Are NARC Beacons obsolete or do they still have their niche uses?

[garhkal]

So a 4/6 being a fire magnet survives longer than a 12/18 speed VTOL? Maybe on your table. :)

Depends on the size of the playing field and the terrain, as well. But I can't imagine a scenario where a 4/6 is far enough ahead of other 4/6 and 3/5 units that it can NARC something and benefit an entire Lance behind it. Especially in a case where IDF is the preferred tactic.

Assuming your illustrative army is facing an equal-BV force, that's 2 opposing Lances firing into 1 Lance of line 'Mechs as they move into short range to tag something with a NARC pod. With fire support straggling behind in Medium or Long range?

I'd take that scenario any day of the week. That NARC unit would be dust before it did very much.

Many heavies can do a 5/8 move, and have armor to get into range to put the narc to use..  Or even go with a 6/9/6 medium..

[truetanker]

Narcs are great, just remember that you can use them to supplement your physicals!

Armless or even handless mechs can't remove Narcs! (+2) And if you fire at one with hands, remember to get into physical fast to stop them from attempting to detaching said Narc round! Now that stop, drop and roll could possible help, but would they in a combat turn, with it's own PSR set!

TT

[Empyrus]

Only iNarc pods can be removed.

[Talen5000]

I'm surprised that NARC wasn't a straight field swap for many SRM-6 toting mechs in universe considering most of them would be in well supported lances or units that could take advantage of the compatible warheads, like a Javelin, Commando, Whitworth, (Trebuchet has a NARC loadout already) Hunchback, to name a few.

I'm not.

To me...NARC has always been one of those items that were overbalanced.

Heavy...short ranged...the same bonus as Artemis IV.

It makes sense in universe.....you have a couple of NARC machines rather than refit the entire force with Artemis IV; you just ship in NARC seekers.

But the NARC system itself is too limited to be truly attractive in a gaming environment. Not saying NARC can't be used successfully or doesn't have a place, but it doesn't do enough to make it attractive over other options.

[glitterboy2098]

Many heavies can do a 5/8 move, and have armor to get into range to put the narc to use..  Or even go with a 6/9/6 medium..

Pretty much. But even slower stuff like an orion or stalker advancing with three other assaults or heavies at its shoulders is going to be able hang in combat long enough to get a pod on all the targets.. Plus they have the firepower that the narc pod is often ignored.. Until the massed lrm volleys from the archers or catapults come in.
But something like a raven or strider is just going to be given disproportionate attention because that Narc is pretty much the only threat it has, and it doesn't have the toughness to survive getting in close enough.

[Alsadius]

Narc isn't great in lance-scale combat, and only really comes into its own at the company scale or larger. Most people don't play company scale, and when they do it's often not purpose-built formations that can take advantage of it. If you have a few Artemis systems kicking around on the mechs you scrounged(which you probably will, because it's super-common), would you really bother trying to re-equip for Narc?

[Crow]

It has occurred to me that one might load smoke rounds into the LRM5 of the Kintaro, allowing it to cover its approach and retreat. So the design might not be as bad as it appears. Still, I wish it had MASC...

[Hellraiser]

Narc isn't great in lance-scale combat, and only really comes into its own at the company scale or larger. Most people don't play company scale,

So true here.

Using tanks as the example.

A mixed Platoon of Zephyr-Regular/Royal or Drillsons + Scimitar-3050 depending on the era teamed up with a Platoon of LRM Carriers & 3rd Platoon of Manticores makes for a nasty support group.


Using Mechs.....   I love the 3039 Jenner-Grace as a NARC Spotter, but a Hitman/Owens also works.  (Kurita has the best spotters for NARC IMHO)
But take 2-3 of those in a Light lance escorted by Pixie(s) &/or a Spider/Raptor.

Then for your LRM big boys you use Archers, Longbows, Crusaders, etc etc.
Finally a midsized lance centered around Griffins, Whitworths, Centurions & Wolverines for a solid mix of speed/range/firepower.

Only a few of the chassis even need to be Upgraded tech, most can still be L1 models.  But you'll rain down LRMs all day with increased accuracy.


It doesn't work quite as well when trying to do that with only a single lance.

Maybe the above Jenner/Owens with a 3050 Treb for backup Narc,  then support them with 3025 Catapult & Longbow.  Should make for solid mix but it just doesn't have the same feel w/o being a full company.

[mbear]

Question: Can ELRMs use Narc-compatible ammo?

[Sartris]

No specialty ammo unfortunately

[CDAT]

No specialty ammo unfortunately

And this is is why I am not a fan of any of them, I know that you can use specialty ammo with Artemis IV, you just lose the bonus. But why spend the tonnage if you are not going to use it. As for NARC when it is around so is ECM, and I just find it not worth it.

[Empyrus]

The Narc is arguably more forgiving with ECM than the Artemis IV. For one thing, only one 'Mech pays the weight. And SRMs and LRMs with Narc homing work normally in absence of Narc beacons, so you're not losing anything loading them even if it is unlikely you'll get use of them. So, what you do is that you Narc enemies (costs zero heat so you're not losing anything by firing it), and then you get the bonus should an enemy leave ECM area or otherwise lose ECM (assuming you got ammo left).

Alternatively, the 'Mech with Narc launcher loads it with explosive pods should you expect ECM from the enemy. It is not an ideal weapon but it is better than having completely wasted tonnage like Artemis IV would be in ECM heavy game.

[Sir Chaos]

Alternatively, the 'Mech with Narc launcher loads it with explosive pods should you expect ECM from the enemy. It is not an ideal weapon but it is better than having completely wasted tonnage like Artemis IV would be in ECM heavy game.

It´s a single 4 point hit from a weapon that weights 3 tons plus ammo. It´s a joke. At least with Artemis IV, you don´t kid yourself into thinking it´s worth anything in an ECM environment.

[Weirdo]

If you suspect you'll be facing lots of ECM, bring ARADs. Kill the ECM(or scare the other guy into turning it off), then your NARC and Artemis works just fine.

[Empyrus]

It´s a single 4 point hit from a weapon that weights 3 tons plus ammo. It´s a joke. At least with Artemis IV, you don´t kid yourself into thinking it´s worth anything in an ECM environment.

The point was, if there's ECM around (and experimental tech is out of question so no ARADs like Weirdo suggests), enough you can't get rid of it, then you might as well load the Narc with explosive pods if one or more of your 'Mechs have Narc launchers for whatever reason.
Using them is not waste if you're having that tonnage in the first place. Artemis can't be repurposed, so it is worse here.

[Col Toda]

I do not like them at all . I preffer TAG more versatile. I have Never seen NARC used with enough efficacy to justify ever using it. After 3068 ECM is so common ARAAD missile ammo is just more efficient.

[Hellraiser]

Okay,  I have to ask.

In a typical battle..... say 8 v 8 ...  Exactly how many ECM are you seeing on the battlefield?

Short of a boatload of Custom units I don't see that much.

Sure, you get the occasional game where ECM is massive, I saw a GM force once that through luck had like 3-5 of them in less than a company of units, but most games I see 0-2 per side.

The only time I pick units specifically for the ECM is when I am also using C3 & want to protect the network and even then its not every unit but usually 1 around the spotters & 1-2 near the masters.

I find NARC quite useful even with some ECM as it only effects if the target is covered since the missiles reacquire after passing through the bubble.

From a BV standpoint its also cheaper than fielding ECM

[Weirdo]

Concur. 0-2 seems to be the average I see as well, though to be fair C3 doesn't see very common use in our games either. If more people used C3 on a regular basis, I'd probably see folks choose units for their ECM, instead of ECM being a happy accident.

[Sartris]

it depends on how intentional you are about it in your forcebuilding - there are about 450 mechs with it so most factions and eras are going to have options. Also production era matters - a good chunk of the units with an ECM suite originate in the 3060-3085 window - upwards of 300.

[(SMD)MadCow]

ARAD and NARC work together anyway, and you need a NARC to prevent to-hit penalties against a non-electronics carrying unit.

[Iceweb]

I'm wondering if we need an i+Narc warhead that acts like an iNarc round but also counts the targeted unit as being tagged each round. 

Still doesn't help the ECM issue but being able to add semi guided and homing artillery to useful things a pod could do might help some.   

[Sartris]

I'm toying with a series of War of 3039 refits for the AFFC. Swapping an SRM-6 for NARC is, per StratOps, a Class A refit (therefore pretty easy). ECM doesn't show up for another several years to minimize hampering utility. NARC would mesh well with a large number of conventional forces as well from that era.

[Empyrus]

Good idea but do note that since SL tech is somewhat rare then, Narc-equipped ammo might be hard to come by. At least, depends on how strictly you interpret these things.
Narc-equipped missiles are probably much simpler thing than the Narc beacon itself.

[Sartris]

yeah, i had considered that which is why i was going for field refits instead of new variants. much easier to ship crates of NARC launchers to field crews than retool factories.

"Hey, we see you have some POS COM-1D in your unit. Try this!"

[Firesprocket]

ARAD and NARC work together anyway, and you need a NARC to prevent to-hit penalties against a non-electronics carrying unit.

That statement isn't accurate at all.  ARAD works just fine and gets no added benefit from NARC as they are searate munitions.  The only benefit ARAD gets from NARC is that if the target is NARC'd then the ARAD won't suffer penalties.  That makes it no different than if it was searching out any other electronic gear.

I do not like them at all . I preffer TAG more versatile. I have Never seen NARC used with enough efficacy to justify ever using it. After 3068 ECM is so common ARAAD missile ammo is just more efficient.

I'm not certain how it is more versatile, unless you are specifically commenting in terms of range advantage.  TAG requires that you either carry SG or Artillery rounds and you are paying additional BV for those SG rounds.  You have to shoot TAG every turn.  Once NARC is on there it isn't turning off unless it is in an ECM bubble or the location gets blasted off.

The only reason I find NARC to be inferior is because of the range of the system.  iNarc is perhaps a bit heavy, but with the alternative munitions I find it fairly decent, and the range is a big improvement.  Why it never really was included on more designs is beyond me.

[(SMD)MadCow]

That statement isn't accurate at all.  ARAD works just fine and gets no added benefit from NARC as they are searate munitions.  The only benefit ARAD gets from NARC is that if the target is NARC'd then the ARAD won't suffer penalties.  That makes it no different than if it was searching out any other electronic gear.

Tactical Operations, p. 368
ARAD Missiles follow the same rules as Narc-equipped standard missiles, however they ignore the effects of ECM against targets tagged by a friendly Narc pod. ARAD Missiles receive beneficial to-hit modifiers against targets using one of the following: Active Probe, Artemis IV, Blue Shield Particle Field Dampener, C3 systems, communications equipment (1+ tons) or ECM suites. Against targets not using the above, ARAD Missiles suffer negative to-hit modifiers.

[Iceweb]

The only reason I find NARC to be inferior is because of the range of the system.

It always amazes me that there was never even a boondoggle to attempt to attach beacons at long range.   

I imagine someone trying to launch beacons out of a mortar to saturate an area, or something ridiculous like that :)

[garhkal]

Tactical Operations, p. 368
ARAD Missiles follow the same rules as Narc-equipped standard missiles, however they ignore the effects of ECM against targets tagged by a friendly Narc pod. ARAD Missiles receive beneficial to-hit modifiers against targets using one of the following: Active Probe, Artemis IV, Blue Shield Particle Field Dampener, C3 systems, communications equipment (1+ tons) or ECM suites. Against targets not using the above, ARAD Missiles suffer negative to-hit modifiers.

Rats.  Only have TW, not tac ops, so don't have rules for them..  Are they LRM specialty munitions or can SRM's also have them?

[truetanker]

Fun fact.. you can Narc an immobile HEX and later hit it for what damage again?  >:D

That is if the Target moves into the hex...

Reason I say this... city fight, mech jumped unto a level 2 building, building had been previously Narc'd, I was at long range... -4 to hit building and +2 to the ol' Missile hit chart. Down came the building... which happened to have a sneaky basement in it!  :thumbsup:

TT

[brother elf]

Tactical Operations, p. 368
ARAD Missiles follow the same rules as Narc-equipped standard missiles, however they ignore the effects of ECM against targets tagged by a friendly Narc pod. ARAD Missiles receive beneficial to-hit modifiers against targets using one of the following: Active Probe, Artemis IV, Blue Shield Particle Field Dampener, C3 systems, communications equipment (1+ tons) or ECM suites. Against targets not using the above, ARAD Missiles suffer negative to-hit modifiers.

Can somebody jog my brain? There was something non-obvious that also counted as comms equipment, and I can't remember what it was. (Dual Cockpit Command Console?)