Troopers: Elementals & those who aren't

[Wolf72]

must be a BA type of day ... for some reason this question popped up in my brain 1/2 thru the school day.

I'm pretty sure I've read something about this somewhere, god knows when, but most likely here.

Anyway:

Is there any primary difference or benefit of using Elementals vs a non-elemental trooper.  Other than the type of BA suit they use, is there a real difference on the table top?

Even as far as PBI transports go, there is no accounting for elemental troopers and non-elemental troopers, right?

I can imagine at the RPG level, there might be a huge (no pun intended) difference.

[FedRatCowboy]

Not really. The suit is more important than who or what is inside it.

[AlphaMirage]

Not really. The suit is more important than who or what is inside it.

Correct, at the TW level it doesn't matter, presumably all Armored Infantry are similar in build. You only get differences when you compare more RPG esque elements

[Charistoph]

Skill and Training would be another point.

Regarding transport, if you're talking about a Point of 25 Armor-less fleshy elementals vs 25 freeborn Infantry, yeah, no difference.  At least at Total Warfare's or Alpha Strike's level, as AlphaMirage said.

[Daryk]

At the AToW level, it's kind of hilarious.  IS BA pilots require STR 6 and BOD 5, while clanners need BOD 5, DEX 3, RFL 3 and WIL 4 (and the Phenotype, of course).

[Wolf72]

assuming their phenotype covers that STR requirement.

thanks for the answers all, that scratch has been itched.

Feel free to this thread slowly degrade.

[Daryk]

The Phenotype provides +2 STR, so it's possible to have less than 6.  It also imposes -1 DEX, so you have to invest at least 400 XP in that (and if you're smart, 500 XP so you don't take a penalty to your core skills).

[DevianID]

The elementals are also supposed to have better 'sealing'/harjel, and the trooper themselves are supposed to be better in melee combat too, seeing as all the trials they do versus other branches default to hand to hand when the elemental has the choice, which is described as their forte.  I dislike the 'arnold/strongman' build elemental and prefer the 'basketball player' build, tall, much more athletic, and explosively fast with longer endurance, instead of able to pick up heavy things.  Kareem Abdul-Jabar running back and forth for an hour+ seems more useful in a power armor suit.  Like, the 'mountain' Hafthor started as a basketball player, 231 lbs, before powerlifting and bulking to 400+ lbs 6-8 years later.  The faster, longer endurance basketball version seems better suited to soldiering then the much stronger and heavier powerlifter version.  Combined with how YOUNG clan soldiers are, and I dont see them as power lifters. Edit: Tall Boxers basically instead of powerlifters.

Sadly, melee weapons in the RPG->TW conversion lose the big thing they do, with the users strength mattering for damage.  So an elemental phenotype soldier in the RPG does more melee damage, as the suit enhances, not overwrites the users base strength.  In TW, infantry melee doesnt work like that, so an elemental does 4 damage with a leg attack and an IS trooper in captured clan suits also does 4 damage, despite this not being the case with melee in the RPG.

[Wrangler]

At least for RPG or tabletop feel, the BattleTroops rules (despite being very dated at this point) provided a more substantial feel for troops in the battlefield. Battle armor felt satisfyingly powerful in their element, well giving up balance between an armored regular infantry versus other elements including Battlemechs.  At admittedly a couple tweets were required to make the battle armor a little more usable, like adding us small AP weapon to the inner sphere standard battle armor so wasn't completely vulnerable to regular troops something can only fire one base weapon or it's missile pack.

I don't remember clearly, but I believe Clan trooper magnifies strength of a battle armors in combat.

[Sabelkatten]

The leg attack damage is, AFAIK, all about the satchel charges. So strength shouldn't matter at all.

Regarding the OP; IIRC the original explanation why IS BA had 9 rather than 10 armor was that the troopers were less tough (not that there was less armor). Personally I kind of like that so I'd go with a non-elemental using a clan BA reducing its armor value by one. But then I don't accept that you can put clan armor on an IS chassis either...

[Wolf72]

The leg attack damage is, AFAIK, all about the satchel charges. So strength shouldn't matter at all.

Regarding the OP; IIRC the original explanation why IS BA had 9 rather than 10 armor was that the troopers were less tough (not that there was less armor). Personally I kind of like that so I'd go with a non-elemental using a clan BA reducing its armor value by one. But then I don't accept that you can put clan armor on an IS chassis either...

Right, I recall something like that too.  Been overwritten with BA construction as a facet of armor points.  At least that's what I think it was. 

The basic answer is in TW there is no difference.  It's a fluff thing, other than the base gunnery skill, Elementals have a better score iirc ...

fyi thread not dying slowly just yet.

[DevianID]

The leg attack damage is, AFAIK, all about the satchel charges. So strength shouldn't matter at all.

Battle armor rip and tear, they dont have satchel charges.  Im not saying they couldnt or dont ever use them, but its not a bit of gear you equip and weight budget for, unlike the claws that allow you to make leg attacks.  And while battleclaws dont deal extra leg attack damage, vibro does, and the elemental does the same damage as an IS troop with it.  Further, all melee weapons would deal more damage wielded by BA then the same weapon used by infantry not in BA, but the infantry rules are borked.

Also, rules wise IS BA structure is lighter, while clan structure lets you carry backpack missiles and still jump.  So, on units that dont use backpack launchers, the clan suit is heavier for no advantage or explanation.  The sealing or toughness or whatever that makes the clan suit heavier has no effect, so min-maxed BA use IS structure with clan everything else as long as they dont carry backpack weapons.

[Wolf72]

also, other than battle/vibro claws BA can't use infantry melee weapons in TW.  Fluff wise, I'd really like to seem my PA(L) carry a hefty melee weapon or even a stun staff (wait, am I conflating IPs?) for crowd control.

[glitterboy2098]

The elementals are also supposed to have better 'sealing'/harjel

which represents the different masses for the structure of the BA when designing suits. for example, a medium clan BA structure is 250 kg, while an IS BA of the same weight only requires 175kg for its structure. one of the reasons that some of the mixed tech suits we started getting in the Republic, dark age, and ilclan eras can be no nasty, since they combine the lighter IS structure, but also uses the lighter and harder hitting clan weapons.

[DevianID]

which represents the different masses for the structure of the BA when designing suits. for example, a medium clan BA structure is 250 kg, while an IS BA of the same weight only requires 175kg for its structure. one of the reasons that some of the mixed tech suits we started getting in the Republic, dark age, and ilclan eras can be no nasty, since they combine the lighter IS structure, but also uses the lighter and harder hitting clan weapons.

Yeah I mention that, but my point is that the 'sealing' that the clan suits pay more weight for, doesnt do anything.  The only thing different between them is that clan suits dont slow down with missile packs.  The sealing we are told is there, but I cant find any rule or mention of it applying in the game.

[Vehrec]

What kind of costs do you pay for elementals though?  How many more ration-packs per day do you have to feed those high-maintenance giants?  Do they handle hot weather better or worse than normal people?  Do their joints suffer from wear and tear faster than a normal person's?  How about their long-term cardiovascular health without constant Scientist upkeep and treatment?

[Daryk]

All good questions!

[DevianID]

What kind of costs do you pay for elementals though?  How many more ration-packs per day do you have to feed those high-maintenance giants?  Do they handle hot weather better or worse than normal people?  Do their joints suffer from wear and tear faster than a normal person's?  How about their long-term cardiovascular health without constant Scientist upkeep and treatment?

The differemce with those variables, and the structure and sealing I mentioned, is the the structure costs already exist in game, and we have rules for environmental sealing and breach rules.  They are just absent in elementals.  So it's all in game already things.

Rations, age limits, and failure rates for upkeep are all interesting things, but unlike structure weights and sealing rules, rations/age arnt in the game, so mentioning those as a rebuttal to clan suit structure and missing sealing capabilities as hard game terms doesnt make sense.

[Daryk]

Age is a factor for AToW, but not TW.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah I mention that, but my point is that the 'sealing' that the clan suits pay more weight for, doesnt do anything.  The only thing different between them is that clan suits dont slow down with missile packs.  The sealing we are told is there, but I cant find any rule or mention of it applying in the game.

Rules for BA harjel only appear in the RPG-scale.  The system doesn't do anything at Total Warfare scale, unfortunately.

[idea weenie]

Rules for BA harjel only appear in the RPG-scale.  The system doesn't do anything at Total Warfare scale, unfortunately.

Are there rules where Harjel-equipped troops are better when trying to survive in toxic/vacuum/underwater environments?

As to the difference at RPG-scale, IIRC the attacking Ghost Bears were challenged by the defending Rasalhaguians to a rugby game.  So the Ghost Bears sent a team of Elementals to play rugby.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Are there rules where Harjel-equipped troops are better when trying to survive in toxic/vacuum/underwater environments?

Not that I'm aware of.  All BA are considered sealed against the environment as far as I know.  It's just a matter of how long the life support lasts.

As to the difference at RPG-scale, IIRC the attacking Ghost Bears were challenged by the defending Rasalhaguians to a rugby game.  So the Ghost Bears sent a team of Elementals to play rugby.

American football, actually.

[ANS Kamas P81]

American football, actually.

IIRC the final score was 77-3.

[Wolf72]

IIRC the final score was 77-3.

The RD players earned much respect for their one field goal too.

[beachhead1985]

I think the rules are fairly firm in stating that there is no difference, with the Elementals even suffering in many rule sets.

This isn't consistent with the MechWarrior Phenotype/Clan Trueborns actually performing better under the rules than Spheroids with their higher P/G skills for experience-levels...But I'm not certain it's *meant* to be either.

We know from fluff that the "pilot" phenotype is actually a failure and Clan pilots perform the same or worse-than their Spheroid counterparts.

We also know that Elementals were not *originally* designed as warriors; but as brute labour. We're lucky they aren't dumber in ATOW as well. While they certainly *could-have* been tweaked later-on to better-conform to what became their signature weapons system, I'm not aware of anything in the fluff to support this, aside from some indications that not every Clan's Elementals are created equal.

While I think it would be cooler if there was *some-kind* of perk, the rules seem to be consistent in stating there isn't. This in-turn is generally inconsisten with the rather far-fetched fluff that nonetheless *CLEARLY* states that Elemental suits are fairly easily quickly adapted, somehow, to be used by smaller and even *much-smaller* statured individuals.

[Charistoph]

I think it mostly has to do with a case of perspectives.

As strong as an Elemental could get, they're not going to be pulling Armor off of a Tank or 'Mech with their bare hands, and they won't be tanking a Small Laser hit as if it was nothing.

[Paul]

Yeah when it comes to lugging around 1,000 kg of gear, it doesn't really matter if you benchpress 200kg or 400kg. Either way the suit needs to do most of the work for you. Likely has benefits on the endurance end, something thd board game doesn't track.

[beachhead1985]

I think it mostly has to do with a case of perspectives.

As strong as an Elemental could get, they're not going to be pulling Armor off of a Tank or 'Mech with their bare hands, and they won't be tanking a Small Laser hit as if it was nothing.

But yet the rules are clear enough that a large build and physical strength are somehow beneficial-enough to operation of powered armour to make minimum stats part of the RPG-rules.

I really wonder about that for the examples that look more like you sit in them, however.

[Charistoph]

But yet the rules are clear enough that a large build and physical strength are somehow beneficial-enough to operation of powered armour to make minimum stats part of the RPG-rules.

I really wonder about that for the examples that look more like you sit in them, however.

Just saying that the personal scale of RPG-scale rulesets like Mechwarrior, Time of War, and Destiny is incredibly out of scale with the far more abstract scale of Total Warfare or Alpha Strike.

[AlphaMirage]

I think it's actually the opposite you need to be strong to withdraw serving in a power suit. It doesn't need your strength but the impact on your body is intense. We are talking about strength that would otherwise be fatal to the operator (Iron Man 2 and Hammer co style)