Is the Escorpion Imperio name being retconned in BT Universe?

[HappyDaze]

The BattleTech Universe section on Scorpion Empire/Clan Goliath Scorpion never mentions the term Escorpion Imperio. Instead, it refers to the "Empire" that conquered the Hanseatic League. So is BattleTech trying to quietly erase the "bad Spanish" name?

[ColBosch]

Sort of, yes. It was the Escorpion Imperio when they took over the Castellan region, then changed to Scorpion Empire with the conquest of the Hanseatic League.

[glitterboy2098]

i'd guess that the Castellan region, which mostly speaks spanish as their primary language, probably still calls it the Imperio. but the Scorpions themselves probably always used english and called it the Scorpion Empire when not communicating directly to the spanish speaking locals. and now that they've taken over a region that speaks something else, the reports being used to compile the sourcebooks (which are in universe briefing documents remember) now include the english name rather than the spanish version that came from talking to the Castellan natives.

[Doc Swift]

The Clanners who took over never called it that, so it was not the official name.

[tassa_kay]

The Clanners who took over never called it that, so it was not the official name.

The Crimson Seeker Star PDF contradicts this: "Khan Colin Yeh and saKhan Connor Rood chose to work in cooperation with their new worlds, even calling the new realm Escorpion Imperio." WoR also contradicts this by having the name being created by the Scorpions' Clan Council. Omega Galaxy was also comprised of Imperio Guards before OTP Hanseatic Crusade changed them to Imperial Guards. All evidence points to Clanners using the name and it actually being the official name until it was changed post-Crusade.

[HappyDaze]

So different sources conflict?

Some suggest that the Escorpion Imperio was just an unofficial nickname while others say it was the actual official title for the Periphery realm?

Any thoughts as to why the Scorpion Empire/Clan Goliath Scorpion entry in BattleTech Universe never refers to the state as the Escorpion Imperio when describing its history pre-Hanseatic Crusade?

[tassa_kay]

So different sources conflict?

Not really. The Scorpions' faction changed its name from Escorpion Imperio to Scorpion Empire after the Hanseatic Crusade was concluded. The writer can claim otherwise, but what's in print is what's in print until there's an official retcon in place.

Any thoughts as to why the Scorpion Empire/Clan Goliath Scorpion entry in BattleTech Universe never refers to the state as the Escorpion Imperio when describing its history pre-Hanseatic Crusade?

Because the writer of that section is the Scorpions' current writing czar and has made changes to the faction that are to his liking (getting rid of Protos, changing the name to Scorpion Empire, etc).

[Weirdo]

This is a retcon I approve of. The old name always made me feel slightly racist every time I wrote or spoke it.

[tassa_kay]

I'm not sure why anyone would feel racist over a misordering of words (Imperio Escorpion would've been grammatically and linguistically correct). I mean, it's the Clans... isn't butchering language kind of their thing? I mostly don't mind the name change, especially since it's a lateral move, but it's definitely not a retcon.

[HappyDaze]

(Imperio Escorpion would've been grammatically and linguistically correct)

I think you mean Imperio Escorpión. The accute accent matters if you're going for correctness. 

[tassa_kay]

I think you mean Imperio Escorpión. The accute accent matters if you're going for correctness. 

I think you mean acute, not accute. Since we're being pedantic correct.

[HappyDaze]

I think you mean acute, not accute. Since we're being pedantic correct.

That's fair.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Scorpion Empire is a better generic (and SLDF English correct) name for the Scorps, as their is four main cultures now

[HappyDaze]

Scorpion Empire is a better generic (and SLDF English correct) name for the Scorps, as their is four main cultures now

I count six:
1 Clan Goliath Scorpion
2 Clan Ice Hellion
3 Eridani Light Horse
4 Castilian
5 Umayyad
6 Hansa

But I guess you could say:
1 Clan (Goliath Scorpion & Ice Hellion)
2 Eridani Light Horse
3 Nueva Castile (Castilian & Umayyad)
4 Hansa

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I count six:
1 Clan Goliath Scorpion
2 Clan Ice Hellion
3 Eridani Light Horse
4 Castilian
5 Umayyad
6 Hansa

But I guess you could say:
1 Clan (Goliath Scorpion & Ice Hellion)
2 Eridani Light Horse
3 Nueva Castile (Castilian & Umayyad)
4 Hansa

Eridani are nowhere near big enough to be ethnicity especially in a nation with billions of people

Besides they were adopted into Clan as long lost cousins not strangers, their DNA and heritage is preserved and valued but they were never ethnicity or culture

Actual culture list would be:

1.Goliath Scorpions (including Hellions)

2. Castilian

3. Umayyad

4. Hanseatic


All of them together would now comprise Clan Goliath Scorpion considering that everyone who lives in Scorpion Empire is member of the Clan Goliath Scorpion by default (nationality not ethnicity)


Those who can trace their lineage back to Clan Homeworlds would be something like descendants of Mayflower passengers in USA, folks from Inner Sphere would probably call them 'Old Money' 

[Agathos]

Do the Eridani Light Horse really have any cultural influence in the modern Scorpion Empire? (Okay, the Seventy-First Scorpion
Uhlans Cluster exists...)

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Trueborn DNA and Bloodnames draw a lot of water with Clans

Plus history counts for a lot with Scorpions

You can see it in story "Ride a Black Horse" in latest Shrapnel, protagonist is ELH trueborn descendant and is very keenly aware of it

[Baldur Mekorig]

This is a retcon I approve of. The old name always made me feel slightly racist every time I wrote or spoke it.

Why?

As a native spanish speaker, i always assumed the "Escorpion Imperio" was more of a simple error of a non spanish speaker author than anything else, not real malice behind it. I mean, i tend to butcher english words and names from time to time.

[Weirdo]

We live in a day and age when looking up the correct wording or finding a native speaker is unbelievably easy. It may not actually be intentional, but it *feels* intentional, and leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[tassa_kay]

Meh, Hanlon's Razor would seem to apply here. The alternative is assuming that Ben Rome was intentionally trying to be racist (towards whom, I have no idea), and that's just an absurd assumption to make without any evidence to substantiate it.

[Shin_Fenris]

As a native spanish speaker, i always assumed the "Escorpion Imperio" was more of a simple error of a non spanish speaker author than anything else, not real malice behind it. I mean, i tend to butcher english words and names from time to time.

As a native English speaker, I tend to butcher English words and names on a regular basis as well - most of them I know from reading as a child/young adult, not hearing them pronounced, so you're definitely in good company.

I try to never attribute malice where a simple mistake could just as well be the cause. Given how much of the universe is awash with other cultures and languages represented, at least an attempt was made to expand the Spanish offerings. And I imagine Rome et al didn't want to attempt to go more on the Umayyad side of that language equation.

[Alan Grant]

This reminds me of something I did to embarrass myself; I did like this years ago in a collaborative fan fiction game.

I wrote out a scene that included some mandarin words and phrases as part of the dialogue in an otherwise english-language scene. Ironically it was Battletech (I say that just because I've actually written way more in other games than BT) and the characters had Capellan origins/history.

I don't speak or write Mandarin, and rather than research.. oh I dunno "good" sources. Of all things I grabbed off my shelf the Firefly/Serenity RPG book off my bookshelf. Which included pages of some supposedly Mandarin words and phrases. I used that. (DUMB!!!!)

I wrote the scene, someone in the group did speak/read/write Mandarin and started politely but firmly telling me a lot of that stuff didn't make sense, was nonsense and/or gibberish.

I felt really embarrassed and rewrote the scene ditching the concept. I wouldn't do that again. I don't THINK anyone took it as racist, I certainly hope not, but it was bad. Even with good sources, I'd be VERY hesitant to attempt anything like that again. If I don't speak/write that language, I don't speak/write that language, period. That was a lesson learned for me.

I don't know if something like that, is what happened here. I don't know this author.

But I could understand if it was good in intention and just bad in execution. Because I've done it.

I'm very glad for that person in the group who said something and I appreciate the way they handled it and handled me frankly.

EDIT: I wanted to add, there's definitely a red line on this kind of thing somewhere for me, I'm just not sure where it is. Perhaps repeated behavior/incidents. Perhaps being called out and refusing to apologize or acknowledge the thing. Something in that ballpark.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

The inverted placing of the words suggests it was coined by a native English speaker. In this day and age it should have been relatively easy to correct this so the mistake seems to have been intentional. In universe though, Clans can't exactly be said to have ever been interested, let alone expert in languages and cultures not their own. Just adopting the Spanish sounding name probably stretched their meager cultural sensitivity to its limits. Then as they completed the Conquest of the Castillian speaking territory, either it became moot or somebody finally had the guts to tell them to their faces they got it wrong (or they finally learned).

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

The inverted placing of the words suggests it was coined by a native English speaker. In this day and age it should have been relatively easy to correct this so the mistake seems to have been intentional. In universe though, Clans can't exactly be said to have ever been interested, let alone expert in languages and cultures not their own. Just adopting the Spanish sounding name probably stretched their meager cultural sensitivity to its limits. Then as they completed the Conquest of the Castillian speaking territory, either it became moot or somebody finally had the guts to tell them to their faces they got it wrong (or they finally learned).

In this day and age yes but the book came out in 2011

Google Translate was only 5 years old at the time and was pretty much just pulling from dictionary 1:1 without much care about finer points which is probably how Escorpion Imperio came to be

Back then it was understandable oversight but these days it's seen as unforgivable insult and something that any company interested in it's own wellbeing would rush to correct pronto

And in-universe Scorpions aren't too bothered with Spanish or other local languages, they have sent them back in use in  media and schools

SLDF English is lingua franca of the Empire and language of state institutions

Empire is bilingual now, SLDF English plus whichever local language a place has, several are listed in books

[Maingunnery]

Why?

As a native spanish speaker, i always assumed the "Escorpion Imperio" was more of a simple error of a non spanish speaker author than anything else, not real malice behind it. I mean, i tend to butcher english words and names from time to time.

I have a similar perspective, when a non-native speaker makes mistakes (or even deliberate) in either English or my own language, I just see it as possible source of comedy.

[ArkRoyalRavager]

Same here. I'm not even a native speaker but I think Escorpion Imperio and Scorpion Empire are both cool names. There are only two Empires in a universe of vast star-spanning realms and one of them was built by the little Goliath Scorpion Clan out of sheer hard work. Now that's awesome.

[HappyDaze]

Same here. I'm not even a native speaker but I think Escorpion Imperio and Scorpion Empire are both cool names. There are only two Empires in a universe of vast star-spanning realms and one of them was built by the little Goliath Scorpion Clan out of sheer hard work. Now that's awesome.

If conquest is sheer hard work then the Wolf Empire can claim the same. Of course, Alaric the Foolish is letting his Empire crumble as he parties on/around Terra, so maybe not.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Same here. I'm not even a native speaker but I think Escorpion Imperio and Scorpion Empire are both cool names. There are only two Empires in a universe of vast star-spanning realms and one of them was built by the little Goliath Scorpion Clan out of sheer hard work. Now that's awesome.

Yeah, this is one of big reasons why they became my favorite faction, they put in the work

"So, we are stuck in the middle of nowhere with bunch of local hicks?

"Yeap, time to get cracking I guess, no point slacking off, job won't do itself"

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Yeah, this is one of big reasons why they became my favorite faction, they put in the work

"So, we are stuck in the middle of nowhere with bunch of local hicks?

"Yeap, time to get cracking I guess, no point slacking off, job won't do itself"

Yeah, I agree, that's why Scorps is up there with the Bears for me (kinda with Jiyi too in a similar, but much smaller vein)

[ArkRoyalRavager]

If conquest is sheer hard work then the Wolf Empire can claim the same. Of course, Alaric the Foolish is letting his Empire crumble as he parties on/around Terra, so maybe not.

He had to go all in for Terra just like Malvina. After the conquest, it was the Cappies and Leaguers that caused the crumbling of the Wolf Empire.