Weapon Attack Phase PSRs

[Warlock CPLT-C1]

I had a debate with someone last night about this and I just needed clarification. If you were to receive critical damage to 2 leg locations (say foot and upper actuator) and also take 20+ damage all in the same weapon attack phase, how many PSRs would that be? 3 PSRs (one for each event), 2 PSRs (one for the leg crits and one for the 20+ dmg) or just 1 PSR for all those events in one phase?

[FlyingScoots]

You total up all the modifiers for all PSR-inducing events (unless told otherwise in specific PSR triggers, such as one for firing a Heavy Gauss rifle after moving), and then roll a PSR at the final target number for each trigger. An extensive example is available in TW on page 61, explaining this.

In that example, a mech is kicked twice in the physical attack phase, losing a leg actuator, and taking over 20 damage: this results in the need of making four PSRs, two for kicks, one for destroyed actuator, and one from total damage suffered; all at a target of 9+ due to the combined modifiers from all the triggers.

So in your case you'd be making three PSRs at a combined modifier of +3 (+1 for each destroyed leg actuator, +1 for 20+ damage).

[Mechman08]

You might also find the content of this thread helpful, for when this kind of situation involves a hip actuator crit:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,86265.msg2036476.html#msg2036476

[Charistoph]

In that example, a mech is kicked twice in the physical attack phase, losing a leg actuator, and taking over 20 damage: this results in the need of making four PSRs, two for kicks, one for destroyed actuator, and one from total damage suffered; all at a target of 9+ due to the combined modifiers from all the triggers.

Mostly correct, but the condition is "just having been Kicked", not one for each Kick.  Just like you don't take multiple PSRs for every 20 points of Damage.

I could be wrong on that, but I haven't seen a ruling saying otherwise.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You total up all the modifiers for all PSR-inducing events (unless told otherwise in specific PSR triggers, such as one for firing a Heavy Gauss rifle after moving), and then roll a PSR at the final target number for each trigger. An extensive example is available in TW on page 61, explaining this.

In that example, a mech is kicked twice in the physical attack phase, losing a leg actuator, and taking over 20 damage: this results in the need of making four PSRs, two for kicks, one for destroyed actuator, and one from total damage suffered; all at a target of 9+ due to the combined modifiers from all the triggers.

Assuming you're starting from a piloting skill of 5, you'd only be making PSRs on a 7+ to stay standing.  Kicks don't impose a modifier to the PSR they impose.

[FlyingScoots]

Mostly correct, but the condition is "just having been Kicked", not one for each Kick.  Just like you don't take multiple PSRs for every 20 points of Damage.

I could be wrong on that, but I haven't seen a ruling saying otherwise.

The very example I am referring to in TW61 has you rolling PSR from each kick:

During the Physical Attack Phase, the same BattleMech
is kicked in the leg by two other ’Mechs, losing another
actuator and taking 23 more points of damage. The player
must make four more Piloting Skill Rolls: two for getting
kicked twice, one for losing a leg actuator and one for the
23 points of damage. The modified Piloting Skill target
number for each of the four rolls is 9 [5 (Piloting Skill) +
2 (existing actuator damage) + 1 (another damaged leg
actuator) + 1 (20+ points of damage)].

Presumably, this is because taking multiple instances of 20 damage (i.e. 40, 60, etc), is still covered by the trigger phrased as "’Mech takes 20+ damage points in one phase"; thus, no matter how many multiples of 20 damage mech takes in the phase, it's still only one trigger activation for "20 or more [total] damage taken in one phase".
Kicking is phrased as "’Mech was kicked"; thus, each instance of the mech getting kicked is a separate trigger, as confirmed in the example Total Warfare provides.

Assuming you're starting from a piloting skill of 5, you'd only be making PSRs on a 7+ to stay standing.  Kicks don't impose a modifier to the PSR they impose.

Bad phrasing on my part. You do, however, in the example I am citing from the TW book, end up rolling 9+; +2 from pre-existing damage, +1 for losing one more actuator, +1 for 20+ damage.

[Charistoph]

The very example I am referring to in TW61 has you rolling PSR from each kick:

Presumably, this is because taking multiple instances of 20 damage (i.e. 40, 60, etc), is still covered by the trigger phrased as "’Mech takes 20+ damage points in one phase"; thus, no matter how many multiples of 20 damage mech takes in the phase, it's still only one trigger activation for "20 or more [total] damage taken in one phase".
Kicking is phrased as "’Mech was kicked"; thus, each instance of the mech getting kicked is a separate trigger, as confirmed in the example Total Warfare provides.

Sometimes examples are wrong.  The trigger is "was kicked" not, "per Kick".

Maybe this can be tossed up to Errata for future printing in both TW and BMM.

[Paul]

Sometimes examples are wrong. 

Not this time. Intent is # of PSRs = # of times you got kicked. Surrounded by 6 Wasps who all hit with kicks? 7 PSRs. 6 kicks, and 1 more for 20+ damage in a phase.

[Daryk]

That scenario is both nightmarish and hilarious!

[Charistoph]

That scenario is both nightmarish and hilarious!

That actually happened once during one of our Friday one-offs.  An Assault, I think a Battlemaster, was going up the edge, and got surrounded by an array of Blackjacks, such that it couldn't Move out.  4 Blackjacks just kept Kicking until the Assault was killed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I mean, if you're ever in a position of being surrounded like that, odds are that you're dead anyway.

[Daryk]

The Battlemaster couldn't manage to kill even one of them before falling apart?

[Charistoph]

The Battlemaster couldn't manage to kill even one of them before falling apart?

They have the same number of Medium Lasers, each, but have 4 sets of them (assuming BJ-1s, and not DBs, it's been a while). 

The Battlemaster can only Kick one, while all 4 could Kick it, assuming it was even Standing to be able to Kick from the concentrated fire.

And the Battlemaster wasn't fresh when it was surrounded, as it was halfway up the map.

By sheer volume, the Battlemaster was dead.  Even if he killed one, he couldn't escape them, as they have the same Ground Movement profile and can Jump.

[Daryk]

Ah, I see... nice kill box there.

[Hellraiser]

That is a really dumb scenario & the reason why my GM uses the "Edge of the World = Expanded Hex Row" running.

In our games because the BMer was "blocked in" the 3-hexes around each of the BJ's that were on the "Edge" would be open to continue to move.

It's a very nice compromise between "Edge = WALL" v/s "Rolling Maps" ways of treating things.

It stops mechs from being "cornered" AND also stops them from using the edge to escape back shots.

Hopefully the rest of the team enjoyed the BMer occupying twice it's BV & killed something from the other side.

[Hellraiser]

So in your case you'd be making three PSRs at a combined modifier of +3 (+1 for each destroyed leg actuator, +1 for 20+ damage).

Agreed.

critical damage to 2 leg locations (say foot and upper actuator) and also take 20+ damage all in the same weapon attack phase

3 Events @
PSR +1
PSR +1
PSR +1

Total = 3 Rolls at +3

[Paul]

That scenario is both nightmarish and hilarious!

I have done this many moons ago. Player unit faces an elite unit of Wasps. There are some scoffs. Until they get ambushed in a wooded area. Hitting the enemy proves almost impossible, and every turn, whoever moved first regardless of init is getting at least 5 Wasp kicks. Which hit almost every time. Sure it's just a +1 penalty. But 6 times? Every turn?

Players hired that unit in a later campaign.

[garhkal]

They have the same number of Medium Lasers, each, but have 4 sets of them (assuming BJ-1s, and not DBs, it's been a while). 

The Battlemaster can only Kick one, while all 4 could Kick it, assuming it was even Standing to be able to Kick from the concentrated fire.

And the Battlemaster wasn't fresh when it was surrounded, as it was halfway up the map.

By sheer volume, the Battlemaster was dead.  Even if he killed one, he couldn't escape them, as they have the same Ground Movement profile and can Jump.

Sounds like one of my first games back in 91..  Had iirc a stalker, that got surrounded by a quartet of stingers, who just Jumped..  I tried shooting them with the SRMS and mediums, but couldn't connect due to the TNS being 9+/  Their return shots (8 mls), hit me 3 of 8.  THEN 3 of 4 kicks hit.. 

[Charistoph]

That is a really dumb scenario & the reason why my GM uses the "Edge of the World = Expanded Hex Row" running.

This was early in the development of our group almost 4 years ago, before we had a lot of these shenanigans.  Between this situation and also simply being Pushed off, we've developed similar House Rules.