Author Topic: Battle Armor and its uses  (Read 14194 times)

Firesprocket

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3261
  • Everyone was Kung Fu Fighting!
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #30 on: 02 October 2024, 19:19:45 »
Yup, per Total War (I forget the page), Infantry(BA included) are denied most alternate ammo, but Inferno is one of the few called out exceptions.

Even more fun is that they're assigned by salvo, so your basic Elemental can carry one salvo of standard missiles and one of Inferno, and they can be fired in any order desired. It's particularly fun to have a fire shot or two in a suit that carries several shots, like the Ogre. When you've got eight shots, players will often forget over the course of the game that *one* of them is Inferno. And then you just wait for one enemy mech to push their heat scale while wandering too close, and...fwoosh.  :evil:

My apologies for this targeted thread necro.  I haven't played a game with BA in a few years and I haven't specifically found the page you were referencing.  I believe you, but as I'm likely going to play another game in the near future can you source the piece regarding by salvo?

Additionally is there any difference to BV that has to then be account for?

DaevaHuG0

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Not a Poltergeist
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #31 on: 02 October 2024, 20:07:45 »
My apologies for this targeted thread necro.  I haven't played a game with BA in a few years and I haven't specifically found the page you were referencing.  I believe you, but as I'm likely going to play another game in the near future can you source the piece regarding by salvo?

Additionally is there any difference to BV that has to then be account for?

Total Warfare page 229 covers what munition BA can take, and notes that for suits that carry multiple shots for a given launcher, the BA squad can designate each shot as a particular type of ammo that the BA can use.

None of the ammo types BA can take should modify BV as far as I can tell.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 41993
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #32 on: 03 October 2024, 06:09:48 »
Total Warfare page 229 covers what munition BA can take, and notes that for suits that carry multiple shots for a given launcher, the BA squad can designate each shot as a particular type of ammo that the BA can use.

None of the ammo types BA can take should modify BV as far as I can tell.

Correct on all counts. The only TW ammo that changes BV is Semi-Guided.
My wife writes books

Sixteen tons means sixteen suits. CT must be repaired.

"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30153
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #33 on: 03 October 2024, 06:41:22 »
IIRC that adjustment also factors in number of TAG which is carried by a decent amount of BA.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14900
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #34 on: 03 October 2024, 09:00:06 »
We really need some Errata.

BA w/ NARC &/or TAG combined w/ SRM/LRM tubes are fluffed as working w/ each other but the rules won't allow that & all the missiles end up having to come from Tanks/Mechs.

Ugh, so annoying.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30153
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #35 on: 03 October 2024, 10:05:54 »
We really need some Errata.

BA w/ NARC &/or TAG combined w/ SRM/LRM tubes are fluffed as working w/ each other but the rules won't allow that & all the missiles end up having to come from Tanks/Mechs.

Ugh, so annoying.

Yeah, I was surprised to find they could not fire NARC equipped missiles, especially with Gnomes Advanced SRMs being packed.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Son of Kerenski

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 552
  • Everything is AWESOME.
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #36 on: 04 January 2025, 02:35:01 »
Try using a a star or 2 of Coronas or Ironholds.

So nasty

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12625
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #37 on: 05 January 2025, 10:39:29 »
Torpedoes are not a launcher?
Where is that from?
they must have an early printing of Total Warfare, because that had been included by mistake, and they later had to release an update as part of errata.

torpedoes require dedicated launchers, and cannot be used by MML's.

Daryk

  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 42348
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #38 on: 05 January 2025, 10:46:06 »
Are there not MTTs?

Wolf72

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3419
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #39 on: 08 January 2025, 16:27:49 »
Are there not MTTs?

That would be a logical step forward for new equipment imo.

There are variable BA munitions for use, launcher is same, ammo is different (performs in both atmo and water). (doesn't the Undine use such ammo?)
« Last Edit: 08 January 2025, 16:33:55 by Wolf72 »
"We're caught in the moon's gravitational pull, what do we do?!"

CI KS #1357; Merc KS #9798

"We're sending a squad up."

Church14

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1611
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #40 on: 13 January 2025, 07:17:49 »
I have never really understood the value of battlearmor.  It is slower than mechs and vehicles with less armor and weaponry.  It is better than infantry but other than riding in on a mech or vehicle it doesn't seem like a great option.  Boarding spacecraft, check, makes sense.  In a city or confined space, potentially useful.  But general use escapes me.

Any simple explanations would be nice.

Dan
I was thinking on this thread. Since there were just a couple responses before we got into rules oddities. A couple things to try with BA to help.

1) Remember that BA comes in different stripes. There's two to focus on
1a) Heavy/Assault BA is generally slow (like 1 movement), heavily armed and armored, and a pain to destroy without AOE weapons. These are your semi-mobile minefields. Their use case really is dumping them out of an APC where they are going to stay, then calling it good.
1b) Light/Medium BA is generally going to be okay armor, okay mobility, okay firepower. These are your IS Standards, Elementals, Longinus, callisto, etc. These are still going to be slower than mechs, so still mostly reliant on APCs or riding a mech into battle. The main difference in gameplay between light and medium is that the light BA is normally not worth the effort to shoot, so it keeps chipping away, while medium BA is going to draw more aggro and can take more hits. These are still going to be a semi-mobile minefield, but the option to go for leg attacks and swarm is now on the table and it badly screws with players' heads.

2) Pay attention to the weapons.
2a) BA with just small lasers, flamers, machine guns, micro-pulse, etc. (the 1/2/3 range guns) are going to want to deploy behind hills and stay there as a threat to force the opposing player to maneuver wide around that hill or risk leg attacks. Use that to force suboptimal movement.
2b) BA with one-shot missiles are generally the same. You're saving those for a good shot and using the threat of it to force other players to do odd things to avoid. But the extra range means you can use them in a little more open terrain. Still dump them in woods if possible.
2c) BA that can sustain fire, like 3+ turns of it, are going to be ones you want with your mechs and tanks. Drop them once you expect fighting to start, or where you expect it to end up. Left alone, these are actually worth the effort of hosing down, so you want mechs nearby to force decisions from other players.

3) Pay attention to armor
3a) Mimetic armor is the ultimate minefield armor. +1 for being BA, and +3 for standing still. Dump them in woods and suddenly you have something nobody wants to waste shots on. Also look for the weaker Camo System. It's only +2 for sdtanding still, but nice.
3b) Stealth armor is obnoxious as heck. Especially improved stealth. Basic stealth is the same +0/+1/+2 of mech stealth, and standard is +1/+1/+2 but improved is +1/+2/+3. Take the angerona, with improved stealth, and run them into medium range of your enemy's weapons. +2 for their medium, +2 for your improved stealth, +1 for BA, +1 for running 3 hexes. So even if the mech stood still, they need gunnery+6, so often a 10 or better to hit you. If you combine that with a decent ranged weapon, even the angerona's LRR, you can actually run the suits out in the open with reasonable chance of survival.
3c) Reflective and Reactive exist, mostly just remember that when eating damage.

4) Look at mobility. Objectively, jumping is better. Running has several very limited niches where it is better in city via climbing buildings and running through tall buildings. Gray Death Standard's 3 run is almost always inferior to IS Standards 3 jump until you enter a city with height 4 buildings. Then, suddenly GD Standard has a niche where it can shine. That said, the difference is not huge, so don't avoid armor because it only runs.
4a) Quad BA is amusing, and can go stupidly fast. Remember that BA doesn't pay the first MP penalty for woods or have facings, so a 5 hex run goes farther than 5 run would on a mech. And the Buraq's 7 run is worth a try sometime.


I wish I had "simple" answers, but the use case is so hardware dependent.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30153
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #41 on: 13 January 2025, 07:44:52 »
One other thing not mentioned about Stealth armor is that it messes with a unit's firing options.  BA is often tagged as a secondary target . . . But that cannot be done wStealth armor.

One other mobility/deployment note- BA w/JJ can deploy from VTOLs w/o landing.  Which means even those assault BA with a single jump can fling themselves from a VTOL to instantly deploy in the heavy woods below that VTOL.

It gives them the safest deployment you will see- +1 for BA, +1/2 for woods, and I think +2 for jumping.  You also want those BA jumping every turn/c that is the only way heavy/assault that are not quads get a mod.  Remember they are not penalized on their TH for jumping, so no+1 TH like mechs.

Medium BA are also one of the best way to get camping fire support units to move- for that reason I love Clan Med BA Like Roche & Rabid. They can move faster than the mechs or tanks in places people like to park fire support.

Finally, the biggest use is in combined arms to keep an opponent reacting.  Anyone on the receiving end of a properly employed BA attack will never ignore them again.  OOC it pushes a more balanced force selection for games.  Instead of loading as many 3/5 Gauss rifle armed mechs in the BV cap as possible, a player will bring designs able to get away from BA.  They will bring meds or other designs to economically kill BA (see plasma rifle and Inferno SRMs) or at least pick Gauss boats with secondary arrays that stand a chance of killing BA- remember every Gauss slug used to kill a 8-11 HP BA is not one traveling down range to headcap your mechs.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Church14

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1611
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #42 on: 13 January 2025, 08:53:18 »
I'm not 100% on if you can target stealth BA as a secondary or not. It feels like you shouldn't be able to, but megamek allows it and the secondary target line for stealth calls out mechs with stealth armor, not units.

Charistoph

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4518
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #43 on: 13 January 2025, 10:12:29 »
One other thing not mentioned about Stealth armor is that it messes with a unit's firing options.  BA is often tagged as a secondary target . . . But that cannot be done wStealth armor.

I'm going to need a source for that one.  It may fall under "Bad Idea" to Secondary Target a Stealthed Battle Armor, but there is no restriction against it in the rules.

The closest I get is that Infantry only get a +1 for Secondary Targets as they lack Facings.

... I think +2 for jumping.

It's +1 for Jumping.  No one gets +2 for Jumping.

Remember they are not penalized on their TH for jumping, so no+1 TH like mechs.

+3 AMM for Jumping on Mechs, and +0 for Jumping on Infantry, BA or other-wise.

Medium BA are also one of the best way to get camping fire support units to move- for that reason I love Clan Med BA Like Roche & Rabid. They can move faster than the mechs or tanks in places people like to park fire support.

Depends on the Fire Support and where they are at.  Most Jumping Fire Support can Jump at least as far as most Medium BA (a couple exceptions on both sides exist, though).

Still, where Medium BA shine is the ability to do Legging and Swarm Attacks.  As much Gun as the Heavies and Assaults bringing, being able to take out the Legs of Mechs is too nice to easily give up, imo.

Finally, the biggest use is in combined arms to keep an opponent reacting.  Anyone on the receiving end of a properly employed BA attack will never ignore them again.  OOC it pushes a more balanced force selection for games.  Instead of loading as many 3/5 Gauss rifle armed mechs in the BV cap as possible, a player will bring designs able to get away from BA.  They will bring meds or other designs to economically kill BA (see plasma rifle and Inferno SRMs) or at least pick Gauss boats with secondary arrays that stand a chance of killing BA- remember every Gauss slug used to kill a 8-11 HP BA is not one traveling down range to headcap your mechs.

I took an Inner Sphere nova (Raptor, Owens, Firestarter, and Black Hawk-KU w/ IS Standards) against a C3 Lance.  We were on that nasty battlemat that has all those desert hills that look like the tops are sunken.  That allowed me to approach largely unhittable from his fire support as the hills were high enough for the non-Jumping Raptor and Owens to close and drop off their BA.  The Firestarter and Black Hawk were Jumping through divots to bring their BA to bear.  By the time he could draw a bead with most of his fire support, one of the BA were already off and either going after his spotters.  After a couple more Turns, the Firestarter was up and dropping of their BA among the fire support, and the Owens dropped off theirs in the backfield.

The guy was a BA nut, too, and so it freaked him out how close I was able to deliver them.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30153
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #44 on: 13 January 2025, 10:54:12 »
Re- +2 for jumping- that was a typo for posting from the phone as I am not sure it was ever addressed about them getting a +1 for the style of their dismount.  Unloading from ground transport does not but they are not jumping clear.

But Med BA get a +2 total, when cited that way it is not broken down for the 1 jump and 1 for 3-4 hexes of movement.

I think a clarification for the Stealth is called for b/c we also get vehicular stealth now.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Firesprocket

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3261
  • Everyone was Kung Fu Fighting!
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #45 on: 13 January 2025, 21:44:09 »
I think a clarification for the Stealth is called for b/c we also get vehicular stealth now.
The verison of Tac Ops I have available states that vehicular stealth has the same benefits and drawbacks as a Mech's stealth armor.  Secondary targeting is not allowed per BMM and TW.  TW does not have an entry listing the same restriction for Infantry and I didn't find a quick answer in the rules forum.

Agathos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 766
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #46 on: 14 January 2025, 05:29:22 »
"A 'Mech with its stealth armor system engaged cannot be attacked as a secondary target" is how Total Warfare puts it. I don't see any such language in the Infantry chapter. It would be nice if stealth was stealth across all unit types, but it just isn't so.

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12002
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #47 on: 14 January 2025, 06:21:09 »
"A 'Mech with its stealth armor system engaged cannot be attacked as a secondary target" is how Total Warfare puts it. I don't see any such language in the Infantry chapter. It would be nice if stealth was stealth across all unit types, but it just isn't so.

It's 30 feet tall and it moves by stomping.  That's kinda hard to just HIDE.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30153
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #48 on: 14 January 2025, 06:32:58 »
Which has little to do with Stealth armor preventing secondary targeting.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Charistoph

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4518
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #49 on: 14 January 2025, 08:13:18 »
Which kind of addresses the point that Stealth BA can be Secondary Targeted while the big stompy Pillager in Stealth Armor cannot.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

Agathos

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 766
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #50 on: 14 January 2025, 08:30:53 »
It is now entirely unclear to me if we're talking about what the rule is, or about what the rule ought to be. I think it's pretty clear. But if you want to houserule it, I won't raise much fuss.

ANS Kamas P81

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14045
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #51 on: 14 January 2025, 12:08:36 »
Could always hit up the Ask The Writers board.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30153
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Armor and its uses
« Reply #52 on: 14 January 2025, 14:04:56 »
Not writers, but rules- and already did this morning.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."