Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT  (Read 55297 times)

Moonsword

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Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« on: 18 July 2011, 07:21:15 »
Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT

Some tanks are small, fragile, weakly armed things, ill-suited for the combat usage of Real Men like Thomas Hogarth or Caesar Steiner.  Aware that as a nation of Real Men, they needed another Real Man's Tank for open field combat that wasn't castrated differently reproductively abled by anti-missile systems, the Lyran quartermasters submitted a range of requirements to Defiance Industries as it rebuilt; the fact that they bear a suspicious similarity to a Challenger variant is the sort of thing a Real Man wouldn't concern himself with.  Looking upon Defiance's work and pronouncing it good, the LAAF named it Gürteltier for a Real Man's Roadkill, the noble armadillo, an animal of thick shells that still somehow manages to get itself turned into street pizza all the time in Florida.  Most frequently assigned to Real Men in the Royal and Lyran Guards units, it is not given unto the poorly-funded and fumble-fingered men in the militia and has proven itself in combat with the Wolves.  Sales have been made to the Republic of the Sphere and the Federated Suns, also nations of Real Men thanks to their ties to the glorious Lyran Alliance Commonwealth.

Because this is supposed to be an assault tank, you already know it's going to be big, and Defiance didn't bother doing anything but going straight for the gold with a 100 ton tracked chassis.  The power plant is the same Vlar 300 XL we've seen recently on the Moltke and on classic Real Man's 'Mechs like the Devastator, the Thunder Hawk, and the Atlas.  It might have even saved them some retooling costs since it was probably the same one the Blakists were using in the Thunderbolt-armed Demolisher IIs.  The armor is absolutely staggering, 19 tons of StarSlab/4 heavy ferro-fibrous arranged 109/75/50/67, the sort of thing you test by dropping a Crockett nearby to see what breaks.  CASE was included, too, because a Real Man should not be troubled by minor trifles like ammunition explosions.  The firepower isn't quite as overwhelming as the armor levels - it resembles something those of us who aren't Real Men would call sane - but it's definitely making an impression.  The main guns are an ER PPC and a Gauss rifle with a generous 24 shots, backstopped by an MML 7 with its own three tons of ammunition.  The sides and stern have machine guns fed by a half-ton of ammo to clear away those annoying crowds that always show up when Real Men pull up to the curb at the flip of a switch.  (Hoses to clean the mess up not included.)  The reason all of that firepower looks a bit light?  There's a targeting computer.  Yes, a targeting computer for a Gauss rifle and an ER PPC.  Real Men don't miss, and they really don't miss with a C3 slave.  After all of that, the Guardian ECM suite is almost blasé.

But Real Men know that a C3 slave isn't worth much by itself and the masters to control them must also be mounted in a Real Man's Tank if they're to survive in a Real Man's War.  So they sent the pencil-necks back to the drawing board until they built the next model.  The only changes are the removal of the Gauss rifle for an LB 10-X, upgrading the C3 slave to a master computer, with some additional savings from the targeting computer and turret assemblies getting lighter invested into a forward-mounted machine gun and Artemis IV for the MMLs.

Unmentioned in the list of variants in TRO3085 (probably due to a desire not to reduce the sanity of readers, a petty concern this author does not share) was the Rosa Gürteltierfee, the personal sports car of Thomas Hogarth.  Lesser men were not meant to know the stats of a Real Man's Sports Car and Herb in his wisdom has not chosen to release them.

Once you've paid your Real Man's Bill for your new Real Man's Tanks, you need to use them like a Real Man.  Anyone with track-killing weapons - LB-Xs, SB Gauss, SRMs, and other little joys - should be introduced to the business end of the Poland Main Model A on the turret posthaste.  Even so, with the shell these things are wearing, getting critted out is a larger problem than actual unit destruction, so move aggressively into commanding fire positions and rely on the long range and C3 network to give you the numbers you need to prove why Real Men are so dangerous.  Then pick your target, beat it to the ground, and repeat this process until no one's obliging enough to wander into range.  You may want to consider a ton of special munitions for the MMLs depending on the situation; popular choices are going to be Infernos or fragmentation SRMs but Thunders may be useful if you foresee a need to shape a battlefield with a lance's worth of MML fire.

Okay, so you're not a ridiculous parody being ridden into the ground by some hack writer, but you've got to deal with someone who is.  Gürteltiers are unreasonably tough but not difficult to hit or immobilize.  This means that your best bet is to try and disable it quickly in some position where it can't readily contribute fire, then either just leave it there, pound it with indirect fire (including artillery), or come back and finish it after eliminating other problems.  If you don't mind risking the VTOL, a Cavalry with Infernos has a good chance of inflicting the necessary movement hits, while an SB Gauss can keep you at arm's reach and generate enough clusters to do the job.  Minefields may be useful for keeping them out of ideal firing positions while you're getting ready to stop them, although you'll probably need Thunders to get the necessary fast response if you're not able to prepare the battlefield ahead of time.  The armor level is high enough that it's far from unreasonable to suggest orbital bombardment or tacnukes as the proper solution to a company of them clustered together.  One thing not to do is letting a lance them operate in a network and giving said network a clear shot - one mistake like that may not destroy a heavy 'Mech outright but a second time for the same lucky 'Mech is going to be difficult to survive.  Unfortunately, if you're playing with ECCM rules, jamming them is easier said than done (although jamming a detached spotter is more viable), and the weapons load means they don't have to get that close to have better shots with the main guns than you really want to contemplate.

References: Because typing an umlaut is a little complicated for many people, it's easier to find the Gürteltier's MUL entry with a link.  To date, as far as I can tell, no miniature has been produced.
« Last Edit: 12 December 2011, 17:49:46 by Moonsword »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #1 on: 18 July 2011, 07:38:22 »
The comment about testing the armor with a nuke reminds me of Australian Army Registration Number 169041, a Centurion tank that was subjected to a 9 kiloton atomic bomb test going off 500 yards away; not only did it survive but was later driven away and served with the Australian military for a further 23 years.

A lineage that the Gurt certainly lives up to.

Frankly, I think your best bet is standoff fire with HAGs; take the malus to your range-24 fire and stay the hell out of the TC'ed C3 gauss; if you're stuck with a short-ranged design then you're pretty much hosed.  Plink the things, or draw them out if you can and try to cut them off from their links.  ECM, ECM, ECM ECM ECM.

I also might suggest Narc, if at all possible.  These things can take more damage than practically anything short of a DropShip; if you can slaughter them at range with indirect LRM fire having the round would help.  But frankly, artillery is your best bet.  That, or another Gurt lance; at that point it's more of a fight between Godzilla and Mechagodzilla and it's just time to leave now.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #2 on: 18 July 2011, 07:56:29 »
With armor like that, I think I'd be willing to violate Rule #1 of air-to-ground combat, and strafe a Gürty lance.  You see more than one tank lined up side-by-side, go ahead and expend that light fighter, and pump a cluster of small/medium lasers into the group. If they won't line up, fly like a Real Man(equipped with Real Brains) and strike them individually instead. The guaranteed loss of a light fighter(bonus if you use conventionals instead of ASFs) can be worth it if you have a decent shot at immobilizing multiple Gürteltiers.
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #3 on: 18 July 2011, 08:02:05 »
Yeah, they're not too difficult to immobilize.  That's why I emphasized getting them into their firing positions ASAP.  Once they're in positions where they can play bunker, immobilizing them doesn't matter as much.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #4 on: 18 July 2011, 09:09:01 »
A miniature has been produced actually- it is nothing but a single, slightly rectangular block of raw steel to be dropped onto the table (preferably from high-up for maximum attention-getting), with blue fists painted on it if the user so wishes. Should the Gurteltier be defeated somehow, this miniature should be thrown at the opposing player's car windshield at full velocity.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #5 on: 18 July 2011, 11:38:35 »
Manly Men approves this tank!  ;D
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #6 on: 18 July 2011, 15:15:19 »
A miniature has been produced actually- it is nothing but a single, slightly rectangular block of raw steel to be dropped onto the table (preferably from high-up for maximum attention-getting), with blue fists painted on it if the user so wishes. Should the Gurteltier be defeated somehow, this miniature should be thrown at the opposing player's car windshield at full velocity.

That sounds about right for the design.  They can be defeated - I lost one in a test engagement with a Marik 'Mech lance reinforced by a couple of Ontoses - but actually putting one down required several turns of fire from most of the opposing units even after it was immobilized and everything I could actually reach before the master, the other standard model, and the LRM DI Morgan were disabled was smashed to pieces.  At the end it was those three, immobilized and strung out but still in a network and in mutual support range, and an ON1-M Orion hiding in a corner and whimpering to itself for Mommy to make the bad men go away.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #7 on: 18 July 2011, 15:16:30 »
"I don't always kill Mechs, but when I do... I prefer Gurteltiers.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #8 on: 18 July 2011, 15:33:10 »
  I love this design. It is very clever. I think this is one of the first tanks designed thinking about TW rules. There's always a trick that works against tanks... fire a lot of things against them.. render them immobilized... add more fire from safe range until it explodes. 

  This trick doesn't work very well with this tank. Yes, the first part works. You have a tank inmmobilized. Ok. This tank needs a LOT of fire to die. A LOT. And the part of the safe range? Against a Gauss, an ER PPC with TC and a MML? It is a hard task. There are not many weapons that have the range and the firepower to take it down fast.

  It is very expensive and, in some cases, it can end being a glorified bunker... but it is an advancement, right on top 3 of badass tanks that can eat Battlemechs, with the Challenger and the Alacorn.
 
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #9 on: 18 July 2011, 16:35:38 »
the LAAF named it Gürteltier for a Real Man's Roadkill, the noble armadillo, an animal of thick shells that still somehow manages to get itself turned into street pizza all the time in Florida. 

And thats why it should have been called a Wombat.

Here we have yet another Alacorn wannabe, trying to hide its tryhardiness behind swapping the guns out. At the end of the day I am always going to fear the Gürteltier less than an Alacorn. Where the latter is putting 45 points downrange at 22 hexes, the former is doing 30. There are two types of combat for these tanks. MBT, which will see either tank immobilised and stunned, so more damage sooner is better. Or firesupport, where a small diamond mine of armour means nothing anyway. So, the Gürteltier is an interesting concept, but it runs into some realities of combat.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #10 on: 18 July 2011, 16:49:02 »
A tank that combines an ERPPC, a Targeting computer, C3 capabilities (with bonus points for being able to tie a company together with the same toys!), a variety of missile types, and enough armor to shrug off multiple direct hits  from any weapon in tournament rules adds up to being the closest to pure destructive awesomeness that is allowed by thermo dynamics! [rockon]

Too bad the BV cost is almost as devastating once you factor in C3.
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Ian Sharpe

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #11 on: 18 July 2011, 16:59:28 »
A good reason to risk a VTOL or hover with SRMs is the turret.  Don't just immobilise it, lock its turret and immobilise it, then shift away.  A lance of Warrior or Cavalry VTOLs can do a lot of nasty things to tanks without outright killing them.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #12 on: 18 July 2011, 17:14:20 »
And thats why it should have been called a Wombat.

Here we have yet another Alacorn wannabe, trying to hide its tryhardiness behind swapping the guns out. At the end of the day I am always going to fear the Gürteltier less than an Alacorn. Where the latter is putting 45 points downrange at 22 hexes, the former is doing 30. There are two types of combat for these tanks. MBT, which will see either tank immobilised and stunned, so more damage sooner is better. Or firesupport, where a small diamond mine of armour means nothing anyway. So, the Gürteltier is an interesting concept, but it runs into some realities of combat.

I'm not sure I agree, Jellico. Between the C3 and the targeting computer, you can count on an effective -5 to-hit mod at long range. I'd rather have 30 damage than 45 if I'm getting it at -5 to-hit.


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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #13 on: 18 July 2011, 17:17:16 »
You can count on a -1, which is still not a bad deal.  The rest of it depends on the ECM environment, spotter positioning, and whether or not you've got a master around.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #14 on: 18 July 2011, 17:38:05 »
Manly Men approves this tank!  ;D

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #15 on: 18 July 2011, 17:48:38 »
"I don't always kill Mechs, but when I do... I prefer Gurteltiers.

"Stay Lyran, my friends."

 }:)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #16 on: 18 July 2011, 20:54:15 »


Hans and Franz approve of this manly thread about a manly Teutonic battle tank......

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #17 on: 18 July 2011, 21:04:19 »
A good reason to risk a VTOL or hover with SRMs is the turret.  Don't just immobilise it, lock its turret and immobilise it, then shift away.  A lance of Warrior or Cavalry VTOLs can do a lot of nasty things to tanks without outright killing them.

That is a good point.  Warrior VTOLs can range ahead of your main forces to plink away at the treads of big tanks like this to immobilize them before they can get close enough to threaten you.  Of course, the enemy will likely be trying to use other forces to screen the tanks, but it is still probably a better option than trying to meet them head on (unless you have something like a formation of Clan assault 'Mechs, but that goes without saying).


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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #18 on: 18 July 2011, 21:15:36 »
Hmmm... So the Gürteltier is the Inner Sphere Mars or Heimdall? You know the tanks that just WILL NOT DIE!

(Seriously, I saw a Heimdall take out an entire star of Jade Falcon 'Mechs.)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #19 on: 18 July 2011, 21:24:47 »
Something a lot of people are seemingly forgetting. The Master variant carries a LBX-10. A good weapon for getting rid of those pesky VTOLs the enemy will send after it and it's lancemates to immobilise them. I think that was a really smart move on the part of the designers.

It is one of the few tanks that can contest mechs on the battlefield and come out on top.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #20 on: 18 July 2011, 21:43:20 »
Something a lot of people are seemingly forgetting. The Master variant carries a LBX-10. A good weapon for getting rid of those pesky VTOLs the enemy will send after it and it's lancemates to immobilise them. I think that was a really smart move on the part of the designers.

It is one of the few tanks that can contest mechs on the battlefield and come out on top.

Yes, please turn that turret to fire at my VTOL.  I've had great luck with crits from infernoes on things like Alacorns. 

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #21 on: 18 July 2011, 23:33:44 »
I'm not sure I agree, Jellico. Between the C3 and the targeting computer, you can count on an effective -5 to-hit mod at long range. I'd rather have 30 damage than 45 if I'm getting it at -5 to-hit.

Only if he can get a spotter in range.  That'd be job one when facing these in a C3 net, jam and kill the spotters.  At which point most of the C3 bonus goes up in smoke, since he isn't going to be closing fast with assault tanks.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #22 on: 19 July 2011, 09:39:21 »
The art is what does it for me. I think this is the coolest looking tank I have seen in all of Battletech, if the mini looks even half as good as the TRO pic I want one... or 10.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #23 on: 19 July 2011, 09:43:02 »
If you don't mind risking the VTOL, a Cavalry with Infernos has a good chance of inflicting the necessary movement hits[...]

Hmmm...can infernos inflict movement hits? I seem to recall being officially told "no" quite some time ago when I asked on some iteration or other of the old boards (granted, response quality has IME always been rather hit-or-miss), so I've been going with that since...

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #24 on: 19 July 2011, 09:43:36 »
The art is what does it for me. I think this is the coolest looking tank I have seen in all of Battletech, if the mini looks even half as good as the TRO pic I want one... or 10.

I'd back that. Low-slung, unlike the tall domed looks of the Challenger and Demolisher. A couple of big guns in the turret. Side-mounted MGs (I've always loved the look of that)... it looks MEAN. A 100 ton beast like this SHOULD look mean. The Challenger doesn't. The Demolisher, for all it's fame, looks pretty goofy. Gurteltier? My trueborn butt clenched a little when that tank crested the hill.
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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #25 on: 19 July 2011, 09:52:31 »
The new Challenger Mk. XV art is pretty sexy, though.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #26 on: 19 July 2011, 13:26:24 »
+2 for the Challenger's looks. The 3058 pic may have been unremarkeable, but it made for an awesome-cool miniature, heads and shoulders above most BT tanks.

And now that it's mentioned, I gotta give props to the Challenger's performance over the Gürteltier. I love how Moonsword stresses the Gürteltier's strengths and it certainly makes for the most menacing bunker out there, but in my mind, the Challenger easily remains the best MBT of all time. The Mk. X and Mk. XII are excellent in being very flexible and offering a huge punch - mind you, the Challenger Mk. XV is astonishing, too, when you consider it's a downgrade.

The Gürteltier is too much of a good thing to my mind. It's all armour and no guns (which is an exaggeration considering the accuracy and quality of the few guns it does have). Out of the IS tanks that feature castle-brian-type armour, I would probably prefer the Thunderbolt Demolisher II, despite being a vociferous member of the "T-Bolt dislike" party. As unbalanced those weapons are, at least they award the tank a much more serious total punch.

How do you feel these tanks compare, Moonsword?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #27 on: 19 July 2011, 13:31:53 »
Hmmm...can infernos inflict movement hits? I seem to recall being officially told "no" quite some time ago when I asked on some iteration or other of the old boards (granted, response quality has IME always been rather hit-or-miss), so I've been going with that since...

Nope.

Quote from: Total Warfare, p. 141
Every missile that strikes the target automatically causes a roll on the appropriate column of the appropriate unit’s Critical Hits Table, corresponding to the location hit (see Ground Combat Vehicle Critical Hit Eff ects, p. 193), with the following modifiers to the dice roll result: –2 for Combat Vehicles

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Moonsword

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #28 on: 19 July 2011, 13:51:34 »
How do you feel these tanks compare, Moonsword?

I'm not sure on the Challengers in general, being more familiar with the Mk. XV, so I'll restrict my response to that one.  The XV is, despite being a downgrade in some ways, still a very serious threat to anyone else on the battlefield.  I'm not one of those people who has a lot of problems with the SB Gauss, especially when it has another Gauss rifle right beside it to knock on the door and see if someone's vitals would like to come out and play.  It's also the budget option and compared to the other two, far better prepared to cripple vehicles at a useful distance (before they get into SRM range).

The Thunderbolt Demolisher II has two problems.  I mentioned (okay, mocked) one in passing in the article: AMS.  The other one is the fact that Thunderbolt minimums don't just affect your targeting, they mess with your damage.  The ERMLs and Streak 6 aren't nice but they're something I'm willing to risk.  Challengers and Gurties do not have this problem to anything resembling the same degree and have a bit more range to play with.  On the other hand, the Thunderbolt Demolishers lay down larger individual hits and have the unique option of doing so indirectly, so it's not to be casually discounted.

Gurties have C3 and accuracy at their beck and call, so what firepower they have tends to be more accurate, and that firepower really isn't bad, it's just lighter.  It's also not going away quickly.  Unlike the other two, they can kill infantry decently.  They're very good team players.  Just to make sure your day is complete, I'm sure either the Republic or the FedSuns are sticking them into networks with Mk XI and XII Challengers.  The Lyrans can add in DI Morgans, too - the LRM model is not something you want throwing highly accurate fire your way and a Gurtie, pushed out as the lance's forward member, is the kind of spotter that is a serious problem to dispose of,  giving targeting data to the rest as someone tries to close in and disrupt the master.

Good write-up, Moonsword. The world needs more Manlyness.

The idea of Thomas Hogarth as the Lyran epitome of the Manly Man got into my brain and refused to go away.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Gürteltier MBT
« Reply #29 on: 19 July 2011, 14:19:51 »
After the Jihad, Hogarth drives a Gurteltier to his office every morning- personally. Hover limo be damned.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

 

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