Alternative ammo in 3025

[Garydee]

We had infernos for SRMS and we have Flak for ACs. What else was available in this time period?

[AlphaMirage]

I believe tracers, smoke, and anti-infantry ammo were also available.

[Frabby]

Listen-Kill missiles.
Star League era LosTech ammunition (including "Starfire" Headhunter missiles)

[Daryk]

Did the Headhunters ever get canon stats?

[RifleMech]

For LRMs
Standard, Flare, Heat-Seeking, Incendiary, and Smoke.

For SRMs
Standard, Harpoon, Heat-Seeking, Smoke, Tear Gas SRMs, and Tandem Charge. The last were found in caches by the FedCom. That could apply to any SL era missile though.

For both,
Anti-TSM Missiles are available in 3026.

Did the Headhunters ever get canon stats?

I don't think Headhunters got canon stats. I don't think Hawk LRMs or Phoenix SRMs did either.

[nckestrel]

I don't think Headhunters got canon stats. I don't think Hawk LRMs or Phoenix SRMs did either.

The Crusader with Hawk LRMs and Phoenix SRMs became the CRD-1R and CRD-2R with Artemis and Streak launchers.

[Daryk]

That's two out of three confirmed with no stats, then... :/

[RifleMech]

The Crusader with Hawk LRMs and Phoenix SRMs became the CRD-1R and CRD-2R with Artemis and Streak launchers.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. The 3R wouldn't have used Artemis or Streak Ammo as it wasn't equipped with either of those systems.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Did the Headhunters ever get canon stats?

Are Headhunters even confirmed as something that actually existed as more than rumor?

[Daryk]

That's exactly my question.

[Frabby]

Are Headhunters even confirmed as something that actually existed as more than rumor?

Yes.
Headhunter missile as described in 25YoAF story Starfire

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It’s been a long time since I’ve read that story but I remember it as not actually confirming that Headhunters were actually a special munition type. It was in-universe assumptions by the characters with only circumstantial evidence.

[glitterboy2098]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. The 3R wouldn't have used Artemis or Streak Ammo as it wasn't equipped with either of those systems.

as per the fluff, the -1R and -2R became the -3R because of the lack of those particular systems leading to refits to conventional LRM and SRM launchers. (presumably a gradual process that also led to the loss of the ferro-fib and DHS)

[RifleMech]

as per the fluff, the -1R and -2R became the -3R because of the lack of those particular systems leading to refits to conventional LRM and SRM launchers. (presumably a gradual process that also led to the loss of the ferro-fib and DHS)

I did see the fluff in TRO:3075 and it still makes no sense. Saying the Crusader 3R a Succession War downgrade do to the loss of Artemis and Streak Missiles goes against canon. The 3R was introduced in 2752 and is a Star League Era design. Artemis and Streak won't be lost until 2855 and 2845. That's 103 years after the introduction of the Crusader 3R.

As the Terran Hegemony likes to keep the best for themselves, it's more likely that the 3R was intended for use by SLDF Regulars and for export to the Houses. Whether that's the case or not it still doesn't effect the Crusader 3R having to use standard missiles because they ran out of Hawk and Phoenix Missiles. Those missiles are mentioned directly after saying how potent the Longbow LRM and Harpoon SRM systems were and right before how standard missiles are effective enough. The only downgrade mentioned is in ammo type. The Longbow and Harpoon Launchers were firing Hawk and Phoenix missiles.

And while Artemis and Streak do improve accuracy, there's still the longer range Hawk and Phoenix missiles have.

[Hellraiser]

Listen-Kill missiles.
Star League era LosTech ammunition (including "Starfire" Headhunter missiles)

Not in 3025, Listen-Kill wasn't till 3039

Did the Headhunters ever get canon stats?

I believe some folks wanted them to be some sort of Punch Table.
I prefer the simpler answer from the fluff below.

I don't think Headhunters got canon stats. I don't think Hawk LRMs or Phoenix SRMs did either.

As noted already, they have simple answers in the fluff.
Waiting around for some more "alternative/special" ammo from the past that TPTB may or may not ever decide to create stats for doesn't seem likely.

The Crusader with Hawk LRMs and Phoenix SRMs became the CRD-1R and CRD-2R with Artemis and Streak launchers.

Agreed, simple & elegant way of connecting fluff & existing rules.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. The 3R wouldn't have used Artemis or Streak Ammo as it wasn't equipped with either of those systems.

The 3R fluff is talking about "early" ammo no longer available.
That early ammo is essentially the 2R w/ LRM-Artemis & SRM-Streaks.

The Longbow and Harpoon Launchers were firing Hawk and Phoenix missiles.

Why do you think that the 1R & 2R were not using Magna Longbow & Harpoon manufactured system?
They are a brand & model names, not some tech level, it's still fully capable of being Artemis & Streak respectively.

[RifleMech]

Waiting around for some more "alternative/special" ammo from the past that TPTB may or may not ever decide to create stats for doesn't seem likely.

I don't think it's likely either.

The 3R fluff is talking about "early" ammo no longer available.
That early ammo is essentially the 2R w/ LRM-Artemis & SRM-Streaks.

Why do you think that the 1R & 2R were not using Magna Longbow & Harpoon manufactured system?
They are a brand & model names, not some tech level, it's still fully capable of being Artemis & Streak respectively.

And as I said before, the 3R's fluff names the model of it's launchers. The fluff refers to them as the Longbow LRM and Harpoon SRM. On the next page under Armaments we see their full names; Magna Longbow-15 LRM Launchers and Harpoon-6 SRM Launchers. The fluff then says the original Phoenix LRM and Hawk SRMs had to be replaced with unguided missiles but were still effective. The launchers weren't replaced. Just the missiles. The fluff is saying these advanced missiles were fired from those launchers.

As the 3R isn't equipped with Artemis or Steak Launchers, it would not have been armed with those missile types. You can't run out of a missile you never used. Even claiming "original" ammo was referring to the original Crusader doesn't work. Streak Launchers were not installed on the original to the 1R. They appear on the 2R.

Also, the fluff clearly states that the replacement missiles can't match the range or accuracy or the originals. Artemis and Streak only improve accuracy. They don't increase range. So again, making Hawk and Phoenix Missiles Artemis and Streak doesn't work.

[Hellraiser]

Magna Longbow
Magna Longbow + Artemis
= Exact Same Launcher

Harpoon SRM
Harpoon Streak SRM
= Same company/brand of Launcher, albeit different model.

Range could be a factor of accuracy if you think about it.
If I hit more often while at "Long" range then I'm more "effective" at long range, IE, you can't match me at range.

Yeah, there is some word twisting there, but point is "Max Range" and "Max Effective Range" are not the same thing.

[CloaknDagger]

I'll note there are explicitly more in-universe ammos that aren't mentioned.

Incendiary Autocannon ammo IIRC was not only written out of the rules, but the company that made it also made other specialty ammos.

[Wrangler]

I thought there were tracer rounds and flak autocannon rounds are definitely Succession War era available. They're just not that useful and very niche.

[RifleMech]

Magna Longbow
Magna Longbow + Artemis
= Exact Same Launcher

Harpoon SRM
Harpoon Streak SRM
= Same company/brand of Launcher, albeit different model.

The Magna Longbow LRM maybe. However, the 3R wasn't equipped with Artemis so why would it be loaded with Artemis LRMs?

SRM, Nope. Different launchers firing different missiles. And the 3R wasn't equipped with Streaks so it wouldn't have Streak SRMs loaded. They're also incompatible with standard launchers so the 3R couldn't use them.

Range could be a factor of accuracy if you think about it.
If I hit more often while at "Long" range then I'm more "effective" at long range, IE, you can't match me at range.

Yeah, there is some word twisting there, but point is "Max Range" and "Max Effective Range" are not the same thing.

There are two problems with that. The first is that the replacement missiles cannot match the range or accuracy of the old missiles. That's two different things. Second, standard missiles can still hit at the ranges of Artemis and Streak. So making Phoenix and Hawk missiles Artemis and Streak doesn't work.

I'll note there are explicitly more in-universe ammos that aren't mentioned.

Incendiary Autocannon ammo IIRC was not only written out of the rules, but the company that made it also made other specialty ammos.

VGLs have different ammos. Mortars have different ammos but availability changes between editions of TO.

It's my understanding that if it was in a sourcebook, it's still legal/canon unless specifically rewritten in a newer rule book.

I thought there were tracer rounds and flak autocannon rounds are definitely Succession War era available. They're just not that useful and very niche.

There are and they are.

The TRO:3026 fluff for the Partisan AA Tank has ammo that can be used as standard or flak.

[Hellraiser]

The Magna Longbow LRM maybe. However, the 3R wasn't equipped with Artemis so why would it be loaded with Artemis LRMs?

SRM, Nope. Different launchers firing different missiles. And the 3R wasn't equipped with Streaks so it wouldn't have Streak SRMs loaded. They're also incompatible with standard launchers so the 3R couldn't use them.

Sigh.......... You do know that the TROs discuss the entire history of the mech in them right?   Not JUST the 3R?

Like the Zeus mentioning early prototype PPC problems that lead to the AC5 being used.  (And we got the 5 Series)
Like the Marauder mentioning better SLDF Armor & Heatsinks.  (IE the Ferro & DHS from the 1R & 2R)
Like the Warhammer mentioning the old Headhunter ammo   (& then getting Artemis on the 6Rb model.)
Like the Jenner talking about early prototype models (& then we get 2 models w/ No-SRMs & either Large Laser or Extra Armor models)
Like the BattleMaster showing us 2 people in the cockpit & eventually we get to see the Command Console & variants that use it.

Do I really need to go on?

They mention some old ammo that is no longer used, & we get earlier models that REQUIRE a special ammo, that went out of production.
It's as simple as that, no need to keep nitpicking the wording trying to come up with reasons why this basic obvious answer isn't acceptable.

[RifleMech]

Sigh.......... You do know that the TROs discuss the entire history of the mech in them right?   Not JUST the 3R?

Like the Zeus mentioning early prototype PPC problems that lead to the AC5 being used.  (And we got the 5 Series)
Like the Marauder mentioning better SLDF Armor & Heatsinks.  (IE the Ferro & DHS from the 1R & 2R)
Like the Warhammer mentioning the old Headhunter ammo   (& then getting Artemis on the 6Rb model.)
Like the Jenner talking about early prototype models (& then we get 2 models w/ No-SRMs & either Large Laser or Extra Armor models)
Like the BattleMaster showing us 2 people in the cockpit & eventually we get to see the Command Console & variants that use it.

Do I really need to go on?

They mention some old ammo that is no longer used, & we get earlier models that REQUIRE a special ammo, that went out of production.
It's as simple as that, no need to keep nitpicking the wording trying to come up with reasons why this basic obvious answer isn't acceptable.

Sure, and the Crusader's fluff also mention's how the Longbow launchers caused problems on earlier models. But there's no mention of having to change launchers. Just the ammo. Streak Launchers use Streak Ammo. To use standard ammo, the launcher needs to be changed.

I'm not seeing Headhunters for the Warhammer, but I could be missing it. I don't see anything special about the Marauder's Heat Sinks. The Scorpion had special Heat Sinks in the legs though, that we don't have. Did we ever get a Jenner with a Large Laser in a turret? We didn't get a turret for the Locust or the Marauder II. We don't have the Hermes's Alexis-Photon Target Acquisition System. Of course, it's fluff, and the fluff for the Hermes II say the Olympian Flamer uses fuel. The Hermes II also has special heat sinks in the legs, that the RS says aren't there. And there's it's Prototype mounting an AC/5 split between all three torso locations. The Wyvern's Nightwind Large Laser is older, heavier and bulkier but the stats show a regular large laser. And there's the Maltex Corporation's Thug-11E which used Teigart PPCs that are 7% smaller and were replaced by Donal PPC on Earthwerks-10E for after extensive retooling. We don't have rules for a 6.51 ton PPC. We don't have rules for the Nirasaki-400X Command Computer used on the original Fury either. We do know it did and that it weighed .5 tons and added an extra crewman but no rules. There's many things mentioned in the fluff that we don't have rules or RS for. And while variants are mentioned in the fluff, the stats are are specific. The TRO:3035 stats are for the Crusader-3R. Not the 3D, or 3L or any other model, and those stats don't list Streak Launchers.

And I wondered, if the Marauder's Valiant Lamellor Armor was going to be brought up. It can't be FF Armor. It's listed as being installed on the Marauder-3R. It's also listed as being installed on the Orion-1K. The Orion-1K predates FF armor by 32 years and the Marauder-3R post dates FF's extinction by 9 years. Both Mechs are using it when FF doesn't exist. Valiant Lamellor armor s even installed on the MAD-5D, while others are using FF armor. So, no, making Valiant Lamellor armor FF armor doesn't work. Just like making Phoenix and Hawk Missiles into Artemis and Streak Missiles don't work.

[Vrakzi]

For LRMs
Standard, Flare, Heat-Seeking, Incendiary, and Smoke.

For SRMs
Standard, Harpoon, Heat-Seeking, Smoke, Tear Gas SRMs, and Tandem Charge. The last were found in caches by the FedCom. That could apply to any SL era missile though.

For both,
Anti-TSM Missiles are available in 3026.

Are anti-Infantry fragmentation missiles available in 3025 too?

[RifleMech]

Are anti-Infantry fragmentation missiles available in 3025 too?

Not officially. IO:AE has Fragmentation Missies going extinct in 2790 and being recovered in 3054. A case or two could always be found though.

[DevianID]

Yeah, lots of extinct stuff or prototype stuff can be found, but that is outside of 'standard' rules.  IO has a table, which explains that ammo is 'standard rules legal' when it gets a common production date.  So tandem charge missiles for example, are always experimental level rules, akin to how artillery is one level down in 'advanced rules', and commonly produced ammo is 'standard' rules.  Introtech has no alternate ammo, as its even lower rules complexity then standard rules.

So while tandem charge missiles might exist, it doesnt mean they are appropriate for a 'standard' game.

[Charistoph]

Are anti-Infantry fragmentation missiles available in 3025 too?

Only Marik would have access to them in 3054 on any significant level, and the rest of the Inner Sphere would gain access to them in 3058.

Outside of Infernos and a few utility Ammos like Smoke Rounds, there really isn't a lot of Ammo options in 3025 outside of Clan Space or ComStar stocks.