Star League swag numbers and a potential misinterpretation.

[Church14]

To answer your question, I'm talking about the Third Star League, not the first.

Yes, we don't know what will happen, but we do where we end up. The 3250 blurbs tell us that. We know there are only two ways for Alaric to form the Third Star League. The first way is similar to Ian Cameron's method of forming the First Star League. Through a mixture of honest diplomacy, appeasement, coercion, manipulation, and misinformation.

The second way, is through military force, beating a faction into submission. We already know the Third Star League will form, so it's either one of these two, or a mixture of both. The kicker is that all of the novels and sourcebooks leading up to Eye's Only, have given us reasons why Alaric shouldn't be able to do either.

Despite being smaller, the Terran Hegemony was still a peer of its Inner Sphere contemporaries. Its military was just as capable and, in many ways, the Hegemony was more advanced in technology. These elements gave House Cameron leverage. Not only could they prove to be a great enemy, but they could also be a great ally.

What does Clan Wolf have to offer? Nothing, but the plot demands that everyone treat the Wolves as if they do. What leverage does Clan Wolf have? None, but the Wolves will have it to get what they want. Alaric has spat the face of Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Hell's Horse, and Clan Ghost Bear, shattered them, manipulated them into killing each themselves, outcast them, yet eventually they all will join the Third Star League.

Let's look at things from a military perspective. What forces does Clan Wolf have? Clan Wolf has enough forces to fend off a massive Capellan assault almost immediately after a months long three-way campaign with almost the entirety of the RoTS and the Jade Falcons.

We know the broad stokes of the ilClan era, because the 3250 blurbs spoiled those for us. The Third Star League will form. The Clans will join. The Great Houses will join. There's only so many ways that can happen. However, for the BattleTech universe to reach that point, CGL is abandoning narrative cohesion by contradicting previous fiction in order to force a certain outcome. This is coming at the expense of every faction.

The proof is in ilClan Sourcebook, Empire Alone and Dominions Divided, not an opinion, but explicitly stated in the text. I speculate that's why we're getting Eye's Only in Q4, 2024, so long after the first three books. CGL says they want to make sure the novels and the sourcebooks better complement each other. I think they've noticed the contradictions.

A couple things (though I have similar concerns):
- Do we know that the 3250 league is the one Alaric is trying to found right now? Is it referenced as the third Star league or as just the Star league.
- we don’t know that all of the currently opposing clans submitted.

But overall, the 3250 blurbs are, as presented, a spectacular mistake. A storytelling albatross that needs to be thrown out. There is not a single positive aspect to their existence. They don’t add tension, don’t add a sense a “how could we get from A to B?” They add a sense of “oh, the smug POS Mary Sue in HotW keeps winning.”

The only way they aren’t a detriment to the setting is if they are a long play misdirection so we are surprised when the Alaric fails, and we are left wondering who the next ilClan could be.


But, if we throw out the 3250 blurbs, the current story has a bunch of potential.

[General308]

A couple things (though I have similar concerns):
- Do we know that the 3250 league is the one Alaric is trying to found right now? Is it referenced as the third Star league or as just the Star league.
- we don’t know that all of the currently opposing clans submitted.

But overall, the 3250 blurbs are, as presented, a spectacular mistake. A storytelling albatross that needs to be thrown out. There is not a single positive aspect to their existence. They don’t add tension, don’t add a sense a “how could we get from A to B?” They add a sense of “oh, the smug POS Mary Sue in HotW keeps winning.”

The only way they aren’t a detriment to the setting is if they are a long play misdirection so we are surprised when the Alaric fails, and we are left wondering who the next ilClan could be.


But, if we throw out the 3250 blurbs, the current story has a bunch of potential.

I don't even know why CGL is making the 3250 mistake they should know better.  Knowing the ending is exactly why people hated the Jihad.  The knew the outcome before a single peice of source material was made.  It creates resentment to the story.   They may have a great story to get to 3250 but knowing the outcome makes the universe feel like history instead of the living breathing Universe it once was.  They are litterally making the same Mistake MW:DA made with the fiction.  But worse because then they are like ignore the guy behind the 3250 door.  Ok erase the 3250 stuff and we will.

[Church14]

I don't even know why CGL is making the 3250 mistake they should know better.  Knowing the ending is exactly why people hated the Jihad.  The knew the outcome before a single peice of source material was made.  It creates resentment to the story.   They may have a great story to get to 3250 but knowing the outcome makes the universe feel like history instead of the living breathing Universe it once was.  They are litterally making the same Mistake MW:DA made with the fiction.  But worse because then they are like ignore the guy behind the 3250 door.  Ok erase the 3250 stuff and we will.

I really don’t know why the 3250 blurbs exist either.

This is a different mistake. If knowing end to a story ruins the story, it was a bad story. Knowing the end to the Jihad wasn’t the issue. The ending was chosen without a plot to explain how they got there. Forcing the elements Wizkids forced into place, and the chosen way to tell the story, and the intentionally clouded narrative were the mistake there.

Look, without the 3250 blurbs, we know clan wolf won’t die. It’s too popular with fans, too tied to the franchise, too much the plot armored protagonists of the setting. We know Alaric’s Wolves have tied their entire fate to Terra now. CCAF isn’t strong enough to defeat the Wolfes thanks to the impossible victory of HotW and there isn’t anyone else who can reach Terra in force any time soon. There’s no real tension relevant to if the wolves survive anyway. Even with Alaric’s brain dead demands of the bears losing him a strong ally for no good reason.

The tension and engagement comes from how will everyone react. What clans join? What sort of league forms? What can this ‘league’ even accomplish? Will the ‘Third Star League’ just be clan wolf in new uniforms?

The issue with the 3250 blurbs is that they seem to answer all of the questions while promising a far less interesting future than any other narrative choice. This setting is a bucket of crabs. Anyone gets too far ahead and everyone pulls them back down. 3250 blurbs paint a picture where one faction won the entire setting. They are the single dominant force in the universe, with no major opposition, no real threats. It’s everything that people hated about the initial reveal of the RotS, before the view pulled back to show everyone still mattered.

[rebs]

The Star League is a composite faction in all of its iterations. 

Clan Wolf may have the Kerensky bloodline and the IlKhan will get to pick their successor, but there will be more factions involved than just the Clans. 

[Church14]

The Star League is a composite faction in all of its iterations. 

Clan Wolf may have the Kerensky bloodline and the IlKhan will get to pick their successor, but there will be more factions involved than just the Clans.

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up?

[General308]

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up?

Kind of what it is at the moment.  It is a Star League in Alric's Mind only at this point in the story.  Only reason we know more is because CGL  has spoiled the ending by telling us Alaric wins and for the next 100 years in the Universe your faction looses unless it is Clan Wolf.

[RogueK]

Kind of what it is at the moment.  It is a Star League in Alric's Mind only at this point in the story.  Only reason we know more is because CGL  has spoiled the ending by telling us Alaric wins and for the next 100 years in the Universe your faction looses unless it is Clan Wolf.

Well.... The 3250 bits mostly mention Jade Falcon bloodnames for top leaders. And seem to have a recurring thread of venerating Elias Crichell as the greatest leader of the invasion era clans.

So it kind of looks more like the Ilclan may be taken over by the Falcons rather than Wolves winning forever. Y'know if that's actually an improvement to people. Alaric is interestingly not mentioned at all as far as I can remember.

Goal was probably to build ambiguity on who'd win on Terra between Falcons and Wolves. My current speculation is that it's also foreshadowing that Alaric is headed for a BAD fall and getting memoryholed by whoever takes over.

Not particularly keen on either outcome. The 3250 stuff had me convinced that the ilclan era wasn't worthwhile and I'd disengaged entirely from current storyline until I was convinced by some friends that Tamar Rising was good. Which has me giving it a chance at least.

Main reason I'm engaged with this topic at all is that if it is to be good then IMO The devs need to be aware of what they are going and how material is recieved. If they've completely lost touch with wider fan reception (the small loud minority doesn't really matter) then odds of the Ilclan era being good drops SHARPLY.

IMO at least. Popular doesn't automatically mean good, but working in an echo chamber tends to be worse.

And I want very badly for BT storylines to be good and popular (Popular means it's more profitable and we can get more of it after all) both

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

There's always an easy explanation to the 3250 blurbs: whoever wrote it was a sycophant. I'm sure there are tons of letters written during the Succession Wars to the "First Lord" about a campaign to "subdue the rebels"

Anyway, I think the popularity of Star League stuff can be chalked up to this being the second time they offered similar stuff. I've already got the stuff for the faction I actually play, so I grabbed a patch for the army my boys in the 2nd were briefly a part of in 3059.

[Kit deSummersville]

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up?

Well, the last time that happened there was a Jihad.

[Agathos]

Unless I've missed something, none of the 3250 blurbs spell out the fate of Alaric or of the Wolves in particular.

The success of Augustus Caesar does not mean that Julius Caesar had a particularly pleasant Ides of March. The existence of a Holy Roman Empire does not mean that Augustus' project lasted into the early 19th century. The existence of a "Kaiser" in the early 20th century does not mean the Holy Roman Empire lasted that long. People like to vacuum up names and titles from fallen institutions and stick them onto their latest projects. That is most likely what will happen by 3250.

That being said, I've pointed this out before and I don't get the sense that my viewpoint is catching on. So I'm forced to conclude that on balance, the 3250 blurbs are bad for Battletech. There's only so long you can get away with teasing your own fans and then admonishing them for not getting the joke, even if you are technically correct.

[Church14]

Relevant to the original thread. I’m, in spite of my arguments about its wholly unearned inception in other threads, very interested with how the ilClan era goes. It’s the newest lore, and most of the era is good stuff. Watching the clans come to terms with a clan holding Terra.

I didn’t buy any SLDF or clan swag. Enjoying and being invested in the era doesn’t mean it’s where I’m putting my KS rewards.

Unless I've missed something, none of the 3250 blurbs spell out the fate of Alaric or of the Wolves in particular.
.
.
.

I have to hope it’s a big misdirection. If I recall correctly:
- there’s no wolf bloodnames mentioned
- there’s a mention of a last annihilation
- I don’t think there is a mention of how the Star league in the blurbs was founded
- I don’t think it’s called the third Star league in the blurbs.

Which leaves some Star Trek Vulcan levels of truth telling loopholes available. There’s room for an interesting story still.

[Luciora]

I see Star League, I think Camerons, not Sunny, not Theodore and certainly not Alaric. 

I also opted for Arano swag.

The second Star League didn't last long enough to be memorable enough for me to register it as the Star League.  I also expect the same out of this Third league.  (Which I also associate with a April Fools product.)

[VensersRevenge]

There's always an easy explanation to the 3250 blurbs: whoever wrote it was a sycophant. I'm sure there are tons of letters written during the Succession Wars to the "First Lord" about a campaign to "subdue the rebels"

Thank you. People take those blurbs way to literally, when unreliable narrators have been a trope for more than a century at this point.

[klarg1]

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up?

Indeed. Alaric can sit on Terra and call himself First Lord all he likes. That does not say who joins him.

 Whatever the original thinking of the 3250 teasers, I find it hard to believe “ilClan wins and we have a stable new League for centuries” was it. There was clearly *some* kind of conflict in mind for that future too.

[tassa_kay]

Whatever the original thinking of the 3250 teasers, I find it hard to believe “ilClan wins and we have a stable new League for centuries” was it. There was clearly *some* kind of conflict in mind for that future too.

I don’t know where anyone could’ve gotten that idea to begin with, because the writers certainly never sent that message in the writing. I thought it was quite obvious that the Wolves taking Terra and becoming ilClan was just the first step of the process, and we’d see a loooooooooot of conflict (i.e., the bread and butter of this franchise) to get to the state of things in 3250.

[Charistoph]

100 years is plenty of time for Sphere-shattering combat.  Just look at what happened in the 31st.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I don’t know where anyone could’ve gotten that idea to begin with, because the writers certainly never sent that message in the writing. I thought it was quite obvious that the Wolves taking Terra and becoming ilClan was just the first step of the process, and we’d see a loooooooooot of conflict (i.e., the bread and butter of this franchise) to get to the state of things in 3250.

There were people who were very publicly down on factions because the handbooks had sold poorly. Never mind this is because it was a series that they took 15 years to get out the door and all but Steiner were wildly out of date on release. Thankfully they've realized that people who are fans of particular factions far outnumber people who are just "battletech fans" in the same way that fans of specific sports teams are more common than undifferentiated "fans of [sports league]"

[rebs]

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up?

I see what you did there...

#PeripheryApproved

[ColBosch]

I don’t know where anyone could’ve gotten that idea to begin with, because the writers certainly never sent that message in the writing. I thought it was quite obvious that the Wolves taking Terra and becoming ilClan was just the first step of the process, and we’d see a loooooooooot of conflict (i.e., the bread and butter of this franchise) to get to the state of things in 3250.

Yep. Like BattleTech is ever going to let the wars end.

[Hotham]

A couple things (though I have similar concerns):
- Do we know that the 3250 league is the one Alaric is trying to found right now? Is it referenced as the third Star league or as just the Star league.
- we don’t know that all of the currently opposing clans submitted.

But overall, the 3250 blurbs are, as presented, a spectacular mistake. A storytelling albatross that needs to be thrown out. There is not a single positive aspect to their existence. They don’t add tension, don’t add a sense a “how could we get from A to B?” They add a sense of “oh, the smug POS Mary Sue in HotW keeps winning.”

The only way they aren’t a detriment to the setting is if they are a long play misdirection so we are surprised when the Alaric fails, and we are left wondering who the next ilClan could be.


But, if we throw out the 3250 blurbs, the current story has a bunch of potential.

The following quote is a snippet taken from the 3250 blurb in TRO: Dark Age.

In our modern context, the saying most often used to describe the so-called "Dark Age" era, the six or seven decades between the end of the Blakist Jihad and and the rise of the ilClan.

The speaker not only references the ilClan, but Alaric's ilClan. However, others have pointed out that we do not know if Clan Wolf stills heads up the ilClan in 3250. I think that's a valid argument and I will address those comments individually in the post.

In regard to opposing Clans, no, we don't know which factions have submitted. However, we do have this following quote. Also, taken from TRO: Dark Age.

Conversely, the effects of the Blackout did not magically disappear with the rise of the ilClan, and lingered for several years after the Last Annihilation.

The speaker talks of the Last Annihilation. This can be interpreted in many ways. It could be the last in a series of annihilations over a specific time period. Or it could mean the last annihilation of a single faction in the Inner Sphere before the practice is outlawed by the ilClan/Third Star League. Regardless at least one faction is completely destroyed, and this doesn't just potentially include Clans, but also the Great Houses as well.

CGL has stated that they are not throwing out the 3250 blurbs and have claimed that the blurbs don't provide the whole picture, they only did so after they received pushback. There may be changes or elaborations in the future, but as of right now, this is what CGL decided to give us.

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up?

I have to admit that this question got me excited. It's ringed of self-awareness. Then I actually thought about it. What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up? Then you make them show up. Why, because we already know there will be a Third Star League, making the question a moot point.

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up... at first?

Well.... The 3250 bits mostly mention Jade Falcon bloodnames for top leaders. And seem to have a recurring thread of venerating Elias Crichell as the greatest leader of the invasion era clans.

Main reason I'm engaged with this topic at all is that if it is to be good then IMO The devs need to be aware of what they are going and how material is recieved. If they've completely lost touch with wider fan reception (the small loud minority doesn't really matter) then odds of the Ilclan era being good drops SHARPLY.

IMO at least. Popular doesn't automatically mean good, but working in an echo chamber tends to be worse.

And I want very badly for BT storylines to be good and popular (Popular means it's more profitable and we can get more of it after all) both

The 3250 blurbs only mention the Roshak bloodname, held by Loremaster Stephan Roshak. No other currently living Clan character is mentioned. However, that doesn't rule out the possibility that the Jade Falcons could have  supplanted Clan Wolf.

I would argue that it doesn't matter which Clan is ilClan by 3250, the foundation of the Third Star League as it stands right now is very shaky.

Thank you for your egagement, I'm hoping CGL staff noticed the discussion in this thread as well.

There's always an easy explanation to the 3250 blurbs: whoever wrote it was a sycophant. I'm sure there are tons of letters written during the Succession Wars to the "First Lord" about a campaign to "subdue the rebels"

Anyway, I think the popularity of Star League stuff can be chalked up to this being the second time they offered similar stuff. I've already got the stuff for the faction I actually play, so I grabbed a patch for the army my boys in the 2nd were briefly a part of in 3059.

I'm drawing a blank on the lore. Will you elaborate of which First Lord during the Succession Wars and what rebels?

Other than that, let's say that you are right. Stephan Roshak is a sycophant, keeping in mind that a sycophant is not the same as a liar. How much of what Roshak says can we trust?

We know that the Gunslinger program is real. It's the framing for the entire Battle of Tukayyid sourcebook. We know that there's a Sortek and Marik part of the Gunsligners, meaning there's participation in the Third Star League from the House Marik and the Federated Suns.

Then there's the Auditor Clusters:

...It is for this very reason that our Auditor Clusters exist, after all, tasked with scouring the League and the Periphery for signs of unauthorized heavy industry, and they must remain ever vigilant in these efforts.

Let's say that there are no Auditor Clusters, what is CGL trying to convey to us? What is the point of going so in-depth on information should not be considered reliable? How are we supposed to look at this?

Unless I've missed something, none of the 3250 blurbs spell out the fate of Alaric or of the Wolves in particular.

That being said, I've pointed this out before and I don't get the sense that my viewpoint is catching on. So I'm forced to conclude that on balance, the 3250 blurbs are bad for Battletech. There's only so long you can get away with teasing your own fans and then admonishing them for not getting the joke, even if you are technically correct.

Whichever Clan reaches and conquers Terra, shall be the ilClan for all time. All ilKhans of the ilClan thereafter will arise from that Clan till the end of time. This is Nicholas Kerensky's decree.

For the day will come and our kin will stand
On Terra's firm soil, ready to rebuild
The Star League with their hearts and hands.
But who shall lead? Upon whose shoulders
Will the burden lie? The answer is the test;
The test is the journey. Whichever Clan
Carves its way through the barbarians
To reach that fabled cradle of us all
Shall be the vehicle of the League's rebirth. Upon
The Star League throne shall sit that Clan's
Wisest Khan. So should it be -- So shall it be.
-- The Remembrance, Passage 72, Verse 22, Lines 14-24

It should be noted that there's the possiblilty that Alaric could go against this and open the ilKhanship to other Clans. That begs the question, if Nicholas Kerensky's beliefs of conquering Terra and forming a new Star League hold so much value to Clans, why would the abandon the one Clan for ilClan, forever rule.

Thank you. People take those blurbs way to literally, when unreliable narrators have been a trope for more than a century at this point.

Perhaps, but two sourcebooks and four technical readouts over the course of six years? That seems a little excessive for an attempt at misdirection. You would think after the poor reception of the Jihad plotbooks, CGL would be weary of the unreliable narrator trope.

I don’t know where anyone could’ve gotten that idea to begin with, because the writers certainly never sent that message in the writing. I thought it was quite obvious that the Wolves taking Terra and becoming ilClan was just the first step of the process, and we’d see a loooooooooot of conflict (i.e., the bread and butter of this franchise) to get to the state of things in 3250.

So far, no one has expressed that idea in this thread.

[Scotty]

A not-insignificant portion of the Battle of Tukayyid sourcebook is written from the 3250 perspective and is where the Elias Critchell commentary comes from.

It also, amusingly and further in support of a Jade Falcon brand set of rosey lenses, goes out of its way to call the Steel Vipers morons and losers.

[tassa_kay]

It also, amusingly and further in support of a Jade Falcon brand set of rosey lenses, goes out of its way to call the Steel Vipers morons and losers.

To be fair, they're not wrong.

[Empyrus]

Regardless of how the Third League starts, by 3250 its politics could have lead to idolizing Critchell and the like. Politics valued over warriors, something like that.
100 years is a lot of time for things to change in various ways. And stuff about the past written in 3250 would be influenced by ideas of that era.
Contrast how in early 31st Century, the 1st Star League was mythologized, idealized kinda. Around the Jihad, the Spheroid view of the 1st Star League is viewed perhaps more realistically, at least judging by how the various modern SL sourcebooks are in-universe documents published circa 3070-85.

[Luciora]

I can buy the omission of the Unseen mechs and admission of the downgraded SL mechs in the various TROs as the work of yet another splinter Comstar group bent on information management.😁

[Jal Phoenix]

It also, amusingly and further in support of a Jade Falcon brand set of rosey lenses, goes out of its way to call the Steel Vipers morons and losers.

I think that might have just been me. The Invasion-era Vipers had an incredible touman, and the worst khans of any Clan. The epitomized the idea that being a great warrior didn't translate into being a great leader. They were my favorite Clan, but I had no love for their khans. That probably bled through into my writing.

[GuyIncognito]

I did like the Snow Raven author saying they'd be fair and unbiased and then almost immediately paints the most biased and hateful take possible.

[Empyrus]

I think that might have just been me. The Invasion-era Vipers had an incredible touman, and the worst khans of any Clan. The epitomized the idea that being a great warrior didn't translate into being a great leader. They were my favorite Clan, but I had no love for their khans. That probably bled through into my writing.

I'm guessing Candent Sortek really hates Viper Khan canonically then :D

I mean, the Gunslinger's notes are written by Sortek in-universe right.

[Church14]

The speaker not only references the ilClan, but Alaric's ilClan. However, others have pointed out that we do not know if Clan Wolf stills heads up the ilClan in 3250. I think that's a valid argument and I will address those comments individually in the post.

CGL has stated that they are not throwing out the 3250 blurbs and have claimed that the blurbs don't provide the whole picture, they only did so after they received pushback. There may be changes or elaborations in the future, but as of right now, this is what CGL decided to give us.

I have to admit that this question got me excited. It's ringed of self-awareness. Then I actually thought about it. What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up? Then you make them show up. Why, because we already know there will be a Third Star League, making the question a moot point.

What if you had a Star League and nobody showed up... at first?

Thank you for your egagement, I'm hoping CGL staff noticed the discussion in this thread as well.

This is a thread to make a mountain of of molehills, so I guess I’m wondering why they refer to the rise of the ilClan and not the rise of the Star league at the end of the dark ages.

I do believe CGL intends to keep to the 3250 blurbs and they are earnest when they say so, but they’ve retconned future lore glimpses once it got in the way of the new metaplot. So I expect the 3250 blurbs will be a guiding light, but specifics will get ditched over time if they are inconvenient.

Given what we know, and continuing on the mountains of molehills we (me included) are looking at here, I get the impression that Alaric will found the wolves as ilClan (already did), but his supposed league won’t succeed. That’s the “incomplete” information the blurbs tap dance around. Eventually someone who’s an actual leader and not just a warlord will found a Star League.


As for engagement, we want to see lore unfold, we care about how it does, and we want to have some amount of tension and curiosity where the overall plot goes.

[glitterboy2098]

or perhaps he'll found his League, and eventually most everyone joins (even if at the barrel of a gun).. but the wolves themselves end up becoming a lot less powerful or important in said league by 3250 than their initial intent.
after all, they aren't the Terran Hegemony, there is no way they can dictate things as much as the Camerons did. the TH had the biggest stick at the time of the 1st league's founding, industrially, militarily, and technologically. and you can bet that if a new league is formed, the other clans will end up pushing for something closer to the grand council, and the IS states pushing for something closer to the 2nd league. without the military and industrial power to fully dictate the terms, Alaric is going to have to accept a fair number of compromises to get things built.

[General308]

or perhaps he'll found his League, and eventually most everyone joins (even if at the barrel of a gun).. but the wolves themselves end up becoming a lot less powerful or important in said league by 3250 than their initial intent.
after all, they aren't the Terran Hegemony, there is no way they can dictate things as much as the Camerons did. the TH had the biggest stick at the time of the 1st league's founding, industrially, militarily, and technologically. and you can bet that if a new league is formed, the other clans will end up pushing for something closer to the grand council, and the IS states pushing for something closer to the 2nd league. without the military and industrial power to fully dictate the terms, Alaric is going to have to accept a fair number of compromises to get things built.

Or the reason you see Falcon Blood names mentioned is because the Wolves absorbe the Falcons.  Given the state of things I find that more likely than the Wolves being less important.   I also don't think CGL lets Alaric live much longer.  Kill him he becomes a Maryter.