Let's Talk Battle Armor

[Church14]

Every blue moon there’s a thread about battle armor use. What’s good, what’s bad, etc. I figured I would compile my thoughts on this. Hopefully helps someone. This isn't meant to be a lore deep dive, but I'll cover a couple of details

A Brief History of the Universe of Battle Armor.

• 2720 - The Start League made PA(L) suits with the NIghthawk XXI. It’s also the first suit with extended life support, Single Hex ECM, Anti-Personnel Weapon, and stealth armor. Also, the first mechanized and swarm capable. This is mostly going to be the first and last PA(L) I bring up as at a TW scale, PA(L) are pretty terrible and basically exist
  for scenarios or initiative sinking.
• 2842 - First medium power armor, the Water Elemental.
• 2868 - Wolves create the first battle armor designed for frontline combat.
• 2871 - Hell’s Horses create the first heavy battle armor.
• 2905 - Comstar makes the first Camo System for BA with Tornado
• 3050 - NAIS, off of clan salvage, creates the Infiltrator, the first light battle armor.
• 3050 - TharHes and NAIS make the first quad battle armor, the Sloth.
• 3052 - IS Standard becomes the first IS made battle armor widely adopted.
• 3056 - Kage becomes the first battle armor with the Squad Support Weapon Mount, allowing multiple troopers to carry components of a weapon that will be assembled and used in the field.
• 3058 - The Kanazuchi becomes the first assault battle armor.
• 3062 - Fa Shih becomes the first battle armor to use Magnetic Clamps, allowing mechanization without omnis. It’s also the first battle armor to deploy standard minefields, and be geared to clear minefields.

There’s other firsts to make note of, but these are the early achievements

Battle Armor BV Calcs
Time for a confession. I do not care about construction weight. Equipment's weight doesn't affect BV. It just affects how much is on a mech, tank, or suit of armor. And unless you are making customs, it doesn't matter at all. My focus is entirely on mechanical effects and if those are worth the cost. This detail is something to consider when you read through what I have to say.

So let's talk BV. It comes in three parts. Offensive, Defensive, and the squad size modifier.
Defensive BV: There's a whole two parts to this. The first is that Reactive, Reflective, and Fire Resistant increase the basic value per point of armor by 40%. The second is that the defensive multiplier is entirely based on your maximum to-hit you can achieve. That includes your +1 for small target, highest TMM from running or jumping, and the max added to-hit penalty for your Camo System, Mimetic, or stealth armor.

Example: Angerona have 3 run (+1), Camo System (+2 max), and improved stealth (+3 max). Add in the small target and you get a +7 to hit max. Which makes the final defensive modifer 1.7

Now let's talk offensive BV. It also comes in three parts. First, all your weapons. Second, if you are swarm capable it counts the weapons you can attack with in swarm a second time. Finally, the offensive modifier uses a chart in TechManual that mechs use, but instead of a calculation double counting MASC/SC, and JJ, for BA it's just the max hexes moved.

Which means, having more than one run and jump actually offers no BV increase for defensive or offensive BV. This is not how mechs work, and I think people often assume battle armor suffer similarly in BV. So Gray Death Infiltrator suits, which have a 3/3/3 movement (3 walk, 3 run, 3 jump), pay nothing in BV for the 3 run in their offensive or defensive BV modifiers.

Squad size multiplier
I could get into it in detail, but the short version is that squads of 4 troopers have a very small advantage in expected damage for the BV compared to five and six person squads. Just under about 10% better. Given that RNG in this game tends to beat your minmaxing with a hose, and the low BV of battle armor, it's not enough to matter. That, and unless you're building customs, you run the squad size your faction uses and that's the end of it.

Hardware
Some pieces of hardware to care about that people might not understand if they are new to BA, or haven’t dug into BA.

• Stealth(basic) - Mech stealth armor generates heat, can be disabled, switched on or off, and provides a +0/+1/+2 to the to-hit roll. BA stealth armor just works. Basic stealth matches mech stealth’s +0/+1/+2.
• Stealth(standard) - Standard BA stealth is +1/+1/+2. That +1 at short does a surprising amount of work.
• Stealth(improved) - Improved stealth is +1/+2/+3. It’s truly an obnoxious piece of tech.
• Mimetic armor - Mimetic armor gives you a +3 to the to-hit if you stand still. Then, decreases by one for each hex you move.
• Camo System - It's mimetic armor, but starts at +2. Also, bonus points, since it isn't your BA armor, it can be combined with all non-mimetic armors.
• Battle Claws (vibro) - Vibro claws add +1 damage to physical attacks per claw.
• Battle Claws (magnetic): Magnetic claws apply a -1 to the swarm attack roll, and a +1 to efforts to shake swarming BA off.
• Improved sensors - A 2 hex range BAP. Just like BAP, this really wants scenarios. Now, TacOps Improved Active Probe rule doesn't specify mechs, so Improved Sensors should also gain that ability to ignore the first +1 of woods if the enemy is in range, and BA typically fight at much closer ranges.

There’s other equipment, like extended life support and the like. Those are going to be scenario dependent, and the people taking advantage of them are going to have to read up on them at the time. 

There's also four movement enhancers

• Partial Wing - increases jump by one in atmosphere. Note that megamek will not increase the jump value of the suit when applied, because it's not a guaranteed effect. Only Kage, a Djinn variant, and a Rogue Bear variant have this.
• Jump Booster - increases jump by one
• Mechanical Jump Booster - increases run by one, and adds a non-JJ jump. Megamek will goof this up for customs and tell you it stacks with JJ. All canon units are fine.
• Myomer Booster - Adds two run to light and medium, one run to heavy and assault, and adds two damage per suit during physical attacks. That said, only three kinds of non-quad suits run this. Fa Shi 2, some Sylphs, and the Elemental II

Speaking of Physical attacks
You get two, but only if you are using light or medium bipedal suits. Relevant to both: they go off in the weapons phase, so someone can't panic and hose your BA down if you get them into the same hex as a mech or tank. Also, both suffer penalties once you drop to three remaining troopers.

• Leg attacks - You do four damage to a leg and roll a crit automatically. If you went internal, roll two crits. Vibro claws do increase this damage to possibly an entire six points. Myomer booster increases it by two per trooper. Doesn't matter. You're here for the crit rolls and you know it. This attack goes off immediately, and a lot of mechs don't have well-padded legs to soak a crit.
• Swarm attack - This is what everyone wants to do when they get BA. It's gratifying to pull off if you can, but that's the hook. Turn one of this attack is just starting the swarm. You don't do damage. If you succeed, on following turns you get to just paste the upper torso of the swarmed mech with an auto crit roll. The problem is that there's a handful of ways to stop this. There's an intentional 'fall' that can knock the BA off and leave them open to a thrashing attack. There's just jumping. There's going into water. Leg attacks are your low risk, moderate reward physical, and swarms are the high risk and high reward.

Movement
BA have two main movement modes. Running and jumping. Jump is nearly strictly superior mechanically. You have no typical limitations beyond terrain height, and +1 TMM for jumping. That said, a run-based BA has a couple of niche advantages, and a couple unintuitive features.

• BA are infantry and use those run rules. You have no facing so can't pay for a facing change (you just do it). They also ignore the first +1MP cost of light and heavy woods. So 3 run on BA goes a lot farther than 3 run on a mech. It also means you can just run in a triangle/circle and return to your starting hex while still getting max TMM. Jump BA actually have to move somewhere else to get the full TMM.
• IS base suits with torso mounted missiles can't jump, period, until missiles are jettisoned, but they can still run full MP. Admittedly, not many canon suits fit this criteria.
• With run movement, you can climb inside buildings quickly, jump BA can't. Niche, but it's there.
• With run movement, you run through buildings with ease. In a city where the structures are higher than the BA jump, run BA are actually faster.
• If you have DWP, in theory you could actually pay the mass to still run more than one hex, but nearly every DWP suit just accepts that you aren't going anywhere once dropped off and doesn't even try.

Suit weight
Last thing for this post. Suit weight affects maximum armor, run, and jump, mechanization (riding omnis), and physicals. The short version is lights and mediums can ride omnimechs and do physical attacks. Heavy suits lose the physical attacks, but still ride. Assault suits are getting in an APC, no omni love. Quads cannot do physicals or ride omnis regardless of weight, though they do get a baked in run speed bonus.


If people like this, I can dive further into BA theory, and what to look at for good and bad designs mechanically. Stuff like watching out that you're paying double BV for weapons on suits particularly ill-suited for physical attacks, suit speed and reasonable weapons, and balancing limited shots against mobility and armor.

[DevianID]

So for suit weight, one of my pet peeves is that many of those armors are clearly not 2 tons, but the construction rules cram them into 2 ton assault weight.  This is mostly a visual issue I have, as a kanazuchi is way too big for a 2 ton BA, but rules wise who cares right?  Except they made, in ghost of obeedah, the option to load 'ba weight' weapons onto mechs.  Now, that weight issue that was off to the side as just a visual bug to shoehorn a construction system backdated to prepublished BA, is now front and center.  BA weapons are just vastly superior, for the same tech level.  A BA medium laser is now a separate thing to the standard medium laser, with less heat and weight, and able to be installed on mechs.

A medium laser is a medium laser I have always felt, and while before I accepted the crazy BA construction rules as a 'whatever' system that wasnt an accurate weight listing, if used with the ghosts rule it splits them, and makes the BA version now many times better and an item you can mech mount.  I prefer the pre-ghosts interpretation where they were still 'logically' the same thing, just shoehorned into a BA construction system to explain the lowered weight, instead of 'no, magically its way less weight for the BA version, even when mech mounted.'

My complaint about weight aside, like you mention in your closing line there are some BV things that are off.  Leg attacks, instead of having an accurate BV value for the damage and crit they do, have a BV = to your shooting attack.  So, on PA(L) with just an AP weapon, the swarm attack is more or less free.  This makes PA(L) crazy cheap and effective leg attackers, as they usually have stealth and decent jump MP, so hitting them is tough, the cost almost nothing, and their leg attack is just as good as much more expensive BA.  Meanwhile, an AP gauss elemental is paying way too much for the leg attack, as they dont usually want to give up their AP gauss shot to make a leg attack, yet it costs them a whole second AP gauss shot.  Its why quads/assaults are so much shootier for the cost, as a quad with 2 AP gauss is the same price as a non-quad with the same speed with only 1 AP gauss and a leg attack.  2 AP gauss > greater then 1 AP gauss and a BA melee option, but the BV isnt reflective of that.  So its too cheap on the low end and too expensive on the high end.

Other BV pricing issues is the speed issue, as you mentioned.  They pay less in speed factor for the same jump as a mech, which is just wrong.  They also dont take a jump penalty, which is whatever--i dont write the rules--but you absolutely should pay for that bonus accuracy.  Its stonger then jumping jack, and jumping jack is already one of the most busted SPAs.  Its also kinda nonsense that rocketing around in a tiny thing flailing wildly causes no change in weapon stability, so its not even a flavorful rule that fits the lore or the RPG rules, its a straight, no lore support gameplay only buff that they dont need.

Finally, BA do take crits, which I like, but it varies by optional rule or by special ammo type, with each one working different.  I think I would like an easier to use crit system instead of 3+ different ones.  As it stands, its very 'all or nothing'.  You either hit with 3 infernos, or you do nothing at all versus fire resistant armor for one example.

[idea weenie]

IIRC, it was explained to me that a Mech's Medium Laser also includes small aiming systems to help in accuracy.  For BA, the entire suit is the aiming system.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Yeah, you've got to account for the structural mount, the aiming servos, the extra armor plating that protects the laser sticking out of the body's armor protection, all that.   

[DevianID]

Right, but the BA is also structurally mounted, also needs aimimg servos, extra plate to protect the laser, ECT.

It's not like a human is able to one arm hold the laser with arm straight out, its mounted and balanced on BA and as accurate as it is on a mech.  If anything, realistically the BA medium laser would be heavier without the hard vee mount cause of extra gyro stabilizers, or else youd have to deploy the laser like an infantry to the ground.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Mech equipment is heavily reinforced so that it can survive the mech faceplanting in combat.

[Daryk]

Mediums are as mobile as Lights, right?  And they have more weight to work with...

[DaevaHuG0]

You get 100kg more to work with, assuming jump 3 walk 1, in exchange for 2x the troop bay tonnage requirements. 155kg for walk 3 jump 0.

[Daryk]

100 kg is rather a lot for BA...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You get 100kg more to work with, assuming jump 3 walk 1, in exchange for 2x the troop bay tonnage requirements. 155kg for walk 3 jump 0.

Well, most infantry bays are built around medium squad size requirements anyway- the Maxim is the only BA hauler I can think of with less than a four ton bay.  And on top of that, BA takes up one ton per trooper regardless of suit size in Total Warfare rules.

[Church14]

In universe, there’s good reasons to design light over medium BA. Resource costs, transport weights, etc.

But as a unit on table, unless you use TacOps BA weights, there’s not really a difference between the light and medium suits save battle values. 

[Colt Ward]

In universe, there’s good reasons to design light over medium BA. Resource costs, transport weights, etc.

But as a unit on table, unless you use TacOps BA weights, there’s not really a difference between the light and medium suits save battle values.

No, the qualitative difference supports medium BA.

MELee BA can match the movement of light BA and survive hits that would kill lights to keep them in the fight.  They are also able to bring meaningful anti-mech firepower compared to lights requiring a squad weapon to get the firepower.

[DevianID]

No, the qualitative difference supports medium BA.

MELee BA can match the movement of light BA and survive hits that would kill lights to keep them in the fight.  They are also able to bring meaningful anti-mech firepower compared to lights requiring a squad weapon to get the firepower.

Yeah, but isnt the role of light BA to NOT bring anti-mech firepower?  Like, in both the lore and tabletop, when I want a light battlearmor design, I want it to have token anti-infantry guns and eyeballs for spotting, with either speed or stealth or both to spot/scout for a long time without ever firing a shot.  Anything more then that is pretty wasteful for the job I want light BA to do, either in-lore for resources or in-game in BV.

[Charistoph]

Light BA can also do Anti-Mech Attacks, too.  Just saying.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

[Charistoph]

Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

Probably be more effective than 4-5 submachine guns.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yes, but when light BA are attacking mechs it's an indication that things have already gone to hell.

[Sabelkatten]

Light BA can still mount 6 armor. Make it some special type (stealth, reflec, reactive) and you can match a medium BA in toughness as long as you chose your target carefully.

[Charistoph]

Yes, but when light BA are attacking mechs it's an indication that things have already gone to hell.

Not necessarily.  It could be just because the opportunity presented itself, i.e. the Mech is between their drop off point and their target, and they can't reach their true target before then.

[Colt Ward]

If I am playing a BV match, I will use Kage and especially GDL Scout to make leg attacks.  Their BV for 4 hex movement is really low, the best "deal" on that sort of capability.

If I am wargaming . . . well, those two type squads would get used up really quick and are more useful for recon, both tactical and strategic.

Btw the satchel charge comment?  IIRC BOTH Kage (TF Serpent) and GDL Scout (Dying Time) are fluffed as using satchel charges against mechs.

[DevianID]

If I am playing a BV match, I will use Kage and especially GDL Scout to make leg attacks.  Their BV for 4 hex movement is really low, the best "deal" on that sort of capability.

If I am wargaming . . . well, those two type squads would get used up really quick and are more useful for recon, both tactical and strategic.

Btw the satchel charge comment?  IIRC BOTH Kage (TF Serpent) and GDL Scout (Dying Time) are fluffed as using satchel charges against mechs.

While I remember reading the book with GDL BA making satchel charge attacks with Alex Carlyle, the armor itself doesnt actually say it carries satchel charges or anything.  Like, you can specify your BA has a submachine gun or autorifle or what not, but there is no satchel charge option or equipment I have ever been able to find for them, which is odd cause they track weight by kilogram.  Just which hand option to 'rip and tear' with have rules weight.

[Sabelkatten]

PA(L) with armored gloves do the same damage as medium BA with heavy battle claws in a leg attack. So the type of manipulator only matters when you get to the extremes (vibro or magnetic).

My headcanon is that any BA capable of leg attacks has the capacity to carry a couple of satchel charges, the weight being included in any sacrifices you have to make to get the manipulators.

[Church14]

This strikes me as a magic satchel moment. There's nothing about them having satchel charges, but if they make a leg attack you shouldn't worry because they'll have a satchel charge available. It came from somewhere, don't think too hard.

And I remember the DEST Kage suit (Major Michael Ryan) toasting a Timber Wolf knee joint via satchel charge. He'd just watched a large laser turn a member of his squad into past tense.

Which, in game, I'd have considered that Kage to be a massive win for the investment. TAG support for arrow IV to kill a Hellbringer, then the leg attack golden BB'd a Timber Wolf leg? Hell of a performance.

[Colt Ward]

While I remember reading the book with GDL BA making satchel charge attacks with Alex Carlyle, the armor itself doesnt actually say it carries satchel charges or anything.  Like, you can specify your BA has a submachine gun or autorifle or what not, but there is no satchel charge option or equipment I have ever been able to find for them, which is odd cause they track weight by kilogram.  Just which hand option to 'rip and tear' with have rules weight.

Dying Time is on Hesperus while Alex is in the Royal Guards as a hostage to GDL following orders.  Two squads of GDL Scouts go out to find and disrupt Skye forces in their laager, get shot up too.

Further, leg attacks are not in fiction as ripping usually.  They can also be getting at the joint and firing the suit's weapons past the armor into the moving parts.

I also figure satchel charges would be more RPG scale.

[Church14]

Leg attacks being a flat 4 damage by default makes it weird to rationalize as a single thing.

Myomer Booster increases damage per suit, which implies ripping chunks free. Vibro claws increasing by 1 per claw regardless of number of suits makes it seem like it's ripping. But then yeah, basic manipulators can do 4, and so do heavy battle claws.

So yeah, leg attacks are "something" happening to the mech legs. BA suits jamming guns in weak spots, claws ripping off armor, satchel charges, whatever

[DevianID]

Im not opposed to the 'magic satchel charge' as an explanation.  But, in construction rules, is there any advantage given to the battle claw?  My big issue is that the battle claw costs more, weighs more, and does nothing extra.  At least if the satchel charge was a KG weighted item the armored glove needed to 'add' to make leg attacks, it would counter the 15kg the battle claw adds...

15kg which, if I understand right, does nothing whatsoever?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I believe that the claws only provide an advantage in RPG rules.

[idea weenie]

PA(L) with armored gloves do the same damage as medium BA with heavy battle claws in a leg attack. So the type of manipulator only matters when you get to the extremes (vibro or magnetic).

My headcanon is that any BA capable of leg attacks has the capacity to carry a couple of satchel charges, the weight being included in any sacrifices you have to make to get the manipulators.

Make these Satchel Charge attacks similar to the Elemental BA's SRM attacks?  I.e. the Clan Elemental BA squad only has two SRM attacks, so there would be a similar limit for satchel attacks.

[DevianID]

Yeah a limit to how many leg attacks I would be fine with.  As it is, my go to move for resgate and Nighthawk is to ignore personal weapons that cost BV and make leg attacks cause they are 'free'.  A limit to how many free leg attacks those armored glove BA can make would definately help balance the 'low/zero' cost of leg attacks for PA(L).

[Church14]

Im not opposed to the 'magic satchel charge' as an explanation.  But, in construction rules, is there any advantage given to the battle claw?  My big issue is that the battle claw costs more, weighs more, and does nothing extra.  At least if the satchel charge was a KG weighted item the armored glove needed to 'add' to make leg attacks, it would counter the 15kg the battle claw adds...

15kg which, if I understand right, does nothing whatsoever?

I think the main point to it is you are mechanized with just one battle claw. Otherwise… I’d have to dig