Author Topic: Adv Movement in Atmosphere  (Read 1059 times)

Zematus737

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Adv Movement in Atmosphere
« on: 20 August 2023, 13:38:19 »
So, there are two very great shorts in Strat Ops, Punitive Strike and Desperate Thrill.  In both stories vectors are used in the writing of both stories, yet both fights are in atmosphere.  I am often told that the Adv. vectors and flight system was for space only.  What's the deal -- is this an advanced option for just space?

I'm assuming a misreading of a paragraph on pg.64 could have caused this interpretation error, together with the example being placed in the void:

'The basic aerospace rules represent a simplification of the
mechanics governing movement in space, trading realism for
playability.'

cray

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Re: Adv Movement in Atmosphere
« Reply #1 on: 26 August 2023, 07:52:23 »
Desperate Thrills opens with conventional atmospheric maneuvering that wouldn't be possible with space-based vector movement (outside of Star Warsian physics, anyway):

Quote
Then he rolled right and nosed down, dropping into a U-shaped
turn that brought him right back up again, standing on his tail,
his Stuka an arrow pointed at the DropShip’s soft belly.

...

He juked right-left-up-right, trying to throw off the
gunners’ solution, then shoved his throttle hard over, arcing
out of the steep climb and sending his fighter racing away
from the dropper.

Punitive Strike opens in space, so some vector maneuvering is appropriate. Later, the atmospheric combat takes on a conventional atmospheric aspect:

Quote
Stomping her left pedal, Lindz wrenched the yoke over, throwing
her fighter into a tight roll.

...

In space the Smoke Jaguar could have rotated his Chaeronea
on a short axis—keeping the extended-range particle projection
cannon focused on Lindz as she flared up and wide. But the thick
soup of air limited his options. If he wanted to keep his straightahead
weapon bearing, he had to turn, pulling up as she rose.
Lindz jigged her yoke right, again, then left—complicating the
firing solution without affecting her overall arc.
As long as air flowed across wings, physics dictated the Jaguar
had to give up speed to stay inside her arc.

So I don't agree that the two pieces of fiction depict space-based vector maneuvering in the atmosphere. The authors were trying to depict atmospheric dogfights.

Were there specific quotes in those shorts that makes you think vector-based maneuvering was in effect in the atmosphere?

It might also be worth reviewing the section, "Fiction vs Rules," in StratOps.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Zematus737

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Re: Adv Movement in Atmosphere
« Reply #2 on: 29 August 2023, 18:45:55 »
The use of phrasing was found later in the story, and it was against ground units in Punitive Strike:

Quote
A fiery point appeared at the top edge of
the tactical display. Checking vectors, Lindz
boosted her throttle a notch. She didn’t
bother telling Bicker to do the same.
Her wingman could read numbers as
well as she—or failing that, would notice
her Avar pulling ahead.

In Desperate Thrill the swing maneuver in question is in this part:

Quote
“Just follow my lead, Snakebite. Top Hat, you have lead on the
starboard Hammer. You need to be jukin’ and jivin’, boys and girls.
Wingmen, remember this is not a convoy. You need to come in
behind, but on your own vectors. After first pass, we’ll come
up and do BDA before swinging around for the next pass. Any
questions?”

These were the specific quotes and the tease about it all was in the appropriate channel, imo. 

And the Leopard was in reentry when that fancy underbelly maneuver happened.  Vector movement can be limited in atmosphere with turn limitation and can be pretty useful with VTOL movement, as some side slipping in Advanced movement is still too rigid to accommodate their potential to maintain higher velocity.

cray

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Re: Adv Movement in Atmosphere
« Reply #3 on: 30 August 2023, 18:13:16 »
First, outside of rules, the term "vector" is appropriate for atmospheric maneuvering, too. It is commonly used in air traffic control, for example.

Second, "vector" is also highly applicable to assessing the forces working on an aerospace vehicle: lift vector, thrust vector, weight vector, etc.

And as Strategic Operations noted in "Fiction vs. Rules:"

Quote
It is important to remember that regardless of the critical
role fiction plays in immersing players in the BattleTech universe,
such fiction should never be construed as rules. As with
Total Warfare, TechManual and Tactical Operations, to eliminate
confusion about which sections are fiction and which are rules,
the fiction sections have a unique look, compared to the
uniform presentation of the various rules sections. All fiction
sections are italicized in the table of contents.

The term "vector" was used appropriately in the fictional contexts of maneuvering aircraft being navigated toward specific locations. The wording was not meant to be representative of vector movement rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.