Author Topic: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks  (Read 2632 times)

Xotl

  • Dominus Erratorum
  • BattleTech Developer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12489
  • Professor of Errata
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #30 on: 29 April 2025, 15:10:05 »
The speed factor table - As others have noted indirectly running (w/ MASC and Supercharger by extension) cannot be used at the same time as jumping and they do not represent the same utility in a terrain filled game. I would separate them and make the jump speed factor version have a sharp increase between jump 6 and jump 7.

The leap in pure utility between jump 6 and jump 7 is a very good point and I've been wrestling with ways to capture that.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14020
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #31 on: 29 April 2025, 16:36:25 »
Did you mean the D?  Because I've seen the C in action and it does not impress.

No I mean the C.  It's a pair of Large Pulse and supplemental long range guns that's heat neutral and durable as hell for under 2K BV.  Its BV peers are Inner Sphere heavies that it handily outguns and usually out-toughs, not Mad Cats.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28123
  • Need a hand?
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #32 on: 29 April 2025, 16:45:00 »
Fair enough.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

In the beginning, the universe was created.  This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30141
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #33 on: 29 April 2025, 18:12:57 »
No I mean the C.  It's a pair of Large Pulse and supplemental long range guns that's heat neutral and durable as hell for under 2K BV.  Its BV peers are Inner Sphere heavies that it handily outguns and usually out-toughs, not Mad Cats.

Oh yes, the Nova Cat C was a competitive MM server go to b/c of those 2 LPL in a arm and the other had 2 UAC/5 & 1 LB-5X, it had the ability to make the holes at range and crit seek at very good BVs for a Clan design- under 2K.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14898
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #34 on: 29 April 2025, 19:02:49 »
Other 'Mechs that I haven't covered in my reviews that are absolutely bugnuts good: Nova Cat C, Vulture Mk III A and C, Black Lanner D, Fire Falcon C, Kingfisher Prime and C, Gunsmith, literally anything with any quantity of Variable Speed Pulse Lasers. 

Did you mean the D?  Because I've seen the C in action and it does not impress.

No I mean the C.  It's a pair of Large Pulse and supplemental long range guns that's heat neutral and durable as hell for under 2K BV.  Its BV peers are Inner Sphere heavies that it handily outguns and usually out-toughs, not Mad Cats.

THIS ^^^

This is a direct effect of not being able to Overheat & taking ACs which have Low BV per Ton.
You get the same effect on other mechs where maybe they are not "THE MOST POWERFUL" configuration of said Omni, BUT, they are LB/LB the most "efficient".

Everyone loves the Warhawk-C for example,  but me,   I'll take an A or D in a BV balanced game over the C any day all day.
DireWolf-A v/s Prime or C?  YES.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

TimberwolfD

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 72
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #35 on: 29 April 2025, 21:08:54 »
The leap in pure utility between jump 6 and jump 7 is a very good point and I've been wrestling with ways to capture that.

I've been known to do statistical modeling on occasion. If you want me to take a crack at writing up a statistical model analysis, I can do that. The end product could be packaged into a set of tables similar to the current ones for simplicity of application even if the background analysis is more complex.

Xotl

  • Dominus Erratorum
  • BattleTech Developer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12489
  • Professor of Errata
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #36 on: 29 April 2025, 21:39:33 »
I've been known to do statistical modeling on occasion. If you want me to take a crack at writing up a statistical model analysis, I can do that. The end product could be packaged into a set of tables similar to the current ones for simplicity of application even if the background analysis is more complex.

By all means, please do.  I don't want to break compatibility or radically rework scores, so I'm trying to find some kind of gentle way of handling it along with things like the Koshi Prime and its 6 jump jets getting a break.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2440
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #37 on: 29 April 2025, 23:43:55 »
People often comment on this one, and rightfully so I think.  But what do people actually feel it should cost?  Not compared to other Dashers, since they're troublesome too, but as a general, balanced-against-the-field BV cost?
So over in fan articles I kinda had a discussion style topic on this.  More or less, damage as a component of the weapon's BV needs to go up, as while the current formula is good for 'kiting' pricing given 'infinite' map, the game default is not infinite maps.  So shorter ranged guns will get in range, by nature of fixed game board, thus damage needs to be a cost, as well as damageXrange.  Since the current weapon formula is just damageXrange, high base damage low range weapons get a criminally low cost on anything with the speed to employ it.

After crunching numbers over there, I came up with what amounts to -33% base BV on all weapons, and then 3xDamage as a 'minimum cost of existing'.  This was done with wundergoats suggestion to keep medium lasers the same BV, but shorter ranged weapons go up in cost and longer ranged weapons go down.  This would make the Dasher Hs offensive value increase by 66% ish. 

Napkin math with that change puts the H up 330 BV, so with no other change it would be 1100.  Other, longer ranged dashers would go down in cost.  The anemic C, which costs about the same as a dasher H but only has 2 LRM5s for weapons, with this weapon change, would see its weapons BV go down over 50 points, lowering it from 741 to 685.  Now, looking at the two, one with 54 damage in heavy smalls, and the other with 6 damage in LRMs, the weapon adjustment would change them from 779 and 741, to 1100ish and 680ish.  1100 and 680 feel much more appropriate.

1100 is hunchback territory, or a 3025 wolverine 6R currently.  A dasher H at 1100 and those 2 definitely are a bit more even and feel like an appropriately balanced fight, with the edge to the dasher (and the dasher is a bit more expensive then both, so that makes sense).

On the topic specifically of the koshi, while 6 and 7 jump break points are big, the koshi isnt actually bad.  In this case, 7 jump is overperforming.  5-6 jump perform fine, as the way the formula does speed values, the Koshi isnt taking much of a hit in speed factor.  Weak jump is problematic more on units with drastically weak jump.  Like, a 6/9 with 2 jump would be terrible because the jump would never get used, but bumps the speed factor up for something you wont use.

In the Koshi's case, the Koshi is stronger for having jump jets (if only 6) then not, cause 6 jump is still good and only results in a 22% increase in weapon BV compared to 0 jump.  If the Koshi had 7 jump, then it would fall under the problems the Wraith has, AKA high jump is too strong.

I redid the speed factor and defensive modifier tables for those reasons.  It should be clear to most that high jump is too efficient.  In the article, I discussed part of this, but the Koshi serves as a good example here.  Adding that 7th jump jet wont actually cost the koshi's defense multiple to change in the current formula (the only difference to a 7 jump koshi in the current formula is 6% more cost to weapons), because at 11 running the koshi is granted a +4 all the time anyway. 

But to all that have played, the 7 jump +4 is a certianty in TMM, while 11 run is rarely a +4.  For this reason, I suggested a graduated TMM multipler for running rates.  A 10 MP run, in my figures, would count at TMM 3.125, increasing .125 per extra MP.  Jump, in contrast, would always apply the largest TMM, cause it is a guarenteed TMM unlike running.  Essentially, I just made a 'defensive speed factor' that much better aligns to what you see on the table.

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2440
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #38 on: 30 April 2025, 00:04:01 »
On the topic of TMM, I also have called out that TMM currently scales in an inverse fashion.  I suggested an increasing fashion to fix that.

IE.  TMM2 is a 1.2 multipler.  TMM2 costs 9% more then TMM1.
TMM3 is a 1.3 multiplier.  TMM3 costs 8% more then TMM2.

Thus, the defense cost (in BV) is LESS for high TMMs.  Now, we play on a 2d6 curve.  So the VALUE for TMM on the table is MORE for high TMM.  This is why instead of the existing TMM multipliers, I recommended scaling ones that are properly more expensive for more TMM, not less expensive.

I put forth the following over there:  (Accuracy is set to targeting computer multipliers, just to show the relationships between diminishing returns we see for high accuracy on the tabletop as TNs approach autohit, versus what I think the TMM multipliers should be as they scale up to impossible to be hit).
Quote
+1 Accuracy 1.25x  +1 TMM 1.1x
+2 Accuracy 1.5625x +2 TMM 1.27x
+3 Accuacy 1.9531x +3 TMM 1.57x
+4 Accuracy 2.4414x +4 TMM 2.2x
+5 Accuracy 3.0516x +5 TMM 3.3x
+6 Accuracy 3.8147x +6 TMM 5.5x
+7 Accuracy 4.7684x +7 TMM 11x

Vrakzi

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #39 on: 30 April 2025, 03:35:03 »
There have been a fair number of threads over the years about BV 2.0 and how it works or, in some cases, fails to work (and I've read them).  But there have been a lot of new mechs released over the past few years, and so I'd like to hear your thoughts on the mechs (old or new, low tech or high) that benefit the most from the system.  I'd like to hear about the BV bargains you'd always take if you could make it work, and those that are penalized the hardest by it--mechs you'd never take unless forced to solely because of their BV.

Not looking for non-mech units.

A 'Mech I personally love to take is the BJ-4 Blackjack; the combination of Precision Ammunition and a Targeting Computer is wonderful for use as a "BugBGone" 'Mech, and even once it's shot all of the fast movers it's an amazingly reliable source of damage. There's a lot to be said for a 'Mech that's going to hit you on 3/5/7 more-or-less regardless of your movement. This is, much like the Clan Pulse + TC combo, a case where stacking hit bonuses is worth more than the sum of its parts.

On a different note: One of the failings of the current BV system is that it doesn't calculate any defensive value for heat sinks (or, more accurately, heat sinking capacity); there is, in raw BV terms, no difference between a single and a double heat sink. Heat calculations only start to come into play when weapon heat output is considered, and this fundamentally fails to account for the defensive value of heat sink capacity vs heat warfare tactics. There should be at least some defensive value for the heat sink capacity of the 'Mech, independent of its weapon heat output.

I still think the biggest fault is JJ & MASC/SC . . . you cannot use both systems at once, you should not pay the BV for both systems at once.  The formula should take whichever is the higher cost and drop the other.

While I would agree that having both means that you don't get the full benefit of either, I would point out that you do get the utility of being able to decide which to use. There is value in that tactical flexibility, so while some form of discount would seem appropriate, I don't think making one of the two systems entirely "BV-free" would be a good idea.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2025, 03:46:50 by Vrakzi »

Church14

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1608
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #40 on: 30 April 2025, 04:13:18 »
If we’re going beyond what XotL asked and hypothesizing. I’d say this:

Debating what units over perform is going to be a lot more subjective than underperforming. Though underperforming is going to still have a good chunk of opinion in it. 

What do we know underperforms?
- MASC or SC often force mechs to pay for an extra .1 defensive TMM modifier that can’t be sustained and increase the offensive BV modifier more than it should
- MASC and SC is the same issue, but magnified
- Ground speed enhancers and JJs
- Designs with extremely high offensive BV relative to their defensive (fire moth D type of designs)

Grab a design with those features, especially the last two, and you’re going to nearly always find a mech with a bad on-table reputation amongst fans.

Xotl

  • Dominus Erratorum
  • BattleTech Developer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12489
  • Professor of Errata
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #41 on: 30 April 2025, 06:24:03 »
Anything that would require radically recosting every unit in the game is out, unfortunately.  That's why I'm specifically looking for problem mechs rather than asking about flaws in the BV system: so I can see what specifically is affecting them.  Think patches rather than "throw everything out and start over".
« Last Edit: 30 April 2025, 06:27:22 by Xotl »
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Church14

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1608
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #42 on: 30 April 2025, 06:32:31 »
Anything that would require radically recosting every unit in the game is out, unfortunately.  I'm just looking for problem mechs so I can see what specifically is affecting them.  Think patches rather than "throw everything out and start over".

I’d imagine a radical recost of everything would invite too many changes at once to balance and create an entire new set of balance fun to unpack over years

I still think the number one underperformance issue is combining movement aids (TSM, MASX, SC, JJ). Having just one isn’t a major issue. I wonder if anyone could work out how many mechs have at least two of TSM, SC, MASC, and JJ. Like 200 out of the 4k or so mech variants? 300? Because I’m hard pressed, when thinking of absolutely garbage for their BV mechs to come up with one that isn’t using combining movement aids.

So I’ll stick with my original poster child problem mech: Stormwolf.


EDIT: or, I guess, something like a fire moth D where it stacks clan energy weapons and cranks the offensive BV sky high.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2025, 06:35:48 by Church14 »

Xotl

  • Dominus Erratorum
  • BattleTech Developer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12489
  • Professor of Errata
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #43 on: 30 April 2025, 06:35:51 »
I’d imagine a radical recost of everything would invite too many changes at once to balance and create an entire new set of balance fun to unpack over years

Got it in one.
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

Vrakzi

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #44 on: 30 April 2025, 07:07:21 »
I still think the number one underperformance issue is combining movement aids (TSM, MASX, SC, JJ).

And the number one overperformance is combining to-hit modifiers. The common theme here is that combinations create extreme edge-cases, I think.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30141
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #45 on: 30 April 2025, 07:08:00 »
I still think the number one underperformance issue is combining movement aids (TSM, MASX, SC, JJ). Having just one isn’t a major issue. I wonder if anyone could work out how many mechs have at least two of TSM, SC, MASC, and JJ. Like 200 out of the 4k or so mech variants? 300? Because I’m hard pressed, when thinking of absolutely garbage for their BV mechs to come up with one that isn’t using combining movement aids.

So I’ll stick with my original poster child problem mech: Stormwolf.

Lol I would say the Executioner was the original BUT . . .

Again, IMO, the simple fix is throw out the BV increase for BOTH jumping and ground movement.  Instead just apply whichever has the higher BV contribution, jumping or ground, for the simple reason you are applying the highest theoretical benefit.  FREX, say the Executioner Prime gets 200 BV for jumping and 150 for running w/MASC.  Instead of 350 BV for the combined movement costs, you get the highest which is 200.  For the Executioner K? that has MASC & SC which would get 250 BV for running w/ both active, then that design pays 250 BV for ground movement instead of the 200 for jumping and definitely not the 450 for both movement costs combined.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Vrakzi

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #46 on: 30 April 2025, 07:10:13 »
Lol I would say the Executioner was the original BUT . . .

Again, IMO, the simple fix is throw out the BV increase for BOTH jumping and ground movement.  Instead just apply whichever has the higher BV contribution, jumping or ground, for the simple reason you are applying the highest theoretical benefit.  FREX, say the Executioner Prime gets 200 BV for jumping and 150 for running w/MASC.  Instead of 350 BV for the combined movement costs, you get the highest which is 200.  For the Executioner K? that has MASC & SC which would get 250 BV for running w/ both active, then that design pays 250 BV for ground movement instead of the 200 for jumping and definitely not the 450 for both movement costs combined.

But as I pointed out upthread, having the option to choose between them is still more valuable than only having one. I can see a reduction for the combo, but not eliminating the lower one entirely.

Church14

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1608
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #47 on: 30 April 2025, 07:11:04 »
Lol I would say the Executioner was the original BUT . . .
I just meant my original post. The executioner has been an example for a far longer time.

If you could get the executioner to feel right, I imagine you’d have fixed a lot of other designs in the process

wundergoat

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 359
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #48 on: 30 April 2025, 10:38:53 »
I’d make the case that MASC/supercharger BV is too expensive, period.  They increase BV as if the unit simply had a larger engine but all that extra MP is RUN.  A 6/9(12) has the same BV impact as an 8/12, but doesn’t have the option to walk and still get a +3TMM with a 2pt AMM/TMM differential.  Then add the unavoidable risk of critical damage.  Then add the less than 100% uptime.  BV usually assumes a best case scenario no matter how unrealistic, rather than the best *likely* scenario.

As for a unit showing this off, take the Po HV.  The HVAC itself is priced without accounting for the explosion risk, which means the tank gets zero discount for having a 20% chance of not surviving shooting through a single ton of ammo.

Another problem item seeing limited but increasing use is Ferro-Lam armor, and its BV is straight busted.  Reflective and reactive armors pay a 50% BV premium and have downsides compared to only a 20% premium with additional upside for Ferro-Lam.  And that 20% is actually discounted from the least efficient scenario.  It looks like someone saw the 20% damage reduction and figured +20% BV, when in actuality it is a minimum 25% increase in armor effectiveness.  It can take 40% more hits from cERMLs and cMPLs.  Against SRMs it is just as good as reactive.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 30141
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #49 on: 30 April 2025, 11:17:46 »
But as I pointed out upthread, having the option to choose between them is still more valuable than only having one. I can see a reduction for the combo, but not eliminating the lower one entirely.

Choosing is why you still take the higher cost period.  The option does not matter b/c no matter what both will not be used together, so paying the cost for both is not logical.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Vrakzi

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #50 on: 30 April 2025, 11:32:10 »
Choosing is why you still take the higher cost period.  The option does not matter b/c no matter what both will not be used together, so paying the cost for both is not logical.

But having both as options is more powerful than just having the more powerful alone, which is why the second one cannot be free. Discount, maybe, but not free.

wundergoat

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 359
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #51 on: 30 April 2025, 11:39:45 »
But having both as options is more powerful than just having the more powerful alone, which is why the second one cannot be free. Discount, maybe, but not free.

I have to agree.  Is the unit better off having both?  If so, that is additional capability and needs to be accounted for.  MASC allows for better distance covered at lower AMM, jump jets give better freedom of movement and possibly TMM so having both adds capability, therefore the value has to be more than just the most expensive.

Alex Keller

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2444
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #52 on: 30 April 2025, 11:43:13 »
For Inner Sphere machines, the aforementioned TR-1 Wraith is commonly accepted as solid.  I think the GHR-5H Grasshopper, TDR-5SE Thunderbolt, and GLT-4L Guillotine are all similar designs that are quite effective for their BV. 

For Clan machines, the Stormcrow C, with a Large Pulse Laser, 2 Medium Pulse Lasers, and an LB-10X Autocannon is quite effective at 1,881 BV2.  The Nova S is also good, particularly if you don't take a full load of MG ammo. 

TimberwolfD

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 72
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #53 on: 30 April 2025, 19:25:27 »
What units represent benchmarks for perfectly valued Mechs? I'm looking for a L/M/H/A for both IS and Clan across multiple eras.

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2440
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #54 on: 30 April 2025, 19:41:12 »
I have to agree.  Is the unit better off having both?  If so, that is additional capability and needs to be accounted for.  MASC allows for better distance covered at lower AMM, jump jets give better freedom of movement and possibly TMM so having both adds capability, therefore the value has to be more than just the most expensive.
I currently settled on masc speed counting as half, round up, to mimic base jumpjets.  MASC can have a 60% uptime, but 'half rounded up' I chose because its closer to how the formula works for jump jets.  All my propositions are errata level (no rules changes, just BV adjustments), so I didnt want to get too fancy with MASC uptime for people to calculate.

So, for offensive speed, something that moves 6/9/12/6 (shadowcat) currently has the same speed factor as a 8/12/6 (arctic cheetah).  Obviously this is silly, the arctic cheetah is obviously faster over time.  But at the same time, the shadowcat is sometimes faster then a 6/9/6 phawk.

So my adjustment to the speed factor table was to add half (rounded up) of your MASC/JJ, and for every point of jump past walk MP to NOT halve that--So a 6/9/8 mech would go from only 13 speed factor (only 1 up from 6/9/5) to 14.
So in the examples above, with my recommendations the example mechs would have the following speed factor:
Arctic Cheetah: 15 (no change)
Shadow Cat: 14 (was 15)
Phoenix Hawk: 12 (no change)
6/9/8 IJJ mech: 14 (was only 13)
8/12/8 mech: 16 (no change)
10/15/20 Dasher: 18 (was 20)

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2440
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #55 on: 30 April 2025, 19:41:26 »
As for what constitutes a 'radical recost', im obviously gonna disagree on what qualifies as radical.  The weapons and mechs can all be churned through with a spreadsheet to calculate everything all at once regardless of how many changes... or depending on how involved the megamek folks are, you can adjust the calculator they use.  A 'gradual' approach is MUCH more radical I think, as making changes frequently to slowly adjust things is MORE, not less, work.  Further, changing BV values every 6 months is not as good for the customers.

I would propose to roll this out in 2 single steps as a Beta, with 99% of all the changes already done in beta, and after 1 year put out finals where anything that wasnt responding well gets a light touch for the official Errata.

Any other way will be problematic.  IE, lets say we make one single change, that barely touches any issues across the whole game.  "Clan Large Pulse lasers get more expensive".  Its something that everyone should agree with, so no problem there.  But, that involves erratas for techmanual, for every weapon chart across multiple books, and for 173 mech entries out of ~4000, so you are already updating 5% of the entire wacky mech catalog with 1 weapon change--and 1 weapon change is not nearly comprehensive enough.  Add all pulse lasers in, and you go from 5% of the catalog to ~30% with just 1 weapon type being adjusted.

Heck, the MACS/JJ speed factor change would similarly change a big % of the total catalog, so trying to do those 2 community agreed on changes separately (pulse and MASC) feels way worse then just a single time.  And, as you add more commonly agreed on 'simple' issues (heat), you are changing a larger and larger % of the catalog, to the point that its more efficient to just do everything.

Its not like the core formula changing a tiny bit across multiple categories is gonna confuse people more.  The end user on MasterUnitList just sees the final cost, and notes 'oh, this is a few BV more, and this is a few BV less.  Neat'.

Xotl

  • Dominus Erratorum
  • BattleTech Developer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12489
  • Professor of Errata
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #56 on: 30 April 2025, 20:02:29 »
Again, I'm not interested in redoing BV from scratch, with the idea that we'll surely definitely get it right this time and no further rewrites will be required.  I have no doubt that the BV 2.0 team felt that they had gotten it right at last over the BV 1 formula.  I also have no intention of making frequent changes: I'm looking at a singular patch to some of the worst outliers, while still using the bones of the existing system so that people don't have to learn an entirely new meta.  That you can do a radical rework on a spreadsheet does not make it any less radical.

Apologies, but I would just like to hear about people's picks for best and worst mechs.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2025, 20:07:23 by Xotl »
3028-3057 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

DevianID

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2440
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #57 on: 30 April 2025, 21:10:20 »
Best mech: Every mech with any accuracy bonuses.  Pulse lasers being #2, VSPLs #1 cause of the very broken pricing they have.  Artillery/AE accuracy #3, not because of it being worse (its even more broken then pulse), but it being rightfully quarantined behind the 'advanced tech' wall lowers its occurrence in the wild.

Also Best Mech: Every mech with a significant jump TMM, especially with IJJ/Partial wing.

Worst Mech: Mechs with mobility mismatches, including mobility/range mismatches or jump/masc/superchargers.

Also Worst Mech: Mechs with almost any overheat.

There are thousands and thousands of mechs, with 30% having pulse weapons alone.  Almost all mentioned fall into one of the 4 sweeping categories above.  I guess I dont understand the point of specifically saying 'Wraith' and not also mentioning the hundreds of 'Wraith-likes', such as phoenix hawks and firestarter omnis and vapor eagles on and on.  But I already picked it before, and said my piece, so I should climb down from my soapbox now.

Karasu

  • Mecharcheologist by appointment
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 877
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #58 on: 01 May 2025, 00:07:24 »
I still think the number one underperformance issue is combining movement aids (TSM, MASX, SC, JJ). Having just one isn’t a major issue. I wonder if anyone could work out how many mechs have at least two of TSM, SC, MASC, and JJ. Like 200 out of the 4k or so mech variants? 300? Because I’m hard pressed, when thinking of absolutely garbage for their BV mechs to come up with one that isn’t using combining movement aids.

From my records, count of Mechs with multiple of Jump, MASC, Supercharger, TSM.
3 - 15 Mechs
2 - ~200 Mechs

Blkbr2020

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: Battle Value: The Best and Worst Mech Picks
« Reply #59 on: 01 May 2025, 02:14:46 »
Summoner A, 2 tons SRM ammo, 1 ton of gauss ammo

Anything from old TROs with multiple tons of AMS ammo for a single AMS

Plenty of other mecha with 1 ton ammo on the main gun and extra ammo for secondary weapons. Summoner M also springs to mind.