Author Topic: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us  (Read 88292 times)

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #870 on: 29 November 2023, 15:43:13 »
You forgot ProtoMechs, Primitive Mechs, IndyMechs, Conventional Fighters, Conventional Infantry, and Mounted Infantry. All of those have been denied the Scorpions from what was once their height of interesting-ness.
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #871 on: 29 November 2023, 16:02:36 »
You forgot ProtoMechs, Primitive Mechs, IndyMechs, Conventional Fighters, Conventional Infantry, and Mounted Infantry. All of those have been denied the Scorpions from what was once their height of interesting-ness.

All acceptable sacrifices on the altar of having their flawless, boring little utopia. Probably the first time in BattleTech history where fleshing out a faction made them less interesting.
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Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #872 on: 29 November 2023, 16:45:32 »
You forgot ProtoMechs, Primitive Mechs, IndyMechs, Conventional Fighters, Conventional Infantry, and Mounted Infantry. All of those have been denied the Scorpions from what was once their height of interesting-ness.

IndyMechs, Conventional Fighters, Conventional Infantry, and Mounted Infantry are all on Scorpion MUL and used copiously

Several designs like Daedalus, Mithras, Tiger and Korvin are unique to them (just off the top of my head), nobody else is rocking those

Nobody uses Primitive Mechs anymore, even Marians have moved forward, it has nothing to do with Scorpions

Now, should CGL fix Protomech lore and make them look not like rejected D'n'D drafts then sure, bring them on

But as long as they have dollar store 40k lore and look like avatars of derp please, no proto


All acceptable sacrifices on the altar of having their flawless, boring little utopia. Probably the first time in BattleTech history where fleshing out a faction made them less interesting.

Some people have weird definition of utopia  :grin:

Plus that age old correlation between military inventory and societal structure, eh?



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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #873 on: 29 November 2023, 19:41:19 »
Bonus points if the Home Clans' Protos (maybe with some of that delightful Society tech incorporated into 'em) embarrass them on the battlefield and show them that getting rid of Protos was a mistake.

What's the saying? If it needs Clan Society tech to be useful, it was never worth those resources in the first place.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #874 on: 29 November 2023, 20:38:14 »
What's the saying? If it needs Clan Society tech to be useful, it was never worth those resources in the first place.

What’s that other saying, the one that actually exists? Oh, right: waste not, want not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #875 on: 30 November 2023, 02:50:03 »
That's crazy talk. The largest Clans in the Dark Age/ilClan era didn't field numbers nearly this large, with the sole exception of the Wolves and Falcons during their drive to Terra (the Wolves at their 3145 peak numbered 75 Clusters, the Falcons in the 50s). What could the Scorpions possibly be doing that would warrant such a bloated military? Their only proximate threat, the Home Clans, haven't been heard from in literally decades. Their closest Inner Sphere neighbors besides the Foxes are the Lyrans, who can't even keep their realm together right now, and the Hinterlands. The Empire could throw a few Galaxies together (Alpha, Hellion, Seeker, Omega as a reserve) as an expeditionary force, maybe even assign it one of their WarShips, and carve out space wherever they wanted.

I missed the digits on the first read but these numbers are wild

70 is huge, 150 is mental

Latter one isn't "war-against-major-faction" size, it's "let's-conquer-clan-homeworlds-and-be-back-before-christmas" size

Forget Lyrans, you could invade Federated Suns with that and expect to do good

And Scorpion clusters aren't some protomechs+vehicles grade, it's good old fashioned mechs+aerospace with some token vehicles because Nikki K said so

It's overkill with all caps

3145 Wolves had 75 Clusters, but the Empire has to ward against Homies, which at last count numbered 4 Clans. Both sides have access to Society tech, but so far the Empire hasn't even bulked up their Touman with enough regular tech units. Pre-WoR combined strength of these 4 Homie Clans would be 150+ Clusters, and they still have WarShips outnumbering the Empire's 3. So yes, just for adequate defense(assuming Homies get to rebuild and expand), the Empire needs 70+ to minimum 150 Clusters, not counting expansion of the Imperial Navy.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2023, 02:52:20 by ArkRoyalRavager »

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #876 on: 30 November 2023, 02:59:24 »
Your math is a little off a Cluster is actually the equivalent to a Regiment.  Remember even by the end of the Clan invasion 8 Inner Sphere mechs = 5 Clan mechs.


On the other hand as of right now I foresee the Homeworld Clans returning only if CGL decides to resurrect the Protos.  Yes they exist but unless the come out in plastic I will probably not touch them.

Key words: By the end of the Clan invasion.

By the CGL 3145 reboot, everyone in the IS is either building Clantech or buying as much as is affordable. That makes a Cluster roughly equivalent to a Battalion. So it would be better for Clan factions to field at least 2 Clusters per Regiment faced or 3 Clusters for slight superiority.

LCAF has been mostly fielding regimental-sized units, CCAF and DCMS always field regiments, while AFFS is realizing just how limited an LCT is in a major war and are actively expanding with RCTs as the standard again. The IS Clans will catch up one way or another, or lose in attrition, so it's reasonable for the Empire to follow the ratio of 3 Clusters per Regiment.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #877 on: 30 November 2023, 07:37:50 »
More the merrier when it comes to armies size, if you can do it, why not ?

And yes an Empire / Homie showdown would be good. Make a new area of conflict

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #878 on: 30 November 2023, 08:59:16 »
3145 Wolves had 75 Clusters, but the Empire has to ward against Homies, which at last count numbered 4 Clans. Both sides have access to Society tech, but so far the Empire hasn't even bulked up their Touman with enough regular tech units. Pre-WoR combined strength of these 4 Homie Clans would be 150+ Clusters, and they still have WarShips outnumbering the Empire's 3. So yes, just for adequate defense(assuming Homies get to rebuild and expand), the Empire needs 70+ to minimum 150 Clusters, not counting expansion of the Imperial Navy.

Empire is increasing it's Touman, this was confirmed

And 42+ Scorpion clusters are not the only thing they have, Garrison Caste is there too and while troops may not be the best and are vehicle centric there is whole lotta of them and are armed with IIC mechs and omni-vehicles like Epona

So while Empire Touman may be at 42+ the overall Imperio Militar should be at that number 70 or more which you mentioned only caveat being that Garrison PGCs are stationary and it's only Touman which can engage in offensive operations


As for Society tech there's are reason nobody is concerned with it: it's dezgra beyond belief

Only Stone Lions are allowed to experiment with some elements of it and only under strict supervison of Star Adders and Clan Council

Some of it would make Blakists go "nah dude, I'll pass" (remember Feralize for example?)

That stuff won't be making any big splashes not that it was packing much punch to begin with, it was just geared to exploit enemy's adherence to zellbringen and it didn't even succeed at that properly (plus Scorpions ditched zellbringen outside their Clan trials anyway)

In universe I doubt that Scorpions are completely in the dark about general situation in the Clan Homeworlds (Clan Watch is on the job) otherwise they would have kept war with Hansa on the back burner and stay focused on them

CGL will not be repeating Clan Invasion storyline, they said as much but something else could be in the cards (I did post my humble suggestion on Star Adder tread if anyone is curious)

And before anything big happens CGL will flesh out Home Clans to make them more interesting and create even footing with enemies like they did with Ghost Bears and Combine in Dominions Divided


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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #879 on: 30 November 2023, 09:24:18 »
Key words: By the end of the Clan invasion.

By the CGL 3145 reboot, everyone in the IS is either building Clantech or buying as much as is affordable. That makes a Cluster roughly equivalent to a Battalion. So it would be better for Clan factions to field at least 2 Clusters per Regiment faced or 3 Clusters for slight superiority.

LCAF has been mostly fielding regimental-sized units, CCAF and DCMS always field regiments, while AFFS is realizing just how limited an LCT is in a major war and are actively expanding with RCTs as the standard again. The IS Clans will catch up one way or another, or lose in attrition, so it's reasonable for the Empire to follow the ratio of 3 Clusters per Regiment.

I will give you that but a Cluster is still either 75-45 points.  Even with the tech upgrades that makes it the equivalent to 2 battalions.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #880 on: 01 December 2023, 04:06:45 »
More the merrier when it comes to armies size, if you can do it, why not ?

And yes an Empire / Homie showdown would be good. Make a new area of conflict

Good points! Cheers  :drinking01:

As it stands, the Empire is the "Shield of The North".

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #881 on: 01 December 2023, 04:16:04 »
Empire is increasing it's Touman, this was confirmed

And 42+ Scorpion clusters are not the only thing they have, Garrison Caste is there too and while troops may not be the best and are vehicle centric there is whole lotta of them and are armed with IIC mechs and omni-vehicles like Epona

So while Empire Touman may be at 42+ the overall Imperio Militar should be at that number 70 or more which you mentioned only caveat being that Garrison PGCs are stationary and it's only Touman which can engage in offensive operations


As for Society tech there's are reason nobody is concerned with it: it's dezgra beyond belief

Only Stone Lions are allowed to experiment with some elements of it and only under strict supervison of Star Adders and Clan Council

Some of it would make Blakists go "nah dude, I'll pass" (remember Feralize for example?)

That stuff won't be making any big splashes not that it was packing much punch to begin with, it was just geared to exploit enemy's adherence to zellbringen and it didn't even succeed at that properly (plus Scorpions ditched zellbringen outside their Clan trials anyway)

In universe I doubt that Scorpions are completely in the dark about general situation in the Clan Homeworlds (Clan Watch is on the job) otherwise they would have kept war with Hansa on the back burner and stay focused on them

CGL will not be repeating Clan Invasion storyline, they said as much but something else could be in the cards (I did post my humble suggestion on Star Adder tread if anyone is curious)

And before anything big happens CGL will flesh out Home Clans to make them more interesting and create even footing with enemies like they did with Ghost Bears and Combine in Dominions Divided

In BT, garrison troops are always there to make up the numbers and perform according to what the writer wants. Conventional units have always been treated as throwaway units against Mechs and most Clans are still Mech-centric forces. That garrison caste is good for pacification and security, but in a real war, they won't cut it unless they get named like Grunt Galaxy or specifically shining in their own stories.

The most important element of the Imperial Military is still the regular Touman.

As the Scorpions are far more flexible and unrestricted by zell, they can adopt useful Society tech like iATMs and Nova CEWS(original or upgraded for 5-unit networks), Fusillade and finish the Electric Reactive Armor tech. Even the Homies will be fielding those stuff except for Nova CEWS(perhaps Lions will use it).

Unless they add "reveals" about certain factions always knowing the Homies' situation, it's doubtful the Imperial Watch knows anything. Imperials can sneak all the way to S7 but there's still nothing about the nearer Homies.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #882 on: 01 December 2023, 04:19:38 »
I will give you that but a Cluster is still either 75-45 points.  Even with the tech upgrades that makes it the equivalent to 2 battalions.

It's not just tech. Clan conventional units are generally worse in experience compared to IS counterparts. Pure Mech fights will end up either way, but combined-arms fights will see an IS win unless against Horses or native Rasalhague. The Clans really need 3 Clusters per Regiment to have an edge.

Of course, this is just lore. Ratio of 2 Clusters per Regiment is good in tabletop.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #883 on: 01 December 2023, 04:42:50 »
Unless they add "reveals" about certain factions always knowing the Homies' situation, it's doubtful the Imperial Watch knows anything. Imperials can sneak all the way to S7 but there's still nothing about the nearer Homies.

Yeah, that one was a reach. Especially with the Adders actively destroying anyone that gets close to the Homeworlds.
« Last Edit: 01 December 2023, 04:58:25 by tassa_kay »
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #884 on: 01 December 2023, 05:48:13 »
In BT, garrison troops are always there to make up the numbers and perform according to what the writer wants. Conventional units have always been treated as throwaway units against Mechs and most Clans are still Mech-centric forces.

Conventional units are not throwaway in current era or couple of eras before current one

Also Stone Lions and Cloud Cobras are vehicle and aerospace centric while all Home Clan Toumans are also stuffed with protomechs


That garrison caste is good for pacification and security, but in a real war, they won't cut it unless they get named like Grunt Galaxy or specifically shining in their own stories.

The most important element of the Imperial Military is still the regular Touman...

Garrison Caste is there specifically to defend their planets, pacification and security is handled by police units which while being part of Garrison Caste are just one segment of it

Garrison Caste is narrowly specialized for defense which is who would be needed in case of Homie invasion


But real world talk here, we know that reason for Scorpion military size is not some in-universe negligence but the fact that Home Clans are completely benched in terms of storytelling so there no real need for writers to start adding stuff in their military until they have reason to



Yeah, that one was a reach. Especially with the Adders actively destroying anyone that gets close to the Homeworlds.

I never said they went there, nobody goes there

I just said that they aren't completely in the dark


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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #885 on: 01 December 2023, 23:42:53 »
Good points! Cheers  :drinking01:

As it stands, the Empire is the "Shield of The North".

And IF said showdown happens, it will take a while for news to reach the Sphere, so while everyone is fighting there, Scorps are like "You are welcome"

But in realism, TPTB said that there would be no "Homie "Clan Invasion 2.0", but I wonder would they try to set up in mid Perhipery

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #886 on: 02 December 2023, 13:09:03 »
Did the Scorpions ever purge their society cells completely? Did they do away with their Dark Caste, that's present in ALL clans?

If no to both...

What's stopping a resourceful cell from taking over a Pirate Kingdom and rearming it...

Just saying... Old RWR planet, with some type of culture that survived the Exodus fleet's movements.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #887 on: 02 December 2023, 13:39:52 »
Did the Scorpions ever purge their society cells completely? Did they do away with their Dark Caste, that's present in ALL clans?

If no to both...

What's stopping a resourceful cell from taking over a Pirate Kingdom and rearming it...

Just saying... Old RWR planet, with some type of culture that survived the Exodus fleet's movements.

TT

Dark Caste members were among the fighters who stayed behind with Khan Suvorov to buy time for Clan to evacuate so it's safe to say that rest of them evacuated with everyone else EDIT: Could be wrong?

(Big reason why I love Scorpions is that they got pretty much everyone out and brought them to safety, solid folks)

Scorpions don't softball with crime but they don't go axe crazy, we know this because they do recruit warrior candidates from Dark Caste (Highwaymen Cluster of Mu Galaxy) on the down low of course  :police:

I don't think that Dark Caste there dabbles in piracy anymore considering the local attitudes plus the Empire is more than big enough for good old ilCosa Nostra to thrive especially once they got in touch with and/or took over existing mafiosos

As for someone going into RWR piracy business who knows, it's a big place and stranger things have happened many times before


« Last Edit: 03 December 2023, 21:09:41 by Fire Scorpion IIC »

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #888 on: 02 December 2023, 20:49:19 »
Did the Scorpions ever purge their society cells completely? Did they do away with their Dark Caste, that's present in ALL clans?

No to both, as far as we're aware. The only Clans that actually did the work there were the Falcons and the Coyotes, as they wiped out the entirety of their scientist castes, and one can't ever really do away with the Dark Caste because there will always be individuals who don't fit into Clan society.
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #889 on: 02 December 2023, 21:10:33 »
Indeed.  All the clues are that the Society remnants among the scientists are alive and well in the Scorpions.  They may just be bidding their time. 

The Society's roots more or less all go back to Babylon during Op Klondike, when Gerek Tchernovkov got the whole of an enclave of scientists that was led by his brother Richard to surrender to the 'yotes without a shot fired, after coming to a secret agreement.  It's easy to speculate that this agreement was manifest in the near-equality of the scientist and warrior castes that we witnessed in Clan Coyote. 

But that also hints that the Society was and likely still is very good at laying low and biding their time. 

Just saying.   
« Last Edit: 02 December 2023, 21:12:18 by rebs »
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #890 on: 03 December 2023, 20:31:33 »
Dark Caste members were among the fighters who stayed behind with Khan Suvorov to buy time for Clan to evacuate

Do you have a page number for this? Haven't seen that stated before, but lord knows the WOR book is DENSE.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #891 on: 03 December 2023, 21:06:28 »
Do you have a page number for this? Haven't seen that stated before, but lord knows the WOR book is DENSE.

Yeah, I think I jumbled something there, I was reading Sarna a while back and the phrase used was 'malcontents' not Dark Caste, my bad

Could be anything I guess, still need to go over the WoR but I'm away now and I don't have any books but other than this part everything else about Dark Caste is checked, recruitment and units were covered in TROs and most recently RecGuide (Locust IIC pilot I think)


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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #892 on: 04 December 2023, 03:16:00 »
Yeah, that one was a reach. Especially with the Adders actively destroying anyone that gets close to the Homeworlds.

I'm not sure if the Adder WarShip patrols are even out of the Homeworlds anymore, as the Foxes are in regular contact with the Empire and those contact routes would have to go through the Clan waypoints previously patrolled by the Adders up till 3090.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #893 on: 04 December 2023, 03:43:06 »
Conventional units are not throwaway in current era or couple of eras before current one

Also Stone Lions and Cloud Cobras are vehicle and aerospace centric while all Home Clan Toumans are also stuffed with protomechs


Garrison Caste is there specifically to defend their planets, pacification and security is handled by police units which while being part of Garrison Caste are just one segment of it

Garrison Caste is narrowly specialized for defense which is who would be needed in case of Homie invasion

Agree to disagree here

Quote
But real world talk here, we know that reason for Scorpion military size is not some in-universe negligence but the fact that Home Clans are completely benched in terms of storytelling so there no real need for writers to start adding stuff in their military until they have reason to

Yeah, they are still rebuilding and expanding from the Crusade.

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #894 on: 04 December 2023, 03:57:56 »
The Scorpions have took a continent (enclave?) on a world in the Chainelane Cluster, so contact with the Sharkfoxes is far easier now.

Also, the conquered Hansa space is so far anti-spinward that neither the Sea Foxes or the Scorpions need to travel through the coreward sections of the Deep Periphery for contact.  One can head out anti-spinward from the Chainelanes then turn north coreward.  The Homeworlds are much farther away than that, and their movements would be difficult to keep secret after a while. 

The Home Clans would have to travel at least 500 to 600 light years distant if not more to intercede.   

« Last Edit: 04 December 2023, 04:02:18 by rebs »
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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #895 on: 04 December 2023, 14:20:27 »

It would be interesting to see how different branches of Society evolved since the Wars of Reaving now that they are isolated from each other in three different locations (Homeworlds, Inner Sphere, Empire)

It was also stated that Clans with less strict relations between warriors and civilians had far fewer issues with Society than harsh ones like Falcons because recruitment of subversives was harder in more egalitarian environments

Star Adders had almost no issues, Hell's Horses and Goliath Scorpions as well

In fact Scorpions were the first one to get fired upon by Coyotes/Society when uprising kicked off for this reason among others probably

So we could be looking at three flavors of Society ideologies down the road


ArkRoyalRavager

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #896 on: 05 December 2023, 02:45:32 »
The Scorpions have took a continent (enclave?) on a world in the Chainelane Cluster, so contact with the Sharkfoxes is far easier now.

Also, the conquered Hansa space is so far anti-spinward that neither the Sea Foxes or the Scorpions need to travel through the coreward sections of the Deep Periphery for contact.  One can head out anti-spinward from the Chainelanes then turn north coreward.  The Homeworlds are much farther away than that, and their movements would be difficult to keep secret after a while. 

The Home Clans would have to travel at least 500 to 600 light years distant if not more to intercede.   

The Empire can skirt anti-spinward to avoid Adder patrols, but the Adders have proven they can assault the Hansa with their major expedition after the WoR. They can do it again, but their window is closing with each year the Empire gets to strengthen itself.

tassa_kay

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #897 on: 05 December 2023, 02:51:32 »
The Empire can skirt anti-spinward to avoid Adder patrols, but the Adders have proven they can assault the Hansa with their major expedition after the WoR. They can do it again, but their window is closing with each year the Empire gets to strengthen itself.

The fact that TPTB didn't actually follow through on this is such a shame. At the very least, it would be nice to see the Home Clans raiding the Empire semi-regularly to keep their warriors sharp (and give all parties involved something to do besides gather dust).
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Dulahan

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #898 on: 05 December 2023, 09:11:52 »
Far as we know the homeworld clans went all crazy on each other again or something?

rebs

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Re: The Scorpion Empire: All your Warhawks are belong to us
« Reply #899 on: 05 December 2023, 11:12:15 »
Maybe.  It's as good a supposition as any. 

I've asked and the closest thing to an answer about the Homies that I received was a strong hint that speculating about them is rather a waste of time because it's going to be a long time before we hear about them again, if ever.

That's not a quote.  That's just what I gathered.  Others might have read the things I did and have slightly different conclusions, or maybe even vastly different conclusions because we're all different. 

It just seems that it might truly be better for everyone if we forget about them for a while.  That's my take. 
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