of their front-line galaxies to form a brand new galaxy, Tau Galaxy, that was wiped out before it could be deployed.  Their anemic production couldn't keep up with demands on the front lines in the Invasion Corridor, so any stockpiles of Clantech that might have been on Huntress before were shipped out.

So to clarify this was a truly “ empty cupboards” situation right? All cached and warehouses on huntress were emptied out?

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

So to clarify this was a truly “ empty cupboards” situation right? All cached and warehouses on huntress were emptied out?

Pretty much

It bookends nicely with their whole impending economic collapse prior to REVIVAL which caused them to pull the whole Outbound Light Hail Mary pass in the first place

[BrianDavion]

My take away I like idea of the Smoke Jaguars becoming the special forces of the Star League. It fits them more, they certainly need replacement for the Black Hearts.  Rest of the Fidels still AWOL. (i'm only on page 119)

yeah and it was fun to see them basicly dueling with the death commandos whom really are their oppisite numbers

[Blkbr2020]

I’m hoping we get a novel covering that timeframe and moving forward. Having that entire CC regiment vanish when it jumped to New Earth scream (to me at least) that the Fidelis that did not become CSJ once more took out the regiment. We know they still had one warship left at the end of Forever Faithful. I asked in the writers section on the exact class but no reply yet. We know the fate of the Streaking Mist, but not the Hidden Destiny (if I remember the name correct from the epilogue).

It would be nice to see what the Fedelis are up to and if they join the Jags on new home with all the remaining civilians on New Home. Nothing in IKEO mention civilians so I’m assuming they stayed with the Fedelis, or those details were not important enough for the IKEO text count. They were expanding rapidly by the end of Forever Faithful and needed more habitable territory than Wildcat could support.

[Sjhernan3060]

In terms of configurations for mechs for the jags final stand if given the choice a typical mad as heck jaguar would opt for a “ knife fighter” configuration right?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

For the final stand, I think it's more "what do we actually have the parts and ammo for?" when it comes to configurations.  If all that's left are a bunch of ultra 2s, congratulations, that's what's getting stuck on your mech.

[Hellraiser]

yeah and it was fun to see them basicly dueling with the death commandos whom really are their oppisite numbers

What book is that in?

[tassa_kay]

What book is that in?

IlKhan's Eyes Only.

[Sjhernan3060]

Recognizing that the number of Protomech prototypes on huntress was pretty vague ( what do think the min max of protos fought in that campaign?

[Blkbr2020]

Twilight of the Clans had the typical FASA phonebook lists for all the battles on Huntress. I dont have my copy handy but that should list them all out I think?

[Alan Grant]

Bikbr2020 is correct. That book breaks down the complete forces of both sides.

Within the Watchman Galaxy's 48th Battle Cluster there was a ProtoMech Binary.

ProtoMech Binary
Alpha Star
Minotaur
Gorgon
Roc
Hydra
Satyr

Bravo Star
Harpy
Siren
Centaur
Roc
Hydra

Then in the Iron Guard Galaxy's 33rd Assault Cluster it lists the exact same ProtoMech unit in name and composition as listed above, they are identical. Very copy/paste to me.

I will say it just lists 1 ProtoMech type for each Point. And we know that Protos can mix and match in points. So I'm not sure what to do with that. Maybe at the time of publication it was conceived that protomech points would be pure, 1 model only. Like a point of BA.

I think if I was going to use that to build a unit today. I'd imagine each Star as having a Point's worth of those machines. For example in Alpha Star. I'd conceive of it as having 5 Minotaurs (total, across the Star), and 5 Gorgons (total, across the Star) and on through the whole list. Then I'd mix and match to create actual points that better fit what I wanted.

EDIT: I see now in Scenario 4 of Twilight of the Clans, ProtoMechs are part of the Clan force in the following composition.

Binary ProtoMech, Alpha Star
Point 1: 2 Harpies, Gorgon, 2 Minotaurs
Point 2: 2 Centaurs, Roc, 2 Gorgons
Point 3: 5 Rocs
Point 4: 2 Hydras, 2 Rocs, Gorgon
Point 5: 3 Sirens, 2 Satyrs

There's another mixed Star of Protos in Scenario 5, not exactly the same. I don't have time to copy that one. If you really want it, say so and I can circle back to this. But I think it serves to answer the question. I think you wanted to know many Protos you were, there were 4 stars worth of them, of virtually or literally all the Generation 1 models that were introduced in TRO: 3060.

[Sjhernan3060]

Bikbr2020 is correct. That book breaks down the complete forces of both sides.

Within the Watchman Galaxy's 48th Battle Cluster there was a ProtoMech Binary.

ProtoMech Binary
Alpha Star
Minotaur
Gorgon
Roc
Hydra
Satyr

Bravo Star
Harpy
Siren
Centaur
Roc
Hydra

Then in the Iron Guard Galaxy's 33rd Assault Cluster it lists the exact same ProtoMech unit in name and composition as listed above, they are identical. Very copy/paste to me.

I will say it just lists 1 ProtoMech type for each Point. And we know that Protos can mix and match in points. So I'm not sure what to do with that. Maybe at the time of publication it was conceived that protomech points would be pure, 1 model only. Like a point of BA.

I think if I was going to use that to build a unit today. I'd imagine each Star as having a Point's worth of those machines. For example in Alpha Star. I'd conceive of it as having 5 Minotaurs (total, across the Star), and 5 Gorgons (total, across the Star) and on through the whole list. Then I'd mix and match to create actual points that better fit what I wanted.

EDIT: I see now in Scenario 4 of Twilight of the Clans, ProtoMechs are part of the Clan force in the following composition.

Binary ProtoMech, Alpha Star
Point 1: 2 Harpies, Gorgon, 2 Minotaurs
Point 2: 2 Centaurs, Roc, 2 Gorgons
Point 3: 5 Rocs
Point 4: 2 Hydras, 2 Rocs, Gorgon
Point 5: 3 Sirens, 2 Satyrs

There's another mixed Star of Protos in Scenario 5, not exactly the same. I don't have time to copy that one. If you really want it, say so and I can circle back to this. But I think it serves to answer the question. I think you wanted to know many Protos you were, there were 4 stars worth of them, of virtually or literally all the Generation 1 models that were introduced in TRO: 3060.

Thanks that’s very helpful I wonder if “ Joe smoke jaguar” the basic warrior who was not involved with the planning of this super secret weapon was freaked out when he saw them