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Author Topic: PRE SW House Militaries  (Read 5205 times)

DarthRads

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PRE SW House Militaries
« on: 08 July 2011, 22:47:50 »
I don't have Reunification War yet (Still wrestlingwith the PDF vs DTF dilemma). But based on the information in that book, does anyone have any new theories  regarding House Militaries at the dawn of the SW era?

We Know the CapCon had 129 Mech Regiments (interestingly noted as Front Line Regiments...) and the LyrCom had 122 based on statements int he old housebooks and FM series,,  but what about the others, and the fleets.

I have a theory, but should probably wait until I have resolved my dilemma and have H:RW...

MadCapellan

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #1 on: 08 July 2011, 22:56:35 »
Considering that the number of BattleMech Regiments were capped by Star League law, I'd say all five houses were probably hovering around 120 regiments just prior to the opening conflicts, not counting whatever SLDF troops they had just convinced to sign on.

Blacknova

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #2 on: 08 July 2011, 23:24:37 »
MadCapellan has a good point. I would also add that the average strength of the House Militaries, after the EW, was approximately 80 regiments each.

However, the SLSB does mention the doubling of the House Militaries during the Regency of Kerensky.  If the average during the SL period was close to the 80 mentioned above, this would have allowed expansions up to a 160 regiment ceiling.

I can't remember if there were any other downsizing to a 60 regiment average, so the two don't mesh, unless the average was 80, then expanded to 160, but the House Militaries only had the time to get halfway there by the time the fighting broke out at the end of the SL period.
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DarthRads

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #3 on: 08 July 2011, 23:47:30 »
SLSB states that the Edict of 2650 limited the house militaries, later it's repeal duringt he regency allowed an increase tot he point that the SLDF units in each realm would no longer outnumber the house forces 2:1.

I have another theory that allows House forces to be much larger...Militia Regiments. I refuse to believe that the March Militia's and Mark Militias and all of those were counted as Front Line forces. Also the statement for the CapCon at 129 FRONT LINE regiments indcates that their may be second line units.

More to follow...

Hellraiser

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #4 on: 08 July 2011, 23:48:20 »
I'd go w/ the higher figure, the 1st/2nd SW not only destroyed 100% of the warship fleets but they also wiped out large #s of mech regiments.
The Suns still had 110 IIRC in 3025 but that included mercs too.
The Cappies & Mariks were down to 40-60 each IIRC while the Lyrans/Dracs were at 75/80 respectively.
So I could easily see them being at 150+ figure if not more.
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DarthRads

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #5 on: 09 July 2011, 00:10:43 »
I'd go w/ the higher figure, the 1st/2nd SW not only destroyed 100% of the warship fleets but they also wiped out large #s of mech regiments.
The Suns still had 110 IIRC in 3025 but that included mercs too.
The Cappies & Mariks were down to 40-60 each IIRC while the Lyrans/Dracs were at 75/80 respectively.
So I could easily see them being at 150+ figure if not more.

FedSuns had 78 House regiments, the rest were Merc.

Another couple of interesting points:

FedSuns (on Paper) had the largest military at the outbreak of the Wars.

HKSB pg 53: Initial assault on the FedSuns contained 1/3 of the Kurita Military…over 50 Mech regiments plus lesser regiments.

So DracComb had to have at least 150 regiments, probably slightly higher.


DarthRads

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #6 on: 09 July 2011, 00:12:39 »

I have another theory that allows House forces to be much larger...Militia Regiments. I refuse to believe that the March Militia's and Mark Militias and all of those were counted as Front Line forces. Also the statement for the CapCon at 129 FRONT LINE regiments indcates that their may be second line units.

More to follow...

My theory is that as Line Regiments were smashed, Militia units were drawn in to make up the short fall, until you get to 3025 era where there is no deliniation.

Demos

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #7 on: 09 July 2011, 03:05:02 »

I have another theory that allows House forces to be much larger...Militia Regiments. I refuse to believe that the March Militia's and Mark Militias and all of those were counted as Front Line forces. Also the statement for the CapCon at 129 FRONT LINE regiments indcates that their may be second line units.
The Marik Militia is counted as a frontline force in Reunification War.
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bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #8 on: 09 July 2011, 12:24:46 »
Here are my notes for the First Succession War.  I hope this helps you out with the size of the militaries at the start of the First Succession War.  This includes every scrap of information released in the Battletech universe about the First Succession War.  I have split it into sections to cover each of the major combatants.

The strength of the armies of the First Succession War is very easy to understand if you remember one basic fact.  There are two versions of the Star League Defense Forces.  The first version appears in the Original Periphery Sourcebook.  The second version appears in the Star League Sourcebook.  All of the House militaries that appear in the original five sourcebooks are based against the original version of the SLDF. 

The reason for this discrepancy is that FASA made the decision to expand the size of the Inner Sphere and Periphery from less than 1000 worlds to over inhabited 3000 worlds just before the release of the House sourcebooks so the maps in the back of each of the books and the atlas sections were added after the books have been written.  The Star League sourcebook was written after the change in the size of the universe was made so only the SLDF and the Rim Worlds military were altered to match the new size of the Inner Sphere and Periphery

The Original SLDF
This information is drawn primarily from the Periphery SB and Mercenary Handbook.  Additional bits of information are drawn from ‘Mechwarrior, the five House books, and the original editions of the board games.

At the end of the Reunification War, the Original SLDF was comprised of 11 corps:
   Star Guard Corps
   First (Terran) Corps
   Second (Rigilian) Corps
   Third (Altairian) Corps
   Fourth (Formalhaut) Corps
   Fifth (Sirian) Corps
   Sixth (Astan) Corps
   Seventh (Procyon) Corps
   First Reserve Corps
   Second Reserve Corps
   Eleventh Corps (created in the fight against the Taurian Concordat)
Originally the SLDF consisted of ten corps comprising 270 line regiments.  During the war, 18 regular line regiments are mobilized and sent off to fight the Rim Worlds Republic.  Initially 5 independent Striker regiments are also formed during the war against the Taurian Concordat.  Elite battalions are drawn from the four line corps that was fighting against the TDF are also used to form the Eleventh Corps along with the 5 Striker regiments.  The elite battalions from the four line corps are replaced with newly mobilized reserves.  The Regimental Combat Teams and the Rapid Deployment Mixed Armed Forces (RDMAF) are post-war creations.

At the time of the fall of the Star League, the SLDF had a total strength of 10 armies of three corps each (30 corps).  The 30 corps deployed 90 line divisions (810 line regiments or the equivalent of 270 battlemech regiments), 30 armored divisions (270 armored regiments), 5 Regimental Combat Teams (20 battlemech regiments), approximately 120 independent battlemech regiments, and the RDMAF (20+ battlemech regiments).  The average SLDF corps would contain three line divisions, an armored division, and 3 to 5 independent regiments.  The corps would also be assigned a fleet of 50 warships for support.

The Original SLDF deployed five basic types of forces: line regiments, independent regiments, armored regiments, Regimental Combat Teams (RCT), and the Rapid Deployment Mixed Arm Forces (RDMAF).

The first SLDF force is the line regiments.  The line regiments are combined-arms regiments comprising various combinations of aerospace fighters, armor, artillery, battlemechs, and infantry.  There are four basic types of line regiments: Heavy Assault, Regular, Horse, and Light Horse.  The line regiments are organized in a triangular structure:
Three line companies to a battalion
Three line battalions to a regiment
Three line regiments to a brigade
Three line brigades to a division
Three line divisions to a corps
The Periphery SB does not state three platoon/lances to a company.  A standard SLDF line (battlemech) company will always deploy three ‘mech lances and an aerospace lance.  The line brigade is the standard combat force of the original SLDF.  The original SLDF had a total force of 810 line regiments organized into 270 line brigades (90 line divisions).  There are four types of line brigades:

Heavy Assault
Designated: Heavy Assault or Heavy Cavalry
The Heavy Assault line regiment is composed primarily of heavy battlemechs and heavy armor.  The Heavy Assault regiment is organized as the following:
Four Heavy battlemech line companies (with three ‘mech lances and an aerospace lance)
Four Heavy armor companies (three armor lances)
Artillery Company comprising three Self Propelled Artillery {SPA} lances

Every corps will have at least one Heavy Assault brigade (three heavy assault regiments) and the 1st Division of the Star Guard Corps will have three Heavy Assault brigades.  No Heavy Assault brigades are assigned to the two reserve corps during the Reunification War.  The Heavy Assault Brigade is the equivalent of the following:
Reinforced Heavy Battlemech Regiment – 144 heavy to assault ‘mechs
Reinforced Heavy Armor Regiment – 144 heavy to assault tanks
Artillery Battalion – 36 SPAS
Reinforced Heavy Aerospace Wing – 24 heavy aerospace fighters

Regular
Designated: Regular, Battle, or Ranger
The Regular line regiment is composed of an equal number of medium battlemech companies, medium tank companies, and infantry.  The Regular line Regiment is organized as the following:
Three Medium Battlemech line companies (with three ‘mech lances and an aerospace lance)
Three Medium Armored companies (with three armor lances and a SPA lance)
Three Mechanized Infantry Companies

The Regular Line Brigade is the most common formation of the Original SLDF.  The Regular Line Brigade is the equivalent of the following:
Medium Battlemech Regiment – 108 battlemechs
Medium Armored Regiment – 108 armored vehicles
Mechanized Infantry Regiment – 756 infantry in 27 platoon carrying APC
Artillery Battalion – 36 SPAS
Medium Aerospace Wing – 18 medium aerospace fighters

Horse
Designated: Chasseurs, Lancers, or Hussars
The Horse line regiments are designed for rapid exploitation with large numbers of jump infantry and SPA.  The Horse line regiment is organized as the following:
Three Light Battlemech line companies (with three jump capable ‘mech lances and an aerospace lance)
Four jump infantry companies (with three jump infantry platoons)
Two artillery companies (with three SPA lances)

The Horse Line Brigade is the second most common type of force of the Original SLDF.  The Horse Line Brigade is the equivalent of the following:
Light Battlemech Regiment – 108 battlemechs
Reinforced Jump Infantry Regiment – 756 jump infantry
Two artillery battalions – 72 SPA in total
Light Aerospace Wing – 18 light aerospace fighters

Light Horse
The Light Horse Line regiment has a ratio of seven infantry battalions to a light battlemech battalion.  A Light Horse line regiment is organized as the following:
Light Battlemech line company (with three ‘mech lances and an aerospace lance)
Four Special Forces companies (three heavy foot infantry platoons)
Three Combat Engineer companies (three combat engineer platoons)
Artillery Company (three artillery lances)

The Light Horse Brigade is the least common unit in the SLDF.  The Light Horse Brigade is designed for operations in areas that preclude large numbers of ‘mechs and armored vehicles.  The Light Horse Line Brigade is the equivalent of the following:
Light Battlemech Battalion – 36 battlemechs
Artillery Battalion – 36 artillery pieces
Four Special Forces battalions – 1008 Special Forces infantry
Three Combat Engineer battalions – 756 combat engineers
Light Aerospace squadron – 6 light aerospace fighters

Armored Units
The Original SLDF deployed a significant number of armored units unlike the revised second version in the Star League SB.  The Original SLDF deployed an armored division made up of nine armored regiments augmented with artillery (organized into three brigades) to each corps.  The following two armored divisions are known:
Black Chargers Armored Division – Star Guard Corp
15th Terran Armored Division – Seventh Corps

Independent Regiments
Independent regiments are battlemech regiments heavily augmented with aerospace fighters and conventional forces.  During the Reunification War, the SLDF realized that the line regiments were not versatile enough in combat against the Taurian Concordat.  The SLDF initially created five Striker regiments to respond to those problems.  More Striker regiments were created as the war went on as well as independent regiments of Heavy Cavalry and Light Horse.  An average of three to five independent regiments would be assigned to each corps.  The original SLDF had approximately 120 independent (battlemech) regiments.

Striker (Independent) regiment
The Striker regiment is an independent medium battlemech regiment of four augmented battalions.  After the invention of the Land-Air battlemech, one or two companies of every Striker regiment is converted to LAMs.  Three of the battalions are battlemech and the fourth is a reinforced conventional battalion.  The Striker regiment will deploy the following:
Medium battlemech battalion (three Striker battalions) organized into:
Three medium battlemech companies (with three ‘mech lances, airmobile special forces platoon, and an aerospace lance)
Artillery company (four airmobile artillery lances)
Conventional Battalion organized into:
Artillery company (four airmobile artillery lances)
Three Special Forces companies (four airmobile infantry platoons)

The Striker regiment would deploy the following: 108 ‘mechs, 18 aerospace fighters, 588 Special Forces infantry, and 64 air-mobile artillery pieces

Heavy Cavalry (Independent) regiment
The Heavy Cavalry regiment is an independent heavy battlemech regiment of four augmented battalions.  The Heavy Cavalry regiment would deploy the following:
Heavy Battlemech battalions (three battalions) organized into:
Three heavy battlemech companies (with three ‘mech lances and an aerospace lance)
Artillery Company (three SPA lances)
Reinforced Heavy Tank Battalion organized into:
Four Heavy armor companies (three armor lances)

The Heavy Cavalry regiment would deploy the following: 108 heavy ‘mechs, 18 heavy aerospace fighters, 36 SPA, 48 heavy tanks

Light Horse (Independent) Regiment
The Light Horse regiment is considerably different from the Light Horse Line regiment.  The Light Horse regiment consists of three augmented battlemech battalions (one Heavy Cavalry and two Recon battalions) and a conventional support battalion.  The Light Horse Regiment is organized as the following:
Two Light (Recon) battlemech battalions organized into:
Three light battlemech companies (with three ‘mech lances, an armor lance, and an aerospace lance)
One Heavy (Heavy Cavalry) battlemech battalion organized into:
Three heavy battlemech companies (with three ‘mech lances, heavy armor lance, and an aerospace lance)
Artillery Company (three SPA lances)
One Support Battalion organized into:
Artillery Company (three SPA lances)
Mechanized infantry company (three mechanized platoons)
Jump Infantry company (three jump infantry platoons)
Armored company (three light armor lances)

The (Independent) Light Horse Regiment would deploy the following: 108 light ‘mechs, 18 light aerospace fighters, 24 SPA, 48 tanks, and 147 infantry.

Regimental Combat Teams – (20 battlemech regiments)
In 2651, the First Lord sent 5 independent regiments on maneuvers just beyond the Rim Worlds Republic.  The coordination of the five regiments was so poor that the SLDF immediately created Regimental Combat Teams.  The RCT is composed of four independent regiments (2 Striker and 2 Light Horse) under one single commander with a unified transportation and support service.  Each of the 5 RCTs were specifically assigned to a section of the League.

Rapid Deployment Mixed Arm Forces – (20+ battlemech regiments)
The RDMAF was created as a first response force to any problems arising in the Star League.  The RDMAF was deployed with four reinforced brigades each to at least 5 worlds with the headquarters of the overall force on Daneb Kaitos.  Each RDMAF brigade was comprised of the following:
Light Battlemech regiment – 108 light ‘mechs, 18 aerospace fighters
Two Hover-tank regiments – 216 hover-tanks
Two Jump infantry regiments – 1701 jump infantry
Two aerospace wings – 36 light aerospace fighters
Only one RDMAF brigade stayed behind, the Fourth Deneb Light Cavalry.

In addition to the SLDF are the 36 loyalist regiments formed by volunteers who defected from the House armies to fight in the Terran Liberation campaign.  The 36 battlemech regiments have been left unchanged in the Star League sourcebook.  In addition, Chancellor Barbera Liao lent several Capellan battlemech units to fight alongside the SLDF in the Terran Liberation campaign.  As you can see from the write-up above, the loyalist battlemech regiments made up nearly 10% of the total SLDF strength originally.  You can also see how the organization of the Clan clusters and galaxies originated from.


bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #9 on: 09 July 2011, 12:25:33 »
The LCAF
The Lyran Commonwealth Armed Forces is the one house force that we have the most information about.  The LCAF organizes its battlemech forces into combat teams which are loosely based upon the SLDF line brigades.  A combat team would comprise a battlemech regiment, three conventional regiments, and an aerospace wing.  The LCAF also organizes its conventional forces into mixed-arm combat teams of four conventional regiments and an aerospace wing.  The LCAF follows the SLDF organization with three Combat Teams to a division, three divisions plus conventional forces to a corps, and three corps to an army.

The LCAF is stated to have a total strength of 122 battlemech regiments.  There are three things to remember about this number.  The first is that all of the Lyran mercenary units are included in this total.  The second is that the Tamar Tigers (former 1st Tamar Hussars) are counted as honorary members of the LCAF and fall into this total.  And the final thing to remember is that the provincial forces are not counted as part of the LCAF.
The LCAF has the following units:
Royal Guard (5 regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th (the 5th Royal Guards are mentioned on page 87 of the original House Steiner SB)
Lyran Guards (54 regiments) –1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 35th, 36th, 37th, 38th, 39th, 40th, 41st, 42nd, 43rd, 44th, 45th, 46th, 47th, 48th, 49th, 50th, 51st, 52nd, 53rd, 54th
Arcturan Guards (36 regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, 35th, 36th
Lyran Regulars (18 regiments) – Not sequentially numbered – includes 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 65th
Tamar Tigers (former 1st Tamar Hussars)

The LCAF has the following Provincial Forces:
Donegal Guards (20 regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th
Skye Rangers (22 regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 25th
Tamar Jägers (4 regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Tamar Hussars (approximately 16 – 20 regiments)
The following force names come from the Succession Wars board game and might have existed during the First Succession War:
Donegal Regulars
Hesperus Guards
York Regulars
Odessa Regulars
Sakhalin Regulars

Known warship classes of the Lyran Commonwealth
Tharkad Class Battlecruiser
Potemkin Class Troop Carrier/Cruiser
Aegis Class Cruiser
Vigilant Class Corvette
Mako Class Corvette
Sylvester Class Transport

This is the original list of the mercenary regiments of the LCAF:
25th Heavy Assault
25th Striker
12th Heavy Assault
56th Heavy Assault
181st Heavy Assault
An unknown heavy assault regiment that would eventually form the Protectorate Steel Guard
Becks’ Battalion
23rd Republican Light Lancers (the Stealths)

This is the revised list of SLDF mercenaries presented in the Star League SB:
236th Mechanized Infantry Division
11th Royal Heavy Assault Regiment
25th Striker Regiment
231st Light Horse Regiment
567th Striker Regiment
199th Light Horse Regiment
22nd Dragoon Regiment
205th Heavy Assault Regiment
12th Heavy Assault Regiment
3002nd Heavy Tank Regiment
Hsein Hotheads (originally company size, expanded to regimental size by end of war)
Blackhearts (77th Special Operations Group – SAS, joined at end of First Succession War)
Becks’ Battalion
23rd Republican Light Lancers (the Stealths)


bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #10 on: 09 July 2011, 12:26:11 »
The Free Worlds League
The Free Worlds League military organizes its battlemech forces into 2 regiment battlemech brigades or battlemech divisions of 4 to 5 battlemech regiments.   It is hinted that the Free Worlds League organized its battlemech forces with four lances to a company (16 battlemechs); four companies to a battalion (64 battlemechs); and four battalions to a regiment (256 battlemechs).  The FWLM would also organize its armored and infantry forces into divisions.  Armored, Infantry, and Battlemech Divisions would be formed into Corps.  The major provincial forces would probably have their forces working under separate provincial corps.  For example, the Defenders of Andurien would probably fight in the Andurien Corps containing the Defenders of Andurien Battlemech Division, an independent Defenders of Andurien Battlemech Brigade, 2 Armored Divisions, and 3 Infantry Divisions.

The following forces fall under the direct control of the LCCC:
Free World Guards (6 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th
Atrean Dragoons (14 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th
Marik Militia (28 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th

The Free Worlds League has the following provincial forces:
Marik Guard (1+ battlemech regiments, total strength unknown)
Fusiliers of Oriente (5 battlemech regiments) – Ducal Guard, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th
Oriente Hussars (11 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th
Regulan Hussars (9 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th
Defenders of Andurien (6 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th
Orloff Grenadiers (5 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th
Stewart Dragoons (5 battlemech regiments) – Home Guard, Juggernaut, three unknown
Protectorate Guard (2 battlemech regiments – formed during war as the provincial forces of the newly formed Protectorate) Iron, Steel
Langendorf Lancers (private army of Calloway VI)
Sirian Lancers (3 battlemech regiments) – 1st, 2nd, 3rd – the Sirian Lancers were originally part of the SLDF but joined the independent nation of the Sirian Concordance (Sirius, Procyon, Graham IV, and Pollux).  The Sirian Concordance joined during the war as a member province.

The other provinces that existed at the time of the First Succession War and would definitely have battlemech forces:
Duchy of Kalidasa (a major province of the League – original sourcebook)
Amity Province
Duchy of Graham-Marik
Duchy of Tamarind
Abbey District
Rim Commonality
Duchy of Gibson
Regulan Free States

The problem with figuring out the size of the Free Worlds League is that the League has been politically shattered due to the Succession Wars.  The League was originally composed of around twenty multi-world provinces, independent worlds (mostly broken off from the Duchy of Regulus), and the Duchy of New Assam.  Most of the provinces have completely dissolved away.  The remaining provinces like the Duchy of Tamarind and the Duchy of Graham-Marik no longer have the ability to finance battlemech forces.  Taking the average of 4 to 5 battlemech regiments per province, the FWLM should have an additional 56 to 70 battlemech regiments.

Known warship classes of the Free Worlds League
Atreus Class Battleship
Unknown class Battle Cruiser
Aegis class Cruiser
Baron Class Destroyer
Unknown class Destroyer
Vigilant Class Corvette

The size of SLDF forces recruited by the Free Worlds League has essentially remained unchanged.  The only addition to the SLDF regiments was a heavy tank regiment and an aerospace regiment.  For some unknown reason, the Sirian Lancers were not counted in the Star League SB.  The Free Worlds League was stated with the following:
288th Hussar Regiment
802nd Independent Aerospace Wing
346th Heavy Tank Regiment
3rd Regimental Combat Team
   21st Striker Regiment (Joined June, 2798) (Eridani Light Horse)
   71st Light Horse Regiment (Joined June, 2798) (Eridani Light Horse)
   151st Light Horse Regiment (Joined June, 2798) (Eridani Light Horse)
Edom’s Bandits
Smithson’s Chinese Bandits
1st Smithson’s Chinese Bandits
2nd Smithson’s Chinese Bandits
Smithson’s Chinese Bandits Aerospace Regiment
Gladstone’s Gladiators
Dismal Disinherited (joined immediately at the end of the First Succession War)
   Plague of Locusts
   Crypt Kickers
   Hostile LAMs


bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #11 on: 09 July 2011, 12:26:45 »
The CCAF

The third state that there is information about is the Capellan Confederation. The standard force used for battlemechs by the CCAF was a brigade of three battlemech regiments. Conventional forces would also be formed into three regiment brigades.  Battlemech and conventional brigades would be deployed into fronts containing 2 to 12 brigades. There were originally 129 front-line battlemech regiments.

As clearly stated in the first Capellan sourcebook "In lieu of battlemechs and aerospace fighters, the Homeguard now comprise"; the Homeguard were originally equipped with battlemechs. The original strength and size of the Homeguard is unknown.  It is possible that the Chartered Mercenaries were originally considered part of the Homeguard and was composed of independent battalions raised by the nobility on most of the worlds of the Confederation.  This is probably how the New Hessen Irregulars first started.

Known warship classes of the Capellan Confederation
Du Shi Wang Class Battleship
Aegis Class Cruiser
Baron Class Destroyer
Vigilant Class Corvette

Originally, the mercenary forces consisted of five known SLDF battlemech regiments (1st Tau Ceti, 4th Tau Ceti, 15th Dracon, 10th Heavy Assault, 42nd Striker).   In the Star League SB, it was expanded to a SLDF battlemech division, SLDF infantry regiment, and 6 SLDF battlemech regiments.  The Star League SB only counted the 4th Tau Ceti and 15th Dracon.  The Capellan Confederation has the following revised forces:
360th Battlemech (The Bannockburn) Division
258th Hussar Regiment (M)
4th Tau Ceti Rangers Regiment (M)
15th Dracon Regiment (H)
84th Light Horse Regiment (L)
258th Dragoon Regiment (H)
189th Battle Regiment (M)
3rd French Infantry Regiment
Always Faithful (possibly part of the 360th Battlemech Division)
   Unknown Battlemech Brigade
   2nd Heavy Assault Regiment
   5th Dragoon Regiment
   7th Striker Regiment
10th Heavy Assault and 42nd Striker – (the 10th Heavy Assault is possibly part of the 360th Battlemech Division) would eventually form the 12 Star Guards which expands to 7 regiments by the end of the war
12 Star Guards – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th 12 Star Guards
Northwind Highlanders:  Marion Highlanders, McCormick Fusiliers, Stuart Highlanders; 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Kearny Highlanders (the Northwind Highlanders originally started as a line unit of the CCAF but were changed to mercenaries in the Fourth Succession War Atlases.  However, since the Northwind Highlanders have worked for the Capellan Confederation since its foundation, they might also fall under the line regiment total since they could be considered part of the CCAF like the mercenary Scottish regiments of the Napoleonic era were considered regular regiments of the French, Spanish, and Sicilian armies during this period and the Gurkha regiments of the British Army are considered line regiments even though they are composed of mercenaries recruited from Nepal.

Known Capellan units at the time of the First Succession War:
Capellan Hussars:  Red Lancers, Prefectorate Guard + 3 unknown regiments
Tikonov Commonality:  Blandford’s Grenadiers
Chesterton Commonality:  1st and 2nd Ariana Fusiliers; Ariana Grenadiers; 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Chesterton Voitigeurs; Sung’s Cuirassiers
Duchy of Liao:  Vincent’s Commandos
Sian Commonality:  Ishara’s Grenadiers
Capellan Commonality:  Capellan Cuirassiers, 5th Capellan Chargers, Justine’s Grenadiers
St. Ives Armored Cavalry: 1st and 2nd Lancers, Cheveau Legers
14th Confederation (Blackwind) Lancers – The Confederation Lancers were raised along with the Capellan Reserve Cavalry in 2752 immediately after the passing of the resolution amending Michael’s Cameron’s Military Edict of 2650 which limited the size of the House Forces.  So it would be definite that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th Confederation Lancers existed.  It is possible that around 30 to over 40 of the Capellan front-line Battlemech regiments are Confederation Lancers or Capellan Reserve Cavalry.
Capellan Reserve Cavalry:  1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th (possibly more)
Shadrack’s Shadow Hawks (unknown from which Commonality the unit is raised)
Lefarge Hussars (unknown from which Commonality the unit is raised)


bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #12 on: 09 July 2011, 12:27:22 »
The last two Successor states are where it is very difficult to determine the actual OOB for the First Succession War.

The AFFS

The first difficult one to determine is House Davion and the AFFS.  The AFFS organizes it battlemech forces into SLDF style Regimental Combat Teams with centralized air support like the 3rd Regimental Combat Team (Eridani Light Horse).  The conventional forces of the AFFS were organized into 4 regiment brigades with an aerospace wing.  The AFFS followed no standard formation above the brigade and RCT; instead, the AFFS would assign forces to fulfill the mission and then disperse the units once the mission is completed.  Armies would be named after the world they are fighting on, the combat region they are in, or the march if it is the main army (like the French Revolutionary Armies or the Union and Confederate armies of the American Civil War).

The AFFS was stated to be the largest army during the First Succession War. The great weak point of the AFFS was the lack of training.  The vast majority of units of the AFFS was assigned to the same worlds for decades and never practiced in planetary maneuvers and assaults.  In addition, the majority of the AFFS was hastily raised militia and noble forces with no practical experience.  The combat regions and even units assigned to the same formations never worked together and refused to cooperate because of inter-unit rivalries.  The Federated Suns was the last Successor state to mobilize before the beginning of the war.  During the initial Draconis invasion, many AFFS units stayed and fought to their destruction on their assigned worlds rather than obey an order for withdraw and initial counterattacks collapsed due to the lack of training.  The Federated Suns was indeed the paper tiger at the beginning of the First Succession War.
The following is known about the regular army:
Davion Guards – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, Light, Heavy, Assault (total strength unknown)
Avalon Hussars – 1st, 2nd, 4th, 11th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 20th, 22nd, 23rd, 33th, 34th, 36th, 38th, 39th, 41st, 42nd, 56th (a total of 26 regiments)
Ceti Hussars – 1st, 2nd, 3rd
Syrtis Fusiliers – 5th, 6th, 8th (total strength unknown, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 7th Syrtis Fusiliers existed)
Deneb Light Cavalry – 4th with 5th, 8th, and 9th being formed during the war.  The four regiments were formed into the 3rd Deneb Light Cavalry Regimental Combat Team.
Crucis Lancers – originally 1st and 2nd Crucis Lancers Regimental Combat Teams with an additional 6 Regimental Combat Teams being formed during the First Succession War.  The 33rd Crucis Lancers was formed to replace the 7th Crucis Lancers which was lost on Kentares (the 7th was kept on the honor rolls; in a bit of irony, the 33rd Crucis Lancers would be renumbered as the 7th Crucis Lancers during Melissa Davion’s reform of the AFFS. Melissa renumbered the 8 surviving Crucis Lancers regiments 1st through 8th as well as assigning them to a specific combat region). 
Crucis Lancers – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, 32nd, 33rd

Originally, the AFFS was organized into five provincial armies with each march deploying its own separate army.  In the aftermath of the Civil War, units of the five provincial armies that sided with Alexander Davion were placed under the direct control of the Regular Army.  Neither the name nor the size is given for the three provincial forces that formed the Terran, Draconis, or Periphery Marches.  So there have to be some units named after Robinson (capital for the Terran March), Tancredi (capital for the Draconis March), and Filtvelt (capital for the Periphery March).  In addition, there was a Federated Suns Light Cavalry that no longer exists (size of force unknown).  The forces that originally formed the three march armies and the Light Cavalry would also be like the Avalon Hussars in not being sequentially numbered because the units which sided against Alexander Davion would have been stricken from the rolls.
Robinson? – Unknown strength
Tancredi? – Unknown strength
Filtvelt? – Unknown strength
Federated Suns Light Cavalry – Unknown Strength

The three marches were originally divided into Combat Regions with the Capellan and Draconis marches being divided into six Combat Regions and the Crucis March into ten regions.  As a result of the First Succession War, the Capellan and Draconis Marches were reorganized into PDZs.  It appears that each Combat Region raised a volunteer force of four battlemech regiments organized into a regimental combat team.  The following is known about the March Militias:
Clovis (Draconis) Combat Region – Clovis Guards
Robinson (Draconis) Combat Region – Robinson Rangers
Syrtis (Capellan) Combat Region – Syrtis Hussars
Avalon (Crucis) Combat Region – Avalon Borderers
Islamabad (Crucis) Combat Region – Messengers of Shiva
In addition, private noble forces were incorporated into the AFFS from the various worlds of the Federated Suns and included in the Combat Regions.  The total number of these noble forces is unknown but the following regiments are known: 
Capellan Dragoons,
Kestrel Grenadiers,
Franklin Gorgons,
12th Vegan Rangers (one regiment)

It also appears that each of the Military Academies in the Federated Suns mobilized battlemech forces for use by the AFFS.  The Sakhara Academy mobilized six mixed-arm regiments for use by the AFFS.  The other academies (New Avalon Military Academy, Albion, Warrior Hall, Battle Academy of Robinson, Point Barrow, and Kilbourne) also raised battlemech forces but the total size of these forces is unknown.  In addition, the total number of military academies that existed in the Federated Suns during the First Succession War is unknown.

Known warship classes of the Federated Suns
Aegis Class Cruiser
New Syrtis Class Fighter Cruiser
Robinson I Class Transport
Robinson II Class Transport
Baron Class Destroyer
Davion II Class Destroyer
Congress Class Frigate
Vigilant Class Corvette

The original mercenary forces for the AFFS consisted of the following:
23rd Heavy Assault
59th Striker
32nd Recon
8th Striker
1894th Light Horse
789th Striker
21st Rim Worlds Regulars
Argyle Lancers (SLDF company)

The AFFS was originally stated to have recruited the smallest number of SLDF and Rim World soldiers of all the Successor states.  The vast majority were used to form the core of the newly formed 1st and 2nd Crucis Lancers Regimental Combat Teams.  The size of the mercenary forces of the AFFS was changed in the Star League Sourcebook to the following:
2004th Battle Regiment
23rd Heavy Assault Regiment
149th Dragoon Regiment
91st Heavy Assault (Armadillos) Regiment
1008th Heavy Assault Regiment
5th Hussar Regiment
1894th Light Horse Regiment
199th Dragoon Regiment
396th Dragoon Regiment
8th Striker Regiment
21st Rim World Regulars Regiment
Argyle Lancers (SLDF company)
Baldwin’s (Black) Crater-Cobras Heavy Brigade
   Black Cobras Regiment
789th Striker
Unknown battlemech regiment
Screaming Eagles (Battlemech brigade and Armored Brigade from the 250th Stalingrad Battlemech Division)
   556th Honor Guard Battlemech Brigade
1st Screaming Eagles
2nd Screaming Eagles
3rd Screaming Eagles
   555th Honor Guard Armored Brigade
      77th Heavy Armored Regiment
      52nd Heavy Armored Regiment
      Unknown Armored Regiment
Lexington Combat Group (possibly started working with the Federated Suns first)
   32nd Reconnaissance Combat Group
   241st Battle Combat Group
   180th Dragoon Combat Group


bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #13 on: 09 July 2011, 12:27:51 »
The DCMS

The last Successor state to be covered is the Draconis Combine.  The Draconis Combine organized their battlemech forces into three battlemech regiment brigades.  The conventional forces of the DCMS are also formed into three regiment brigades.  It is possible that the DCMS deployed it battlemech brigades and conventional brigades into SLDF style battlemech divisions.  Since the original Japanese army never used a corps command but instead went from division to army (the equivalent of a corps) and area army (the equivalent of an army), I am assuming that the DCMS follows the same structure.  The exact composition of the Draconis Combine is virtually impossible to determine because of the existing policy of changing unit designations, not numbering units sequentially, or combining existing units to throw off intelligence efforts by the other Successor States.  Kanrei Theodore Kurita changed this policy by making the regiments of the DCMS be permanent so that the District regiments would have stability.  The following is known about the DCMS (approximately 150 regiments):
Proserpina Hussars (total strength unknown – possibly 4, 6, or 9 regiments since the Proserpina Hussars started off as an armored division)
Rasalhague Regulars (strength unknown)
Dieron Regulars (strength unknown)
Pesht Regulars (strength unknown – more than likely ten regiments.  The Pesht Regulars appear never to have fall under the policy of constant number changing since the District never was directly threatened by a neighboring Successor state.)
Benjamin Regulars (strength unknown)
Galedon Regulars (strength unknown)
Arkab Legion – 2nd, 4th, 6th

The Otomo does not fall within the 150 regiment total of the DCMS since they are personnel bodyguards of the Coordinator.  Likewise, the Sword of Light also might not be counted as part of the total.
Otomo
Sword of Light (5 regiments – 1st Sword of Light, 2nd Sword of Light, 3rd Sword of Light, 4th Sword of Light, 6th Sword of Light)

Sword of Light Brigade – Coordinator Minoru Kurita
Otomo
1st Sword of Light
3rd Sword of Light

Sword of Light Brigade – Warlord Jinjiro Kurita
2nd Sword of Light
4th Sword of Light
6th Sword of Light

It also appears that each of the military academies in the Draconis Combine mobilized battlemech forces that were not counted as part of the total strength of the DCMS.  The Sun Zhang Academy raised 16 battlemech regiments; the An Ting Academy raised 5 battlemech regiments; and possibly the other five military academies for the five districts also raised up cadre forces.  The total number of military academies in the Draconis Combine at the time of the First Succession War is unknown.  The nobility was also allowed to raise battlemech forces that were incorporated into the DCMS (these units are known as Militia).  The Otomo and the Sword of Light Regiments probably do not fall within the total for the regular DCMS forces.
Sun Zhang Academy Cadre – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th
An Ting Legion – 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th

The following force names come from the Succession Wars board game and might have existed during the First Succession War:
Matar Militia
Kessel Militia
Samarkand Militia
Chian Militia

Known warship classes of the Draconis Combine
Samarkand Class Carrier
Samarkand II Class Carrier
Aegis Class Cruiser
Baron Class Destroyer
Vigilant Class Corvette

The following was the original mercenary strength of the DCMS:
Eridani Light Horse
21st Striker
71st Light Horse
151st Light Horse
208th Hussars
52nd Heavy Assault
104th Striker
28th Heavy Horse
13th Republican Light Lancers
Tartar Brigade (Amaris’ Household Guards – becomes Fuchida Fusiliers)
201st Rim World Lancers
Paul Bunyon Regiment
Aten’s Dark Horse Regiment
Daeman’s Destructors

The number of mercenaries was changed to the following:
3rd Regimental Combat Team
   21st Striker Regiment
   71st Light Horse Regiment
   151st Light Horse Regiment
114th Hussar Regiment
28th Light Horse Regiment
52nd Heavy Assault Regiment
104th Striker Regiment
4674th Striker Regiment
294th Hussar Regiment
258th Hussar Regiment
361st Dragoon Regiment
208th Hussar Regiment
963rd Independent Aerospace Wing
13th Rim World Lancers
Tartan Brigade
201st Rim World Lancers (Deserted November, 2789)
Paul Bunyon Regiment
Lone Star Regiment (fusion of the remnants of the 77th Amaris Dragoons, 205th and 331st Royal Battlemech Divisions)
Aten’s Dark Horse Regiment
Daeman’s Destructors
Bad Dream (battlemech battalion formed from a battalion abandoned by the Capellan Confederation)

A last note
The Illyrian Lancers existed during the First Succession War but it is unknown which of the Successor States that they fought for.  The first mention of a Successor State in which they served is the Capellan Confederation at the beginning of the Third Succession War.  The Illyrian Lancers were originally formed into a heavily reinforced Battlemech Division following the SLDF organization compromising 3 battlemech brigades, an armored brigade, a mechanized infantry brigade, an artillery brigade (regiment), and an aerospace brigade.  The 1st Illyrian Lancers and 7th Illyrian Lancers were lost in the Liberation of Terra while they fought alongside General Kerensky and the SLDF.
Illyrian Lancers – 59th Striker, 4th Illyrian Lancers, 9th Illyrian Lancers, 21st Illyrian Lancers, plus three unknown regiments.

One quick note about equipment
The targeting computers that are described in Maximum Tech were originally supposed to be Level-Two equipment.  FASA dropped the idea after testing it at a couple of tournaments because the systems would even out the odds between the Clans and the Inner Sphere forces.  FASA originally planned the following:
Targeting systems available to all Successor and Territorial states (from Reunification War forward)
Short Range Targeting
Long Range Targeting
Anti-Air Targeting
Multi- Targeting
First Succession War era (just passed down from the SLDF to the Member states)
Variable Targeting
Multi-Targeting II

Gracus

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #14 on: 09 July 2011, 13:56:13 »
The Reunification War sourcebook has details on some of the forces as well.
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

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Ruger

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #15 on: 09 July 2011, 14:40:43 »
Known warship classes of the Federated Suns
Aegis Class Cruiser
New Syrtis Class Fighter Cruiser
Robinson I Class Transport
Robinson II Class Transport
Baron Class Destroyer
Davion II Class Destroyer
Congress Class Frigate
Vigilant Class Corvette

Thanks to Reunification War, we know the FedSuns also used the Vincent Mk39-class corvette...

Ruger
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DarthRads

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #16 on: 09 July 2011, 18:48:36 »
Provincial forces, militias, call them what you will.

The SW was supposed to be so devastating, I'm trying to come up with a way to reconcile the significant, but not devestating, losses with the fluff.

Interestingly, the CCAF is about 1/3rd its original Front Line size come 3025...

A purely 1/2 the SLDF in each realm does not allow much room for the fluffed 'massive buildup'...an average of 60 Line mech regiments does, however.

I'd probably count mercs as seperate from Line forces in the early days, steadily bexoming more important as time goes by...

Light Brigade

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #17 on: 31 October 2012, 18:42:05 »
The LCAF
The Lyran Commonwealth Armed Forces is the one house force that we have the most information about.  The LCAF organizes its battlemech forces into combat teams which are loosely based upon the SLDF line brigades.  A combat team would comprise a battlemech regiment, three conventional regiments, and an aerospace wing.  The LCAF also organizes its conventional forces into mixed-arm combat teams of four conventional regiments and an aerospace wing.  The LCAF follows the SLDF organization with three Combat Teams to a division, three divisions plus conventional forces to a corps, and three corps to an army.

The LCAF is stated to have a total strength of 122 battlemech regiments.  There are three things to remember about this number.  The first is that all of the Lyran mercenary units are included in this total.  The second is that the Tamar Tigers (former 1st Tamar Hussars) are counted as honorary members of the LCAF and fall into this total.  And the final thing to remember is that the provincial forces are not counted as part of the LCAF.
[...]

Excuse me, but on what information are your listings based on?
The SB:HS lists the strength of the LCAF at 122 regiments (including SLDF and RWR units, p. 51, Terms of Exhaustion) after the fall of the Star League, and at 110 regiments after the 1st SW. However, I don't see any source that lists the strengths of the individual brigades prior the 1st SW. As far as I can see, you're just counting the regiments to the highest known regimental designation. However, the designations are not the necessary consecutively numbered. For example, the 30th Lyran Guards are according to the SB:HS basically the reformed 2nd Lyran Guards, which suffered heavy losses during the Kurita invasion of Port Moseby during the 1st Succession War. According to your thesis, the 30th Guards existed prior the 1st Succession War, though.
However, I am aware that the FM:LA contemplates, that the Lyran Guards brigade fielded roughly 60 regiments at its peak, indeed. This number very likely includes conventional regiments as well, though. For example, the SB:HD states the strength of the Davion Guards at 58 regiments in 3025, but only 8 of them are 'Mech regiments. Consequently, the Lyran Guards' strength was most likely at its peak prior the Clan invasion, when most of its regiments were upgraded to RCT status.
Otherwise, roughly two thirds of the units the LCAF lost during the Succession Wars (i.e. the LCAF had 122 'Mech regiments prior the 1st SW and just short 60 'Mech regiments, 11 of which are Lyran Guards units, after the 3rd SW) would be Lyran Guards units, which is quite unlikely. I just asked the line developers for clarification, though.
In addition, I am not aware of any source, that declares that the Donegal Guards are not a part of the LCAF. Even the FM:LA states, that the Donegal Guards are a "mainstay of the Lyran military". In the case of the Skye Rangers, only one regiment is noted as House troops: the 17th regiment. However, all Skye Rangers regiments are still listed in the LCAF's TO&E. Consequently, there is absolutely no reason, why any Donegal Guards or even Skye Rangers regiments should not be counted as a part of the LCAF.
Additionaly, I don't know how you evaluate the number of the Tamar Hussars regiments. There is no other regiment than the 1st Tamar Hussars aka the Tamar Tigers mentioned anywhere, and there is absolutely no indication of a total number of roughly 20 Tamar Hussars regiments. On the contrary, the Tamar Jaegers might be regional House troops, since they are not mentioned in the SB:HS TO&E listings.

Btw, it's pretty much the same for the other IS militaries.

And yes, I know that the thread is quite old  ;)
« Last Edit: 31 October 2012, 19:43:17 by Light Brigade »
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bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #18 on: 11 November 2012, 17:25:57 »
Excuse me, but on what information are your listings based on?

Btw, it's pretty much the same for the other IS militaries.

And yes, I know that the thread is quite old  ;)

I am laughing out aloud that this post is still around.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Truthfully, we are going to have to wait until the writers finally publish an order of battle for the Successor States for the First Succession War.

 I quit working on this outline of the 1st Succession War over 8 years ago when the history of the Battletech Universe was being altered with the handbooks. The information being presented here is long out of date and is totally obsolete.  To show you a good example of how obsolete this series of posts about the 1st Succession War actually is; just look at the recently released Era Report: 2750 which has the Robinson Rangers being created after the Reunification War to replace the disbanded forces of the AFFS former Terran March.  This contradicts the write-up of the Robinson Rangers in the Field Manual: Federated Suns and the House Davion SB which stated the Robinson Rangers were created just before the 1st Succession War.

Now to answer your questions in specific order:

The information of all of these posts come specifically from scrapping together bits and pieces from every sourcebook published by FASA, information presented on the House militaries by FASA, and actual posts by the writers of FASA.  However, you must remember several basic facts about FASA which would make the game very understandable.

This is the most important fact.  FASA's flagship game in the 1980s was the Star Trek Role Playing Game followed by Renegade Legion.  When FASA lost the license to produce the Star Trek RPG and Renegade Legion failed; they introduced three new games in the 1990s - ShadowRun, Earthdawn, and Crimson Skies.  FASA only concentrated on Battletech in the very end of the company's existence.  FASA closed its doors in 2000 but continued publishing its remaining finished products in 2001.  If you look at the FASA's product list for Battletech; you are going to see that over 60% of the Battletech products were produced in the last five years of the company's existence.

The second fact is that FASA never intended to write a sourcebook on the First Succession War or on any previous event before the Jihad when they were closing their doors.  So any errors or contradictions that occurred were of no importance to them.  It was a very common occurrence for FASA to make errors, forget to include information, radically alter the history of units, or to eliminate units from the game with no explanation.  There are entire posts on this website of alterations and omissions that were done by FASA.  A very good example of this is the Northwind Highlanders.  In the House Liao Sourcebook, the Northwind Highlanders were Capellan Line Regiments raised from the planets of Kearny and Northwind.  However, the history of the Northwind Highlanders was altered in the Warrior Trilogy series of books to being a mercenary force employed by the Caoellan Confederation.  Another good example is the Amphigean Light Assault Group of the DCMS.  FASA altered the history of the unit from being a corporate security force that was rented to the Draconis Combine to a very non-prestigious force of the DCMS.  There are definitely over a hundred more examples that I demonstrate of FASA’s errors.

Now to answer your specific questions about the LCAF.

1)   The writers at FASA in a post about the LCAF stated that the forces of the Lyran Commonwealth and the Free Worlds League were sequentially numbered.  So this is where the numbering of the regiments come from.  However, you hit a major contradiction with the Lyran Regulars which does not match up with what the writers of FASA stated.  That is why I included in the post that the Lyran Regulars are not sequentially numbered.  This is an example of one of FASA’s contradictions.  The same thing occurred with the Skye Rangers which ran sequentially to 21 and then skipped to 25.

2)   In the writeup of the 30th Lyran Guards, the House Steiner SB states “This unit includes elements of the now defunct 2nd Lyran Guards”.  This statement showed that the 30th Guards incorporated the survivors of the 2nd Guards.  The 30th Lyran Guards were not created from the survivors of the 2nd Guards.  Also, the statement reads that the 2nd Guards were recently disbanded (now defunct) so they survived until near the end of the Third Succession War.  Remember, the sourcebooks only highlight the major battles of the Succession Wars, they do not go into detail about every battle so the exact date when the 2nd Guards bought the farm was not given.

3)   In the House Steiner SB, the House Troops Liason paragraph specifically states that “Commonwealth Law states that all private forces are free and inpedendent of the LCAF” so the provincial forces would not be included in total number of regiments of the LCAF in the First Succession War since they are not part of the LCAF.  An apt comparison can be made with the Free Worlds League.  The order of battle in the House Marik SB lists all of the Battlemech regiments deployed in the League in 3025.  However, the LCCC only directly controlled the Free Worlds Guard, Atrean Dragoons, Atrean Hussars, Marik Militia, and the mercenaries.  All of the other battlemech forces listed are provincial forces under the control of the various provinces of the League.   The leaders of the provinces who control the  battlemech forces only loan these units to the LCCC when the leaders feel like doing so.

4)   The provincial forces of House Steiner was listed in a very old online writeup by FASA about the Lyran military.  So the Donegal Guards, Skye Rangers, Tamar Jagers, and Tamar Hussars fall into the provincial category.  Even the field manual states that the Donegal Guards and the Skye Rangers were originally the independent (provincial forces) of Donegal and Skye that predated the creation of the Lyran Commonwealth.  Of course, the Donegal Guards would become the mainstay of the Lyran Military since the former Protectorate of Donegal was directly ruled by the Steiner family.  Their own personal household troops are definitely going to play a major role in the defense of the Commonwealth.  And several sourcebooks list the Skye Rangers as household troops.  The reason that the 17th Skye Rangers was emphasized in the House Steiner SB was because under the Household Agreement of 2883, half of the ‘mechwarriors of the regiment had to be recruited from the planet Summer.

5)   The writers at FASA indicated that there were several Tamar Hussar regiments.  The idea of one Tamar Hussar regiment is a recent introduction into the game (unfortunately I can’t recall the specific sourcebook).  On page 45 of the House Steiner SB, it states that the Tamar Tigers (Hussars) were the first of the private troops to receive battlemechs. This indicates that there was more than one regiment.  The book on page 66 which describes the creation of the Stealthy Tigers also states the Duke of Tamar created the unit to evade the restrictions on his private battlemech regiments.  The total number of Tamar Hussar regiments is an estimate on my part since Donegal had 20 regiments and Skye had 22 regiments.

6)   The Tamar Jagers come from FASA Camos and Specs Sourcebook and the Succession Wars BoardgameCamos and Specs listed 4 regiments for the Jagers.  Obviously these four regiments did not survive past the Third Succession War.  The lack of inclusion in the House Steiner SB is just another common error of FASA.

As you can see from this long post that the research involved to write up all of this now obsolete information occurred off and on over a period of years and also included trying to make sense of all the contradictions that occurred.  As you have now also noticed, consistency was never of virtue of FASA so the determination of the order of battle for the First Succession War was a very long and tiresome process of going through over a hundred products as well as going through a couple thousand post of the old FASA website.

Jaim Magnus

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #19 on: 11 November 2012, 18:28:28 »
2765 Field Reports for the Houses are coming.

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Hellraiser

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #20 on: 11 November 2012, 19:03:06 »
The Original SLDF deployed five basic types of forces: line regiments, independent regiments, armored regiments, Regimental Combat Teams (RCT), and the Rapid Deployment Mixed Arm Forces (RDMAF). 
 
Where are you getting this info ?

Quote
   There are four types of line brigades: 
Where are you getting these Brigade types ?

Quote
Regimental Combat Teams – (20 battlemech regiments)
 The RCT is composed of four independent regiments (2 Striker and 2 Light Horse) under one single commander with a unified transportation and support service.  Each of the 5 RCTs were specifically assigned to a section of the League.   
Where did you get that all RCTs are 2 Striker & 2 Light Horse ?

Quote
You can also see how the organization of the Clan clusters and galaxies originated from.
Where do you see Clan organization ?

Is this just your fanon ?   Where are all these specific unit counts from ?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #21 on: 12 November 2012, 01:32:12 »
 
Where are you getting this info ?
Where are you getting these Brigade types ?
Where did you get that all RCTs are 2 Striker & 2 Light Horse ?
Where do you see Clan organization ?

Is this just your fanon ?   Where are all these specific unit counts from ?

FYI: The First Succession War post was started in December 1993.  That is how old and obsolete this post actually is.  I just kept on updating it about one every two years until I finally gave up on it about 8 years ago. 

The information about the SLDF was completely changed by FASA with the Star League sourcebook along with the revised size of the Rim Worlds Army.  FASA considered both versions of the SLDF to be cannon with the SLDF being revised under Jonathan Cameron in the massive buildup of the SLDF.  This has been altered by the recent publication of the Reunification War SB which has the SLDF converting to the divisional organization (Battlemech, Mechanized Infantry, Jump Infantry, and Infantry) presented in the SLDF SB and the new SLDF Handbook.  Unfortunately, FASA never revised the number of battlemech regiments deployed by any of the Successor states and the other Periphery nations.

Where are you getting this info ?

The information about the original version of the SLDF comes from the original Periphery sourcebook which has a page detailing the organization of the line regiments and line brigades of the SLDF. Additional information came from articles published by FASA and FASA on-line posts.  In addition, more information about the organization and size of the SLDF comes from the five house sourcebooks (especially House Davion), Mercenary Handbook (containing the history and organization of the 3rd Eridani Light Horse Regimental Combat Team), "Mechwarrior Sourcebook, and the original history published in the second edition of Battletech.

Where are you getting these Brigade types ?

The exact breakdown of the brigade types comes from the Periphery sourcebook.  The writing of it is confusing at first because they are describing regiments unitl you come to the end of the page where the writers state that this is the standard organization of the four types of line brigades used by the SLDF.

Here is the important part.  The organization of the four line brigade types (Regular, Heavy Assault, Horse, and Light Horse) are canon.  These four types of brigades exist in the newly published Reunification War Sourcebook.  Unfortunately, the Reunification War sourcebook does not go into as much detail as the original Periphery sourcebook in the actual organization of the SLDF line brigades.  So if you are playing a game based upon the Reunification War, the organization of the SLDF line regiments are valid for the beginning of the Reunification War.

The Rapid Deployment Mixed Arm Force (RDMAF) comes from the House Davion sourcebook.  The SLDF originally has four RDMAFs based on Deneb Kaitos.  The RDMAF forces were officially name the Deneb Light Cavalry.  Three of these forces left with General Kerensky and the 4th Deneb Light Cavalry stayed behind to join the Federated Suns.  This is also cannon.

The organization of the independent regiments come from the Mercenary Handbook and the original Periphery sourcebook.  The organization of the Heavy Cavalry came from a post by the writers at FASA.  The organization was continued in the revised version of the SLDF published in the Star League SB (the independent Dragoon regiments).

The armored divisions come from the original Periphery sourcebook.  Even the recently published SLDF Handbook states that each of the corps listed in the order of battle has a minimum of an armored division and a couple of independent armored brigades that do not show up in the order of battle.

Where did you get that all RCTs are 2 Striker & 2 Light Horse ?

The Mercenary Handbook and the House Steiner SB.  The original 5 RCTs are described as being organized with 2 Striker and 2 Light Horse regiments.

Where do you see Clan organization ?

Unlike the House forces which made distinctions between unit types, the SLDF mixed battlemechs, aerospace fighters, armor, infantry, and artillery at the company and battalion level.  So a Regular battalion might deploy a company of two medium battlemech lances, a heavy armor lance, and an aerospace lance; the second company might deploy two mechanized infantry platoons and a medium battlemech lance, and the third company might deploy two armored lances, a mechanized infantry platoon, and an attached artillery lance.  As you can see, the intermixing of various combinations of armor. artillery, aerospace fighters, battlemechs, and infantry is very similiar to the descendents of the SLDF which will form the Clans.

Is this just your fanon ?   

Not a single one of these posts is fanon.  It comes from scrapping through every sourcebook and FASA writer post.

Where are all these specific unit counts from ?

In the original Periphery SB, the description of the SLDF states that the original 10 corps of the SLDF were expanded into 10 armies of three corps each.  From the write up of the brigades, the Regular and Horse brigades have the equivalent of a battlemech regiment, the Heavy Assault brigades have the equivalent of a reinforced regiment (4 battalions), and the Light Horse brigade of a reinforced battalion.  So a corp of the original SLDF would have the equivalent of 7 to 9 battlemech regiments.  In addition. three to five independent battlemech regiments would be assigned to each corp (this is hinted at in the house books and the Periphery SB).

In addition. the original Periphery sourcebook has the Rim Worlds army expanding from 30 battlemech regiments to nearly 4 times that number (roughly 110 to 118 battlemech regiments) just before the coup and the destruction of the Star League.  All of the old sourcebooks in the 1980s stated that the SLDF outnumbered the Rim Worlds Army in battlemech forces by over 3 to 1 after the losses of the SLDF in the Periphery Uprising.  By scrapping together the info did I come with the total for approximate size of the SLDF.

It is cannon that the CCAF had 129 frontline battlemech regiments at the start of the First Succession War.  It is also cannon that General Kerensky ended the Terran Liberation campaign with 36 battlemech divisions. 82 infantry type divisions, and 98 independent regiments.  How can the CCAF take on General Kerensky and defend the border against the AFFS and the FWLM?

It is impossible because FASA never revised the number of frontline regiments to match the revised version of the SKDF in the Star League SB.

However if you go with the original version of the SLDF and guesstimate that General Kerensky only had the equivalent of 150 to 200 battlemech regiments that survived the fighting, General Kerensky going into exile makes perfect sense because if he stayed, more SLDF units would have defected to their homelands and the remainder of the SLDF would have lacked the strength to survive 5 invasions from the surrounding Successor states.

Light Brigade

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #22 on: 12 November 2012, 03:41:18 »
I am laughing out aloud that this post is still around.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Truthfully, we are going to have to wait until the writers finally publish an order of battle for the Successor States for the First Succession War.

Basically, I revived it  ;)

Now to answer your specific questions about the LCAF.

1)   The writers at FASA in a post about the LCAF stated that the forces of the Lyran Commonwealth and the Free Worlds League were sequentially numbered.  So this is where the numbering of the regiments come from.  However, you hit a major contradiction with the Lyran Regulars which does not match up with what the writers of FASA stated.  That is why I included in the post that the Lyran Regulars are not sequentially numbered.  This is an example of one of FASA’s contradictions.  The same thing occurred with the Skye Rangers which ran sequentially to 21 and then skipped to 25.

2)   In the writeup of the 30th Lyran Guards, the House Steiner SB states “This unit includes elements of the now defunct 2nd Lyran Guards”.  This statement showed that the 30th Guards incorporated the survivors of the 2nd Guards.  The 30th Lyran Guards were not created from the survivors of the 2nd Guards.

Excuse me, but that's a rather generous interpretation of the quote. In addition, the SB:HS lists only the LCAF's 'Mech forces. However, even if the numbering is conclusive, it might also include numerous tank regiments. I just asked the line developers for clarification, but they haven't decided that matter yet. Second, even a consecutive numbering almost certainly includes regiments from the Age of War, which might have been destroyed prior the 1st SW.
Thus, I still consider your thesis sketchy at best.

3)   In the House Steiner SB, the House Troops Liason paragraph specifically states that “Commonwealth Law states that all private forces are free and inpedendent of the LCAF” so the provincial forces would not be included in total number of regiments of the LCAF in the First Succession War since they are not part of the LCAF.  An apt comparison can be made with the Free Worlds League.  The order of battle in the House Marik SB lists all of the Battlemech regiments deployed in the League in 3025.  However, the LCCC only directly controlled the Free Worlds Guard, Atrean Dragoons, Atrean Hussars, Marik Militia, and the mercenaries.  All of the other battlemech forces listed are provincial forces under the control of the various provinces of the League.   The leaders of the provinces who control the  battlemech forces only loan these units to the LCCC when the leaders feel like doing so.

4)   The provincial forces of House Steiner was listed in a very old online writeup by FASA about the Lyran military.  So the Donegal Guards, Skye Rangers, Tamar Jagers, and Tamar Hussars fall into the provincial category.  Even the field manual states that the Donegal Guards and the Skye Rangers were originally the independent (provincial forces) of Donegal and Skye that predated the creation of the Lyran Commonwealth.  Of course, the Donegal Guards would become the mainstay of the Lyran Military since the former Protectorate of Donegal was directly ruled by the Steiner family.  Their own personal household troops are definitely going to play a major role in the defense of the Commonwealth.  And several sourcebooks list the Skye Rangers as household troops.  The reason that the 17th Skye Rangers was emphasized in the House Steiner SB was because under the Household Agreement of 2883, half of the ‘mechwarriors of the regiment had to be recruited from the planet Summer.

Yes, but the Donegal Guards, and the Skye Rangers are part of the LCAF. They're not privately owned, but the former militaries of the Isle of Skye and the Protectorate of Donegal. They were integrated into the LCAF, when the LyrCom was formed. Basically, you're equalizing the FWL's provinces with the grounding states of the LyrCom. However, that's wrong, the LyrCom isn't the FWL, and the FWLM just isn't the LCAF. The FWLM's provincial forces are explicit mentioned to have a rather independent status, comparable to the most elite line regiments, because provincional forces might be pulled from any of the FWLM's actions by the individual provinces.
That just isn't the case in the LCAF, though.
In addition, the Tamar Jaegers might be a example for a privatly owned 'Mech unit in Lyran space, but even the Tamar Tigers are -or have been- a part of the LCAF.
The 17th Rangers are also explicitly mentioned as Aldo Lestrade's House troops in two different sources. The rest of the Skye Rangers aren't House troops, but troops recruited from basically one province. On the contrary, the Arcturan Guards might be also considered "House troops" corresponding to your thesis. However, that's also not the case.

5)   The writers at FASA indicated that there were several Tamar Hussar regiments.  The idea of one Tamar Hussar regiment is a recent introduction into the game (unfortunately I can’t recall the specific sourcebook).  On page 45 of the House Steiner SB, it states that the Tamar Tigers (Hussars) were the first of the private troops to receive battlemechs. This indicates that there was more than one regiment.  The book on page 66 which describes the creation of the Stealthy Tigers also states the Duke of Tamar created the unit to evade the restrictions on his private battlemech regiments.  The total number of Tamar Hussar regiments is an estimate on my part since Donegal had 20 regiments and Skye had 22 regiments.

Excuse me, but that's ridiculous, especially since there is not any single source, that states that the Skye Rangers were up to 20 'Mech regiments prior the 1st SW.

6)   The Tamar Jagers come from FASA Camos and Specs Sourcebook and the Succession Wars BoardgameCamos and Specs listed 4 regiments for the Jagers.  Obviously these four regiments did not survive past the Third Succession War.  The lack of inclusion in the House Steiner SB is just another common error of FASA.

Basically, that's wrong, because the LCAF's TO&E doesn't include private 'Mech regiments. For instance, the Defiance Self Protection Force is also not listed in the tables, because it's technically not a part of the LCAF. That might be the reason, why the Tamar Jaegers are not listed in the SB:HS, too. Actually, they are also not mentioned as a part of the LCAF in camospecs booklet. In fact, the booklet states, that the Tamar Jaegers were formed by the Duke of Tamar, and not the LCAF.

As you can see from this long post that the research involved to write up all of this now obsolete information occurred off and on over a period of years and also included trying to make sense of all the contradictions that occurred.  As you have now also noticed, consistency was never of virtue of FASA so the determination of the order of battle for the First Succession War was a very long and tiresome process of going through over a hundred products as well as going through a couple thousand post of the old FASA website.

Indeed, but almost all of your statement is sketchy at best. It's pretty much the same for every single one of your descritions of the other militaries.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2012, 05:26:19 by Light Brigade »
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Øystein

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #23 on: 12 November 2012, 04:05:38 »
To show you a good example of how obsolete this series of posts about the 1st Succession War actually is; just look at the recently released Era Report: 2750 which has the Robinson Rangers being created after the Reunification War to replace the disbanded forces of the AFFS former Terran March.  This contradicts the write-up of the Robinson Rangers in the Field Manual: Federated Suns and the House Davion SB which stated the Robinson Rangers were created just before the 1st Succession War.

And it is an error, the Robinson Rangers were not created until the liberation of the Robinson in the Third Succession War. We generally don't try to contradict old sources, but sometimes mistakes do creep in. It should have been Robinson Chevaliers.

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Hellraiser

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #24 on: 12 November 2012, 20:38:39 »
The information about the original version of the SLDF comes from the original Periphery sourcebook which has a page detailing the organization of the line regiments and line brigades of the SLDF.

The organization of the independent regiments come from the Mercenary Handbook and the original Periphery sourcebook. 

The Mercenary Handbook and the House Steiner SB.  The original 5 RCTs are described as being organized with 2 Striker and 2 Light Horse regiments. 

Okay, I gotta pull out my old Periphery & Merc books and read them again, some of this stuff I totally don't remember.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

bigmac

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #25 on: 14 November 2012, 21:27:20 »
Basically, I revived it  ;)

Indeed, but almost all of your statement is sketchy at best. It's pretty much the same for every single one of your descritions of the other militaries.

Why are you getting so fired up about these obsolete posts? 

These posts are very obsolete and irrelevant.  Your questions about the order of battle are going to br answered in part next year with the publications of the Field Reports for all of the House militaries so you are going to have a baseline to create an order of battle for the First Succession War.

Honestly, you are arguing about what the writers at FASA published about the Battletech Universe in 1985 and 1986.  That is how long ago it has been since the original sourcebooks came out.  The information that expanded upon what was shown in the sourcebooks came out through articles writen in gaming magazines by FASA that have long since gone out of business and posts written by the writers of FASA that have long ago quit working on the battletech game.  The universe has been completely altered since 1985.  That is why the Handbooks were published to bring the history of battletech universe up to date with the present day. The same thing will occur with the publication of the Field Manuals which will highlight the history and organization of the House militaries before the First Succession War.

Unfortunately, everyone is going to have to wait until the end of next year before all the information is released on the House militaries.

Light Brigade

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #26 on: 15 November 2012, 03:52:17 »
Why are you getting so fired up about these obsolete posts? 

These posts are very obsolete and irrelevant.  Your questions about the order of battle are going to br answered in part next year with the publications of the Field Reports for all of the House militaries so you are going to have a baseline to create an order of battle for the First Succession War.

Honestly, you are arguing about what the writers at FASA published about the Battletech Universe in 1985 and 1986.  That is how long ago it has been since the original sourcebooks came out.  The information that expanded upon what was shown in the sourcebooks came out through articles writen in gaming magazines by FASA that have long since gone out of business and posts written by the writers of FASA that have long ago quit working on the battletech game.  The universe has been completely altered since 1985.  That is why the Handbooks were published to bring the history of battletech universe up to date with the present day. The same thing will occur with the publication of the Field Manuals which will highlight the history and organization of the House militaries before the First Succession War.

Unfortunately, everyone is going to have to wait until the end of next year before all the information is released on the House militaries.

Hey, I am not fired up, nor did I mean to offend you. I am sorry, if I did. I was wondering, how you estimated the strength of the House militaries, and if you have any sources to back your thesis up, though. basically, your posts have been obsolete since you wrote them, since most of them is based on solely on assumptions. That's what I wanted to know.
"Invade Skye? Forcing Lord Kurita to grovel at our feet would be less dangerous than ordering us to invade Skye!"
Kurita officer upon hearing his unit's assignment.

"If you enjoy the irony of zooming across the universe in a JumpShip, only to be forced to ride a jackass six klicks through a downpour, then man, you've got it made in these successor states."
From the comedy holoseries M.P.'s Jump Circus.

St.George

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #27 on: 15 November 2012, 04:36:49 »
I thought Historical:Liberation terra summed it up quite well and waiting to see Vol2.Doesnt make cents' that old info would be concidered over up-dated info,and fighting over it makes all look foolish.Most of the info is there(right down to their navys)also Pher' nations too.  ;D I understand not everyone has a copy,but the # havnt changed much.
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Moonsword

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #28 on: 15 November 2012, 13:30:56 »
Ladies and gentlemen, it's getting a little too heated in here.  Please settle down, mind Rules 1 and 3, and avoid being overly confrontational or taking shots at each other instead of confronting opinions.

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DarthRads

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Re: PRE SW House Militaries
« Reply #29 on: 15 November 2012, 19:10:23 »
Gee...didn't think anyone would comment on this old thread...especially since I did another one post LibTerra1 that extrapolated based on the numbers and fluff given there...curious...