Poll

What would be your preferred RAF Successor?

A Star League Regular Army guarding Terran Zone
9 (25.7%)
A Mercenary Brigade - ala the ELH
5 (14.3%)
A rump state in exile
10 (28.6%)
An FWL mini-state like the Augustine Alliance
5 (14.3%)
A FS March state, like a Republic March
6 (17.1%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Author Topic: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread  (Read 78034 times)

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1350 on: 23 June 2024, 13:27:34 »
Which atrocities?  I remember only one reprisal in Australia?  Even the conquest of the Empire was far less transformative than the original Wolf OZ?

Alaric has massacred civilians before in retaliation for resistance movements. He murdered 5,000 men, women, and children on Helm for a single warrior. He also massacred the Silver Hawk Irregulars.

That's not to even get into all the propaganda Terrans have been fed for probably a century at this point about the nightmarish Clanners who want to conquer them. In most of their minds Alaric and Malvina are one in the same, both from the same system with all the same capabilities.

The way Clan Wolf Elementals shut down the Terran News shows upon Stone's surrender isn't going to do them any favors either.

I'm still hoping Ghost Knights get their hands on the hospital footage of Alaric and Chance snuffing out a defenseless Stone in bed. And then broadcast during an Alaric speech.
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Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1351 on: 23 June 2024, 16:16:03 »
Which atrocities?  I remember only one reprisal in Australia?  Even the conquest of the Empire was far less transformative than the original Wolf OZ?

Malvina has spent a decade burning anything under her power into ash.  She wasn't holding back on Terra and was busy orbitally striking the capital.  The Wolves stopped her bombardments, defeated her Falcons and ended her life.  Their one velvet glove reprisal is going to look mild in comparison to Malvinas work...  And again the Cappies are turning population less than a jump from Terra into servitors.  These aren't distant lands, but the home plants of a exRAF vets less than a jump away.  While the Wolves are invaders and not going to be loved by the general population, they have been clearly painted as the least awful option on the table.

It's incorrect to assume a single type of civilian life under a Clan controlled state.  The Bears, Raven, Former Republic Clanners, Leftover Cats & Sea Foxes, Sudetan Falcons, have all established states that have come to détente with their IS populations.  The description of clan life in the homeward enclaves, from 20-25year old books is no longer the only, or even the best description of how the IS clan organize themselves.
On at least three separate occasions, Alaric has ordered the slaughter of surrendered troops.

Wolves forced an RAF unit to die in the desert from lack of water. Close to 5000 people in total

Alaric directly ordered massacred civilians in Australia

One planet now in the Empire was going to see millions starve to death because Alaric demanded the jumpships for the invasion. Only reason they didn’t was FWL found them first.

Another planet had the wolves specifically target water pumps that kept a city from catastrophically flooding, so there will likely be hundred or thousands dead there.

Alaric has covered up the murders of 4 different political rivals now.


Now, relevant to your point, how much does the Terran public know regarding these?
Guaranteed: The slaughter of Australian civilians.
Could have learned about: In theory, all of the massacring of surrender troops, forcing the RAF unit to die in the desert, the murder of Stone.
Definitely don’t: the two events from EA are in response to Alaric abandoning the Empire. I can’t see those being known about. Too recent and too far away. The murder of Seth Ward and KSD. Though if anything, finding out Alaric murdered KSD might raise his stock with the sphere.


And you’re right. Malvina certainly made no friends on Terra and that’s why some RAF joining up with the wolves is believable, if extreme. Which, it was an extreme moment. Literally lesser of two evils.

Now the wolves have taken those mass murdering Mongols as pets. If the public sees no trials, no punitive measures for the Mongol atrocities, that’s going to come off as tacit approval. That should give wolves a problem if it isn’t dealt with. Then you have the wolves intentional targeting of civilians, the rumored (maybe confirmed) murder of Stone. There’s a lot less daylight between who’s worse, wolves or Capellans. There’s a couple ways wolves could run Terra and they all affect how the public should take the occupation. So depends where CGL goes with iKEO if it’s believable to get any more RAF recruits

Geg

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1352 on: 23 June 2024, 23:25:44 »
The slaughter of Australian civilians.

It was hardly a slaughter

Quote
On T+4 Alaric and his Silver Keshik traveled to Atitjere via DropShip and gave the inhabitants one hour to evacuate . Once the hour was up, Alaric recorded a message to the people of Terra, claiming that cowardly partisan attacks would not be tolerated, and that any community found harboring guerrillas would be razed . Wolf artillery and aerospace bombing runs pummeled the largely abandoned settlement until nothing but burning structures remained.   -- ilClan pg. 25

I don't want to go around arguing that Alaric is some saint and people should love him. He's a bastard, that killed his mother and is on track to have his hubris be his undoing.  The argument is that there is enough going on around Terra, to motivate some of the ex-Republicans to work with the Wolves to stand up their new ilClan state, which squares with what we know about New Earth, the 3rd League force, and Rays comment about the Terrans getting a say.

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1353 on: 24 June 2024, 00:57:37 »
The way Clan Wolf Elementals shut down the Terran News shows upon Stone's surrender isn't going to do them any favors either.

Those weren't Wolves, those were Falcons.
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Techmarine123

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1354 on: 24 June 2024, 01:57:29 »
Regarding the "slaughter" of civilians in Australia. We are told that it was a small settlement, and Alaric gave them an hour to evacuate before destroying the "largely abandoned" settlement. Same in South East Asia where a village poisoned food supplies. Not ideal but way, way less bad than the Jade Falcons executing everyone who surrendered regardless of their actions.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1355 on: 24 June 2024, 03:34:58 »
Let's not forget how the Wolves burned down the jungles of Vietnam to uncover the hidden troops. And unlike the real Vietnam War it worked. Yes that was a byproduct of war but you think people will forget this desecration of their home planet? Oh and don't forget how they burned down parts of Canada during the trial

And let's not forget the massive ruin that is Geneva or how how the Falcons treated Terra. Yes those were Falcons but on the other hand you might get a "clanner are techno fascists regardless what furry animal they stitch on their unforms" sentiment. And then there is this: WHO got the Falcons to Terra? That was Alaric. We know from Ilclan that several messages are spread all over Terra and this is one of them. So you might get a "Oh it was this ****** that brought the mongols here?" sentiment.

And let's not forget how the Wolves treat their Empire subjects. EA gave a look into that and Redemption Rites extended on that. Like that young Dragoon adoptee who said his family was disowned by the Wolves despite them fulfilling the Wolves demands. And it also shows that you might have a ticking time bomb on your hand as he stated I would have made it into the warriors ranks and then make things right. Making things right from his sensibilities vs Clan sensibilities. A conflict that Alaric or whoever will lead in the future will have to solve lest you get a new civil war.   

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1356 on: 24 June 2024, 03:38:46 »


That's not to even get into all the propaganda Terrans have been fed for probably a century at this point about the nightmarish Clanners who want to conquer them. In most of their minds Alaric and Malvina are one in the same, both from the same system with all the same capabilities.
.

except how much anti-clan propagnada WHERE Terrans fed under the Republic? Remember the clans where part of the colaition, and there where clan enclaves in the ROTS so chances are for the bulk of the Republic's life, the anti-clan propaganda hasnt likely been partiuclarly strong eaither way. until fairly recently, now with that said, here's what Propaganda we know Terra has had FOR CENTURIES.

It doesn't matter what the regime was, comstar, the word of blake, the republic, and now the clans, the message has always been the same "the great houses tore apart the star league, and destroyed the hegemony, they'll come for you too and only we can protect you"

This ahs been a CONSTANT in terran propaganda of EVERY regime since the fall of the Star League. that the great houses are bloody handed, bloody minded conquerers who will move in, conquer and strip terra of all that is "good and great" Comstar, the word, the republic and all the clans provide a alternative to being conquered by a great house, a chance to protect Terra, and maybe just maybe, one day when the oppertunity arises to "Restore Terra to it's rightful position" in fact comstar and the word for centuries basicly promised they'd restroe the star league when the time was right, the ROTS offered an alterntive of "well maybe we can manage to live in peace" (an alternative that failed. when the ROTS was weak, the houses pounced) but ultimately still had the vision of a "terra lead inner sphere" the wolves will simply promise the same, and "this time we'll do so with military force". And it's something the Terrans might just get behind. I can certainly see them siding with the wolves against the Capellans, for those yammering about propaganda etc, kindly remember that the clans where coalition members, settled enclaves in the Republic etc.

Meanwhile the Capellans have always been the enemy.


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Techmarine123

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1357 on: 24 June 2024, 05:25:05 »
Yep, the Capellan's since the founding of the Republic have been enemy number one. Only great house to not join or contribute to Stone's Coalition, only great house to not sign the treaty forming the Republic. Invaded the Republic in 3081 and 3110s. Even in 3151 and 3152 Stone viewed them as the biggest threat to the Republic. The Wolves actually contributed significant forces to Stone's coalition as well, at least three galaxies, and Delta galaxy even joined the republic. The Clans lost close to twenty warships in Operation SCOUR, and half the Nova Cat touman joined the Republic.

That doesn't mean that the citizens of the Republic will be super keen to fight for the guys who just conquered them, but Clan Wolf contrasts pretty well with the Jade Falcons and they did publicly stop the JF from orbitally bombarding Terra. It definitely seems plausible, if written well.

Geg

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1358 on: 24 June 2024, 08:03:49 »
except how much anti-clan propagnada WHERE Terrans fed under the Republic? Remember the clans where part of the colaition, and there where clan enclaves in the ROTS so chances are for the bulk of the Republic's life, the anti-clan propaganda hasnt likely been partiuclarly strong eaither way. until fairly recently, now with that said, here's what Propaganda we know Terra has had FOR CENTURIES.

<snip>

Meanwhile the Capellans have always been the enemy.

This is spot on.  Clan Leaders are Senators, the Republics staunchest ally is a Clan lead state. The Republic was founded in an anti-WoB conflict, and the Clanners were the primary target of the WoB fanaticism. As Republic minority culture, the Clans would have been no more vilified by the state than any of the other House culture minorities.  On the international scale, in the 80 years ahead of the blackout, all the states boarding the original OZs had integrated at least of portion of Clan directly into their states.  After the Great Refusal, SCOUR and the Arms reduction plan, Clan states had effectively become integrated into the IS great power diplomatic framework.    All the propaganda would have been targeted at the states that flouted Stone's international treaties, and engaged in on going boarder conflicts with the Republic...  aka Liao.
« Last Edit: 24 June 2024, 08:34:35 by Geg »

Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1359 on: 24 June 2024, 10:50:11 »
except how much anti-clan propagnada WHERE Terrans fed under the Republic? Remember the clans where part of the colaition, and there where clan enclaves in the ROTS so chances are for the bulk of the Republic's life, the anti-clan propaganda hasnt likely been partiuclarly strong eaither way. until fairly recently, now with that said, here's what Propaganda we know Terra has had FOR CENTURIES.

Meanwhile the Capellans have always been the enemy.
We have Stone in HotW saying he’d done his work and made sure Alaric would find Terra a hostile planet. This would be right before death-by-pillow. It’s one data point, but also the only data point regarding Terra we have near this timeframe.

Which, either Stone is talking about a decade of propaganda vilifying Wolves (maybe all the clans outside the sphere. Dunno) or he’s talking about efforts he put in place pre-retirement (so pre-3130]. Not actually sure.

What’s that mean? Well, Terra should hate the wolves, falcons, nuJags (doesn’t matter really if public knows they were once Fidelis or not), and Capellans. Wolves might manage a “lesser of two evils” to recruit a few against Capellans, but it depends heavily on how CGL decides Alaric tried to run Terra.

Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1360 on: 24 June 2024, 11:30:09 »
The argument is that there is enough going on around Terra, to motivate some of the ex-Republicans to work with the Wolves to stand up their new ilClan state, which squares with what we know about New Earth, the 3rd League force, and Rays comment about the Terrans getting a say.
Stepping out of universe a moment, since your last line here is rather critical.

I really do wonder how “Terrans getting a say,” “RotS Spiritual Successor,” and the current situation of Wolves and RotS-indoctrinated Terra having zero reason to like or trust each other will play out. I can see ways forward, but it all really comes back to Wolves having to make concessions - possibly major ones - to Terra before getting any sort of real army from them, and getting not much of one at first.

If wolves get an ex-RAF army immediately as their new SLDF general, it’s incredibly narratively unsatisfying. Wolves go to Terra, get an impossible win, and then just gain a pile of IS regiments to secure a position of strength around Terra? That level of continued success is going to make players check out of the era because it rewards everything the player base is sick of for DA Wolves. There’s also nothin in this setup that allows for much of an independent RotS successor.



If I was trying to write this, the first, most critical thing is the wolves need to actually stumble. (And no, losing 40+ clusters on Terra doesn’t count when those clusters only existed to let the wolves take Terra.) They need to try to do this alone and fail. Otherwise… what’s the point of a Star League if a single nation keeps winning? I’d write the wolves breaking even or losing slightly to the Capellans. We need to see a body count for both. They are both still too strong. Once reduced to a critical level, then have the wolves compromise. Have them go to ex-RAF and ex Republic people. Have them make concession to other clans in the league. Cause then you have an actual League, and not the clan wolf fan club. That’s the most engaging path forward I can see that ticks the boxes we’ve been told to expect

Also, personally, I don’t normally cheer for “just kill a character,” but the RotS successor being answerable to General of the Armies Anastasia Kerensky probably needs to go. Kill her, send her off, or make her irrelevant. I don’t care which.

Geg

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1361 on: 24 June 2024, 14:36:14 »
Stepping out of universe a moment, since your last line here is rather critical.

I really do wonder how “Terrans getting a say,” “RotS Spiritual Successor,” and the current situation of Wolves and RotS-indoctrinated Terra having zero reason to like or trust each other will play out. I can see ways forward, but it all really comes back to Wolves having to make concessions - possibly major ones - to Terra before getting any sort of real army from them, and getting not much of one at first.

My money is on the RAF Spiritual Successor being something like the Hellion Galaxy.  An exRAF something organized under the 3rd League.  Starting off with Clanner officers and then shifting over to more native Freeborn Terrans.  It doesn't need to be a huge force.   Just enough to keep things stable around Terra after fighting CapCon locally and the FWL back in the Empire.

If wolves get an ex-RAF army immediately as their new SLDF general, it’s incredibly narratively unsatisfying. Wolves go to Terra, get an impossible win, and then just gain a pile of IS regiments to secure a position of strength around Terra? That level of continued success is going to make players check out of the era because it rewards everything the player base is sick of for DA Wolves. There’s also nothin in this setup that allows for much of an independent RotS successor.

If I was trying to write this, the first, most critical thing is the wolves need to actually stumble. (And no, losing 40+ clusters on Terra doesn’t count when those clusters only existed to let the wolves take Terra.) They need to try to do this alone and fail. Otherwise… what’s the point of a Star League if a single nation keeps winning? I’d write the wolves breaking even or losing slightly to the Capellans. We need to see a body count for both. They are both still too strong. Once reduced to a critical level, then have the wolves compromise. Have them go to ex-RAF and ex Republic people. Have them make concession to other clans in the league. Cause then you have an actual League, and not the clan wolf fan club. That’s the most engaging path forward I can see that ticks the boxes we’ve been told to expect

Also, personally, I don’t normally cheer for “just kill a character,” but the RotS successor being answerable to General of the Armies Anastasia Kerensky probably needs to go. Kill her, send her off, or make her irrelevant. I don’t care which.

I am expecting Alarics death or disgrace to be the catalyst the forces ilClan / Wolves to reorganize.  The resulting state doesn't need to be overly strong.  Nor does the new League need to be all that League like. We know the pitch for Trial of Bloodright, is what if Alaric created a Star League but nobody came. The ilClan doesn't need to be glorious. It could be a bunch of recently decapitated armies trying to figure out how to not get totally f****d and realizing they have become best friends along the way.
« Last Edit: 24 June 2024, 14:40:05 by Geg »

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1362 on: 24 June 2024, 18:58:33 »
Those weren't Wolves, those were Falcons.

IF Terra ever finds out Alaric invited the Falcons to Terra, that's not going to be good for him.
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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1363 on: 24 June 2024, 19:15:24 »
The fact that he absorbed the remaining Falcons ought to hurt him enough.
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Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1364 on: 24 June 2024, 21:40:25 »
IF Terra ever finds out Alaric invited the Falcons to Terra, that's not going to be good for him.
Wouldn't like... the entire High Command of the RAF know that? Like most of the paladins, plus some ghost knights, Levin, Tucker, how many aids? That's assuming Stone didn't tell even more as a sort of motivator "we brought the wolves for a trap" kind of thing?

Also, the entire upper command of clan wolf would know. Bare minimum the super friends. But I have to imagine aids, some of the galaxy commanders. Anyone who helped plan any stage of the operation.

I can't imagine Malvina shut up about it. I can see her raging to her command elements over being invited.

I don't know how that doesn't come out.

The fact that he absorbed the remaining Falcons ought to hurt him enough.
If iKEO becomes anything revolving around Terran reaction to the Wolf occupation, I really want this to be a plot point. It's gonna feel too easy if it isn't

Cannonshop

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1365 on: 24 June 2024, 21:49:21 »
IF Terra ever finds out Alaric invited the Falcons to Terra, that's not going to be good for him.

They'll forgive him.  They always forgive.

Word of Blake used nukes ON terra, they forgave 'em and stone was able to pardon a shit ton of them.  They'll forgive Alaric, after all, the place has been the site of more than one catastrophic takeover since 2766...

Collectively, the Terrans are like that one girl you knew in highschool, or college, who might lose an abusive boyfriend, but the next guy's just as bad and she's just as hooked.  The only real question is if their mood is more 'He can change-I can change him' or 'I deserve it because I'm a terrible person'.

Semi-seriously, look at the past relationships;

The Camerons weren't really that bad, but Amaris?  then Kerensky left them, Comstar isolated them for decades, gaslighting them the whole time, Word of Blake was like Comstar's nastier and more sadistic little brother and they took right to him, then Stone, but what did Stone do? yeah, that's right, isolated them again and ran through the savings accounts while ultimately betraying them.

The terrans must like the abuse, they keep hooking up with it in one form or another and they never revolt on their own-they never kick the bastards out themselves.

so, they'll forgive Alaric, just like they forgave every other abusive spouse they've ever had.
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Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1366 on: 24 June 2024, 21:57:47 »
My money is on the RAF Spiritual Successor being something like the Hellion Galaxy.  An exRAF something organized under the 3rd League.  Starting off with Clanner officers and then shifting over to more native Freeborn Terrans.  It doesn't need to be a huge force.   Just enough to keep things stable around Terra after fighting CapCon locally and the FWL back in the Empire.

I am expecting Alarics death or disgrace to be the catalyst the forces ilClan / Wolves to reorganize.  The resulting state doesn't need to be overly strong.  Nor does the new League need to be all that League like. We know the pitch for Trial of Bloodright, is what if Alaric created a Star League but nobody came. The ilClan doesn't need to be glorious. It could be a bunch of recently decapitated armies trying to figure out how to not get totally f****d and realizing they have become best friends along the way.
A "Republic galaxy" would be pretty underwhelming. I can't see Ray telling us there will be a spiritual successor and give us just that. I do think it'll be whatever manages Terra for the wolves (the Hegemony alternate), but I have a lot of questions about what possible shape that could take.

Regarding Alaric dying... I would save his death for later when the initial fallout has settled and we need the next tire fire for the ilClan. You get a lot more out of him as a character if you show him being completely out of his depth and forced to compromise on his idealistic vision of clan wolf as the god-clan. Show him learning very, very painful lessons. Show his idealism reducing the Wolves to a component of the League instead of the backbone and core of it. (This would be where the RotS successor comes, well not ascendent, but far more important than it was and with real agency again)

Once he's learned that he in fact was not the right man to be Star Lord, then he can die in some future story. And I hope he never names a successor (or said successor dies protecting him just before he goes) because that's a juicy plot thread to run down unlike any other you can throw at the clans for a long time. have them all have to sit and together come to terms with mess Alaric made.

Alaric is a terrible character right now, but he can be made into a good heel for the era. 

Geg

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1367 on: 24 June 2024, 22:51:37 »
A "Republic galaxy" would be pretty underwhelming. I can't see Ray telling us there will be a spiritual successor and give us just that. I do think it'll be whatever manages Terra for the wolves (the Hegemony alternate), but I have a lot of questions about what possible shape that could take.

The last Reddit AMA, had Ray saying no to a Republic zombie faction, which to me rules out the FWL Member state and some sort of ilClan member state.  Any rump state near the center of the IS wouldn't last very long without being basically a puppet of someone else (aka Zombie faction).

So that leaves some sort of force... aka the Republic Galaxy.  Or maybe some institutions, like the Republic Senate, or the Knights and Paladins, living on.

Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1368 on: 25 June 2024, 09:21:34 »
The last Reddit AMA, had Ray saying no to a Republic zombie faction, which to me rules out the FWL Member state and some sort of ilClan member state.  Any rump state near the center of the IS wouldn't last very long without being basically a puppet of someone else (aka Zombie faction).

So that leaves some sort of force... aka the Republic Galaxy.  Or maybe some institutions, like the Republic Senate, or the Knights and Paladins, living on.
In theory, the Augustine Alliance could rise to something more, but I doubt it. Another new RotS-based FWL substate seems like a bad idea narratively given that the current one barely warrants attention. Which is fair, there's honestly more engaging FWL stories to tell for CGL to focus on.

My impression of what Ray meant by zombie faction is something like the nuJaguars. A faction that by every measure is dead, and bafflingly, in spite of the plot, comes back to life. RotS is dead, RotS in name and spirit isn't coming back. I took that as Ray isn't going to greenlight something like a new RotS based out of Northwind that somehow fights off DCMS, CCAF, ilClan, and other predation. That's why he cached it as spiritual successor.

I think it's the Hegemony IIC. But I share the same wariness that any state underneath Alaric would just be a puppet. The only way I see it have agency is my earlier theories about Wolves taking serious losses and scrambling to sort out how they will recover. You could write a path less painful for the wolves that involves Terra up front calling Alaric's bluff that he can occupy Terra if Terra doesn't fold and cooperate. Essentially, Levin or some other remaining high level RAF explains that wolves must make concessions or spend the next twenty years forced to dedicate a huge portion of their faux-League to occupying Terra. But that option feels... too easy? I dunno. The nitty gritty of that execution would matter significantly.

Geg

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1369 on: 25 June 2024, 11:13:03 »
But that option feels... too easy? I dunno. The nitty gritty of that execution would matter significantly.

There is no amount of suffering high enough for Alaric and the Wolves that would be enough to satisfy some people.
« Last Edit: 25 June 2024, 22:31:16 by Geg »

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1370 on: 25 June 2024, 15:34:02 »
There is no amount of suffering high enough for Alaric and the Wolves that would enough to satisfy some people.

True

At this point it's just online meme circlejerk

Writers should just tell the story and ignore the white noise







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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1371 on: 25 June 2024, 19:32:40 »
There is no amount of suffering high enough for Alaric and the Wolves that would enough to satisfy some people.

Correct.  The destruction of a faction in fiction should feel and be earned-not so much by the faction being destroyed, (those always come back-see "Clan Smoke Jaguar") but by the forces that destroy it. 

Basic rule of heroic action fiction (and BT is all about heroic action fiction) is that "It ain't heroic if it's easy".

This goes along with "a Sacrifice isn't a Sacrifice if you don't value what, or who, you're losing-if it doesn't hurt it's not a sacrifice."

For an epic event?  HoTW was completely painless for Alaric and his wolves (None of their losses actually were losses, nothing in the aftermath actually hurts), and the opposition was authorially castrated to the point of being worthless as an adversary OR antagonist.

Best way to put it, is that HoTW was like watching a 300 pound heavyweight champion beating up a mentally disabled toddler, then being expected to root for the boxer.
 
There's going to be some negative reactions to that, even from people who deeply enjoyed deconstructing and vilifying the Republic *(mostly for the same reasons-the win wasn't earned.)

so yeah, there needs to be some genuine suffering there, some actual sacrifice, some reason not to go watch futbol on ESPN instead.
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Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1372 on: 25 June 2024, 23:15:19 »
There is no amount of suffering high enough for Alaric and the Wolves that would be enough to satisfy some people.

True

At this point it's just online meme circlejerk

Writers should just tell the story and ignore the white noise

Yeah, the authors have to ignore the reactionary “wolves must die” stuff. I know I was that reactionary at first, so I don’t exactly have the high ground here. Still, the single thought “must suffer” stuff or “harm the faction harming my team” isn’t helpful or constructive.   

That said, they do need to listen to the fanbase overall. Forcing a wildly unpopular plotline to continue in a direction that the majority finds disengaging is likely a lose lose. Writers have to figure out how to filter out the good feedback from the bad, and at a minimum listen to it. Sometimes the answer is carry through because it will pay off later. Sometimes, to drop or alter plot lines that are just received poorly or badly thought out.

I think the writing team has listened and seen that “RotS dies, and the RAF gleefully join the wolves to become their agency-less mooks” is one of those threads to alter, and they know “lupus delenda est” is also equally unhelpful.

We’ll see in… a month? Trial by Birthright will be our first glimpse.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1373 on: 25 June 2024, 23:21:39 »
I'm quite certain that my complaints on this forum have precisely as much influence about what the writers will do as screaming at the ref over a call while watching a football game on the TV does.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Cannonshop

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1374 on: 26 June 2024, 08:02:07 »
I'm quite certain that my complaints on this forum have precisely as much influence about what the writers will do as screaming at the ref over a call while watching a football game on the TV does.

Wow, you're powerful if you've got that much influence. (Badump-Tissh!!!)

Fact is, by the time any of us are even AWARE of what's happening, it's been set in stone for six months or more...and that's when they go loose on the planning, otherwise it's complaining about things decided five to ten years ago.

In the case of Clan Wolf being ilClan, more like twenty to thirty.  The flag on that play was laid down when Stackpole was still a young writer alternating between Battletech and Star Wars.

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monbvol

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1375 on: 26 June 2024, 08:25:02 »
To be honest I don't think there is a win condition to be had when it comes to the RotS that will be satisfactory, at least not without substantially changing at least two novels and at least one sourcebook that have already been published, and as much as it may possibly shock some people I do consider that a shame.

Geg

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1376 on: 26 June 2024, 08:56:22 »
I'm quite certain that my complaints on this forum have precisely as much influence about what the writers will do as screaming at the ref over a call while watching a football game on the TV does.

A DVRed football game from last season.

Cannonshop

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1377 on: 26 June 2024, 13:57:12 »
A DVRed football game from last season.

there, that's about the level of influence anyone on these boards who isn't somehow Catalyst Staff has when they post here.

but there's something of an aside I'm going to point out.

The problem of the Genius character, written by a person of normal intelligence.  To show the genius is a genius, requires either:

(A) hours of research, consulting with experts, and maybe talking the problem over with someone(s) smarter than the writer for the writer to get that brilliance across.  This is part of what separates good mystery writers from hacks, but it applies in science fiction and fantasy as much.

(B) the much more common method-dumb down everyone around or against them until their normal behavior looks supremely brilliant and insightful.  This is what fans call "Stupid juice" (or variations thereof).  It's Hard to write someone who's smarter than you are, in a field where you're not an expert.


more often than not, if you want to avoid being known for option (B) you need to review the Evil Overlord list as if it were written as a guide for yourself. BLP didn't do this when he wrote Hour of The Wolf, and it shows.
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Church14

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1378 on: 26 June 2024, 17:15:03 »
Either
1)  you do your research so the character is actually smarter
2) Everyone else has to be reduced in intelligence. This works in comedies.
3) you can kind of cheat it by them not being actually smarter, they just reach the average intelligence conclusion quickly and move before others do. .

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread
« Reply #1379 on: 26 June 2024, 17:49:49 »
Or you only go into general and abstract terms about how the smart person saw their opponent's trap coming and was already prepared to counter it, without going into details.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

 

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