Does Anyone Actually WANT An AC for Antiaircraft Work?

[Goose]

 

Yeah; So much of "our" inspiration points to "guns cheap," and "missiles expensive."

But does that carry ammo in this sortie? Is not the Whole 'Verse preoccupied with lasers and the like?

Even if the tank in question is fueled?

Please: Pontificate …


Part of Gooses List of UnThings

[AlphaMirage]

If I have enough ammo and there is a threat yeah I'd totally take a ton of Flak to handle that threat. LRMs are suitable too if you lack that but they're okay. ER lasers aren't bad either but I'm less keen on basic large lasers

[Daryk]

To paraphrase Weirdo from years ago, the first rule of AAA is RANGE.  The following 99 rules are ALSO just RANGE over and over again.  Until you get Extended LRMs, AC/2s are your go to.  And if you're looking at cost or magazine depth for some reason, AC/2s win over LRMs of any kind.

[Charistoph]

I'd say Range and Thresholds are the important aspects for AAA work.  Sure, there are ways to reduce that like FLAK and Quirks, but Range helps knock down the worst  modifier, and Threshold lets you mess up the ASF.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Nothing like unloading a few rounds of LB-X cluster ammo to make an ASF or VTOL to go away.

[DevianID]

So, aerospace rules are complicated, but you have very very little time on target to aircraft, so hitting them with anything and hoping they fail a PSR and go out of control is the best way to deal with them.  Flak -2 thus trumps more damage from other sources to cause the initial PSR.

Thresholds, in my experience, is not a good way to down an aerospace unit.  There are very few areas that actually threaten an aerofighter with a crit, and you arnt guarenteed to get it.  In an attrition air only game at space it matters more, but if you are playing the odds you shouldnt be focusing on thresholds, they just arnt impactful in the actual game span being played ground-to-air.

Raw damage is good at dropping some aerospace units, because unlike threshold with its low impact, raw damage not only can kill weak aerospace assets, like conventional, but it also forces a +1 penalty to the PSR for every 20 damage dealt.  Since PSRs are the #1 way to 'quickly' kill aerospace in a ground versus air game of battletech, raw damage making those PSRs harder is the next best bet to deal with them, the first being to get ANY damage onto them (with flak).

Now, on top of this, IF you play BV balance (and you should), the BV formula is almost just rangeXdamage.  So AC2 and 5s are cheap long range guns, cause their damage isnt that high, meaning bringing some flak ACs to the fight isnt costing you very much.  Like, the Blackjack's 949 BV, and removing the paired AC2s and ammo makes it 884, thus the opportunity cost for those 2 AC2s is only 65 BV.  65 BV to cover the sky with some plinkers is a STEAL.  While AC2s and 5s are not the most efficient anti-mech guns, they are super good versus aerospace, thanks to flak ammo.

As for range, well one of the things aerospace can do is just fly at altitude 10 and drop bombs.  At such an altitude, only range 20+ attacks very close to the flight line can hit.  So AC2s are the only introtech weapon that can hit them from more then 1 hexline away, while LRMs can hit them one hex from the line.  LBx in later timeline are even longer ranged, though ER LRMs are the longest range guns.  Since aerospace moves after ground, if all you brought was LRMs for antiair work, the fighters can literally just never be shot, dropping bombs until empty, by being more then 1 hex away from the LRM units.

If the fighters are just kinda lining up gun runs like via a mechbuster, well at that point you can hit them with medium lasers haha, so those aerospace units dont tend to live long and yeah, you dont need flak or range or anything, just medium lasers like literally everywhere else in the game lol.  This advice is more geared towards shooting the high altitude bombers, who can do their thing and fly away safely unless you ding them with a flak shot and send them out of control.  In linked games or games where tracking kills is the mission, failing to down the high altitude bomber means they can come back, or you dont score any kills and thus dont win the mission if you lose even 1 unit.

SO yeah, how you set up your game and how aggressively you play will make very big impacts in what the value of an AA flak AC is worth.  Against the YOLO mechbuster, you can just zap them with anything so who cares.  Its when Air assets are trying to be frustrating and evasive, only engaging at altitudes that make other units unable to shoot them, that the AC flak is so valuable to score that plink for PSR.

[monbvol]

So, aerospace rules are complicated, but you have very very little time on target to aircraft, so hitting them with anything and hoping they fail a PSR and go out of control is the best way to deal with them.  Flak -2 thus trumps more damage from other sources to cause the initial PSR.

Thresholds, in my experience, is not a good way to down an aerospace unit.  There are very few areas that actually threaten an aerofighter with a crit, and you arnt guarenteed to get it.  In an attrition air only game at space it matters more, but if you are playing the odds you shouldnt be focusing on thresholds, they just arnt impactful in the actual game span being played ground-to-air.

Raw damage is good at dropping some aerospace units, because unlike threshold with its low impact, raw damage not only can kill weak aerospace assets, like conventional, but it also forces a +1 penalty to the PSR for every 20 damage dealt.  Since PSRs are the #1 way to 'quickly' kill aerospace in a ground versus air game of battletech, raw damage making those PSRs harder is the next best bet to deal with them, the first being to get ANY damage onto them (with flak).

Now, on top of this, IF you play BV balance (and you should), the BV formula is almost just rangeXdamage.  So AC2 and 5s are cheap long range guns, cause their damage isnt that high, meaning bringing some flak ACs to the fight isnt costing you very much.  Like, the Blackjack's 949 BV, and removing the paired AC2s and ammo makes it 884, thus the opportunity cost for those 2 AC2s is only 65 BV.  65 BV to cover the sky with some plinkers is a STEAL.  While AC2s and 5s are not the most efficient anti-mech guns, they are super good versus aerospace, thanks to flak ammo.

As for range, well one of the things aerospace can do is just fly at altitude 10 and drop bombs.  At such an altitude, only range 20+ attacks very close to the flight line can hit.  So AC2s are the only introtech weapon that can hit them from more then 1 hexline away, while LRMs can hit them one hex from the line.  LBx in later timeline are even longer ranged, though ER LRMs are the longest range guns.  Since aerospace moves after ground, if all you brought was LRMs for antiair work, the fighters can literally just never be shot, dropping bombs until empty, by being more then 1 hex away from the LRM units.

If the fighters are just kinda lining up gun runs like via a mechbuster, well at that point you can hit them with medium lasers haha, so those aerospace units dont tend to live long and yeah, you dont need flak or range or anything, just medium lasers like literally everywhere else in the game lol.  This advice is more geared towards shooting the high altitude bombers, who can do their thing and fly away safely unless you ding them with a flak shot and send them out of control.  In linked games or games where tracking kills is the mission, failing to down the high altitude bomber means they can come back, or you dont score any kills and thus dont win the mission if you lose even 1 unit.

SO yeah, how you set up your game and how aggressively you play will make very big impacts in what the value of an AA flak AC is worth.  Against the YOLO mechbuster, you can just zap them with anything so who cares.  Its when Air assets are trying to be frustrating and evasive, only engaging at altitudes that other units can shoot them, that the AC flak is so valuable.

Something to keep in mind for high altitude bombing is that LOS is automatically broken between airborne units above Altitude 8 and ground targets.  So even AC-2s can't hit an ASF flying at Altitude 10.

[DevianID]

So that is true with one of the 3 map types Monbvol, page 99 disallows LOS to fighters on the low altitude map past elevation 8, which is different of course to the 'air units on ground mapsheets'.  The same section on page 99 says

The same LOS rules apply if using the Aerospace Units on Ground Mapsheets rules (p. 91), except that LOS always exists regardless of the size of the playing area, or where the aerospace units ended their movement in relation to the non aerospace units.

So to me that reads plainly that LOS exists regardless, if using that version of the 3 different ways to move aerospace fighters.  If the range 8 is meant to apply to 'air units on ground mapsheets', not just for the 'low altitude mapsheets', then the statement "LOS Always Exists" feels like a really bad way to word that, if you are saying LOS does NOT always exist haha.

Like, its really hard to reconcile 'LOS always exists... regardless of where the aerospace unit moves' if using air on ground mapsheets, and then saying [well if the aerospace unit moves to altitude 10 it cant be seen, despite such clear wording that LOS always exists].

But thats a rules question for other people to errata.  Unless it was errata'd and I missed it.

[Sir Chaos]

Something to keep in mind for high altitude bombing is that LOS is automatically broken between airborne units above Altitude 8 and ground targets.  So even AC-2s can't hit an ASF flying at Altitude 10.

Who bombs from Altitude 10? With that to-hit modifier, they´re not bombing the hex you´re in, they´re bombing the ZIP code you´re in.

[DevianID]

With altitude bombing, you kinda toss the bombs in front.  It's a controlled chaos.  If you ever played warhammer fantasy with cannons, its like that with the guess and random bounce.  The bombs with go a predictable number of hexes forward with a 1 in 3 chance to hit centerline, and you have a line of them so on average you hit your mark in the direction you desired.  And your targets are things bombs can kill for the most part.

If you are just dive bombing a Daishi its a 1 way trip but you don't care at that point being altitude 3 and exposed, cause 100 damage to a Daishi from a mechbuster is insane value.

But in campaigns where you want to keep pilots alive and level them up, it's high altitude all day every day for me, keeping the investment alive while still dropping damage comparable to a strafe, way safer but requiring good guesswork.  And you get rewarded with good skill and such, while keeping those BV spent in skill points safe from most ground fire.

[Daryk]

Heck, that's pretty much exactly how altitude bombing used to work IRL!

[monbvol]

Indeed, level bombing with cluster bombs or airdropped mines from high altitude can be surprisingly effective if you're prepared to accept you're going to miss your intended designated hex and designate accordingly.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There's a reason that level bombing historically was typically done by massed aircraft formations to saturate an area rather than trying to go after individual targets.

[Weirdo]

On the tabletop, a high-altitude run with cluster bombs won't outright kill much, but it's a great way to inflict a small amount of damage on *everyone*. Not that good against mechs(at least, intact ones), but great for forcing multitudes of motive rolls on a vehicle formation, and absolutely devastating against a large formation of infantry or BA.

[I am Belch II]

Isnt there a "shotgun" ammo for standard AC?? You dont need to do the damage you need for them to make that pilot skill roll

[ANS Kamas P81]

The closest to that is Flak ammo for ACs, which gets (IIRC) a -2 THM against air targets.

[Daryk]

I proposed cluster ammo for all down in fan rules... it's linked in my sig block.

[Fallen_Raven]

Autocannons are the go to for a number of reason. Range has been covered extensively, as has BV, so I'll throw in different tack. Opportunity cost favors the light ACs.

The irony of being sub-optimal in a head on fight is that the AC/2 and AC/5 are almost always more valuable pointing at the sky, largely because they won't be missed on the ground. People love to bag on them as being "inefficient" due to the low damage to weight ratio. There's also the concern about how vulnerable those large ammo bins make you to explosions. But in turn, this means that the light ACs are able to be used without worrying if you'll have ammo when you need it. There's also none of the heat concerns that things like ERPPCs and (Clan) LPLs might experience, so you don't need to worry as much about getting caught in a divebomb the turn after you did an alpha strike. The same lack of impact that the small canons get criticized for makes them quite good for the AA role.

[Weirdo]

There's also the opportunity cost of shooting at an air unit vs a ground unit.

I've long gotten great success out of the strategy of keeping fragile stuff alive by having scarier things draw fire. People often talk about taking out the easy kills first, but in my experience nine times out of ten my opponent will ignore the Panther or Urbanmech sniping from range simply because my Thunderbolt is charging at them with clear intention of climbing down their throat, even if the to-hit numbers are the same and the guns they have on hand are enough to one-shot the smaller mech.

All but the most green rookies will know that an AC/2 or two won't do jack to a T-Bolt, but anyone who's played more than zero games with aero knows that even a single such gun can kill a fighter in a ground attack run. There's very little perceived opportunity cost to pointing that gun away from the big scary mech, so having a small cannon or two means even the least disciplined player can have viable anti-air defenses.

[Hellraiser]

I've long gotten great success out of the strategy of keeping fragile stuff alive by having scarier things draw fire. People often talk about taking out the easy kills first, but in my experience nine times out of ten my opponent will ignore the Panther or Urbanmech sniping from range simply because my Thunderbolt is charging at them with clear intention of climbing down their throat, even if the to-hit numbers are the same and the guns they have on hand are enough to one-shot the smaller mech. 

Depends on the situation.

1.  I'll almost always shoot at whatever the lowest To-Hit is, regardless of danger level. 
A friend actually uses that against me by rotating "easiest" but in the end, I'm still shredding armor & you WILL run out of things to rotate so, I'll play that game usually.

2.  I'll happily come off that DireWolf in the distance to paste the Hunchback-IIC that is trying to charge down my throat.  Because I'm NOT letting you get off AC20 shots.
Ditto pasting the infantry that wandered into SPL range in clear terrain at the expense of ignoring the Packhunter sniping at range.

3.  Or sometimes its just opportunity fire, like that Firefalcon-B w/ the ERLLs that has been +4 & long range all day & for 1 turn its only +2 as it went up the hill & you managed to end in Medium range of it for once.
Now is the time, paste it because it's the only chance you have of hitting that thing.

[Hellraiser]

Nothing like unloading a few rounds of LB-X cluster ammo to make an ASF or VTOL to go away.

This^^^    Only it's always VTOLs.
My GM doesn't use ASF w/ Ground battles but VTOLs are common & there is nothing quite like some LB10X fire to keep them honest.

[Daryk]

Agreed on your priorities in the first post!

[Sir Chaos]

There's also the opportunity cost of shooting at an air unit vs a ground unit.

I've long gotten great success out of the strategy of keeping fragile stuff alive by having scarier things draw fire. People often talk about taking out the easy kills first, but in my experience nine times out of ten my opponent will ignore the Panther or Urbanmech sniping from range simply because my Thunderbolt is charging at them with clear intention of climbing down their throat, even if the to-hit numbers are the same and the guns they have on hand are enough to one-shot the smaller mech.

All but the most green rookies will know that an AC/2 or two won't do jack to a T-Bolt, but anyone who's played more than zero games with aero knows that even a single such gun can kill a fighter in a ground attack run. There's very little perceived opportunity cost to pointing that gun away from the big scary mech, so having a small cannon or two means even the least disciplined player can have viable anti-air defenses.

Agreed in general terms - with the caveat that, if shooting at a ground unit, you could, depending on the situation, be shooting more weapons at it than you´re shooting at the air unit.

If you´re looking at a BJ-1 Blackjack for example, that could either fire at a ground target at 15 hexes or an air target at 5 hexes plus 5 altitude levels (so also effectively 15 hexes), that´s 4 points of potential damage either way, and you´re probably better off trying to hit the air target.

But if that same BJ-1 Blackjack has the ground target at 5 hexes instead (and the air target still at 15 effective hexes), you could potentially be inflicting useful damage on the ground target, so depending on what that ground target is, it might be more worthwhile shooting it instead.

[Vrakzi]

Heat-Seeking Missiles are highly effective against ground attack air units, FWIW. With a possible -7 (probably only -5, TBF) on the attack roll they are very dangerous , and any unit that displays that they have them should be treated with extreme caution by any sane ASF pilot. An Archer goes from "victim" to "deadly" with nothing in between. You should respect any 'mech that's capable of putting 40 LRMs up your exhaust with that accuracy.

[Weirdo]

They're less effective than you think, given that it is *extremely* rare for a ground unit to get tail shots on an aero for that to-hit bonus. 80-90% of Ground-to-Air shots are coming in from the side, and of the remaining situations, 99% will be shots the nose.

Aft shots aren't impossible from the ground, but pretty close.

[PonyMechwarrior]

If I have enough ammo and there is a threat yeah I'd totally take a ton of Flak to handle that threat. LRMs are suitable too if you lack that but they're okay. ER lasers aren't bad either but I'm less keen on basic large lasers

Once took hunchbacks with [IS] medium pulse lasers... Learned quickly those do not have the range to hit aircrafts. Thankfully by luck those same models also used LBX/20, but I was forced to spend cluster ammo to flip off aircrafts instead of using it to perform a crit seeking finisher on enemy mechs. At least I saved the solid rounds for the mechs.

[Sabelkatten]

As it came up in the Bane/Kraken MotW - light ACs are supposed to be AA weapons in general. How about just giving all types of AC/2s and AC/5s a flak bonus no matter what ammo they use? Would sure make them more attractive!

(I hope this little house rule suggestion is OK here as long as any discussion on the idea goes in the correct forum!)

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It wouldn't fix them completely, but it would help.

[Charistoph]

So long as it isn't as strong as the regular Flak bonus, it could work.  Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of Cluster or Flak Ammo.

[Sabelkatten]

So long as it isn't as strong as the regular Flak bonus, it could work.  Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of Cluster or Flak Ammo.

My idea was mostly to just get rid of flak ammo. Otherwise only units with multiple tons of AC ammo would really benefit. Cluster would still get the extra -1 TN.