Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III

[ArkRoyalRavager]

I do realize that when the same enemies are fighting at the same border, it’s gonna start to feel repetitive, but the FS/DC border really, really feels like I’ve seen this before. It’s not inherently bad as it kind of channels some old 4SW vibes and that may be the goal.

Big thing for me with the Horses is I want to see a couple things:
A) I want to see them do something, anything, of their own initiative. Most of their lore feels like it’s either “here’s another awesome thing they made that proliferated and other groups use more than they do,” or “and then the horses were another clan’s willing minions”
B) I want to see them evolve. EoT: Honor is right that they’ve been pretty stagnant.

If Peter Cobb is a bit of a repeat character, but he enables those two things, I’ll take it.

More like 1SW vibes.

Peter Cobb is a chance for the Horses to actually become great, and he's not a repeat of James Cobb. James led the Clan to survival in a chaotic time, but Peter can lead it to new heights in a time of opportunity.

[tassa_kay]

Peter Cobb, like every other character, has the potential of being able to do anything the writers want him to do. The problem is that, after an entire book revolving around him, we haven't even gotten a hint as to what that might be. Which might be by design, because TPTB might still be in the process of figuring that out. Which begs the question: where do the Horses go from here?

They're pretty clearly not planning to walk back their rejection of Alaric's Star League, they're in absolutely no shape to even think about getting buck with the RasDom even with all of its problems, and the book seems to indicate that they'll be focusing on rebuilding and expanding, so the only thing I can think of is that they'll inevitably return to the Hinterlands to finish what they started, or maybe get more involved in the Barrens. There's no much else for them to do.

I wish we were given a chance to see the Horses grappling with the fact that there's an ilClan and a Clan-led Star League coming to pass (which is basically prophecy fulfillment for the Clans) and they're not involved with it. Why is this not creating more internal conflicts within the ranks like what we saw in the RasDom? Shouldn't all of this be a bigger deal to them than what we've seen so far?

[CJC070]

I wish we were given a chance to see the Horses grappling with the fact that there's an ilClan and a Clan-led Star League coming to pass (which is basically prophecy fulfillment for the Clans) and they're not involved with it. Why is this not creating more internal conflicts within the ranks like what we saw in the RasDom? Shouldn't all of this be a bigger deal to them than what we've seen so far?

The Horses tried to challenge Alaric and although we saw through Peters eyes what happened the “official story” probably centres around Alaric snubbing the Khans (in turn the entire CHH).  The Ghost Bears recognized Alaric and when asked to join the new Star League they said it had to be discussed.  For reasons only known (so far) to Alaric he openly insulted the Ghost Dominion.  There were no spin doctors to say who was directly was at fault and a lot of people sought someone to blame.

In addition the CHH also invaded former Falcon holdings (see Operation Stampede) and like the events in Dominion Divided proved a successful campaign can unify any faction.

In the end it may be a big deal but I see any future conflict may centre around the Periphery since (to my knowledge) no faction in the Tamar region has any wish to engage the CHH as of 3150.

[tassa_kay]

The Horses tried to challenge Alaric and although we saw through Peters eyes what happened the “official story” probably centres around Alaric snubbing the Khans (in turn the entire CHH).  The Ghost Bears recognized Alaric and when asked to join the new Star League they said it had to be discussed.  For reasons only known (so far) to Alaric he openly insulted the Ghost Dominion.  There were no spin doctors to say who was directly was at fault and a lot of people sought someone to blame.

Not the case, actually. This book has Fulk Lassanerra directly stating that it was Gottfried Amirault that refused to acknowledge Alaric as ilKhan in front of the entire Clan Council. It was laid at his feet as a condemnation of his leadership (among a lot of other things, lol).

In addition the CHH also invaded former Falcon holdings (see Operation Stampede) and like the events in Dominion Divided proved a successful campaign can unify any faction.

Not the case, either. Operation Stampede had middling results at best, and some really embarrassing losses for the Horses. Another charge that Fulk added to the list during the Council meeting. It seems that getting rid of Gottfried has been more unifying for the Horses than anything, but Fulk's not looking too much better yet.

In the end it may be a big deal but I see any future conflict may centre around the Periphery since (to my knowledge) no faction in the Tamar region has any wish to engage the CHH as of 3150.

It is a big deal. It's the biggest deal. A Clan just won Terra, has been acknowledged as the ilClan by its peers (except for the Horses, and that's apparently only because of Gottfriend), and has declared to the Inner Sphere that they're finally restoring the true Star League. This is as close to an equivalent of the Second Coming from the Clan sociological perspective as could possibly happen, the entire reason the Clans even exist in the first place... and we haven't gotten to see the Horses really acknowledge that outside of Peter lecturing Gottfried about it (sidenote: you know your Khan's got to go when he doesn't have you in a Circle of Equals for that, the Loremaster had to send him out of the room, lol).

Maybe we'll get more in the future, but I can only speak to what's out there now. I'd like to be optimistic here though and think something big is in the works now that we have an ilClan and a Star League that needs building, because I've noticed a lot of cliffhangers coming out of the post-ilClan material (like the RasDom's random sneak attack on the Combine, the FWL attack on the Wolf Empire, etc), and it almost feels like we're in the setup phase of whatever's coming next.

I hope that's where we're at with the Horses, because it's been a pretty disjointed journey for them for a while now (there's been, what, three line developers and a change of ownership since the Horses' Dark Age story began?), and I feel like that's causing things to get lost by the wayside, like the Horses' good relations with their lower castes that set them apart from their peers. I'd like to really see something great come out of all of this for them as they enter this bold new era.

[CJC070]

It is a big deal. It's the biggest deal. A Clan just won Terra, has been acknowledged as the ilClan by its peers (except for the Horses, and that's apparently only because of Gottfriend), and has declared to the Inner Sphere that they're finally restoring the true Star League. This is as close to an equivalent of the Second Coming from the Clan sociological perspective as could possibly happen, the entire reason the Clans even exist in the first place... and we haven't gotten to see the Horses really acknowledge that.

I misspoke I meant that if there is a conflict between the CHH and the Periphery Pirates it may not be a big deal compared to what else is going on.  Even after a hundred years no major faction has permitted the sales of mechs to any of the Barren States.  Last I heard there was (at most) 3 clusters of tanks, around 1 mixed regiment (at best), and whatever the Red Hunter managed to grab while headhunting.

On the whole acknowledgement I believe some have accepted that the Wolves are now the IKhan but with the lack of a HPG and distance more are on the wait and see.  In my head I have one saying that applies to Battletech victories “you have now claimed it, now can you hold it.”

[Metallgewitter]

It is a big deal. It's the biggest deal. A Clan just won Terra, has been acknowledged as the ilClan by its peers (except for the Horses, and that's apparently only because of Gottfriend), and has declared to the Inner Sphere that they're finally restoring the true Star League. This is as close to an equivalent of the Second Coming from the Clan sociological perspective as could possibly happen, the entire reason the Clans even exist in the first place... and we haven't gotten to see the Horses really acknowledge that outside of Peter lecturing Gottfried about it (sidenote: you know your Khan's got to go when he doesn't have you in a Circle of Equals for that, the Loremaster had to send him out of the room, lol).

Maybe we'll get more in the future, but I can only speak to what's out there now. I'd like to be optimistic here though and think something big is in the works now that we have an ilClan and a Star League that needs building, because I've noticed a lot of cliffhangers coming out of the post-ilClan material (like the RasDom's random sneak attack on the Combine, the FWL attack on the Wolf Empire, etc), and it almost feels like we're in the setup phase of whatever's coming next.

I hope that's where we're at with the Horses, because it's been a pretty disjointed journey for them for a while now (there's been, what, three line developers and a change of ownership since the Horses' Dark Age story began?), and I feel like that's causing things to get lost by the wayside, like the Horses' good relations with their lower castes that set them apart from their peers. I'd like to really see something great come out of all of this for them as they enter this bold new era.

An interesting point. For Clan culture Alaric's remark to then Kahn Gottfried was correct "A real warriors seizes the chance not begs for it" Which is funny considering how the Wolves got handed the keys to the Fortress and then invited the Falcons to weaken the Republic forces. There might be something more deeply rooted ion the Horses: their hatred for the Wolves. Remember Vlad Ward played the Horses (and payed a bigger prize then he thought of) and now his descendant (well as far as the Horses know) has captured Terra. Maybe that is what really stings the Horses and also leads to their unified "Screw you" to the Ilkhan. And if they have known what Alaric did to the Bears they might be thinking of keeping them at arms length and do their own thing (after all we have seen how Alaric has treated some of his supposed allies and this might be the deciding factor. Rather be the master of your own fate then become a pawn of someone who likes to screw everyone over)

[Shin_Fenris]

For Clan culture Alaric's remark to then Kahn Gottfried was correct "A real warriors seizes the chance not begs for it" Which is funny considering how the Wolves got handed the keys to the Fortress and then invited the Falcons to weaken the Republic forces.

That's not funny - that's further reinforcing Alaric's statement. He didn't beg Stone for the keys to the kingdom (and had no idea how his scientists came to their "solution" to penetrate the wall), he seized the opportunity the universe provided him, then invited the Falcons to do the same. Not like he requested that Malvina to come and soften up the Republic for him; he knew she'd come regardless.

I don't know how the future looks for the Horses but I'm really looking forward to the inevitable conflicts involving them and the "new" Star League.

[Orwell84]

And if they have known what Alaric did to the Bears they might be thinking of keeping them at arms length and do their own thing (after all we have seen how Alaric has treated some of his supposed allies and this might be the deciding factor. Rather be the master of your own fate then become a pawn of someone who likes to screw everyone over)

A fair point. My own suspicion is that Alaric doesn't want any Clan in the Star League capable of challenging him through sheer numbers alone. Hence his openly disrespecting the Khans of one such Clan for being too slow, possibly hoping the Horses will fight each other over the issue, and stirring up civil strife with the now-biggest Clan of all when the close-run plebiscite gave him an excuse.

[Metallgewitter]

A fair point. My own suspicion is that Alaric doesn't want any Clan in the Star League capable of challenging him through sheer numbers alone. Hence his openly disrespecting the Khans of one such Clan for being too slow, possibly hoping the Horses will fight each other over the issue, and stirring up civil strife with the now-biggest Clan of all when the close-run plebiscite gave him an excuse.

Tbf Alaric is doing what the Camerons did: weaken the members so that the Hegemony stands on top. In this case let the Wolves stand on top. The problem is though that the Wolves don't have the might of the old Hegemony. No real technological advantage or military advantage. Yes they have Terra but only that (and it's protective walls have a very limited life span left). If for example the Horses were serious about showing Alaric what's what they might have stampeded into the Wolf Empire or even the recent Republic conquests.

[trboturtle]

Tbf Alaric is doing what the Camerons did: weaken the members so that the Hegemony stands on top. In this case let the Wolves stand on top. The problem is though that the Wolves don't have the might of the old Hegemony. No real technological advantage or military advantage. Yes they have Terra but only that (and it's protective walls have a very limited life span left). If for example the Horses were serious about showing Alaric what's what they might have stampeded into the Wolf Empire or even the recent Republic conquests.

The Horse went after the Falcon worlds first because they were easier to attack and they're still angry at being used by Malvina and the Falcons. Going after the Wolf Empire worlds would have been more difficult, as they would have to hook around the Ghost Bears turf to get at the Wolf worlds. While The Horses' khans are pissed, they don't have the forces to bull-rush past the Bears and grab up the lightly defended worlds.

Craig

[Orwell84]

The Horse went after the Falcon worlds first because they were easier to attack and they're still angry at being used by Malvina and the Falcons. Going after the Wolf Empire worlds would have been more difficult, as they would have to hook around the Ghost Bears turf to get at the Wolf worlds. While The Horses' khans are pissed, they don't have the forces to bull-rush past the Bears and grab up the lightly defended worlds.

Craig

Indeed, and the nearest Wolf held systems are a quarter of the way across the Sphere. Trying to repeat the Wolf migration of '37 might actually be easier for the Horses, what with being less entwined with their 'native' populace, and the Falcons or Lyrans couldn't stop them at that point. But supposing they do overrun the Wolf Empire or split it with the FWL - they've given up an established OZ with compliant subjects for a new and more exposed one, with recently conquered worlds claimed by two large nations, and restive populations. Plus the whole raison d'etre for the Wolf migration in the first place has just been accomplished.

[Church14]

That's not funny - that's further reinforcing Alaric's statement. He didn't beg Stone for the keys to the kingdom (and had no idea how his scientists came to their "solution" to penetrate the wall), he seized the opportunity the universe provided him, then invited the Falcons to do the same. Not like he requested that Malvina to come and soften up the Republic for him; he knew she'd come regardless.

Uh….

He was invited by Stone, with the goal to faces wolves alone. That the scientists had the secret handed to them should hav e been tons of red flags. The ending of HotW and one of its few good scenes is Stone explaining how Alaric didn’t really earn his way to Terra and that the RotS tilted things in favor of tue Wolves once falcons arrived.

When Malvina arrives, they immediately agreed to not shoot each other so they could help soften up the Republic.

For that scene, the Horse Khans were in the wrong given the knowledge they had. Given the knowledge we have now, they were actually right. No clan earned their way to Terra and they all were invited. Not that Gottfried wasn’t being a childish fool, but he was accidentally correct

[Metallgewitter]

The Horse went after the Falcon worlds first because they were easier to attack and they're still angry at being used by Malvina and the Falcons. Going after the Wolf Empire worlds would have been more difficult, as they would have to hook around the Ghost Bears turf to get at the Wolf worlds. While The Horses' khans are pissed, they don't have the forces to bull-rush past the Bears and grab up the lightly defended worlds.

Craig

I often forget the map of the IS and how far out there the Horses are. My idea might only have worked if they had moved down the Falcon zone all the way down to Terra right next to the Bears. And considering how many worlds there are that would have been way too much. Gobbling up worlds in the abandoned Falcon OZ is the better idea then trying to rip into the crumbling Wolf Empire

[trboturtle]

I often forget the map of the IS and how far out there the Horses are. My idea might only have worked if they had moved down the Falcon zone all the way down to Terra right next to the Bears. And considering how many worlds there are that would have been way too much. Gobbling up worlds in the abandoned Falcon OZ is the better idea then trying to rip into the crumbling Wolf Empire

The Horses have a much smaller touman than most of the other IS Clans -- 40 clusters and three WarShips. Much smaller than either the Wolves or Falcons Pre-Terra. Hitting the Wolf worlds would have left them more exposed than hitting the Falcon worlds.

Craig

[wantec]

Not to mention, the Horses had already been working up plans to hit the Falcons. All it took was some fine tuning and then launching the attacks.

[Church14]

The Horses have a much smaller touman than most of the other IS Clans -- 40 clusters and three WarShips. Much smaller than either the Wolves or Falcons Pre-Terra. Hitting the Wolf worlds would have left them more exposed than hitting the Falcon worlds.

Craig

That puts their ground forces above Ravens, Foxes, Cats, and several great houses. Really only behind RasDom, pre Terra Wolves, pre Terra Falcons, and CapCon.

Of which… they are now larger than all but CapCon, and I think CCAF will take some losses in ilKEO

[ArkRoyalRavager]

What's ilKEO?

[ANS Kamas P81]

IlKhan's Eyes Only, a future sourcebook.

[Shin_Fenris]

Uh….

He was invited by Stone, with the goal to faces wolves alone. That the scientists had the secret handed to them should hav e been tons of red flags. The ending of HotW and one of its few good scenes is Stone explaining how Alaric didn’t really earn his way to Terra and that the RotS tilted things in favor of tue Wolves once falcons arrived.

When Malvina arrives, they immediately agreed to not shoot each other so they could help soften up the Republic.

For that scene, the Horse Khans were in the wrong given the knowledge they had. Given the knowledge we have now, they were actually right. No clan earned their way to Terra and they all were invited. Not that Gottfried wasn’t being a childish fool, but he was accidentally correct

I'm not sure I'm following your logic in-universe. Do -we- outside of the universe, with meta knowledge, know all of this? Absolutely. Does Alaric know any of this prior to the last scene of HotW? No.

Did Stone "invite" the Wolves? Not in the sense of "hey, Alaric, wanna come to Terra and duke it out?" Whether -you- think it's a red flag that the Scientist Caste "suddenly" had the answer or not is irrelevant; from an in-universe perspective, -every- power that knows about the Wall has spent literal years looking for ways around it. Neither Alaric nor any warrior in a position of authority knew the Scientists had the answer "given" to them; as far as they were aware, the Scientists unlocked the secret themselves and I saw nothing in-universe that'd have suggested anyone was like "oh, hey, weird, someone just left this data here for us, that's kinda weird."

Did Malvina and Alaric agree to focus on getting the RotS out of the way before fighting? Absolutely. But did Alaric say "hey, Malvina, wanna come to Terra 'cause I can't do it without you?" No. He knew she'd jump at the chance, it's why she was quick to agree to his terms. Only by beating another Clan on Terra was the ilKhanship going to mean anything to anyone. Had he just strolled in, killed everyone, and declared himself the winner, he for sure would have had the other Clans coming for him sooner rather than later.

Your last section invalidates any in-universe dispute with my original statement - "Given the knowledge WE (emphasis mine) have now..." We, the readers and players, know the behind the scenes manipulations going on but outside of a small handful of in-universe characters, they don't have the same degree of omniscience, so were the Horses correct? For sure. Does Alaric know the Horses are correct? Undoubtedly. Do the Horses know the Horses are correct? Not a chance lmao. Which is why I'm looking forward to seeing what they do next and where they go from here with their rejection of the ilKhan.

[Metallgewitter]

That puts their ground forces above Ravens, Foxes, Cats, and several great houses. Really only behind RasDom, pre Terra Wolves, pre Terra Falcons, and CapCon.

Of which… they are now larger than all but CapCon, and I think CCAF will take some losses in ilKEO

The concap already lost some regiments. 2-3 to the Marlette decption (one of the few good uses of the wall) then the damage done on New Syrtis and I think at least another two for their intelligence raid on Terra.

The Horses should have at least the freshest troops available as they haven't seen much recnet combat except their aborted attack on sudeten and some trials with the Bears
But as the Ilclan book stated the horses are having logistic issues due to stress put on their Jumpship fleet

[wantec]

IlKhan's Eyes Only, a future sourcebook.

I believe it was supposed to be the last book of the Tamar Rising, Empire Alone, Dominions Divided series as well as the overall starting point for the ilClan era.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

IlKhan's Eyes Only, a future sourcebook.

Thanks

I believe it was supposed to be the last book of the Tamar Rising, Empire Alone, Dominions Divided series as well as the overall starting point for the ilClan era.

Any rough ETA on this book?

[Church14]

I'm not sure I'm following your logic in-universe. Do -we- outside of the universe, with meta knowledge, know all of this? Absolutely. Does Alaric know any of this prior to the last scene of HotW? No.

Did Stone "invite" the Wolves? Not in the sense of "hey, Alaric, wanna come to Terra and duke it out?" Whether -you- think it's a red flag that the Scientist Caste "suddenly" had the answer or not is irrelevant; from an in-universe perspective, -every- power that knows about the Wall has spent literal years looking for ways around it. Neither Alaric nor any warrior in a position of authority knew the Scientists had the answer "given" to them; as far as they were aware, the Scientists unlocked the secret themselves and I saw nothing in-universe that'd have suggested anyone was like "oh, hey, weird, someone just left this data here for us, that's kinda weird."

Did Malvina and Alaric agree to focus on getting the RotS out of the way before fighting? Absolutely. But did Alaric say "hey, Malvina, wanna come to Terra 'cause I can't do it without you?" No. He knew she'd jump at the chance, it's why she was quick to agree to his terms. Only by beating another Clan on Terra was the ilKhanship going to mean anything to anyone. Had he just strolled in, killed everyone, and declared himself the winner, he for sure would have had the other Clans coming for him sooner rather than later.

Your last section invalidates any in-universe dispute with my original statement - "Given the knowledge WE (emphasis mine) have now..." We, the readers and players, know the behind the scenes manipulations going on but outside of a small handful of in-universe characters, they don't have the same degree of omniscience, so were the Horses correct? For sure. Does Alaric know the Horses are correct? Undoubtedly. Do the Horses know the Horses are correct? Not a chance lmao. Which is why I'm looking forward to seeing what they do next and where they go from here with their rejection of the ilKhan.

From Children of Kerensky, Alaric’s own inner thoughts:
“Someone has handed us the key to the Fortress door. Why would anyone do that? And who are they?”
Earlier in that scene, a scientist caste comments that the scientists were fully cognizant that they were handed the keys. In a file literally called “Keys to the Kingdom.” And they also pointed it that the complete lack of a trail explaining how it got there meant it was a professional who left it. There is zero room to pretend Alaric thought he and his clan earned his way to Terra.

Alaric knew he was invited. From day 1. Only later did he know it was straight from Stone.

Then later Alaric literally says he’s inviting the Falcons.

That doesn’t excuse the Horses khans. But Alaric was lying through his teeth in that scene.

[Metallgewitter]

From Children of Kerensky, Alaric’s own inner thoughts:
“Someone has handed us the key to the Fortress door. Why would anyone do that? And who are they?”
Earlier in that scene, a scientist caste comments that the scientists were fully cognizant that they were handed the keys. In a file literally called “Keys to the Kingdom.” And they also pointed it that the complete lack of a trail explaining how it got there meant it was a professional who left it. There is zero room to pretend Alaric thought he and his clan earned his way to Terra.

Alaric knew he was invited. From day 1. Only later did he know it was straight from Stone.

Then later Alaric literally says he’s inviting the Falcons.

That doesn’t excuse the Horses khans. But Alaric was lying through his teeth in that scene.

I expect that this particular part will be adressed in the coming Ilkhans eyes only. I suspect that Tucker is blanketing Terra with everything he has gotten from Stone and this was part of it. And while the Clan Watch denies it Alaric has to know how damaging these claims really are. Heck if it was really delivered without any trace just imagine if THIS knowledge alone propagates through the IS and IS clans. It would fuel the accusations of the Horses and plant doubt in the other Clans.

[Church14]

I expect that this particular part will be adressed in the coming Ilkhans eyes only. I suspect that Tucker is blanketing Terra with everything he has gotten from Stone and this was part of it. And while the Clan Watch denies it Alaric has to know how damaging these claims really are. Heck if it was really delivered without any trace just imagine if THIS knowledge alone propagates through the IS and IS clans. It would fuel the accusations of the Horses and plant doubt in the other Clans.

I would like to see the “dishonorable” parts of Alaric’s win brought to light as part of clan league shenanigans.

Though I’m curious how much that’ll affect the horses if Alaric’s lies at that specific moment come to light. The one most embarrassed (Gottfried) is already dead. I guess maybe Fulk or Fulk’s eventual successor uses it as an excuse?

[wantec]

Thanks

Any rough ETA on this book?

Beats me, Cubby would be the one to ask, up in General Discussion in the upcoming releases thread. And I'm just guessing on the contents based on what hasn't been covered and what I would put in it. I don't have any hand in writing that one.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Beats me, Cubby would be the one to ask, up in General Discussion in the upcoming releases thread. And I'm just guessing on the contents based on what hasn't been covered and what I would put in it. I don't have any hand in writing that one.

I’ve asked a couple of times but no real answer.

[wantec]

Yeah I know the feeling. While the authors may not be working on any Kickstarter stuff, it seems like overall a bunch of things have been slowed in production while KS things are being worked on as well.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Beats me, Cubby would be the one to ask, up in General Discussion in the upcoming releases thread. And I'm just guessing on the contents based on what hasn't been covered and what I would put in it. I don't have any hand in writing that one.

Thank you wantec.

Hope it advances the story much more

[Church14]

Thank you wantec.

Hope it advances the story much more

It should advance Terra about 12 months past our latest glimpse. I refuse to believe a lot of clan shenanigans in Terra don’t happen in that year