Troopers: Elementals & those who aren't

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And despite that, it's canon that Kai Allard-Liao, who was something like 100 lbs soaking wet, was able to handle an Elemental suit just fine once they stuck some extenders in the arms and legs for him.

[AlphaMirage]

Yeah but he wasn't hit with an AC-10 in it

[Daryk]

Good point!

[DevianID]

And to bring it back, while we are told elementals are better infantry, and clan BA pays more for structure because of that 'something', it has no game rule, only extra structure weight.  That is a huge red flag to me.  Especially since they started using inner sphere structure on otherwise clan designs to min-max battle armor with zero drawback.  Like... the clan more advanced elemental+structure is just worse in the tech manual on those designs cause the weight is higher, tech level higher, but no justification.  There should be SOMETHING, even if its an SPA or design quirk, to give a reason the clans are paying more KG in the actual game of total warfare for no benefit--doubly so because the lore mentions elementals and elemental armor as being stronger/better sealed.

This also applies to elemental-phenotype conventional infantry.  They state in the lore how good these soldiers are even out of their armor, with many natural advantages, but its not even a box to check in the tabletop game as far as I see.  I dont even thing the strat ops/campaign ops recovery/healing rules get a nod for making elementals easier to heal/recover/check for survivors.

[Charistoph]

Again, perspective is needed. 

What would Harjel do in a Total Warfare or Alpha Strike based game?

What would half a meter in height and an extra 30-50 kilos in bone and muscle mass do in a Total Warfare or Alpha Strike based game?

Harjel would only see an affect in situations where you're calling on Campaign Operations or RPG rules when the soldier needs to find out if they died or are healed after the scenario has been completed.  Campaign Operations gives a -2 for Clan Battle Armor to see if the Trooper is Mostly Dead or Truly Dead (p.198).  I don't have the RPG books, so I can't check them.

[beachhead1985]

And to bring it back, while we are told elementals are better infantry, and clan BA pays more for structure because of that 'something', it has no game rule, only extra structure weight.  That is a huge red flag to me.  Especially since they started using inner sphere structure on otherwise clan designs to min-max battle armor with zero drawback.  Like... the clan more advanced elemental+structure is just worse in the tech manual on those designs cause the weight is higher, tech level higher, but no justification.  There should be SOMETHING, even if its an SPA or design quirk, to give a reason the clans are paying more KG in the actual game of total warfare for no benefit--doubly so because the lore mentions elementals and elemental armor as being stronger/better sealed.

This also applies to elemental-phenotype conventional infantry.  They state in the lore how good these soldiers are even out of their armor, with many natural advantages, but its not even a box to check in the tabletop game as far as I see.  I dont even thing the strat ops/campaign ops recovery/healing rules get a nod for making elementals easier to heal/recover/check for survivors.

That "Something" is the Harjel. Absent in IS designs.

Again, perspective is needed. 

What would Harjel do in a Total Warfare or Alpha Strike based game?

What would half a meter in height and an extra 30-50 kilos in bone and muscle mass do in a Total Warfare or Alpha Strike based game?

Harjel would only see an affect in situations where you're calling on Campaign Operations or RPG rules when the soldier needs to find out if they died or are healed after the scenario has been completed.  Campaign Operations gives a -2 for Clan Battle Armor to see if the Trooper is Mostly Dead or Truly Dead (p.198).  I don't have the RPG books, so I can't check them.

You could make a house rule for it easily in-line with Clan MechWarriors.

Elemental Infantry get 1 better gunnery/Infantry combat skill and ignore the first two encumbrance.

Elemental BA get +1 MP (ground) +1 in hand to hand and 1 better to their gunnery skill.

Now, we've never had that before; so it seems a little wild. But if it was always that way, you'd never question it, because it's in-line with Clan Trueborn MechWarriors having 1 better P/G for their experience level than IS Pilots.

[Wolf72]

Again, perspective is needed. 

...

...  Campaign Operations gives a -2 for Clan Battle Armor to see if the Trooper is Mostly Dead or Truly Dead (p.198).  ...

Well, that is something at least.

brain-fart.  Do Clan BA/Elementals have a better starting gunnery than IS BA?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Usually yes.  At least on the tabletop scale they typically start at 3/4, the same as mechwarriors.

[beachhead1985]

Usually yes.  At least on the tabletop scale they typically start at 3/4, the same as mechwarriors.

I'd missed that completely!

@Wolf72, there is your benefit to using Elementals.

[Wolf72]

yup.  paid in BV. (well, everything would be paid in BV somehow)

[Charistoph]

Elemental Infantry get 1 better gunnery/Infantry combat skill and ignore the first two encumbrance.

Neither of which are aspects of Total Warfare or Alpha Strike game play.  You have Gunnery & Anti-Mech or Skill.

Elemental BA get +1 MP (ground) +1 in hand to hand and 1 better to their gunnery skill.

You're saying they can run twice as fast?

HtH is not a TW or AS Skill.

[beachhead1985]

Neither of which are aspects of Total Warfare or Alpha Strike game play.  You have Gunnery & Anti-Mech or Skill.

You're saying they can run twice as fast?

HtH is not a TW or AS Skill.

Going to level with you; couldn't recall what it was called for infantry when I wrote that; but I meant Gunnery and Anti-Mech. Just looking for some way to represent that they can use their suit better. But, as seen above, it's already rolled into their basic BV.

I'm actually saying they could get +1 MP, so a suit that moves 2 or 3 already in ground movement wouldn't double, they'd get +1. Reasonable that extra muscle comes in somewhere.

[Hellraiser]

Is there any primary difference or benefit of using Elementals vs a non-elemental trooper.  Other than the type of BA suit they use, is there a real difference on the table top?

Even as far as PBI transports go, there is no accounting for elemental troopers and non-elemental troopers, right?

IIRC, There is ONE rule set where you get a difference outside of RPG elements.


The old Boarding Operations converting to "Marine Points" gave you 2 "MP" for each Elemental v/s 1 "MP" for a Human.

You got more/less MP based on class (tech v/s grunt v/s 0G-Marine) &  obviously weapons/armor/Battle Armor etc etc gave you even more MP.

But at the base figure, from "Campaign Ops?" IIRC you did get a 2-1 advantage for Elemental v/s Non-Elemental phenotypes.
EDIT:  Combat Operations   Correcting Typo


IIRC, you could also use those same rules/charts for large scale building clearing, like say a Castle Brian/Fortress instead of playing out every single room by room at the RPG or Hex by Hex at the TW scale.
(Or maybe that was just my impression, but essentially it was a large scale "building sweep & clear" fight with the total from 1 side v/s the total from the other side & then some dice/charts to compare)

I really liked those charts for streamlining a massive infantry engagement into a few rolls.

[beachhead1985]

IIRC, There is ONE rule set where you get a difference outside of RPG elements.


The old Boarding Operations converting to "Marine Points" gave you 2 "MP" for each Elemental v/s 1 "MP" for a Human.

You got more/less MP based on class (tech v/s grunt v/s 0G-Marine) &  obviously weapons/armor/Battle Armor etc etc gave you even more MP.

But at the base figure, from "Campaign Ops?" IIRC you did get a 2-1 advantage for Elemental v/s Non-Elemental phenotypes.


IIRC, you could also use those same rules/charts for large scale building clearing, like say a Castle Brian/Fortress instead of playing out every single room by room at the RPG or Hex by Hex at the TW scale.
(Or maybe that was just my impression, but essentially it was a large scale "building sweep & clear" fight with the total from 1 side v/s the total from the other side & then some dice/charts to compare)

I really liked those charts for streamlining a massive infantry engagement into a few rolls.

That's pretty cool, IMO.

[Hellraiser]

That's pretty cool, IMO.

Yeah, I always liked that little system for being able to play out boarding a "Largecraft", but also major building complex.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I always liked that little system for being able to play out boarding a "Largecraft", but also major building complex.

Absolutely, I used it for clearing bunker complexes and fortified positions- basically places mechs could not reach and in the case of bunker complexes, both sides could keep pouring infantry & BA into the entrance or entrances.  The mechs and armor fight over the entrance, each trying to clear the other side out so they can keep running APCs into the area for troops to dismount and enter the complex.

Think the FCCW battle on New Syrtis where the Loyalist Infiltrator Mk IIs airdropped onto the Cave's entrance and shortly found themselves in a battle with Cavalier defenders.