Ad Securitas Per Unitas: The Republic of the Sphere

[Istal_Devalis]

Heh.  That means the FWL is headed for a fall, as well.

Come to think of it... the Republic suffered from bringing in clanners, as well.  Those Spirit Cats and Steel Wolves sort of complicated things for them.

Kev Rosse seemed pretty Pro-Republic if you read his press claims before the Blackout. If they had listened to his recommendations to increase military spending and readiness pre-Blackout, they might not have been in the trouble they were.

[Kitsune413]

Heh.  That means the FWL is headed for a fall, as well.

Come to think of it... the Republic suffered from bringing in clanners, as well.  Those Spirit Cats and Steel Wolves sort of complicated things for them.

Everyone they brought in with a vested outside interest turned out pretty badly for the Republic. But they will fight on.

[SteveRestless]

I do find it humorous that the Republic is so hated because Devlin Stone maanged to convince a number of nations to pair down their militaries in the wake of the most brutal war in generations.  I know this is Battletech, and we constantly joke that Peacetech is boring.  But, still humorous that a nation commited to rebuilding the infrastructure instead of the military is so despised.  Everything's fine as long as the generals get to fight their little wars, right?

My dislike of that is entirely meta. I dislike it because it is the fluff explanation for the people behind the game trying to shift the paradigm. and I hate that shift. And by in large, the republic is portrayed as the vehicle for that shift. In-character I simply see it as incredibly naive and a false dichotomy. you can rebuild BOTH civillian and millitary infrastructure. Especially due to the skew of fasanomics, there's plenty of wiggle room for both to be restored in the wake of the jihad.

Additionally, the whole reason that the jihad was so devastating was the meta-effect of trying to set up the dark ages. the original plans for the jihad as concieved by FASA were far tamer.

Just wait.  Stone's going to make fools of them all.  Again.

Do you think that includes making fools of the fedsuns, or do you think the Federated Suns and Republic might have a friend in one another?

[False Son]

My dislike of that is entirely meta. I dislike it because it is the fluff explanation for the people behind the game trying to shift the paradigm. and I hate that shift. And by in large, the republic is portrayed as the vehicle for that shift. In-character I simply see it as incredibly naive and a false dichotomy. you can rebuild BOTH civillian and millitary infrastructure. Especially due to the skew of fasanomics, there's plenty of wiggle room for both to be restored in the wake of the jihad.

I would say that's not true.  FASAnomics has always been about limited production and transport capacity.  By choosing to decrease battlemech construction, resources were freed up to build more industrialmechs to support the reconstruction efforts.  And, it was a state directed effort to make it profitable for battlemech producers while not arming every Tom, Dick and Harry within the Republic.

, the whole reason that the jihad was so devastating was the meta-effect of trying to set up the dark ages. the original plans for the jihad as concieved by FASA were far tamer.

I've actually heard the opposite.  Some initital plans for the Jihad were supposed to be as bad, if not worse than the 1st Succession War.  But, it doesn't matter if it was chicken or egg first.  The premice of a widespread desire for peace is not wholly unbelieveable.  But, since it was the Republic that paid the price more than anyone for chasing that dream, just let it go with them.

Do you think that includes making fools of the fedsuns, or do you think the Federated Suns and Republic might have a friend in one another?

I'm conflicted on the subject.  The Republic was actually lessened by it's association with the FedSuns, in my opinion, and leaving them to twist in the wind is fine by me.  If Harrison had lived the course of history would have been entirely different.  If Caleb had not been betrayed by Sterling McKenna things would have been different.  But, as it stands now, Julian is poaching Remnant forces on his goodwill tour through the 5 remaining Republic worlds.  As a RotS fan i don't like that.  But, those troops will likely make a bigger impact trying to salvage the FedSuns than the Remnant.

But, the Swordsworn were part of the crisis as well.

[SteveRestless]

I should say, with fasanomics, there's wiggle room to justify it either way. if you look really hard at it, millitary expenditures are almost a rounding error in what the incomes of the successor states should be.

I guess at the end of the day, I remain pretty conflicted about how to feel about the Republic.

[False Son]

I certainly agree about the flexible nature of FASAnomics.  Mech factories were popping up across the IS during the Jihad sometimes, and other times, not.  All I can say is that if the Republic banned merc sales, and i'm not sure they formally did, that would cut revenue to Republic based manufacturers, and the increase in industrialmechs/combat vehicles would offer an alternate sector.

But there's no question the Republic paid the price for it.  I don't fault them for trying, though.  Even 50 years of peace is nothing to dismiss when the previous 50 years had chewed dozens, if not a hundred regiments of troops and billions of civilians.  The trouble was that the Republic was the primary arbiter of that peace, and had handicapped itself.  If the RAF had not won their early conflicts Stone's peace wouldn't have held.  Once the blackout occured it was easy to exploit the fraility of the peace and the disorganization of the Republic.  I may just look at it differently.  Even if peace was doomed to fail (this is Battletech after all) it was still a goal worth trying for.

[cavalier1645]

I do find it humorous that the Republic is so hated because Devlin Stone maanged to convince a number of nations to pair down their militaries in the wake of the most brutal war in generations.  I know this is Battletech, and we constantly joke that Peacetech is boring.  But, still humorous that a nation commited to rebuilding the infrastructure instead of the military is so despised.  Everything's fine as long as the generals get to fight their little wars, right?
.

The problem was he took world from countries that didn't want to give them up (Capella). Only convince some of the nation to go with the whole disarming thing, while some nations did not (The afore mention Capella). The Republic scale down it military while surrounded by potentially hostile nations. What Devin Stone did was foolish on a galactic scale. I don't hate the Republic for it locale or people (I am card carrying Terran Loyalist.) IT the ****** that rule them and policy they made. Which left a weak nation ripe for conquest. Which happen.

[Longstrider]

The problem was he took world from countries that didn't want to give them up (Capella). Only convince some of the nation to go with the whole disarming thing, while some nations did not (The afore mention Capella). The Republic scale down it military while surrounded by potentially hostile nations. What Devin Stone did was foolish on a galactic scale. I don't hate the Republic for it locale or people (I am card carrying Terran Loyalist.) IT the ****** that rule them and policy they made. Which left a weak nation ripe for conquest. Which happen.

Sounds pretty much like every lunatic from Terra since the Camerons. The Star League was foolish on a grand scale. You can't make people want to belong to you, either if you treat them badly after you kill millions of them (ala the Periphery), or if you fail to protect them because of shoddy policy (ala the Republic of the Sphere).

The best we can hope for is that when the walls fall, either Terra is the burned out ball of rock it ought to be, or the reborn Republic can both fight well and rule well. Of course, it's not peacetech, yadda yadda, so that won't actually happen and there will be some serious conflict.

Still, I think were all forgetting something important here. The Republic worked, by and large, for almost two generations. That's a better record than pretty much anyone out there aside from the Periphery and (as much as it pains me to say it) the First Star League for a hundred years between the withdrawal of spheroid occupation troops and Jonathan Cameron's reign. And Devlin Stone worked against the mass murderers of millions rather than actually doing the mass murdering ala Ian and his goons.

And who knows what happens between 3145 and 3250? It's unlikely, but there's a possibility for the better part of a century of peace before the warring gets going again, depending on what exactly happens in the intervening years.

[Istal_Devalis]

In-character I simply see it as incredibly naive and a false dichotomy.

Naïve maybe. Which hasn't stopped nations throughout history from trying it.

[Coldwyn]

@False Son:

Tell me your thoughts on that: I readily agree that in the aftermath of the Jihad, absolutelly no-one wanted to go on fighting anything. In a way, the Coalition Force was a great unifier and a central buffer zone, staffed by people from all over the successor states and clans seemed a good basis to work out peace treaties, protection pacts and such.
Now, at that point in time, I could easily accept the RotS dissolving the Coalition Army, all the while tying in the other nations to guard and protect the new flageling nation, thereby gaining a certain controll and overview of the partner nations armed forces.
What I don´t see is the ability to more or less force the whole disarmament thing. The troops they had were on lease and I have a hard time imgaine that everyone in the new military managed to forget his former life-long allegiance and switch over to the new Republic. So how should that have worked?

As for the 50 years of peace, we already had that, it´s the time up to the SW4.

[LiaoFan]

You know what will save them, if the writers decide to go that way?  The writers' own understanding of economics. 

I mean, how many threads have asked, "Why is the average House military so small, if the population is so big?"  How many times have we collectively read, "Why are factories only putting out so many mechs?"  Because Fasanomics, is usually the answer.  Well, that, and factories that didn't follow the program tended to go up in smoke (and fire) courtesy of Comstar. 

Fair enough.

But, see, I remember not-so-long ago, when Nationalism wasn't a thing, either, and people viewed the changing of the flag over a world with a sigh and a shrug.  But try taking a Capellan world with that attitude, that level of laxity, and see what it gets you now!  We all know that Terra has some real muscle when it comes to production, and that there are actual populations on those worlds the Thrice-Damned Republic are squatting on.  Take 10% of the population, and train them effectively, give the production facilities real, actual incentives to churn out mechs and materiel, and you could have a House military-sized force in frighteningly short time.

Give the average joe something to believe in, like the Republic -actually trying to change things for the better- instead of serving the bloodlust of some half-crazed House Lord a bajillion light years from home, and watch people's ballocks grow.  And yeah, we're talking about a lot of older designs, because that's what the Houses churn out.  But they don't need to stay low-tech, not with market forces driving production.  We could be looking at the highest average tech level anyone's seen since the fall of the Star League.

Needless, to say, this thought keeps me up, nights.

[False Son]

@False Son:

Tell me your thoughts on that: I readily agree that in the aftermath of the Jihad, absolutelly no-one wanted to go on fighting anything. In a way, the Coalition Force was a great unifier and a central buffer zone, staffed by people from all over the successor states and clans seemed a good basis to work out peace treaties, protection pacts and such.
Now, at that point in time, I could easily accept the RotS dissolving the Coalition Army, all the while tying in the other nations to guard and protect the new flageling nation, thereby gaining a certain controll and overview of the partner nations armed forces.
What I don´t see is the ability to more or less force the whole disarmament thing. The troops they had were on lease and I have a hard time imgaine that everyone in the new military managed to forget his former life-long allegiance and switch over to the new Republic. So how should that have worked?

I don't think it is entirely unbelieveable, given the pains every nation (save the Cappies) suffered during the Jihad.  What gave the Republic some legitimacy, in my mind, was the shared administration of former Successor State worlds.  This made sure that everyone had a stake in playing nice.  As for the disarmament, again, not unbelieveable.  Major wars tend to be followed by periods of peace and demobilization.  The Washington Accords of the League of Nations was a similar effort suffering a similar result.  Without the ability of the Republic and allies to enforce the peace it was doomed from the start.  Also, this is the Battletech universe.  Chivalry and the ares Convention weren't pie in the sky idealist blather.  There's always been an impulse in the BT universe to limit civilian loss of life, infrastruce damage or material loss.  Scalling down the militaries, especially after the horrorshow of the Jihad doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

As for the 50 years of peace, we already had that, it´s the time up to the SW4.

Sort of.  Peace was never formalized and even Katrina Steiner's calls for peace were rebuffed.  It was more a case of the combatants having exhausted themselves and being content to low intensity warfare throughout the end of the 3rd Succession War.

[Captain of C-21]

You know what will save them, if the writers decide to go that way?  The writers' own understanding of economics. 

I mean, how many threads have asked, "Why is the average House military so small, if the population is so big?"  How many times have we collectively read, "Why are factories only putting out so many mechs?"  Because Fasanomics, is usually the answer.  Well, that, and factories that didn't follow the program tended to go up in smoke (and fire) courtesy of Comstar. 

I was always under the impression that while the Battletech population is huge, the vast majority of the population lives in semi-feudal trappings and most events just happen to be on planets where technology and living standards are more familiar to us.  I remember reading in  an article about the Federated Suns on the old Wizkids site a story of a farmer and his family moving from one world in the FS to New Sytris, and how their standard of living went up by like 100x.  It took three generations of family members saving up money just to get the ticket on a jumpship though.

If you assume 90%+ of the Battletech populace is super dirt-poor peasants, and the remaining 10% are living somewhere roughly like 21st century standards, having smallish armies equipped with billions of c-bills worth of equipment makes a bit more sense.

Now if only authors would make that Feudalism trapping more obvious, rather than writing every novel where it's as if you walked outside of your house/apartment, only now there's giant robots nearby.

[Istal_Devalis]

Considering the average life span of your typical IS citizen, I dont think we can really account for a 90% 'Dirt poor farmer' statistic.

[False Son]

Maybe not.  But, Stone himself acknowledges that planetary possession means very little to the people on the ground.  Part of his system is to make sure everyone is invested in the wellbeing of their community.  He describes this in Well Met In The Future.

[Nav_Alpha]

In an effort to keep this tread going, I thought I'd seek some feedback on a Hastati Sentinel company I've put together. I've finally talked a mate into playing some BT and we're going to kick off a mini campaign (that will form the next part of my ongoing Dark Age era campaign: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,21577.0.html (please drop through, have a look, make some nice comments, etc)) and pit Republic against House Liao on Arboris in 3134/35.

The idea was drawn from the short write up of the Tian-Zong in the most recent in the Cappie TRO.

House Liao will drop a Shadow Lance, plus some light tanks in to support the growing insurgency and they'll be taking on a mixed company of Hastati Sentinels plus the bumbling (read, compromised by the Mask) militia.

So, here's what I've decided on for our Sentinels, please give me some feedback, comments, etc:

Alpha lance
BLD-XL Blade
Cn11-O Centurion (config-A)
Grf-4R Griffin
Ocelot

Urban ops lance
Demon Medium Tank
Demon Medium Tank
Kruger Combat Car
Ranger VVI Armored Fighting Vehicle

Cavalry lance
Kinnol MBT
Kinnol MBT
Hasek MCV + squad of Angerona BA
Hasek MCV + squad of Angerona BA

The mech lance is a mixed lot and while they have varied speeds they work reasonably well together - and i was very keen to use the new Centurion omni. The Cav lance i think is pretty much perfect - two MBTs supported by AFVs sporting PPCs to provide support while the BA, mounted inside the Haseks can burst forth.

The urban ops lance is a bit interesting. The poor Ranger is slower than everything else in the lance and I'm usually more inclined to just use single type armored lances but i thought i'd have a bit of fun - mixing the Demons with a scout car that can race ahead.

Thoughts?

[Weirdo]

Looks pretty good to me. And if you can show me evidence that the Republic has widespread access to the Kruger and/or Hasek(beyond the historical FS/RotS good relations), I will love you forever.

[Gray Jaguar]

I am of course a fan in so much as I am chained by ancient debt to the Inner Sphere as mandated by my superior's unknown false sense of obligation caused by the destruction of my entire Clan.  Semper Jaguar Fidelis!

[Xtrahmxwohld]

Looks pretty good to me. And if you can show me evidence that the Republic has widespread access to the Kruger and/or Hasek(beyond the historical FS/RotS good relations), I will love you forever.

Don't know about the Kruger as it wasn't a MW:AoD design, but the Hasek was available to the Stormhammers and Swordsworn, both pirate factions using RAF materiel.  I think that's all the proof you need that the RAF has access to the Hasek at least.

http://www.warrenborn.com/Search.php?ID=Hasek

[Weirdo]

Good enough for me! Now I have a heavy IFV to run alongside my Gigginses. Lessee...2 Haseks, 2 Giggins, 2 comapnies of foot or jump troops...I think I can have fun with this... }:)

[Pa Weasley]

Some Stone's Trackers perhaps?

[Weirdo]

That's just mean. I greatly limit my use of Trackers in combat, lest the other members of my group ban infantry altogether. Besides, I can do enough damage with the regular stuff. 8)

[Pa Weasley]

Oh, I have every confidence that you can.  ;D

[False Son]

Some Stone's Trackers perhaps?

I think you could make the case for some clan enclave militia with Mauser IICs and CSIK, ala Ebon Keshik troops.  Otherwise, save the Trackers for someone you hate.

A shame there's no room for a Marksman in there.  Nothing says RAF armor like a Marksman.

[Weirdo]

Not in a mobile infantry support lance, but who said there can't be one providing support from further back? There's a reason I have a lance consisting of twin Marksmans, a Morgan, and a Winston. >:D

Though if you want to really go for that kind of heavyweight infantry support, run a pair of Marksmans alongside a pair of Trajans. }:)

[False Son]

Yeah, especially if they are meant for urban operations.  A Trajan is for when you aren't messing around anymore.

[Nav_Alpha]

Looks pretty good to me. And if you can show me evidence that the Republic has widespread access to the Kruger and/or Hasek(beyond the historical FS/RotS good relations), I will love you forever.

Haseks show up just about everywhere in the old AoD clicky game plus I remember them appearing in Republic forces in at least one book - maybe Fortress Republic.

The Kruger... Well, I just needed something with a similar movement profile to the Demon.

Not in a mobile infantry support lance, but who said there can't be one providing support from further back? There's a reason I have a lance consisting of twin Marksmans, a Morgan, and a Winston. >:D

Though if you want to really go for that kind of heavyweight infantry support, run a pair of Marksmans alongside a pair of Trajans. }:)

Love me some Trajans.

But I've tried to keep this a bare bones company - they're not here to garrison the world, they're here I put an insurgency down hard.
So, they'll be teaming with close to a brigade's worth of infantry and vehicles of militia who can provide this sort of back up.

I like the Stone's Trackers idea. I've used them previously and that's a unit that is devestating against other infantry elements

[Xtrahmxwohld]

Not in a mobile infantry support lance, but who said there can't be one providing support from further back? There's a reason I have a lance consisting of twin Marksmans, a Morgan, and a Winston. >:D

Though if you want to really go for that kind of heavyweight infantry support, run a pair of Marksmans alongside a pair of Trajans. }:)

I'm patiently waiting for the DI Schmitt tank.  It was nasty in MW:DA so I'm guessing it'll be pretty fun in BT as well. :)

According to the dossier:

2 RAC 5s
4 MLs
LRM 15
2 Flamers and 2 Machine guns.
 O0

[Weirdo]

Depends on the stats. I remember the DA fluff always describing the Schmitt as focusing on twin RACs, and I prefer my assault-weight stuff to have some pretty long-range guns. Given the low speed of assaults and the odds of getting the tank immobilized, I'd prefer to have some assurance that even a parked tank can contribute to the fight by sniping. If it has decent long-range punch, I might give one a try, though it'll never supplant my beloved Marksmans. {>{>

On the other hand, twin RACs makes for a heck of a lot of cluster hits, and thus always a good thing to use against other tanks. I might be convinced to pair it with other such vehicles and use them as a tank destroyer lance.

[Nav_Alpha]

I'm patiently waiting for the DI Schmitt tank.  It was nasty in MW:DA so I'm guessing it'll be pretty fun in BT as well. :)

According to the dossier:

2 RAC 5s
4 MLs
LRM 15
2 Flamers and 2 Machine guns.
 O0

Eargerly awaiting TRO: Steiner for the Schmitt I guess.

I think you could make the case for some clan enclave militia with Mauser IICs and CSIK, ala Ebon Keshik troops.  Otherwise, save the Trackers for someone you hate.

A shame there's no room for a Marksman in there.  Nothing says RAF armor like a Marksman.

Interesting that you mention the Ebon Keshik points from TRO: 3085's infantry section. I'm using the same TRO to flesh out the insurgency.
Until the arrival of the Shadow Lance and CapCon advisors/heavy equipment, it will primarily be an infantry affair.
I'm thinking about a brigade of infantry backed by a light battalion of old tanks - first gen Pos, Partisans, etc.

Like most traditional insurgencies, this one will primarily be made up of foot infantry who'll make minor sniping attacks, raids on far flung targets and ambushes, etc.
But I think I'll build a core - say maybe a battalion or so - of better trained troops that have been motorised by the Cappies.
So for these guys I'll be using the Motorized Heavy Infantry (Motstånd troops) from TRO: 3085 and the Motorized MG troops from TRO: 3085s.

That gives them a nasty core of fast moving troops equipped with autorifles and a mix of V/LAWs and machine guns.