Mines and Movement Phase PSRs Question

[Mechman08]

I was going over the minefield rules, and while the odds of this coming up seem pretty low, an edge case came to mind that I’d like to get clarified.

Here’s the mental test case:
Let’s start with a hypothetical Mad Cat Prime, starting in Hex 0.  All terrain is Clear and at Level 0.  The Mad Cat is on its way to Hex 5.  The intervening Hexes, 1 thru 4, have been designated with fresh BSP Minefields, in sequence: Light, Light, Medium, Medium.

The following assumptions are in play:  Our Mad Cat driver is unlucky enough that his opponent always succeeds when rolling against the minefield TN.  However, he is also lucky enough that the damage distribution and crit rolls never cost him a leg or an actuator, and he makes all his PSRs.

What I want to check is when, and how many, PSRs should the Mad Cat be making as it moves from Hex 0 to 5.

BMM p.55, PSR Timing states:

Movement Phase: Piloting Skill Rolls required due to a movement action (entering water, trying to stand up, entering rubble, and so on) are made immediately following the action. As such, if a PSR is made to enter a hex, and the PSR fails, the ’Mech falls in the hex it entered. Multiple rolls may be required during movement. For example, if a ’Mech wants to move through three hexes of Depth 1 water, the player must make a PSR when the ’Mech enters each water hex. If a PSR is required in the Movement Phase due to weapon attacks (possibly due to attacks by hidden ’Mechs; see p. 82), the roll is also made immediately.

My read then is that the Mad Cat faces three PSRs, each at +1.

• Enters Hex 1, takes 10 damage.
• Enters Hex 2, takes 10 damage (totaling 20 for the phase).  PSR at +1.
• Enters Hex 3, takes 20 damage.  Since the first instance of “20+ points in one phase” was resolved immediately, I think this effectively resets the effect; new instances of 20+ damage should risk a fall.  PSR at +1.
• Enters Hex 4, takes 20 damage.  Again, PSR at +1.

What do y’all think?

[Charistoph]

Nope, just one PSR.  Unless he's stopping in the mined hex till the next Turn, it's still the same Phase.  This isn't a case of a PSR caused by Movement, but by Damage.

Even if you're playing with the Advanced Rule that adds a +1 for every 20 Damage you take, it's still 1 PSR, just at +3, just when he stops moving in Hex 5.

Another way to put it is if you have 2 Centurions then 2 Hunchbacks hitting you, you don't take PSRs as soon as you take 20 points of Damage.  It's just the 1 PSR.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, you add up the total damage dealt during a phase, then make a PSR check if it meets or beats the 20 point mark.

[Mechman08]

Okay, so I think I agree with the outcome of my test case only being one PSR.  However, I still disagree hard about the timing being the end of the Mad Cat’s movement.  I think it should be made when the Mad Cat is hit by the mines in Hex 2.  Please allow me to explain.

Let’s start with the two Centurions, two Hunchbacks situation.  What Charistoph outlined is what would happen if we were dealing with these Mechs shooting the Mad Cat during the Weapon Attack Phase.  However, the mines in Test Case 1 are detonating in the Movement Phase.  There’s only a few ways I can think of for weapon damage to occur in the Movement Phase: 1) Point Blank Shots from Hidden Units, 2) Preemptive special abilities like Combat Intuition, and 3) (I would argue) stepping on mines.  So I want to consider what would happen if this lance of IS mechs were Hidden Units.  I’m going to call the original test case Test Case 1, this one Test Case 2.

So for Test Case 2, we again have a Mad Cat moving from Hex 0 to Hex 5.  Each of the IS Mechs is hidden in a hex adjacent to, but not in, the Mad Cat’s path such that it can make a Point Blank Shot (BMM p.82) as the Clan Mech passes.  So in Hex 1, it will be Point Blanked by a Centurion, Hex 2 another Centurion, Hex 3 a Hunchback, and so on.  Let’s say each Centurion will get in 15 points of damage (AC10 and ML) and each Hunchback 33 damage (AC20, 2x ML, SL). Again, let’s assume the Mad Cat is lucky enough to avoid critical damage and makes any PSRs.

The damage inflicted by the IS Mechs is occurring in the Movement Phase, and the BMM section I quoted in my first post explicitly states that:

“If a PSR is required in the Movement Phase due to weapon attacks (possibly due to attacks by hidden ’Mechs; see p. 82), the roll is also made immediately.”

That’s a pretty flat statement that you don’t hold the PSR to the end of the Movement Phase.  It’s checked now so you can determine if the planned movement can continue, or if the incoming damage interrupts the movement.

Therefore, when the Mad Cat enters Hex 2 and takes the Point Blank from the second Centurion, bringing the total damage inflicted that Movement phase up to 30, it must make a PSR before it can continue on to Hex 3.  If it makes that check, it won’t have to repeat a PSR for going over 20+ damage in the phase as the Hunchbacks get their turns.

Now, yes, this quoted section of the BMM only explicitly mentions Hidden Mechs.  I’ve looked up and down the BMM, TW, and TO books for direct instructions on dealing with mine damage, and not found it.  However, I think the parallel between a SURPRISE! shooting-you-now and SURPRISE! stepped-on-a-mine is pretty obvious.  As such, I want to argue strongly that in Test Case 1, the PSR for 20+ damage would also have to be made in Hex 2.

[Cannonshop]

I'd say it would make more sense to require a separate PSR in each mined hex, as they pass through it.  That is, after all, how a minefield in real world theory works-you set it off or you don't-at least, passive minefields like antitank mines, proximity fused mines, basically anything that isn't command detonated.

but then, that might decrease from the 'main characterness' of the REAL TW units.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Doing a PSR every step would badly slow down the game.  Minefields are already annoying enough as it is, we don't need rules that make them worse.

[Cannonshop]

Doing a PSR every step would badly slow down the game.  Minefields are already annoying enough as it is, we don't need rules that make them worse.

That...is kind of why they're deployed...at least, when they're used in the real world.  To slow down an enemy's advance and control the terrain.  The whole point of minefields isn't to inflict casualties by directly defeating an enemy, it's to block, control, or slow his movement so you can use other weapons, that have sights  or sensors and range, to destroy him.

The whole reason for the existence of landmines, or sea mines, is to cost the enemy time and hamper their movement-it's literally the whole reason they exist, and it's the whole and entire reason modern armies have systems like MCLIC to clear minefields.  Simplifying to what amounts to a single inaccurate artillery barrage kind of misses the entire point of even having them exist in the game.

[Church14]

Which, in game, is represented by players getting nervous and taking the long way around. Their advance is now slowed and takes less optimal pathing.

There’s still a desire for mines as a gameplay feature to not slow the gameplay down.

But my question now is what happens if the unluckiest mad cat blows a foot actuator to the first minefield. I would assume there’s the PSR from that right away in case the damage makes it fall over?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think that that check is made in the hex it occurred in.

[Charistoph]

But my question now is what happens if the unluckiest mad cat blows a foot actuator to the first minefield. I would assume there’s the PSR from that right away in case the damage makes it fall over?

I think in this case, it is done in the hex it happens.

[Mechman08]

I had a few chuckles while writing up the Test Cases from imagining the Mad Cat stumbling from mine to mine like Wile E. Coyote. 

[Church14]

I had a few chuckles while writing up the Test Cases from imagining the Mad Cat stumbling from mine to mine like Wile E. Coyote. 

With ten damage mines, probably looks more like a parent cursing as they step on their kids’ legos in a dark hallway.