Author Topic: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom  (Read 178497 times)

Ran Felsner

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #990 on: 19 January 2025, 07:15:33 »
A quick question on the naval stars ... (I will admit I have kind of forgotten about the Ravens).  Are the naval stars still the same as FM 3145 ?
     Or have they been reorganized somehow ?

Thanks in advance!

Mendrugo

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #991 on: 19 January 2025, 08:02:57 »
Should be the same, but the Ravens got some extra ships, so they may either have reinforced Naval Stars or stand up a new one.

Also, Star Admiral Jezebel Sukhanov lost her command, relegated to sibko training duties, with Galaxy Commander Grady Magnus commanding both his Galaxy and her former Naval Star. 

The Sukhanovs are...displeased...about this turn of events.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #992 on: 19 January 2025, 12:52:27 »
The Sukhanovs are...displeased...about this turn of events.

The snow Ravens are playing their Games of Thro..uhm bloodhouses
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tassa_kay

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #993 on: 19 January 2025, 13:26:28 »
Also, Star Admiral Jezebel Sukhanov lost her command, relegated to sibko training duties

The same Jezebel Sukhanov from Shrapnel? That's nifty! Wouldn't mind seeing Fleur again, either.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #994 on: 19 January 2025, 13:29:14 »
The same Jezebel Sukhanov from Shrapnel? That's nifty! Wouldn't mind seeing Fleur again, either.

The same.  If you look at the date of "Ascending the Pecking Order," it takes place while Jezebel's Naval Star is off having adventures without her.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

tassa_kay

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #995 on: 19 January 2025, 13:34:49 »
The same.  If you look at the date of "Ascending the Pecking Order," it takes place while Jezebel's Naval Star is off having adventures without her.

That story (which is one of my favorites I've read in any issue of Shrapnel) really does a great job of defining the Raven-centric, the-Outworlders-are-just-tools-to-be-used school of thought that IKEO was describing in Grady Magnus' biography (the opposing view to his own). I love that we're actually getting these kinds of details with the Ravens now; they're LONG overdue.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #996 on: 20 January 2025, 04:44:22 »
In terms of the Outworlders: you think they might start thinking that the Ravens are not as good as partners as thought? AMC units accompanied the Raven fleet and witnessed the Liao burning. Would they perhaps start to think "Are we the baddies?" After all the Outworlds were usually NOT the attackers
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CJC070

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #997 on: 20 January 2025, 07:28:08 »
In terms of the Outworlders: you think they might start thinking that the Ravens are not as good as partners as thought? AMC units accompanied the Raven fleet and witnessed the Liao burning. Would they perhaps start to think "Are we the baddies?" After all the Outworlds were usually NOT the attackers

If there is a split hopefully it’s not as “dramatic” as we saw with the Ghost Bears.

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #998 on: 20 January 2025, 07:48:14 »
In terms of the Outworlders: you think they might start thinking that the Ravens are not as good as partners as thought? AMC units accompanied the Raven fleet and witnessed the Liao burning. Would they perhaps start to think "Are we the baddies?" After all the Outworlds were usually NOT the attackers

If the Outworlders can get over the Ravens glassing Galedon V, which was way worse and a lot closer to home, I doubt they're gonna give much of a damn about what happened to Chang-an.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #999 on: 20 January 2025, 11:42:07 »
If the Outworlders can get over the Ravens glassing Galedon V, which was way worse and a lot closer to home, I doubt they're gonna give much of a damn about what happened to Chang-an.

Galedon V was retaliation for an attack against the Ravens in Outworlds Space. They might be perhaps feel like "Ok they attacked us". and later they demanded several concessions from the Ravens when they found out the Ravens overreacted. Of course now the Outworlders are the junior partners in their own home so I would think you might be right
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tassa_kay

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1000 on: 20 January 2025, 11:48:52 »
Galedon V was retaliation for an attack against the Ravens in Outworlds Space. They might be perhaps feel like "Ok they attacked us". and later they demanded several concessions from the Ravens when they found out the Ravens overreacted. Of course now the Outworlders are the junior partners in their own home so I would think you might be right

Galedon V threatened to bring the wrath of the Combine, the Alliance's immediate neighbor and a historical aggressor to boot, down on the Outworlders' heads, and this was during the Ravens' already-delicate negotiations with the Alliance to boot. The bombardment of Liao is much less likely to have the same effect.
« Last Edit: 20 January 2025, 11:52:34 by tassa_kay »
"Social media made y'all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it." - Mike Tyson

My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
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Jellico

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1001 on: 20 January 2025, 12:58:07 »
The Capellans brought out the nukes first. Massive over reaction and punishment has been the standard response to nukes since the Second Succession War. That time it wasn't lead to the Jihad. I don't think this will be a hard sell in the Alliance.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1002 on: 21 January 2025, 00:43:39 »
Though it might sour the Wolves relation with the Ravens as apparently the Ravens did this on their own initiative. And IKEO made it sound as if Alaric does not want to paint HIS Star League as the baddies (after all Orbital bombardment is the thing that made the Jaguars the number 1 enemy of the IS). Though maybe someone should give Alaric the Reunification book so he can read just how bad the real Star League was
That what does not kill us has made it's last mistake!

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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1003 on: 21 January 2025, 01:18:54 »

Alaric can't really complain too much since it was Capellans who whipped out WMDs first



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Metallgewitter

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1004 on: 21 January 2025, 01:46:43 »
Alaric can't really complain too much since it was Capellans who whipped out WMDs first

Sure but wasn't that just once (on New Earth)? I haven't finished the full book but that was more of a warning. And it already backfired as it enraged the Clanners
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Gaiiten

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1005 on: 21 January 2025, 02:34:54 »
Alaric can't really complain too much since it was Capellans who whipped out WMDs first
Using WMDs against Clanners is very, very ill-advised idea.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1006 on: 21 January 2025, 03:16:19 »
Using WMDs against Clanners is very, very ill-advised idea.

That's explicitly why the RAF didn't use their arsenal to turn the Zenith and Nadir jump points into a nuclear firestorm.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Cannonshop

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1007 on: 21 January 2025, 04:11:45 »
That's explicitly why the RAF didn't use their arsenal to turn the Zenith and Nadir jump points into a nuclear firestorm.

they didn't have the assets to DO THAT.  You don't hinge your defense on a couple of stations if you've invested in knowing how to fight in space (fixed fortifications-a testimony to blind and oblivious levels of optimism just as soon as indirect fire artillery, airstrikes, or vertical envelopment become possible.  In space it's even less intelligent than on the ground, since your angles of vulnerability go from directional to all directions, including 'down'.)

they didn't have the assets, because in all of Battletech's universe navies and air forces exist to do one thing: escort ground forces to ground targets.

Therefore, nobody had the ability to contemplate doing that-the idea would make as much sense as telling someone to teleport their Abrams tank to the moon, minus teleportation technology.

The concept of interception is simply too difficult for in-universe forces to grasp, much less execute.  Thus, they (just like the previous administrations) chose to pretend jump points were narrow inlets that could be fortified like the Dardnelles, with the same result that every OTHER national authority that tried that had-but with even fewer resources, and the same predictable outcome.

When someone does the same thing that failed last time, or the last three times, it's usually because they literally can't imagine NOT doing it that way.

It's like what happened to Phalanx fighters when they ran into Roman Cohorts-phalanxes failed, but they kept using them because they literally didn't have the training or background to use something else.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1008 on: 21 January 2025, 04:23:24 »
It was discussed in one of the pre-invasion novels.  When they laid out the RAF defense plan of swarming incoming Wolf transports and escort with wave after wave of fighters, the question of using nukes was raised.  Wave-after-wave of fighters, each packing an Alamo on their center pylon, could have dramatically tipped the scales of the overall engagement.  However, Stone feared that if nukes were used but failed to halt the Wolf advance, the Clans might retaliate by burning Terra to a cinder, so he ordered them not to be used.

IKEO certifies that the RAF had a large nuclear arsenal cached at a Castle Brian, and that at least 20 were missing by the time the Wolves took control.  One showed up in Seattle, the rest are still in the wild, as far as we know.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1009 on: 21 January 2025, 04:44:39 »
It was discussed in one of the pre-invasion novels.  When they laid out the RAF defense plan of swarming incoming Wolf transports and escort with wave after wave of fighters, the question of using nukes was raised.  Wave-after-wave of fighters, each packing an Alamo on their center pylon, could have dramatically tipped the scales of the overall engagement.  However, Stone feared that if nukes were used but failed to halt the Wolf advance, the Clans might retaliate by burning Terra to a cinder, so he ordered them not to be used.

IKEO certifies that the RAF had a large nuclear arsenal cached at a Castle Brian, and that at least 20 were missing by the time the Wolves took control.  One showed up in Seattle, the rest are still in the wild, as far as we know.

Not to mention not all nukes the RAF had were "harmless" nukes. Several of those were laced with cobatd which means unlike the "clean" nukes their fallout would salt Terra for a long time. The WoB actually salted parts of the US (the Dallas regin) with cobalt laced nukes. Though considering how the Clans have this distinct advantage what else is left? The tried and true "fighter to the bridge" kamikaze? Or the Robert Davion burial meaning crashing assault Dropships into Warships? This really feels like James McKenna's attempt of bringing back all planets into the fold of the Hegemony: the only power with Warships but the scope is way too big. The new Star League doesn't have the manpower to defeat everyone
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Cannonshop

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1010 on: 21 January 2025, 05:26:11 »
Not to mention not all nukes the RAF had were "harmless" nukes. Several of those were laced with cobatd which means unlike the "clean" nukes their fallout would salt Terra for a long time. The WoB actually salted parts of the US (the Dallas regin) with cobalt laced nukes. Though considering how the Clans have this distinct advantage what else is left? The tried and true "fighter to the bridge" kamikaze? Or the Robert Davion burial meaning crashing assault Dropships into Warships? This really feels like James McKenna's attempt of bringing back all planets into the fold of the Hegemony: the only power with Warships but the scope is way too big. The new Star League doesn't have the manpower to defeat everyone

If used on the ground? yes.  If used at the jump points, or during the burn toward terra? not so much.  But again, the problem here, is that while everyone has Nukes, everyone holds on to them to use them on the ground, even when they know they're the best equalizer in space...because everyone with strategic control, is a ground forces officer and...well...they can't really grasp a Naval defense strategy. (Hence, using fixed installations at jump points as if they were narrow inlets, when that's never worked, and is always tried.)

Stone? was a ground forces guy, he thinks like a ground forces guy, (well, badly like a ground forces guy it turns out, but still...) He therefore worried about radioactive fallout that would NOT be anywhere near the planet, because like everyone ELSE in his inner circle, he thinks 'ground warfare'.

Hence the entire defense "Plan" for Sol being a crude copy of what he ran into during SCOUR, which in turn, was a crude copy of what failed for Amaris during Liberation.

The grasp just wasn't, and isn't, there to understand concepts needed for a functional naval defense-nobody's done it since the Taurians did at Malagrotta, and while it worked there, the Hegemony and their allies used raw numbers of larger ships to batter their way through during teh Reunification War, then everyone developed a phobia about Nukes thanks to the succession wars, where ground generals nuked the hell out of cities on planetary surfaces.

The basic concepts he'd have needed to execute a defense like that, just aren't understood or practiced in the world of the 32nd century, and haven't been for probably five centuries or more.

The tragedy here, is that if he hadn't dismissed it, and the strategy had been executed competently, he'd have broken TWO Clans in quick succession with the forces listed in the sourcebook.

But that, in turn, requires competent execution-which I doubt the RAF could've pulled off, given they are not, and have never been, space-naval primaries-their navy is built on the same thinking eveyrone else uses, so minus getting the Belters to work it out and practice it over the last ten years or so?  He likely couldn't have executed that strategy anyway, gear or not.

Nuclear warheads aren't what's missing here, it's doctrine and lateral thinking that's in short supply.

The problem here, is that while we've got analogues for Napoleon, Ceasar, Lee and Grant, what we don't have in the setting, is a Yi or Nelson figure...and we likely can't or it would be setting-breaking.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2025, 05:29:31 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1011 on: 21 January 2025, 10:50:14 »
Using a salted nuke to destroy a Kerensky historical site is a move calculated to enrage the Clans. No Clanner is going to complain publicly about the response.

Spheroids, on the other hand, are going to wonder why flattening a heavily populated city is a proportionate response to an attack that killed a small team of scientists. Expect that to come up when Alaric asks any of the Houses to join the Star League.

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1012 on: 21 January 2025, 11:03:38 »
I don't think Daoshen was intending to provoke the response he got.  Instead, his goal was to signal that he'd be conducting a scorched earth withdrawal.  Anything of historical/symbolic/emotional importance for the Clans would be subject to annihilation, leaving the advancing Clans with nothing but irradiated rubble.

New Earth wasn't the only instance of this policy - just the one with the biggest boom.  On Liberty, the Capellans booby trapped the Quantico Marine Fortification, hoping to lure the Wolves in and blow it up with them inside.  When they failed to take the bait, they blew it up anyways.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1013 on: 21 January 2025, 11:54:21 »
Probably also a warning what will happen should they enter the territory of the Confederation. While you could say the bombing of Liao was meant as a shock to the Capellans it also got rid of Daoshen whose leadership made matters worse for the last years. Plus whatever footage the Confederation managed to get out it will serve as a rousing propaganda tool and maybe even used as a "no holds barred" approach in terms of defense.
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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1014 on: 21 January 2025, 14:11:38 »
One factor that may limit the Inner Sphere response to the Liao bombardment is that Daoshen has been pissing off pretty much every single one of them. He cheerfully attacked the Combine (without actually telling them their alliance was no more, to boot), basically kidnapped and murdered the previous Duke of New Syritis, got his former allies in Andurien/Canopus to turn on him... between all that and his general lunacy, I'm pretty positive pretty much everybody in a position to object to the bombardment utterly hates Daoshen. They will probably accept the anti-nuke retaliation story because they WANT to accept it, so I don't think the Inner Sphere will really raise much protest except insofar as it helps them diplomatically to act offended; nobody is going to charge to avenge Daoshen for years of f**king around and finally finding out. The real lingering takeaway from the event is probably Alaric realizing how little control he has over the Ravens, who along with the Ghost Bears are potentially going to drag his Star League into other conflicts thanks to their attacks on the Fed Suns and Combine.

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1015 on: 21 January 2025, 16:00:21 »
Using a salted nuke to destroy a Kerensky historical site is a move calculated to enrage the Clans. No Clanner is going to complain publicly about the response.

Spheroids, on the other hand, are going to wonder why flattening a heavily populated city is a proportionate response to an attack that killed a small team of scientists. Expect that to come up when Alaric asks any of the Houses to join the Star League.

Spheroids aren't dumb, they lived nextdoor to Clans for almost a century now and know exactly what it's important to them

Like I said it was Capellans who threw the first nuke and they knew exactly what the target meant to Clans just like everyone else knows

Up until then Stat League 3 played by all the accepted rules the same rules that Daoshen intentionally broke

Everyone in the Inner Sphere knows who pooped the carpet here and it wasn't the Clans


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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1016 on: 21 January 2025, 17:26:31 »
Yeah, no. The nuke dropped on the old SLDF fort does not in any way excuse or justify the Ravens' actions, just as their actions on Galedon V weren't excused or justified (hell, even less so in that case since the Combine didn't actually destroy their naval Star). If anyone "pooped the carpet" here, it was the Ravens, and IKEO makes that pretty clear. Daoshen threw the first nuke, sure... and killed literally a handful of scientists. The Ravens straight up murdered millions of civilians over hurt feelings, and did so against Alaric's specific orders. No one's likely to care that much outside of the CapCon, but it's definitely going to make the new Star League's job that much more difficult at the very least. For a Clan that prides itself on its political savvy, the Ravens sure are proving to be kind of bad at it.
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BaachicLitNerd

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1017 on: 21 January 2025, 18:16:58 »
The Raven's bombardment probably isn't going to be a particularly useful selling point for Spheroid powers judging whether to join the new League, no. But that doesn't mean it's bad politics from the Ravens. What they want is to get the most influence over and resources out of the Star League. Right now their main competition on that front is the Sea Foxes. Non-Clan powers joining without knowing exactly who weilds the big stick around here would potentially dilute their influence, so delaying that until after they establish some durable authority isn't a bad outcome. And while Alaric told them not to do it behind closed doors, publicly he's committed to thanking them for their actions as part of his totally well thought out strategic response that he definitely totally had. They gave him the choice between "publicly thank the Ravens for winning a war the Wolves couldn't" or "publicly admitting that his new authority as IlKhan and First Lord doesn't actually mean diddly because he can't meaningfully compel the Ravens to follow his wishes." Both options stink for Alaric, but one stinks like spoiled milk and the other stinks like a convention of skunks who work in waste water treatment held at a garbage dump. Either way the Ravens get to cement their military ascendancy within the Star League, and at a moment when they needed a win after losing the BSLA to the Sea Foxes. Smart politics indeed.
« Last Edit: 21 January 2025, 18:38:06 by BaachicLitNerd »

Cannonshop

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1018 on: 21 January 2025, 18:39:27 »
Yeah, no. The nuke dropped on the old SLDF fort does not in any way excuse or justify the Ravens' actions, just as their actions on Galedon V weren't excused or justified (hell, even less so in that case since the Combine didn't actually destroy their naval Star). If anyone "pooped the carpet" here, it was the Ravens, and IKEO makes that pretty clear. Daoshen threw the first nuke, sure... and killed literally a handful of scientists. The Ravens straight up murdered millions of civilians over hurt feelings, and did so against Alaric's specific orders. No one's likely to care that much outside of the CapCon, but it's definitely going to make the new Star League's job that much more difficult at the very least. For a Clan that prides itself on its political savvy, the Ravens sure are proving to be kind of bad at it.

AHm.... Turtle BAY?  Londerholm?  These are not western democracies seeking UN approval here, these are Clanners.  That's something that like it or not, comes with some baggage...to include taking a big stick to somebody who's already escalated with nukes-on-the-ground, (complete with persistent fallout that reaches a considerable way furteher than the impact zone thanks to most worlds having weather patterns and Cobalt bombs are the gift that keeps giving millenia afterward).

It was a relatively measured response-the Ravens didn't deliberately salt it with persistent radiological hazards or drop persistent chemical weapons or bioweapons.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Raven Alliance: The Shiny Red Button of Orbital Doom
« Reply #1019 on: 21 January 2025, 19:40:15 »
Yeah, no. The nuke dropped on the old SLDF fort does not in any way excuse or justify the Ravens' actions, just as their actions on Galedon V weren't excused or justified (hell, even less so in that case since the Combine didn't actually destroy their naval Star). If anyone "pooped the carpet" here, it was the Ravens, and IKEO makes that pretty clear. Daoshen threw the first nuke, sure... and killed literally a handful of scientists. The Ravens straight up murdered millions of civilians over hurt feelings, and did so against Alaric's specific orders. No one's likely to care that much outside of the CapCon, but it's definitely going to make the new Star League's job that much more difficult at the very least. For a Clan that prides itself on its political savvy, the Ravens sure are proving to be kind of bad at it.

at the same time, Fire Scorpion's right that the inner sphere knows who the clans are, and yeah are going to understand Daoshen DELIBERATELY provoked the clans
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