Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 153313 times)

Valkerie

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I will probably do what's in the wave 1/wave 2 pdfs since I think that hews next closest to what you're describing here, and maybe what's in the AGOAC and Clan Invasion boxes.
Big thank you in advance if you do this.  While our group is primarily Alpha Strike focused, I like to mix in Classic now and then, and I've got some new players who really love it.  Learning how these units fair under Classic rules would be a great help with coaching new players.  I do my best, but I'm no expert.
There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others.   -Machiavelli

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Because overkill is underrated my friend.  -John "Hannibal" Smith

Unit/Scheme of the Month Master Index

Scotty

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Recognition Guide: IlClan Volume 21

Arctic Cheetah (Hankyu) T: I struggle to form any strong opinions about this config, except to point out that it's I think the only time in all of BattleTech where an OmniMech with fixed jump jets fewer than the maximum possible has additional jump jets added to a configuration to bring it up to maximum.  This is less momentous than it sounds, considering the only other Omni that I think fixes jump jets to the base chassis that isn't the maximum is the Mist Lynx, but it's still something worth pointing out.  What that does is take this Arctic Cheetah config from 8/12/6 like most others to 8/12/8.  This brings its mobility up to some place genuinely useful.  What it does with that mobility is... questionably useful.  There are two ER Medium Lasers, which is fine, and two Streak LRM 5s, which is... not great, but it's still damage, and finally there's a Flamer and TAG.  Long time readers of the column know that I hold Flamers in contempt and TAG in indifference, so this does not finish strong in my eyes.  One ton of Streak ammo is better than it could have been, and is stored in the left torso with exactly zero of the launchers.  I'd have preferred this being in one arm to avoid losing that torso if the ammo gets hit, but I understand why it wasn't in this case.  If an Arctic Cheetah loses an arm, it is in my humble opinion time to leave, but I get why that's not always the case.  The armor is honestly pretty bad for a 30 tonner, and while it's capable of forcing a PSR, doing so requires at least four weapons to hit at any range and two of them must be ER Mediums even at point blank.  Being able to force PSRs reliably would be a neat trick at 1100 BV, but bringing this config forces you to commit 1429 and I find it difficult to express how supremely not worth it this is.  You're genuinely better off taking that much BV in Mist Lynxes, and I distinctly recall being unkind to those.  Huh?  Heat?  Yeah, technically you can overheat if you jump (+4 max distance firing the four weapons with a greater range than 'toothpick' distance) but you're fast enough that no one really cares, least of all yourself.  D

Arctic Cheetah (Hankyu) E: Speaking of unkind, this config is about to make me start misbehaving.  The extra jump jets are gone taking us back to the (irritating) movement curve of 8/12/6.  Now it's harder to get to a +4 TMM than before, and in exchange for weapons we have... oh lord.  Two Medium Pulse Lasers are trying very hard to elevate this weapon loadout and failing miserably.  The rest of the equipment is six Light Machine Guns in two arrays, a Flamer, and a pair of B-Pods.  The LMGs have a total of a full ton of ammo (200 shots for six guns, making them significantly over-ammo'd).  In order to force a PSR you have to hit with both MPLs, and then either score all six LMG shots, or some combination of four LMG hits and the Flamer if you're in range.  For those counting, that's still all five weapon systems that must hit, multiple of them at point blank range, and your armor is the consistency of damp cardboard.  The inclusion of B-Pods is a headscratcher in the first place, but the inclusion of two separate half tons of LMG ammo when it could have instead had eight LMGs and a single half ton (for a total of 12 shots and change per array, which is still fine) puts it over the top into a baffling config from top to bottom.  Having to get close to infantry is suicide in something this thin-skinned, and if you absolutely must murder infantry in job lots then between all of the tonnage spent on these LMGs, ammo, arrays, and the Flamer this could have very well had a Plasma Cannon and ammo.  Which would be very hard not to see as a pure upgrade.  Heat is a total non-issue, even at a maximum distance jump this config nets -3 heat.  The BV is kinder, at 1084, but the knots you have to twist yourself into in order to get reasonable use out of it are not worth the effort.  D

Arctic Cheetah (Hankyu) F: Ah, here's something more my flavor.  Two Improved Heavy Medium Lasers start strong by promising no-frills PSRs without having to chain together six successful hits, and while I'm still not enamored with Streak LRM 5s they are at least reliable.  There's still a Flamer here, which I still don't like and am choosing to ignore now that it's not required to force a PSR.  Also along for the ride is a Watchdog CEWS so your zippy under-armored Light can provide some benefit without being under enemy guns.  There's also a Light TAG, which I am somehow even more indifferent to than regular TAG.  Jumping and firing both iHMLs is 20 heat on the nose and heat neutral.  If both of your Streak LRM 5s lock you go up to +4 heat.  This is as efficient on the heat scale as any of this configs has been yet, so I'm inclined to call it good.  BV is higher than the E and lower than the T at 1394, while I'm pretty sure that it's better than both by a substantial margin.  This doesn't make it good because you can't fix poor armor on an Omni but it's definitely not something I'd actively avoid looking at.  C+

Arctic Cheetah (Hankyu) I: Oh look, a Plasma Cannon!  Simply by existing with a Plasma Cannon, this config does the anti-infantry schtick better than the E did.  The Flamer is still here, and while it's switched torsos a couple times so far I'm starting to think it's "fixed" in the same way the Warhawk's Targeting Computer is.  Two SRM 4s with two tons of ammo (the "Inferno Special" as it were) even more firmly cements this config as just plain better than the E at everything the E dreamed it could be.  Poor thing.  Firing all non-Flamer guns at a run puts this up to +2 heat, jumping can get it all the way to +6.  I don't recommend doing that, and feel like the first thing left off is the Plasma Cannon into anything 'Mech or Fighter, while the iHML is the first thing to stop using against anything conventional that doesn't have to be thresholded.  That's a solid and easy PSR one way or another if all three damage-dealing weapons connect, but it does take all three of them to force one.  Could be better, could be worse.  The BV is 1299, making it the second cheapest and also arguably second best config so far.  This is another one I wouldn't instinctively resent being assigned.  C

Arctic Cheetah (Hankyu) J: This one sure is, though.  An ER Large Laser is the only silver lining, backed up by an ER Small Laser, a Flamer, and a Protomech AC/2.  All of this combines to deal a tragic 19 damage if everything hits.  The ammo for the PAC is in the torso while the PAC is in the arm, meaning that not only is the torso vulnerable to ammo explosion loss but that losing either location is exactly as much of a lost weapon.  I'd have liked to see this ammo in the arm for a simple improvement that costs nothing, albeit one that doesn't actually make me want to use it any more.  Jumping and firing all guns takes us to +4 heat, because somehow a configuration this disappointing just couldn't bear to be heat neutral.  The BV then has the audacity to not be the lowest so far, at 1179, placing it firmly at the back of the pack.  There is something to be said about having the longest average effective range and the most damage at range out of any Arctic Cheetah config so far, but you're piloting a papier mache facsimile of a real sniping unit and your luck genuinely only has to run out once.  Not a fan of those odds.  F

Kontio: I'm going to take some heat for this, but I hate this 'Mech.  Which is a shame, because it genuinely tries to innovate, by putting Stealth Armor and TSM on a Clan machine with melee weapons.  That's unusual and distinctive, and I don't hate it conceptually.  What I do hate is that the melee weapons used were Claws, that the speed is very high at 7/11[14] with a Supercharger and TSM to push it to 8/12[16] which is coincidentally I'm sure a bad TMM break for BV calculations and I'm not irritated you're irritated.  If there's a single thing that Warbear designs do universally that drives me up the ****** wall it's run at full speed into bad TMM breaks for BV, in new and unique ways.  The Dominator's 5/8[10]/5 profile looks positively quaint next to the Amarok's incredible 4/5[7] and the Kontio's 7(8 )/11(12)[14]([16]).  Just typing that gave me a headache.  The Claws I likewise dislike, because they're +1 to hit, meaning that with a default skill of 4/5 you're looking at what is very likely to be a 5 + 1 (claws) + 2 (ran) + 2 (opponent TMM) to start at 10s without either paying BV to increase skill, going after targets much more likely to be able to paste you with guns regardless of modifiers, or making yourself easier to hit by walking.  We'll come back to that BV comment later, but for now let's keep going with the part I genuinely like, the guns.  TSM is tricky to manage on even well designed units, but the Kontio plays that part well.  We have two Medium Pulse Lasers that I'm a fan of basically everywhere they've ever been used, we have six ER Small Lasers, and we have a Micro Pulse Laser.  For those keeping track at home, we have increments of 10 (Stealth armor), two of 4 (MPLs), six of 2 (ER SLs), one of 1 (MiPL), and one variable 1-2 (movement).  With that combination we can get any heat level we could possibly want from exactly neutral (Stealth + MPLs + run) to +9 (Stealth + MPLs + run + 4x ER SL + MiPL) or higher, and maintain any heat level we want indefinitely.  Every single weapon is in the torsos, too, meaning we'll never have to avoid using one to use the Claws.  Top marks for being able to manage TSM beautifully.  That takes us back to the BV, though, which is where this whole 'Mech falls apart.  Errata changed the BV up to 1912, which is a lot for a 40 ton 'Mech even with good speed and decent armor.  In order to make the primary gimmick of TSM'd claws that can headcap, you want to be hitting most targets on better than 10s, which means pilot skill upgrades.  That means taking this thing well above 2000 BV (just 4/4 is 2103) to even begin to start getting good use out of its primary function.  That's richer than I'm comfortable paying for.  Much like most other Warbear 'Mechs, the capability is excellent, but every possible cost-efficiency measure has been tossed with unerring precision right out the window.  In a magical world where I'm not paying BV to use one, a solid B.  In the world I live in that's balanced by BV, a D is being charitable.

Hunchback C: Quick, everyone who has played against a Hunchback HBK-4G in 3025, what would be the one thing that makes it scarier?  If you answered "it goes 6/9" you'd be corrected.  That would get you halfway to the monstrosity of the Hunchback C, which does that and also gets you an Ultra AC/20 with four tons of ammo for your trouble.  This version of everyone's favorite schoolyard bully is fully Clantech, including the fancy XL Engine and the pair of Medium Pulse Lasers in the arms and the ER Small Laser in the head.  It's even arguably oversinked with 13 doubles, neutral at a run when firing all weapons including the UAC/20 in rapid fire.  The armor is good, there's no crunchy Inner Sphere XL to ruin your fun halfway into the game, you're fast, the rest of your guns are also good, and you have the ammo to hold down the trigger on decent numbers and still have ammo left late game.  I would say that the BV of 1893 slows it down a little bit, but that would be a lie.  It's a good pick for its cost.  Imagine paying 50% more than a Blitzkrieg to slow it down a little bit and then just be... more, in every way.  That's a Hunchback C.  B+

Ostroc OSR-2D: I don't have a lot to say about the Ostroc 2D.  Moving at 5/8, We have a pair of IS ER Large Lasers, two Medium Lasers, and an SRM 4.  The only major misstep in those weapons is the SRM ammo is in the center torso and unprotected.  Fifteen doubles keep heat manageable at range, but you can get to +5 running when within secondary weapon range.  A standard engine and decent armor means you'll be around for a while, not dangerous enough for your opponent to fully commit to bringing down, but still contributing meaningful damage.  PSRs aren't easy to come by at range but they're not difficult to come by up close, and all weapons are in the torsos so the arms are free to punch if necessary.  Speaking of the arms, one of the unique traits of the Ostroc is that they're superfluous, and actually treated as superfluous by dint of having a grand total of 8 points of armor on them.  Turns out you don't care, though, because there is nothing important about them whatsoever and losing them means nothing to you.  The rest of the armor is good-not-great, better than most Mediums can mount but worse than maximum.  This is the very definition (aside from the ammo) of low risk no frills low end heavy trooper, and the BV reflects that at 1396.  Find a half ton or a ton to put in CASE or CASE II and move the ammo to a side-torso and we'll talk about a better grade, but this is a solid performer.  B

Ostroc OSR-3M: I... am kind of stunned at how much worse this is than the regular 2D, but it still has the audacity to cost more.  The weapons are "upgraded" to ER Mediums and a Streak SRM 4, and we gain a Supercharger in the center torso to go to 5/8[10].  In order to make this fit, the trade-off is to go down to 12 double heat sinks, such that a run and just the ER Large Lasers is now +2, including the ER Mediums is +12, and if the Streak happens to lock while you're doing that you go up to +15.  Technically there's also some tonnage freed up by Light Ferro-Fibrous, but the actual armor values are identical.  For the privilege of running hotter, faster, and incrementally longer range, your reward is to go up almost 200 points to 1594.  Subtraction by addition.  D

Ostroc OSR-6R: The Ostroc 6R goes places, and I'm not entirely sure I want to be with it when it does.  First things first, we've ditched the standard engine for an Inner Sphere XL to go 6/9.  We've also ditched the standard armor to go to equal tonnage of Reflective.  You might remember the armor being somewhat average before.  Going to Reflective helps against a lot of very efficient light 'Mechs bullying you, but it does basically nothing against a big Heavy, and you're now fast enough and dangerous enough to be worth picking out of a crowd.  How dangerous?  All your energy guns are now Clan, including both ER Large Lasers and ER Medium Lasers, and you have the heat sinks to fire them indefinitely with 18 doubles.  If the (Inner Sphere) Streak SRM 4 locks, you generate +3 on a run.  This is probably mildly oversinked, and I'd have been happy with 16 doubles if it meant more armor.  The Streak ammo is protected by CASE II in the right torso, which is a nice bonus.  Overall this variant is significantly more dangerous and also likely to attract significantly more attention, but in my estimation it's going to do decently well against most enemies (except, perhaps ironically, itself).  BV is high at 2095, but you're paying for a weird Clan high-end Medium and you're getting about the same back, minus some durability concerns.  C+

Ostroc OSR-9C: It's difficult to look at this when it's the next page after the souped up 6C.  We're slower - much slower, 4/6 with a Standard Engine, with the first Introductory tech variant in the book.  Jump jets are included, but only 3.  Armor is imperceptibly improved by eight points concentrated on the center torso to bring it up to respectable protection.  Weapons consist of paired Large Lasers, Medium Lasers, and SRM 2s.  Tapping directly into my worst nightmares, the SRM 2 ammo is in the center torso.  Nineteen single heat sinks struggle with the heat load from just firing three total lasers.  Two Larges, a Medium, and a run is +2 heat.  Adding more than that is as bad an idea as it sounds on something this slow, and firing all guns gets you right to +9.  It'd be neat if there were TSM here, but there isn't.  BV is the lowest of any variant so far at 1230, but I struggle to want to pay for this over the 2D, which feels appreciably better in basically every way for barely 150 more.  I'm not a fan of it.  D+

Cyclops C: This 'Mech leaves me conflicted.  On the one hand, it's very funny.  On the other, I lampooned the Amarok for wasting the potential of Hardened Armor, and this 'Mech does that but more.  The techbase is pure Clan, and it mirrors the original Cyclops 10Z to the smallest detail, except better.  We have: big ballistic gun (Gauss instead of AC/20; two tons of ammo), LRM 10 (Streak; one ton ammo), SRM 4 (Streak; one ton ammo), and two Medium Lasers (ER).  We have 10 double heat sinks, which is actually enough to fire all of that and not worry about anything (exactly neutral at a run).  Everything that can explode is protected by CASE II in the right torso.  Where this variant takes an exciting leap off the rails and into the abyss of new ideas is the armor, which I've mentioned is Hardened.  What I didn't mention is that it's the exact same configuration of armor as on the original Cyclops.  Point for point.  Which means that this is twice as durable, yes, but also means it's still shy of equivalent protection from maximum standard armor.  It essentially trades some very small protection from crits for a PSR penalty and a run MP penalty.  The arms have 10 points of armor and 15 points of structure.  The legs have 17 points of armor and 19 points of structure.  The torsos are appreciably better armored, but even with Hardened Armor several of these locations are struggling to be as protected as a middle-end heavy, on a 90 ton 'Mech.  It's maddening.  Compare directly to the Mastodon, only 5 tons heavier.  The Center Torso by a significant amount the most well armored location on this 'mech, takes 89 points to destroy, over 20 points less than the Mastodon using standard armor.  The legs take 53 effective damage, a full 27 points fewer than the Mastodon's 80.  The level of durability just is not there.  The BV is also fairly high at 2252.  This is one that I can see being useful if you want to distract your opponent with a 'Mech that looks easier to kill than it is, but it's still not particularly difficulty.  I'm not a fan.  C-

Regent Prime: This is just not my book, I guess.  I will be upfront, I hate this 'Mech.  It takes something that is intelligently designed but also about as boring as it's possible to be (90 tons 3/5 with standard everything and max armor), and then it does things that are literally the opposite of original with them, deliberately mimicking another 'Mech's iconic features.  Sequelitis, thy name is Regent.  The Prime here is one of the better ones, mimicking the Hauptmann.  Specifically, we have (and this is all Clantech, mind you) three ER Large Lasers, two Medium Pulse Lasers, a Micro Pulse Laser, a Streak SRM 4, and an LB-20X.  The LB-20X has two tons of ammo and the Streak has one, which is lighter on autocannon ammo than I'd prefer but it's hard to get that tonnage back anywhere here.  Nineteen doubles make firing all three ER Large Lasers possible indefinitely plus running (net zero).  Once the range closes to 12 hexes, the LB-20X and both Medium Pulse Lasers can join in for +2 running.  If the Streak is included, and locks, you're immediately up to +5 which is a bad break but could definitely be worse.  Sinking heat involves dropping the LB-20X if you're on bad numbers or a Medium Pulse if you're on good numbers with the big gun.  The BV on this config is genuinely good at 2437, and if I didn't dislike the concept so much it would be a solid contender for an Assault weight formation.  I'm not going to let my dislike color the grade, though, so this gets an A

Regent A: Ah, here's the one I genuinely dislike.  It's a deliberate facsimile of an Awesome, with three Clan ER PPCs with Capacitors tied to a Targeting Computer, plus an ER Medium Laser.  It lacks the heat sinks even with 26 doubles to fire all three at once, but it can reasonably fire two and charge the third capacitor while contributing the ER Medium Laser at a run with no issue.  This makes the firing pattern 2-1-2-1, where the heat scale effects are +0, -17, +0, -17.  I am not a huge fan.  This is before considering what three cap'd ER PPCs and a Targeting Computer does to the BV, which is skyrocket it to 3416.  Yeah, you can have this one, I don't want it.  D-

Regent B: I don't remember what this one is mimicking, but it's doing an alright job of it at least.  Two ER PPCs, two ER Medium Lasers, an Ultra AC/20, and four ER Micro Lasers.  The UAC has three tons of ammo, just on the wrong side of not enough, and a total of 23 double heat sinks.  At range, this translates to the two ER PPCs for -14.  Up close, once the range gets to 15 hexes, it becomes both ER PPCs and both ER Medium Lasers for -6.  When the range drops to 12, I'm not entirely sure what the intended pattern is.  Both ER PPCs and the Ultra AC/20 are heat neutral at a run.  Adding an ER Medium Laser slows down an already very slow 'Mech, dropping an ER PPC for the Medium Lasers is still ice cold at -5.  You can alternate +5/-5 by toggling the ER Medium Lasers, or walk to reduce the effects, but this impacts your mobility either way.  Once point blank, dropping one ER PPC makes more sense, as the full suite of guns minus one ER PPC is -1.  That's still cooler than it could be, and the patterns here are not intuitive.  It almost feels like the ER Medium Lasers are useful in a very narrow band from 9-10 and 13-15 where their numbers are distinctly better than the UAC, but that's a lot of BV to be spending on weapons you hardly ever have good reason to use.  The overall offensive package is still scary, though.  The BV climbs from the Prime but is still a steep cliff down from the A at 2744.  For my points I'd take the Prime still but this is a solid contender.  B

Regent C: This one is mimicking the Fafnir, kind of.  There's an Improved Heavy Gauss in the right torso and a HAG/40 in the left.  Both of them fill almost the entire space of their respective torso, and either one going off will completely remove it.  A total of 12 shots each is... probably not enough, given the ranges at which this can engage?  The iHGR presenting an ever present threat of putting yourself on your own ass without any opponent involvement unless you stand still is a downside, but there at least the range is a benefit.  Either one of these weapons will force a PSR on average, and heat is a complete non-issue.  I think this is a bit more boom-and-bust than I'm a fan of, especially since the "boom" is probably going to be the side of your 'Mech more likely than not.  The side torsos are protected by Clan CASE but not CASE II, not that there's really room to include it.  BV is 2561, which might be reasonable if you hit a decent amount, but if you miss even two or three times is going to be agonizing.  Not a style I'm a fan of.  B-

Regent D: I want to like this one.  I really do.  I want to like the one that's cheap, that has multiple Improved Heavy Medium Lasers (four), that leans into small caliber ballistics to take up space and reduce BV.  And then you see the record sheet and it has two Ultra AC/2s and two LB-2Xs and it's just wrong.  With two tons of ammo each.  There are also paired LRM 15s here with four tons of ammo.  All eight tons of ammo are in the side torsos, all protected by CASE II.  On average, at range you will probably be able to score a PSR.  However, a 3/5 90 ton Assault 'Mech should be forcing PSRs with a lot more reliability than "probably".  Heat at range is a complete non-issue with 12 double heat sinks (-6 at a run).  Heat up close is an issue (+6 at a run just for the iHMLs).  There's also a Small Pulse Laser in there somewhere.  Overall, the Regent D is still expensive in absolute terms at 2116 for a 'Mech that struggles at long range, struggles at short range, and has trouble staying in the range band it prefers.  This is normally okay because you can't tell which one that was in the first place, but it's a big advantage to your opponent.  Truly, an exemplary vehicle to carry on the Mauler's (terrible) legacy.  D

Kodiak 6: And then we cap off this volume of excitingly bad designs by having a very good design that is incredibly not exciting.  A 4/6 100 tonner with nearly max armor and a Clan XL engine, it's hard to go wrong with that.  Weapons include an LB-20X (two tons of ammo), a Medium Pulse Laser, two Streak SRM 6s (two tons of ammo), and eight - count 'em, eight - ER Medium Lasers.  Hose your target down with lasers, then hose them down with buckshot.  Twenty double heat sinks is enough to handle all of the ER Mediums at a run for +2, and you can mix and match as range and targets switch pretty effectively.  The LB-20X and one Streak or Medium Pulse Laser swap for two ER Mediums, and if the target is already full of holes then you can drop another laser for each other gun not already included, to a "minimum" of four ER Medium Lasers and everything else for heat neutral at a run.  The biggest downside here is a maximum range of 15 hexes, but once you do get to 15 hexes you have enough attempts with decent guns that it's hard to call it ineffective.  Once the range closes to 10 you'll simply eviscerate anything you look at.  For the adventurous among you, there are also two Coolant Pods, which let you sink 60 heat the turn one activates and is fully capable of handling the full weapon load at a run at exactly heat neutral.  Go nuts, kids.  If there's one weakness to speak of it's that there's a ton of ammo in the center torso where it doesn't need to be.  At 2922 BV it's expensive for my tastes overall but the effectiveness is undeniable. A-


F: 1
D: 7
C: 4
B: 4
A: 2
S: none

Cumulative 'Mechs by rating (series):

F: 31
D: 79
C: 145
B: 157
A: 83
S: 14
« Last Edit: 29 March 2022, 00:49:40 by Scotty »
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Scotty

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My apologies to the Regent's designer.  Me hating something doesn't mean it isn't a good addition to the universe.
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Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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The Regent B is mimicking the Hauptmann B.  You didn't mention it, but in my Mech of the Whatever writeup on it, I briefly covered the fact that the Regent B's only weapons against enemies that get into its rear are the ER Micro lasers.  Which I find to be a very bad situation for a mech that's 3/5 and built for close-range fighting.  On the other hand, given that it's got an ER Medium laser in the head and an ER PPC in the center torso, it's also the only Regent variant that's a true zombie design.
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SteelRaven

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This is where I'm at odds with the rest of the forum. I see some nitpicking of the Iron Cheetah, some just slamming the Regent (I really don't get the hate) but those same players go nuts for the Mastodon... and it really doesn't do anything for me. The Mastodon is a great design, don't get me wrong and will probably be considered one of the best Assaults for some time but everyone else is screaming like school girls over it and I can only muster a m'eh. For whatever reason, I just see myself having more fun with the other assault mechs. Maybe because the Iron Cheetah and Regent stated off as fan designs, I'm just happier to see them finally made canon. Maybe the Mastodon is just looking too good at being a bullet sponge and I feel the need for a challenge. I don't know.   
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Scotty

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This is where I'm at odds with the rest of the forum. I see some nitpicking of the Iron Cheetah, some just slamming the Regent (I really don't get the hate) but those same players go nuts for the Mastodon... and it really doesn't do anything for me. The Mastodon is a great design, don't get me wrong and will probably be considered one of the best Assaults for some time but everyone else is screaming like school girls over it and I can only muster a m'eh. For whatever reason, I just see myself having more fun with the other assault mechs. Maybe because the Iron Cheetah and Regent stated off as fan designs, I'm just happier to see them finally made canon. Maybe the Mastodon is just looking too good at being a bullet sponge and I feel the need for a challenge. I don't know.

The Mastodon's increase in durability is very difficult to really understand without having played against one.  That thing is just shockingly tough to crack, whereas a Regent is exactly as durable as any other 90 ton 'Mech.  That's to say it's durable, but it's uninspiring in its durability.  The weapon loadouts also tend to have significant drawbacks or downsides, whether it's inflexibility and high variance (Regent C), odd heat curves that either don't take advantage of heat as a resource and are way too expensive (Regent A, B), or are just plain awful (Regent D).  The worst Mastodon config is one where if you just ignore the Plasma Cannons it works perfectly fine if a bit too expensive.  All of the others have intuitive firing patterns and heat management, hit like a truck consistently without breaking the bank, and have the extra durability to fall back on besides.

It's really difficult to oversell how good the Mastodon feels to put on the table.
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SteelRaven

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Again, I'm not doubting the Mastodon is a great design. It's just not making me as giddy as it does you and I still can really say why.   
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Starfury

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While I know Scotty's reviews are designed to be both era and faction agnostic, all of the Longbow missile variants are awesome for any Marik, Periphery, or merc fire support lances, no matter what era you use them.  The 0W2 and the 8C are also supposed to be the original versions of those mechs from what I have heard on the forums which is a nice homage to the past. The one with the 26 rocket launchers and two PPCs fits the Marian Hegemony's bruiser mech refits to the T, and I'd definitely use it along with their line of T-bolts and other troopers, or to defend assault fire lances of other support units like the GOL 2 and 6H. I love rocket launchers, and delivering lots of them in a great deluge fills my old anime soul with glee.

The Ostroc 2D is now the proper missing link between the Royal Ostroc which has Ferro-Fibrous and Streak 2s, and the original 2C.  I'm not sold on the 3M's lesser heat sink capacity, but since it's a Regulan design I wonder if it was intented to have TSM along with the supercharger.

Jellico

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The question with the Mastodon is whether the extra 9.5 tons of structure (145 hit points) is worth the extra 10 tons of guns of a Dire Wolf. Personally I find a good Dire Wolf at least equal so was surprised at the kudos the Mastodon received.

I can't believe you missed the Cyclops C's biggest fault. The torso bomb. This 'Mech kills pilots and leaves a salvageable 'Mech. You don't even need to hose out the cockpit.
That said the BV is pretty much spot on. A 'Mech roughly equal to an AS-7K for a fraction of the price.
The Cyclops doesn't make full use of the benefits of Hardened Armor, but I still think there is room to explore lower levels of it like with the Rokurokubi.

Kojak

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Scotty, I'm curious to know if your opinion of the Mastodon D or Rime Otter D changes at all if the two are being used in combination.


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MarauderD

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Two new volumes in two days.  Woot!

Funny thing on the new Kodiak sheet.  I didn't even notice that there was a ton of Ammo in the CASEd CT.  I have such bad luck when I fight against Kodiaks, that I know it wouldn't come into play if my opponent fielded one.  Then again, if I fielded a new Kodiak, pretty sure a golden BB would crit that spot on Round 3 of the match.  Perfect example of an infighter so nasty it is totally worth running the risk.

Scotty

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The question with the Mastodon is whether the extra 9.5 tons of structure (145 hit points) is worth the extra 10 tons of guns of a Dire Wolf. Personally I find a good Dire Wolf at least equal so was surprised at the kudos the Mastodon received.

We've sparred on this a couple times, but podspace tonnage is completely irrelevant after a certain point, and that point is somewhere around 30 tons.  At that point any intelligently designed config is going to be fully capable of destroying any target in a reasonable time frame and the comparisons are going to come down to durability and speed, and comparisons between individual configs.  The speed is a conclusive tie, and the durability is an unambiguous win for the Mastodon.

Here's a fun exercise: build a Mastodon config exactly on a Dire Wolf, and see what other capability you can install with the remaining podspace.  In every case I can think of the extra space is not at all going to be more effective than being 20% more durable.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MarauderD

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I can't believe you missed the Cyclops C's biggest fault. The torso bomb. This 'Mech kills pilots and leaves a salvageable 'Mech. You don't even need to hose out the cockpit.

Honest question, not snark.  I see that CASE II is installed here--so are you referring to the likelyhood that if some Ammo detonates and injures the pilot, there is a likelyhood that more ammo detonates and knocks the pilot out or kills it?

Isn't having CASE II installed preferable to no case at all?  Not sure what you're getting at here other than this mech carries several tons of ammo.

Scotty

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I discovered some months ago (definitely not years ago, it slipped by me for a long time) that CASE II has a ~42% chance of completely negating crits that are generated from internal explosions.  Between that and the Gauss Rifle's inability to explode twice that torso is definitely not ideal but it's less pilot lethal than it looks at first glance.
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Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Empyrus

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The Gauss rifle is the most likely thing to explode in the first place, and any resulting explosion is most likely sinked by the weapon again. Not terribly bad as torso bombs go, there are worse things around.

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I discovered some months ago (definitely not years ago, it slipped by me for a long time) that CASE II has a ~42% chance of completely negating crits that are generated from internal explosions.  Between that and the Gauss Rifle's inability to explode twice that torso is definitely not ideal but it's less pilot lethal than it looks at first glance.
CASE II also limits the internal structure damage to only 1 point, meaning an ammo explosion doesn't destroy the whole location. CASE II can prevent unit loss by ammo explosion for 'Mechs with ammo in the CT, Head, IS XL engine, or an XXL engine.

Side note, for some reason when I started playing the game I thought regular CASE worked like CASE II does.
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Jellico

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Near uniquely the problem isn't cascading explosions. When the armor gives out the explosive items are exposed to crits.

Normally with CASE something gets hit, the location evaporates, and there is a small chance of cascading explosions. The torso bomb ceases to be dangerous.

In this case with CASE II, say the Gauss Rifle goes up. The structure takes a point of damage, the pilot takes 2 hits. And all the other ammo crits are still there exposed with no padding. The next hit is likely to hit ammo. 2 pilot hits etc. And there is still more ammo to hit.

Throw in falls from the Hardened Armor and the pilot won't be feeling too good. In testing it was a really common way for the 'Mech to die.

MarauderD

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Perhaps I'm wrong--but I think CASE II continues to function even after its first use?  There would still be more Gauss Rifle crits to hit as well--wouldn't there?

Scotty

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Hardened definitely is a major contributor.  Pilot damage takes out things like Stalker IIs and Viking IICs significantly faster than raw damage, though the errata to Hardened some years back that makes it take 40 effective damage to force a PSR helps a lot.

Perhaps I'm wrong--but I think CASE II continues to function even after its first use?  There would still be more Gauss Rifle crits to hit as well--wouldn't there?

Once the Gauss is hit once the rest of the crits are inert.  The same Gauss rifle cannot explode multiple times.
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It can't explode, but my impression is that the remaining slots can still absorb crits, yes?
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MarauderD

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Once the Gauss is hit once the rest of the crits are inert.  The same Gauss rifle cannot explode multiple times.

Correct, but exactly as Weirdo states above, it can't explode--but aren't there more crits to be hit for the Gauss?  Or can it not sink more crits once it is destroyed?

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Many thanks Scotty for the feedback. You have made me discover hidden gems.  :thumbsup:
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It can't explode, but my impression is that the remaining slots can still absorb crits, yes?

TW p134 agrees

Quote
only mark off as destroyed the critical slot that was hit. If a Gauss rifle takes a critical hit, treat the result as a 20-point ammunition explosion in the location containing the rifle. The Gauss rifle is immediately powered down and further hits to other critical slots have no effect during game play.

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Heavyguard

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@scotty are your reviews compiled in one place or scattered through the RecGuide Discussions?

Xotl

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If it helps, check the first post in the thread and you can see a master list of links to them.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Scotty

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@scotty are your reviews compiled in one place or scattered through the RecGuide Discussions?

The first post of this thread has a link to all of them that currently exist.  They started after volume 24 was released.
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Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Colt Ward

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Yeah, the other crits on that gauss rifle still matter and are tracked (one just to have them accounted for) but really matter when playing with salvage/repair rules.  The more crits (to include all) determine what happens to the gauss rifle in the repair phase- how hard/long do you have to work to repair it.
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Arkansas Warrior

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I’ll freely admit I’m not qualified to rate mechs in the way Scotty does.  I’ve played on the tabletop.  I’ve even played BV balanced games (occasionally).  But I don’t really “speak BV” so to speak.  My perspective on Battletech is definitely fiction-first.  So it should come as little surprise that I have a completely different take on the Regent than Scotty does.  I think it’s exactly what an omnimech should be.  Replicating multiple designs on one chassis simplifies logistics enormously and is exactly what omnis should always have been doing all along.  There should be a 5/8/5 55 tonner that has configs replicating the classic trio (and the jumping Trebuchet etc).  There should be a top-end 4/6 heavy Omni with configs that replicate the Marauder, Warhammer, Archer, Black Knight, Grasshopper, etc.  Is it boring?  Yeah, maybe.  But it makes total in-universe sense.  Also, I completely adore the A config.  3 20 point hits out to 23 hexes every other turn with essentially no heat or ammo worries?  Yes please.


I should admit to pro-Regent bias because I like the fiction around it for other reasons, but even laying that aside I love this mech.  More of this, please.
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MarauderD

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I just like the Battle Pope--but the Regent certainly doesn't bother or offend me.

Colt Ward

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Honestly, Reinforced Structure is one of those things IMO you have to play to see how it really gives.  Watching people's attitude about finally getting past the armor to get the crunchy bits . . . and then have their roles reduced is entertaining.  I used the Reinforced IS Mongoose from the RecGuides . . . it drew attention from 3 heavy mechs, 2 with Prec Ammo at short ranges (negating a lot of my speed advantage) but managed to stand in when the opponent thought he was going to knock the Mongoose out of the fight in one salvo.  It did not hurt when the Mongoose's fire managed to get past back armor to get a crit either.

The Regent/Awesome's firing pattern to me was a constant 2 ERPPCs, a Cap'd ERPPC every other turn, and the ERML when in range & the CapERPPC is not firing.

But heck, I would only cap 1 of the ERPPCs once I was in mid-range in the first place- your damage goes lower (potential 27 over two turns vs 30) but you get that 20 point hit chance.
Colt Ward
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