Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 157089 times)

IronLichRich31

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What would it take to get this up to an S? It seems like a perfect Awesome, you listed no flaws, and yet...?
Just trying to understand your calculations at the upper end of the scale.


The awesome is the perfect essence of an awesome, comes in at a reasonable price point, and will almost never be bad. But it's 3/5, has restrictive firing arcs, and is all around a good mech but not amazing. It's in the same boat for me as the warhammer 8r and 10k from the warhammer rec guide. They're fantastic warhammers, I've never had a problem with them, and they're a solid A/B because it's a good mech that is really fair

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I mean, it is a IS Hellstar . . . even with some Clan tech helping it out, the HPPCs still make it inferior to the Clan version.  It is probably the best gun port matching option even if the IS builds or can buy Clan ERPPC.  Not sure too many options existed OOC to build something with how it was going to end up crit packed.  Even give it IS ERPPCs, you are still limited to 3 like the AWS-8Q . . . so it goes faster?  Is that going to use up the now available tonnage?  Give it MASC & Supercharger for giggles?  Not sure you have the crits for that.

Just comes down to it is slow with what are now more like mid-ranged weapons.

My point was people tend to ether complain that a mech is ether not optimized or that it's too optimized when it come to assaults.

We are also in this weird transition point with the community where a niche group of players shunning IS mechs using Clan tech when the Rec Guides first started to now asking for more Clan tech for their favorite IS mechs.

All the same, I'm sure we will have a Clan ER PPC Awesome in the future and some one on the forum will call us awful people for suggesting it in the first place.
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God and Davion

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Many thanks Scotty for the reviews. It is a ton of work and it is totally worth it.

  The RecGuide 4 features some of the best contenders of the entire series. The Ice Ferret gaves us a low BV harasser unit to use it instead of the Phantom H. The Trebuchet is very good as a flyswatter and as a fire support mech, too. And it is quite cheap. The Awesome is, IIRC the cheapest unit with three headcappers that it is workable. And the Warhammer IIC is one of the best assault mechs out there (the new mini is gorgeous, btw).
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MarauderD

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Many thanks Scotty for the reviews. It is a ton of work and it is totally worth it.

With no more upcoming Rec Guides to consume, I now spend my days looking forward to Scotty's opinions on the Rec Guide mechs.  Thanks for the hard work and taking the time to write it all down!

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Scotty, do you base all your reviews on being able to do a running alpha strike? I'm trying to understand your assumptions. Thanks!

No, and in many cases (see: Warhammer IIC 13) a running alpha strike is extremely impractical.  My opinion on mechs with the base 10 heat sinks (i.e. not devoting additional tonnage) is that anything up to +4 and running is "well sinked".  If you're spending tonnage on heatsinks and as a result you are not capable of getting to a +4 at a run, the design is usually oversinked.  Those tons could have instead been spent on something else.

That said tonnage efficiency does not factor into these ratings by itself.  Some incredibly tonnage inefficient weapons (Ultra AC/5s) make for excellent weapons under BV because being so tonnage inefficient means there's less room to put expensive other guns and equipment.  I don't tend to find this to be the case for heat sinks, though, because one of a 'Mech's defining features and greatest advantages is to be able to ride the heat scale.

Where I take points off for not being heat efficient is when you have very natural and obvious bracket weapons (Battlemaster 6G) where you are punished for using them intuitively, or when using your weapons in a natural pattern invokes significant or threatening heat.
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What would it take to get this up to an S? It seems like a perfect Awesome, you listed no flaws, and yet...?
Just trying to understand your calculations at the upper end of the scale.

4/6 and a Clan XL, at which point it is directly competing with the Zeus 11S and the Doloire for the crown of best 80 ton mech in the game if the BV stays at or near 2250.

Also worth reminding that the criteria I'm using are, ultimately, some manner of subjective, and that an "A" is still recognition of a superb design - just not one I'm going to throw faction flavor to the wind to have in my force.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2022, 17:34:01 by Scotty »
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I'm finding it weird that the people who have a hate-on for nLRM don't have one for the HPPC. They're pretty much the same thing, throwing mass at a problem to close the gap with clantech.

I will grant the nLRM is a republic era tech, and HPPC came online in the early days of the Jihad.

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4/6 and a Clan XL, at which point it is directly competing with the Zeus 11S and the Doloire for the crown of best 80 ton mech in the game if the BV stays at or near 2250.

Do you have a BV level like this that you consider good for each (or most) tonnages?  If so, could you list them?

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Seconded!
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Wasp WSP-3W: I was wrong, this is cheaper.  For 342 BV you get the 3M's lack of durability and the traditional Wasp 6/9/6 mobility, but you bring along four Small Lasers and two Small Pulse Lasers.  It's a backstabber but one that's not likely to live to backstab much.  Genuinely useful at its price point as literally just an initiative sink, I can see using one sometimes but I don't really like it.  I know some people swear by the 1W and this is just that but better, but I'm not one of them.  Very cheap to put some skill upgrades on, but at the end of the day you're putting skill upgrades on a tin can with a sharp edge on it.  C-

I'm one of those players who loves the -1W, as an ultracheap backstabber that's usually ignored until the right moment comes and it gets a chance to play Tickle the Ammo Bin/HGR. It's like a ninja that you don't know is there until they jump at you for a moment then are gone, and the only reason you care about the tiny knife they were carrying is that it's now precisely embedded in your kidney.

That being said, the -3W is a huge letdown, and has been since I first saw it way too many years ago. It seems to be like Jaime walked into Blackwell in the late 3040s, gave them the performance readings for Elementals and light Omnis, said "We need our Wasps to fight this"...and the techs didn't believe a word of the specs sheet. If Dashers and Ullers had a fraction of their firepower and had to fight at the same ranges Bug Mechs did, or if Elementals were just jump troops with heavy body armor and slightly more gun than conventional troops...then the -3W *might* have been an asset.
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I'm finding it weird that the people who have a hate-on for nLRM don't have one for the HPPC. They're pretty much the same thing, throwing mass at a problem to close the gap with clantech.

I will grant the nLRM is a republic era tech, and HPPC came online in the early days of the Jihad.

The HPPC is far better than the nLRM.  You throw extra mass at a PPC, yes, but you get added damage for that.  The nLRM just gives you a reduced minimum range for that extra tonnage.  It's a much weaker return.  On top of that, the HPPC was a tournament-legal weapon from the get go, while the nLRM didn't become tournament legal until after the Inner Sphere factions began producing Clan LRMs anyway.  They're a stopgap that was never all that effective and by the time they were ready the gap no longer actually existed.
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Scotty

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I'm finding it weird that the people who have a hate-on for nLRM don't have one for the HPPC. They're pretty much the same thing, throwing mass at a problem to close the gap with clantech.

I will grant the nLRM is a republic era tech, and HPPC came online in the early days of the Jihad.

The problem with the NLRM that doesn't exist with the HPPC is that the HPPC meaningfully improved on the PPC for the extra weight.  It offers it capabilities that it did not previously have, in the form of potential headcapping and in the form of more concentrated damage.  It successfully bridged the gap with Clan tech on a raw capability level.  There are downsides with tonnage, of course, but it has retained (improved!) the PPC's damage:tonnage ratio and it maintains the damage:heat ratio.  Putting 20 tons of HPPC on a 'Mech is better than 21 tons of standard PPC.  This is a small but meaningful gain against a Clan comparison.

NLRMs do not do this.  The "advantage" of an NLRM is the minimum range and nothing else.  The damage has not meaningfully improved and the tonnage increase makes them appreciably and significantly less efficient. And what's worse is they don't even close the gap on the only improvement that they even attempt, failing to eliminate the minimum range.  Comparing equal tonnage of standard LRMs and NLRMs is a disappointment.

If NLRMs had no minimum range they would arguably be worth using.  As is they're just worse than Mounting an LRM launcher and an SRM launcher, which is in many cases worse than MMLs for the same capability.  It's a half step into a gap where other IS innovations have already made two steps.
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HPPCs use extra mass to score headcapping ability.

NLRMs use extra mass for something that only comes into play when you're using your LRMs wrong.

(yes, I know other people already basically said the same thing. I thought it was pithy, shut up.)
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The Awesome 11H is like the rest of Marik's units. It's meant to be a team player, not a prima donna. You pair it with the rest of the standard Marik assault lance of a Stalker, a Battlemaster and a Longbow, (or far more nowadays) and then use faster assets to sweep the enemy into your guns.  Could you slap in 3 Clan ER PPCs and then add in a Clan ER Large instead of the small X-Pulse? Sure.

But the 11H is designed as an example of the IS's slow evolution of Clan tech combined with IS components. That's why it's an excellent but not super min maxed design like the Hellstar.  It also fits in well with the fluff development of the Awesome from TRO Prototypes, where they kept experimenting with Clan DHS and then finally got it right.

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Do you have a BV level like this that you consider good for each (or most) tonnages?  If so, could you list them?

Seconded!

Not really.  I think that in a lot of ways the evaluation of whether a given 'Mech's BV is good or not is much more complex than having a target BV for a given tonnage.  Outliers obviously strain this a bit, like the Skinwalker's configs that have a comfortable head start on the race to 4000 BV that I will never, ever find attractive for a Medium 'Mech.  I do think that it becomes very difficult to be a good 'Mech above 3000 BV regardless of size, but a 'Mech that is 80 tons can be good at 1600 BV (Awesome 8Q), 2000 BV (Awesome 11H), 2300 BV (Zeus 11S) and 2700 BV (Warhammer IIC 13).  There's not really an ideal BV for the size, in that sense.

In the Zeus's case, it has the durability of a low end Assault or a high end Heavy thanks to the armor and the Clan XL and the CASE II; it has the armament of a Clantech low-end Assault or high-end Heavy, albeit one not particularly optimized to be extraordinarily lethal; and it has the speed of a Clantech low-end Assault or high-end Heavy.  All these things together, its peers are fairly easy to determine: they are Gargoyles and Night Gyrs and Nova Cats.  Compared to its peers with similar firepower, it's generally cheaper.  There are reasons for that, of course, and I would expect it to not be the superior 'Mech in a one on one fight even if the margins are fairly close, but you get what is very close to the same capability on a 'Mech that is much cheaper than the disparity suggests.

This is helped by how the Zeus in particular doesn't have a weakness in the traditional sense.  In the eternal struggle between speed, guns, and armor, it picked all three.  There are 'Mechs that are faster but its speed isn't a liability; there are 'Mechs that are tougher but its armor isn't a liability; there are 'Mechs that have more firepower but its ability to engage other 'Mechs in a duel isn't a liability.  This is arguably the reason the Awesome 11H doesn't measure to the "S" tier, because its speed can absolutely be a liability even if on paper the difference is only one MP.

One thing that many of these entries are going to reflect and have reflected already is that if given the choice between two configs that I both like, I usually trend toward the cheaper config because it means you can shore up other parts of your force or take improved skills that may bridge the gap in capabilities.  That's a big part of what makes the Zeus 11S attractive.  You're not getting a 'Mech that can comfortably go toe to toe with a Timber Wolf A, but you are getting a 'Mech that can comfortably go toe to toe with a Timber Wolf A when its partner at 4K BV is another brick shithouse Heavy and the Timber Wolf's wingman is whatever spare pennies it could afford to spend on a Kit Fox.  That's a big part of what can make a 'Mech an attractive choice.

The Awesome 11H is like the rest of Marik's units. It's meant to be a team player, not a prima donna. You pair it with the rest of the standard Marik assault lance of a Stalker, a Battlemaster and a Longbow, (or far more nowadays) and then use faster assets to sweep the enemy into your guns.  Could you slap in 3 Clan ER PPCs and then add in a Clan ER Large instead of the small X-Pulse? Sure.

But the 11H is designed as an example of the IS's slow evolution of Clan tech combined with IS components. That's why it's an excellent but not super min maxed design like the Hellstar.  It also fits in well with the fluff development of the Awesome from TRO Prototypes, where they kept experimenting with Clan DHS and then finally got it right.

I agree with you in spirit but not particularly in execution.  An Awesome that had triple Clan ER PPCs instead of Heavy PPCs would probably be ridiculously expensive, and at a certain point you end up just being a Warhawk but worse and just as expensive.  This isn't really the point of "team player", but it's a useful opportunity to point out that being the baddest 'Mech on the field is frequently a negative if it means the 'Mech is too expensive.  We're going to get a lot of these with the new Wolf Empire 'Mechs, and I'm going to give most of them Fs for it.  There are multiple ways to optimize a 'Mech, and for decades the community obsession with "munchkin" and "cheese" designs have been focused on how to make a 'Mech that absolute deadliest single record sheet on the table.  These 'Mechs are frequently very bad in a BV balanced fight, and no one appears to realize this (or perhaps more accurately, care).

EDIT: look no further than this same volume with the Thresher Mk II, which I am comfortable in saying is probably one of the most absolute dogshit 'Mechs in the game from a BV perspective, and the only things that really come close are the Stormwolf.  It is also an exceptionally good 'Mech if you throw BV out the window, and is one of the more individually capable 'Mechs in the game.

It's just not worth over 3300 BV to do that.  Not even close.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2022, 21:57:06 by Scotty »
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I agree with you in spirit but not particularly in execution.  An Awesome that had triple Clan ER PPCs instead of Heavy PPCs would probably be ridiculously expensive, and at a certain point you end up just being a Warhawk but worse and just as expensive.

Case in point, the Regent A.  It's an Awesome IIC with absurdly inflated BV.
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Not really.  I think that in a lot of ways the evaluation of whether a given 'Mech's BV is good or not is much more complex than having a target BV for a given tonnage. 

I figured as much and appreciate the explication.  Nice to see written out what a lot of us do by feel or instinct.

Quote
...like the Skinwalker's configs that have a comfortable head start on the race to 4000 BV that I will never, ever find attractive for a Medium 'Mech... I do think that it becomes very difficult to be a good 'Mech above 3000 BV regardless of size...

A lot of this is driven by the usual BV caps we’ve grown accustomed to and use in our games.  If the BV cap for a star-on-star Clan trial is the typical 10K-ish, no Skinwalker will look good.  But if we raise the BV cap for this star-on-star game to 20K-ish, suddenly the Skinwalkers not only look good, but necessary to compete effectively.  I wouldn’t change your ratings because the lower BV caps still dominate most games.  But in theory, BV bloat on units could be accommodated with inflated BV caps.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2022, 23:04:29 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Scotty

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Recognition Guide: IlClan Volume 5:

Hammerhead: Aw shit, here we go.  Starting this volume off with what might actually be the best 'Mech in the entire series, and a strong contender for Top 5 overall in the entire game.  That's a strong endorsement, and I'm going to tell you why.  First, we have the very obvious notable feature, Hardened Armor.  I like Hardened Armor, because it fundamentally changes the paradigm of protection for a 'Mech.  A 'Mech with Hardened has functionally twice the former maximum armor that it could have mounted.  You pay for it with tonnage, of course, but the result is that we have a 45 ton 'mech here that pays 15 tons in order to have the equivalent armor protection of a low end Assault 'Mech, and it does so while largely retaining the maneuverability of a Medium.  It is significantly better armored than a Gargoyle and manages to be faster at a walk and match it at a run.  The weapons are mostly pedestrian, and are reasonably efficient for its size in the form of a Large Pulse Laser, an ER Medium, and a Streak SRM-6.  Accurate and non-wasteful guns that are still capable of triggering a PSR.  They're also entirely torso mounted, leaving the arms free as effectively ablative armor (not a small consideration on something this durable) and in a pinch they can even punch effectively.  Not my first pick for melee attacks, but worth considering.  The other surprise is the AES in both legs.  This gives it an improved accuracy on its kicks, and offsets the added difficulty to PSRs thanks to Hardened.  This is a game changer, and fundamentally erases the only meaningful downside to Hardened Armor on this 'Mech.  While it retains 8 run MP it can still reach a +3 TMM at a run with a turn to spare, and it would not have reached +4 even if using standard armor.  It means that the Hammerhead is an absolute monster to knock down, requiring 40 points of conventional damage to do so, and it will manage the PSR if you do trigger a test just as well as any normal 'Mech.  At 1686 BV it's also very cheap for what is essentially a pocket Assault 'Mech in terms of how much punishment it's going to take to bring down.  There are very few 'Mechs less vulnerable than this one.  For my money, one of the single best 'Mechs in the game to pay the BV for a pilot upgrade for, at which point it might very well never fall down as long as you use it.  Superb.  I will play this 'Mech in every single faction I feel like and feel no guilt whatsoever.  S+

Conjurer (Hellhound): Coming off one of my favorite 'Mechs of all time, that's a tough act to follow.  The Hellhound is... fine.  It's arguably even good, with a Large Pulse and a pair of ER Mediums and Streak SRM 2s.  It's decently mobile at 6/9/6 and the BV isn't bad at 1813 for what you get especially with a standard engine.  It can get a bit toasty if you are jumping, or if the Streaks lock unexpectedly, but not unreasonably.  A good skirmisher.  It's just not a Hammerhead.  B

Conjurer (Hellhound) 7: This is the same 'Mech with LRM 5s instead of Streak SRM 2s.  Honestly I don't like that change, and it costs a few extra points at 1845 for a switch I wouldn't have made in the first place.  Sure the LRM 5s better match the Pulse Laser range brackets, but I think it's harder to play opportunist without the Streak benefit of not firing without a lock.  B-

Conjurer (Hellhound) 8: A Rotary AC/5, finally we're getting away from the garbage Clan RAC/2.  Wait, I'm being informed that the RAC/5 is an Inner Sphere version, and we're back to it being a bad call.  The Streak SRM 6 is a good call, and the two Clan Medium Pulse lasers are also genuinely good, but it also has an Inner Sphere XL Engine and doesn't spring for CASE II in torsos that have three tons of explosive ammo between them.  It also has MASC to get up to the dreaded exactly 10 MP, which skyrockets the BV to 2197.  Hard pass.  There are three different changes that could be made to this 'Mech to make it usable (no MASC, run it underweight for all I care just avoid exactly 10 run MP; Clan RAC/5; Clan XL Engine) and none of them happened.  F

Crab CRB-54: All of the various kinds of Crabs in the Recognition Guides have found a way to do serious illicit drugs and I love it.  The 54 has decided that the pilot is more likely to survive if the 'Mech disintegrates like the crumple zone on a car around the cockpit as quickly as possible, and in the meantime it burns fast and bright.  Composite Structure and a XXL is... one way to get spare tonnage, and for what it's worth I think it's the funniest way.  Heavy Ferro Fibrous makes a valiant effort to reclaim some level of durability but fails utterly.  The real attraction is paired Plasma Rifles, joined by an ER Medium and ER Small, exactly enough heat sinks to use the three energy guns worth using at a run, and then the gargantuan engine and Supercharger take you directly into a concrete wall at 140 KPH.  Sometimes you will win the fight with wall, most times you won't.  Every time there will be a massive explosion and a burning oil slick afterward, and that's radical.  B+

Catapult CPLT-K6: There are a lot of Catapults I like a lot, and I'll be honest, I'm not sure this is one of them.  It does make an attempt at being truly unique, though, so I respect it even if it's not my favorite.  It's slow, at 3/5/3, but unlike most 3/5/3 'Mechs it has the range to reach out and touch someone two maps over.  Two Extended LRM 15s are massive, and the unique part here is that there's AES in the arms to make them more accurate.  This affects any attacks made with that weapon, which makes this Catapult one of the most effective IDF weapons ever devised, predominantly because it is absurdly accurate even in IDF at a range most LRMs can barely reach.  Four ER Small Lasers tell pests to go away, and there's not quite enough ammo for me to be truly happy, but if you hold your shots for good ones you will do a good number with this 'Mech.  An Inner Sphere Xl and no CASE means that a bad hit to an arm can be instantly fatal, which is not ideal, but there's really no getting around that on a 'Mech this tightly packed.  I like it for the creativity.  B

Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) T: This is the start of a section that may be controversial.  I will be honest, I do not have any lingering affection for the Timber Wolf.  It just is not the kind of 'Mech that appeals to me, never has been.  Which is weird, because generally it has a reputation of being very good.  The T is actually a pretty good attempt to follow up on that.  It has two LRM-20s with Artemis V, a combination I very much like for its accuracy and very high average damage.  It has two Improved Heavy Mediums and two ER Mediums in the arms, which is also a lot of damage.  Rounding out the armament is two ER Smalls and an ER Small Pulse.  The LRMs have six tons of ammo, which is definitely enough.  Seventeen doubles are enough that a running alpha with all of the guns range 9 or higher is +4, which is right about exactly where I like to see it, and at close range a single iHML can be dropped to add the small lasers at the same heat level.  The BV is high at 2714, but it is genuinely the full package.  The only major downside is that all the LRM ammo is in the arms, and each arm has five explosive crits in it.  Losing one arm cuts your offense by almost 50%, and it's very likely you pick up some pilot hits.  This makes it a curious balancing act to skirmish for long enough to burn through some of your tons of ammo, and then commit while you still have ammo and overwhelm the opponent.  Throwing it into close range immediately is a waste of this 'Mech, and that makes it difficult to use.  A-

Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) M: I get what was going on here, this was to match the MechCommander version.  It's not great.  The ER PPCs are certainly powerful, and the Large Pulse Lasers is certainly good on its own, but the heat sinks just aren't there.  All three long range energy guns at a run is +10.  All of the other guns except the Heavy Flamer are also long range.  Trying to fire all of them is an exercise in seeing how quickly you can roll an ammo explosion.  This is a great example of a 'Mech where I don't know what the expected firing pattern is, because it feels a lot like the answer is "two ER PPCs" all the time, every time, and if that's the case why are there even LRMs on here.  In any case, they sure do drive the BV up, and this one is actually more expensive than the T at 2741.  It feels like it's committing to the Hellbringer gambit of waiting for an arm to get shot off to make your own heat management better, but it's not a Hellbringer, and if you're losing parts you're much closer to being destroyed from where you started than the Hellbringer was.  What a weird config.  D

Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) N: This one is better, right out the gate.  Still twin ER PPCs, but we have LRM 15s instead of paired 5s.  I'm still not a huge fan of the firing pattern here, but it's much easier to fire both PPCs at range, and then drop one PPC for both LRMs and some secondary guns up close, or drop one PPC for both LRMs at range to cool off for a turn if you've been adding one to your long range fire.  It's not as intuitive as "this side toward enemy" but it's something you could reasonably work out an effective pattern for where none of your ranged weapons are consistently idle.  In close there are two Medium Pulse Lasers and four Machine Guns.  The Machine Gun ammo is in the absolute worst possible place for it, and ironically I'd rather have made room for it by putting some LRM ammo in the arms than where it is now.  Or a heat sink, since I know for a fact that the one in the right torso is not fixed.  Sixteen doubles is enough to develop a firing pattern as described above.  This is the config that matches the original appearance of the Timber Wolf, something that did not exist for over 30 years, and I like it more just for that.  It being fairly good in its own right is a good thing.  The BV is very high at 2862, and that makes it unlikely that I'll take this, but I'm not going to be annoyed at having one handed to me.  C+

Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) W: The first thing I noticed here was that the dreaded 10 run MP makes another appearance here.  The second thing I noticed is that there's a lower arm actuator in the left arm that prevents flipping the Ultra AC/20.  The tech that designed this should be shot for that.  There is enough Ultra ammo, and there are also a pair of ER Mediums and a pair of Streak SRM 6s.  Whatever you shoot at is going to know it's been shot.  Fifteen doubles is a good amount for taking risks, as you'll end up below +5 if you don't lock with at least one, and if you lock with both your target is almost guaranteed to be taking a PSR even if you whiffed with the UAC.  I do not like the Supercharger here.  The BV is 2791, which is more than I want to pay for it.  No Supercharger and coming in that many tons underweight is a better 'Mech for the BV.  That's something that's going to keep coming up on a lot of these 'Mechs and I'm not going to be charitable about it.  D

King Crab KGC-011: the equally coked up, maniacal big brother to the Crab 54 from earlier this guide.  There's an XXL here, and Composite structure again, but this time there's the full might of a 100 ton 'Mech's armor.  It moves 4/6 and jams a Supercharger in here to get to 8, which is exactly fast enough to be ****** terrifying with a pair of LB-20Xs and a Plasma Rifle.  There's technically a RL 15 here, too, but I prefer to just ignore it.  There are arguably too many heat sinks here at 16 doubles, which means that at full tilt and firing the one shot Rocket Launcher you're still heat neutral.  This one I think is anticipating taking engine crits, and to be completely honest I'm not sure what the hell you'd spend that tonnage on anyway, this thing is packed.  There are six tons of LB-20X ammo and most of it is in the legs.  Two tons of Plasma Rifle ammo split between the center torso and the head at least crit-pad something on this 'Mech.  It's a wild ride from start to finish, and at 2406 BV you're going to explode in magnificent fashion but the pair of LB-20s means it's a coinflip whether it will be hilarious for you or your opponent (or both).  When this 'Mech works it's going to work, and I respect the intensity.  A+ for amusement, but the actual quality gets a B.

Marauder II MAD-5A: This is a 'Mech with a fantastic idea and a good role and it makes one critical error and one sub-par choice that absolutely destroys it as a 'Mech that I would consider taking.  First, the sub-par choice: 29 single heat sinks on a 'Mech with ER PPCs and an LB-10X and an XL Engine.  Second, three tons of ammo in the un-CASE'd side torso and no Clan CASE.  No amount of durability afforded by a 100 tonner's worth of armor makes up for that.  It's not an F only because it's still functional and dangerous.  D

Marauder II MAD-5B: Fixes basically everything wrong with the 5A.  No XL, 16 doubles, and there's more than enough ammo for the much better ballistic weapon, the Gauss Rifle.  This is a good 'Mech.  I am still not likely to take it, and at 2589 I think it loses to the Warhammer IICs that are a couple hundred cheaper than this, but it's still a solid 'Mech.  B-

Marauder II MAD-5C: ...eurgh.  I want to like this a lot because of the Ultra AC/5, but it's not good.  With two ER PPCs, 32 single heat sinks is just trying too hard, and it took an XL to get to that in the first place.  Two tons of ammo for the Ultra is refreshing, but even with the huge plummet in BV to 2024 it's not on my list.  Swap the XL for a standard and double heatsinks and it's an A.  At least the CASE is in the correct torso now, even if it does functionally nothing with an IS XL.  As is it's a D

Marauder II MAD-6A:  Now we're cooking with gas.  Still slow for my tastes, but I love Ultra AC/10s, and there are enough double heat sinks here to use it effectively.  Medium X-Pulse Lasers are sadly underrated and I like their use here.  Swap them for a single ER PPC when the numbers get good and you're golden.  There is enough UAC/10 ammo, and the CASE will actually function with the Light engine.  Good stuff.  The BV is decent at 2367, and the compact gyro helps lessen the odds of being instantly and catastrophically crippled unluckily.  A

Marauder II MAD-6C:  This is just a fat Awesome.  It costs way too much for not enough benefit.  By itself it's not bad, but when the comparison to the Awesome 11H exists I'd rather have the 11H every day of the week for almost 350 less BV (Marauder clocks in at 2346).  It's very durable, and it will keep trucking for a long time, so it's going to still get a passing grade, but there are better options.  C

Marauder II MAD-8K: This is much more interesting.  Over-under standard and Light PPCs is a neat conceit, and using standard PPCs allows the 15 doubles to handle the heat load very well.  There's enough ammo for the Gauss Rifle, and there's CASE II in the correct torso to use it.  An Inner Sphere XL isn't the most ideal but it's good enough.  The surprise co-star is Ballistic-Reinforced Armor, which I love, and there's a shitload of it on here.  It is probably too expensive at 2849, but it will survive a long time and it will do a lot of damage and I can forgive something that's too expensive because it's too durable a lot faster than I can forgive something that's too expensive but also fragile.  A-[/u]

Marauder II MAD-10D: This is almost certainly the best Marauder II in the book.  Its main guns are inarguably the best, as Clan ER PPCs.  The Large Re-engineered Laser in the dorsal mount is unique and I'm a fan of the weapon concept in the first place.  Medium X-Pulse Lasers appear again and while they're no Clan Medium Pulse Lasers, they're cheaper than that.  Twenty doubles makes for some interesting heat management, but at a run you're +1 for the three bit energy guns, and you have options that you can configure based on heat at closer range.  It's also fast for a Marauder II, at 4/6/4.  That's a big benefit, and it almost excuses the IS XL engine.  This adds up to 2741, and while I like the 8K's gimmick better and that will be the one I'm likely to field on purpose, this is not one that I'm going to shy away from.  B+

'Mechs by rating:

F: 1
D: 4
C: 2
B: 7
A: 3
S: 1

Cumulative 'Mechs by rating (series):

F: 5
D: 19
C: 35
B: 26
A: 14
S: 2
« Last Edit: 05 January 2022, 23:36:39 by Scotty »
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Scotty

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A lot of this is driven by the usual BV caps we’ve grown accustomed to and use in our games.  If the BV cap for a star-on-star Clan trial is the typical 10K-ish, no Skinwalker will look good.  But if we raise the BV cap for this star-on-star game to 20K-ish, suddenly the Skinwalkers not only look good, but necessary to compete effectively.  I wouldn’t change your ratings because the lower BV caps still dominate most games.  But in theory, BV bloat on units could be accommodated with inflated BV caps.

I don't actually think this is true.  It makes it easier to disguise the flaws inherent in being significantly over-valued, but it doesn't actually make them go away.  At the end of the day the Skinwalker is still a 55 ton Medium  with nearly identical durability to a Stormcrow and will die just as quickly, but it costs nearly twice as much.  There's not really any amount of capability (that the Skinwalker assuredly does not have) that affects that unfortunate calculus.  As BVs go up, the amount of units you can take that will make it functionally impossible to compete with a single unit comparison increases exponentially.

A Skinwalker is individually very good.  It is not worth three Wolverines.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot the Marauder IIs.  Fixing.

EDIT II: The Marauder IIs have been added and numbers updated.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2022, 23:37:00 by Scotty »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Thinking about the new King Crab, I just can't help but imagining the pilot huffing spray paint and screaming "WITNESS ME!!!" every time one goes into battle.
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A Skinwalker is individually very good.  It is not worth three Wolverines.

Agreed.  But in the example I put forward, a 20K-ish game _limited to five mechs on each side_, there’s no room to play three Wolverines.  To compete well, each mech will have to be a 3K+ monster.

Again, doesn’t change your ratings because no one plays that kind of game.  I’m just saying that I can imagine BV-inflated, unit-number-restricted games where Skinwalkers, Dire Wolves, etc. are de rigeur, not liabilities.
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Scotty

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I think that's an inherent consequence of requiring high average BVs - and how few units actually can be those - than it is anything about a 'Mech's quality or lackthereof.  I've mentioned it a couple times now, but it's very difficult for me to like a 'Mech that goes over 3000 BV.  There are going to be maybe a half dozen over the course of 600 records sheets in 24 volums that I'm going to rate more highly than a C that are over 3K BV, and I can only think of four of them off-hand in the Supernova 5, the Iron Cheetah B, the Jade Phoenix Prime, and the Mastodon Prime.

This is indicative of the shared problem in that they're all too expensive to ever have a net positive effect.  Turning a game into the Blunderdome for Gifted 'Mech Variants doesn't solve the problem so much as make it so that everyone is suffering from the same problem equally, which is a balance of sorts I suppose but I feel like it's slightly missing the point.
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Blunderdome for Gifted 'Mech Variants

“Welcome to the Blunderdome” is how every Clan Grand Melee should open from now on.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

StCptMara

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Scotty, regarding the Lower Arm Actuator on the Timber Wolf W's Ultra 20 arm, I think that might be an error, unless they changed the rules that OmniMechs cannot have lower arm and hand actuators on a limb mounting a gauss rifle, PPC, or autocannon.
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Scotty

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The actuator is on the other arm with the three medium lasers, preventing all arm flipping entirely.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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There are far too many omnimechs that are badly hindered by that particular design decision.
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Scotty

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If the lower arm actuator was even slightly less useless it'd be an interesting thing to consider but as is it's just A Mistake.
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StCptMara

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The actuator is on the other arm with the three medium lasers, preventing all arm flipping entirely.

That sucks. :( Chalk it up to "Design decisions that make no sense," like there are always some of in every TRO/Record Sheet project.
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With the HPPC vs X-PPC's it doesn't throw just mass at being a head capper, it throws heat and crit space at it too, while the NLRM throws tonnage and crit space at lowering min range and being compatible with existing munitions.

the HPPC is either a PPC that trades mass, space and heat for damage or an ER-PPC that trades, space, range and mass for damage.
the NLRM might allow/force you to ditch some defensive weapons with their shorter min range, yeah really got nothing for the NLRM for its mass and crit space increase.

HPPC might not be the best, if you're replacing a PPC you might also need to spend extra tonnage on heat sinks (depending how you like your heat levels) like you would with an ER-PPC, losing more than the 3 Tonnes from the increase in weapon weight and possibly more crit space from heat sinks outside the engine.

Replacing the ER-PPC with the HPPC, you lose the 3 tonnes from the weapon, but you don't need to add heat sinks but you lose 3 tonnes and 1 crit and you might need to invest more in armour/speed/weapons to make up for either min range coverage or the long range coverage the ER-PPC had.

TL:DR neither are that good and have hidden costs, kinda wish the extra PPC's were added to the game earlier both in and out of universe, the same time they introduced small, med, large lasers and AC's
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The other surprise is the AES in both legs.  This gives it an improved accuracy on its kicks, and offsets the added difficulty to PSRs thanks to Hardened. 

AES provides a –2 modifier to Piloting Skill Rolls, so even with the hardened armor it's a net gain of -1.

It's sounding better and better, isn't it?   :thumbsup:
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