Janos Marik -- a good leader who was just (incredibly) unlucky?

[abou]

Reading through the various sourcebooks, I get the impression that Janos Marik was a competent leader who had good ideas.  But unlike Hanse Davion, he was beset by a number of personal tragedies and functioned in a political environment that tied his hands.

I've always been interested in the Free Worlds League and have been exploring it more.  Janos struck me as a tragic character.  Not in the Classical or Shakespearean sense, but simply tragic.

[The Eagle]

Yeah, that's basically Janos in a nutshell, and the reference for his name -- Janus, the two-faced man.  On one side, he's an intelligent, energetic leader with big ideas and the will to see them done; he was in many ways the hope of the Free Worlds.  On the other, he's a broken man, spiteful and vindictive but without the will or ability to accomplish any political, diplomatic, or military goals.

I know he's a fictional character and all, but I feel bad for him.  He buried two wives and half his children, including a son and a brother who both betrayed him (and then he disowned Therese after she disobeyed him to elope with Jeremy Brett; how Brett managed to not get cashiered from the FWLM after that I can only imagine).  The final betrayal -- his murder at the hands of his nephew -- was simply the last chapter in a life marked by personal and professional tragedies.

[FedSunsBorn]

I'm reminded of that old saying "Its better to be lucky than good."

Old man Janos seemed to have the latter but lacked the former in any amount...

[Archangel]

Well a lot of his bad luck can be traced back to ComStar and Mad Max.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I still want to know what was with the face tattoo.  Was any reason ever given for it?  Gotta be one of the more...unique attributes of any Great House leader ever.

[Frabby]

Unlucky indeed. I reached the same conclusions in my Character of the Week writeup for Janos Marik, though I feel I only scratched the surface in that article. (I may revisit it at some point in the future.)

[Kojak]

Let's not also forget that one of his sons went on to be one of the greatest mass-murderers in the history of humanity.

[A. Lurker]

I still want to know what was with the face tattoo.  Was any reason ever given for it?  Gotta be one of the more...unique attributes of any Great House leader ever.

I like to think that in his wilder youth he once passed out in the wrong company and when he woke up and tried to remember the party...

Hey, stranger things have happened. ;)

[Kit deSummersville]

I still want to know what was with the face tattoo.  Was any reason ever given for it?  Gotta be one of the more...unique attributes of any Great House leader ever.

Some evidence of his judgement problems.

[The Eagle]

Well a lot of his bad luck can be traced back to ComStar and Mad Max.

Anton's rebellion, sure, but a lot of it was simply personal loss.  Both Hilda Lauber and Ana Stewart died of natural causes, if memory serves, and ComStar certainly didn't give his son Duggan or nephew Duncan any pushes in their struggle to succeed him.  He fathered ten children -- TEN kids -- but only four of them survived him: Thomas (the aforementioned mass-murderer), Therese (whom he disowned and banished from Atreus for eloping), Kristen (who disdained Federal service to become a mercenary), and Paul (who sided with his mass-murdering brother).

[False Son]

I'm not entirely sure what to make of Janos.  Yeah, he was unlucky, but his response to Anton's rebellion and the Fourth Succession War leaving me thinking of him as passive aggressive.  He was beaten down by FWLP, in an era of BT writing in which FWLP was full of obstructionists and rebels.  If you were a good MP you sided with Atreus.  If you didn't, you were baaaaad.  Democracy baaaaaad!

Janos is responsible for reducing the FWL to the laughing stock of the Inner Sphere, so my sympathy is extremely slim.  The best thing he ever did was father Kristen and Therese.

[Stormlion1]

Janos, I got to give Janos props for one thing. Even in death he still got toasted with Brandy by Cranston Snord.

[Mendrugo]

I dunno.  I went through a lot of the 3010 - 3025 fiction concerning Janos, and he comes off there as a withdrawn, bitter, and often tactically incompetent leader.  He spent a lot of time wandering his palace alone in the dark, with all the windows covered.  His withdrawal from his responsibilities is one of the primary triggers for Anton's attempted usurpation.

Plus, he actually had more harebrained schemes than Max Liao.   Like recruiting a crack team of insane soldiers and sending them to Lyran space in a suicide raid against Snord's Irregulars.  Or mobilizing the entire FWL fleet to seal the Commonwealth border...to stop Rhonda from escaping with Elvis 8 tracks. 

[Alan Grant]

FWL leaders are often complicated. They aren't labeled simply "good" or "bad", either in motivation or skill, they are somewhere in between or a complex mix of the two. The fake Thomas Marik was a good man with a big bad secret. Janos Marik had a mix of good and bad qualities.

It fits the faction. Also makes things interesting.

[jklantern]

Janos, I got to give Janos props for one thing. Even in death he still got toasted with Brandy by Cranston Snord.

Cranston Snord:  Now THERE'S a man with style.   O0

[Molossian Dog IIC]

I have long maintained a healthy respect, if not sympathy, for Janos Marik.

There is certainly some good and some bad about his early years, when his plan were thwarted more by the state in which he inherited the League and its institutions (look up what harebrained schemes Thaddeus and Stephan had) than any particular errors of judgement. His own offensives against the Lyrans mostly failed due to the shoddy work of that clown school called SAFE.

Another factor painting our view of his reign is when we meet the man for the first time at the lowest ebb of his life. Personal tragedy had seriously impeded him in his role as ruler. Withdrawn and spiteful after being striken by personal tragedy and betrayed by those he loved, played by Capellans and ComStar he made a miserable impression when fiction first turned its attention to him at the start of the 4th SW.

Unlike others I approved of the neutrality in the 4th SW. Hanse Davion actually did a favour to the FWL by wiping the floor with Mad Max Liao. Yes, the FedCom was a threat to the League as well, but propping up a crumbling regime of dedicated enemies wouldn´t have bettered the League´s situation at all.
And if we consider in what sorry state the FWLM was at that time, expertly showcased by its performance against the Tikonov chaps, involvement in the 4th SW wouldn´t have resulted in much territorial gains.

But many seem to overlook how he turned things around all on his own. His most redeeming feats were those he achieved in the War of Andurien Seccession. It was him, not fake-Thomas who laid the groundwork for the League´s recovery. It was him unifying parliament behind the war effort. It was him passing the laws that would (in theory) make an army out of the FWLM. Fake-Tommy might have reaped all the praise for the centralisation of power, but what he did actually were negligible additions to an already set course. (Streamlining of rank titles? Who cares?)

Janos´demons and his early failures finally caught up with him in the end and he died, maybe fittingly, by the hand of a treacherous relative. I concur with those who see his life as tragic. It becomes even more tragic if you consider that factually he was the last Marik to rule over the League. To this very day.

--------------------------

And can you really deny a man respect that isn´t afraid to get an eagle tatoo on his freaking forehead? (Always thinking of Cray´s avatar when looking at that picture)

And then there is page 49 of the Hand Book House Marik. I simply have to admire the man´s vindictiveness.

Shipping manifest HC139428R; ex Oriente. Dest: Sian
Item Number
Toilet paper 22 tons
Soap 1.2 tons
Dress uniform gloves (white, left) 150
Tires (reconditioned) 2,000
Food (Use by 12-31-3015) 96 tons
Entrenching tools 100
Ammunition (.22-caliber air gun pellets) 15 tons
Medical supplies
(Prozac, hand to Chancellor directly) 1 case
Morale package
(Hunky Hanse and Belissima Melissa dolls,
courtesy of Quality Memorabilia of Andurien) 1 crate

[martian]

It's simple:

Hanse Davion was written to be the Star of the Show ...

That means that his enemies were written to be mustache twirling idiots (Maximilian Liao), foolish idiots (Takashi Kurita) or incompetent and unimportant fools (Janos Marik).

[A. Lurker]

It's simple:

Hanse Davion was written to be the Star of the Show ...

That means that his enemies were written to be mustache twirling idiots (Maximilian Liao), foolish idiots (Takashi Kurita) or incompetent and unimportant fools (Janos Marik).

Not sure I buy that quite 100%. I mean, that's basically calling the writers of the early fiction amateurish hacks who couldn't make their supposed "star" shine against actually competent opposition.

Besides, this thread is about Janos, not Hanse. ;)

[martian]

Not sure I buy that quite 100%. I mean, that's basically calling the writers of the early fiction amateurish hacks who couldn't make their supposed "star" shine against actually competent opposition.

You said that ...     [blank]

Besides, this thread is about Janos, not Hanse. ;)

Hard to discuss ruler of one Successor State and not mention other contemporary rulers of other Successor States.

[Acolyte]

Come on now, lets not start another Fiat Fight.

I`ve always found Janos to be a much needed element in BT. He`s the noble man (also a Nobleman) who struggles through great tragedy. He did a good job while being actively sabotaged by factions within his own realm - indeed even his own family. I think it`s a mistake to underestimate him.

   - Shane

[foxbat]

Hard to discuss ruler of one Successor State and not mention other contemporary rulers of other Successor States.

Indeed, but it should be avoided to bring the writers' plot devices and supposed bias into the discussion. This has already been discussed to death, and I'd hate to see an original and interesting topic go this old route...

[Mendrugo]

One of the issues was that Janos got his main pagecount in the Snord's Irregulars scenario pack, where Cranston played Bugs Bunny to Janos' hapless Elmer Fudd.  Given that format, it's inevitable that Janos' reputation would suffer from repeatedly getting his shorts figuratively hiked up over his head by that wascally mercenawy.

[False Son]

But many seem to overlook how he turned things around all on his own. His most redeeming feats were those he achieved in the War of Andurien Seccession. It was him, not fake-Thomas who laid the groundwork for the League´s recovery. It was him unifying parliament behind the war effort. It was him passing the laws that would (in theory) make an army out of the FWLM. Fake-Tommy might have reaped all the praise for the centralisation of power, but what he did actually were negligible additions to an already set course. (Streamlining of rank titles? Who cares?)

I see this from the opposite light.  Janos was so poor a leader that he:

1. Allied with an enemy leader that recruited his own brother into trying to depose him.
2. Ignored the anger this caused in FWLP.
3. Did very little to actually assist this "ally" thus courting Andurien's wrath for nothing.
4. Sided with the Confederation over his own people crying out to finish off their ancient enemy.  Aka, allowing the Capellans to live at the cost of a civil war.
5. Signed the Internal emergency Act effectively turned the Captain-General into a full blown military dictator with powers over FWLP to deny laws.

Even his accomplishments, like the attack on Hesperus II resulted in a better Archon taking over the Lyran Commonwealth.  He was a terribly incompetent leader.  Just look how he ignored Regulus.  A generation after the Loric incident, with the grieving still alive he didn't make attempts to apologize for his father and bring a traditionally loyal population back.  Instead, he ended up being the do nothing incompetent the Regulans had accused his father of being.  Janos was given so many chances to make things right and he always wussed out.  Andurien was the one exception.  But how much credit can you really give him for tackling a problem he himself created by decades of neglect?  And to take away FWLP's powers to do it is the ultimate insult.  "Hey everyone.  I know this crisis is my fault.  But, i'm still the C-G.  Give me your powers of legislation and i'll make an attempt to kill our own people until they fall back in line.  I'd say thank you, but it isn't like you have a choice."

[The Eagle]

It becomes even more tragic if you consider that factually he was the last Marik to rule over the League. To this very day.

Technically, that honor goes to Duncan.  He ruled as Captain General unlike Tommy re-appeared.  One could even make an argument for Corrine, but at that point the League was already splintering, so it becomes a hair-splitting event.

[foxbat]

One of the issues was that Janos got his main pagecount in the Snord's Irregulars scenario pack, where Cranston played Bugs Bunny to Janos' hapless Elmer Fudd.  Given that format, it's inevitable that Janos' reputation would suffer from repeatedly getting his shorts figuratively hiked up over his head by that wascally mercenawy.

IMO, he gets much more limelight in Brush Wars, where he is depicted as a competent man faced with the hopeless task of ruling the League through intrigues and plots by everyone and their dog. That he does so whan the rift between CG and parliament is at his apex is also important, I think.

[Stormlion1]

Shipping manifest HC139428R; ex Oriente. Dest: Sian
Item Number
Toilet paper 22 tons
Soap 1.2 tons
Dress uniform gloves (white, left) 150
Tires (reconditioned) 2,000
Food (Use by 12-31-3015) 96 tons
Entrenching tools 100
Ammunition (.22-caliber air gun pellets) 15 tons
Medical supplies
(Prozac, hand to Chancellor directly) 1 case
Morale package
(Hunky Hanse and Belissima Melissa dolls,
courtesy of Quality Memorabilia of Andurien) 1 crate

I fully expected that Max Liao and his entire Death Commando Corp started dancing to Michael Jackson songs when he got the gloves and the Prozac.

[Mendrugo]

I always thought the gloves were indicative of the "I challenge you to a duel!" glove slap gesture x 150.

[abou]

Glad to see that a fair number of you agree.

I just finished reading the novella Hector from BattleCorps.  I really enjoyed it and hope that we can see a lot more Succession Wars material.  An exploration of a character such as Janos would really appeal to me (heck, even a story on Mad Max before he went off the deep end would appeal).  That era is rich with possibility so I'd like to see it happen.

[Archangel]

(Prozac, hand to Chancellor directly) 1 case

I've always wondered what happened to the poor official who was stuck with that task.   [whipit]

[Lord Cameron]

Some evidence of his judgement problems.

Or ardent belief in the FWL.  ;)

Indeed, but it should be avoided to bring the writers' plot devices and supposed bias into the discussion. This has already been discussed to death, and I'd hate to see an original and interesting topic go this old route...

I would think the bias in the FASA era is fairly evident to most casual readers.  :-\ (just IMHO though)
It would be pretty hard to avoid taking this into account, when most of the material regarding Janos that people remember was written back then.

I see this from the opposite light.  Janos was so poor a leader that he:

1. Allied with an enemy leader that recruited his own brother into trying to depose him.
2. Ignored the anger this caused in FWLP.
3. Did very little to actually assist this "ally" thus courting Andurien's wrath for nothing.
4. Sided with the Confederation over his own people crying out to finish off their ancient enemy.  Aka, allowing the Capellans to live at the cost of a civil war.
5. Signed the Internal emergency Act effectively turned the Captain-General into a full blown military dictator with powers over FWLP to deny laws.

Janos was indeed the Janus of the FWL, in the first two decades he was a good leader, who tried to work with the FWL Parliament rather than subvert it.
The last 2 decades he was a sad bitter man, who was betrayed by his grasping and venal  children & family.

As for the IEA of 3030, by that point I believe that Thomas was already pulling the strings for an increasingly withdrawn Janos.

I agree with the others, Janos was one of the better C-G's (at least at first), and it's a shame that negative events so damaged him

[False Son]

Janos was indeed the Janus of the FWL, in the first two decades he was a good leader, who tried to work with the FWL Parliament rather than subvert it.
The last 2 decades he was a sad bitter man, who was betrayed by his grasping and venal  children & family.

Over the years my sympathies have drifted closer to Anton and Duncan.  Janos should have stepped down ages ago to let someone capable and interested be Captain-General.  I don't condone murder, but Janos had enough sympathy in FWLP to continue driving the League into the ground.

[The Eagle]

And Anton or Duncan would have been a better choice?  Anton was driven by lust for power and a desire to avenge his academy buddy Crawford so much so that he made a backdoor deal with the devil.  Duncan was just a glory-hound who took credit for military success from his underlings; even as poorly viewed as Janos was by most of his contemporaries, Dame Humphries was dismissive of Duncan and his strategic sense in comparison to Janos.  Basically, one's a murderous traitor and the other is a murderous traitor who didn't know what he was doing.

Frankly, I'd have rather Janos cancelled Resolution 288 and let Parliament take over than have let either of those two sit the throne.

[False Son]

And Anton or Duncan would have been a better choice? 

Duncan, no.  Anton, perhaps.

Anton was driven by lust for power and a desire to avenge his academy buddy Crawford so much so that he made a backdoor deal with the devil. 

That was just the final straw.  You may remember that Janos and Anton were a tag team when they started their careers.  Janos was supposed to handle the politics to repair the damage Stephen Marik did, while Anton was supposed to handle the military.  Not only did Janos fail to make headway in politics, he resorted to using a practice like military execution to set an example.  Good jorb.  Anton dealing with Max Liao was bad in the context of the the revolt's civil war.  Had he won, a closer relationship with Sian might not have led to Janos style passive aggression in the 4th Succession War or the Andurien Crisis, which was caused by the weakness of the CapCon in the face of Janos's decision to not help his ally.  We don't know if that is true, but we do know what Janos did in the remaining years of his reign.  It leaves tremendous amounts of room for speculation that yes, the League might have been better off.

By the way, one of the reasons Anton lost the war was Janos bullying Regulus and Andurien into action late in the revolt.  He couldn't court the Regulans back to being Marik loyalists, couldn't fish Andurien out of their self impossed isolation, but he could bully them into contributing forces when his own brother decides to overthrow him.  What a stellar guy.

Duncan was just a glory-hound who took credit for military success from his underlings; even as poorly viewed as Janos was by most of his contemporaries, Dame Humphries was dismissive of Duncan and his strategic sense in comparison to Janos. 

I'll give you that Duncan was not a good replacement, and that his methods were wrong.  But, I agree with the idea that Janos was unfit and unwilling to let his grip on power go.  Janos comes in dead last on my list of bombing victims to mourn, even behind his nutjob son.  Even in a crippled state Janos wasn't stepping down.  Even after causing the crisis, he wasn't stepping down.  Instead he brings in his son Thomas, with no military background to act as a mouthpiece and undermine FWLP's authority in order to solve a problem he himself created.

Basically, one's a murderous traitor and the other is a murderous traitor who didn't know what he was doing.

And yet i'd prefer either one to Janos.  If only because what comes afterwards is unknown, whereas the later years of Janos's reign were a disgrace.  Dictator for life!  If Crawford could be executed for incompetance Janos should have been tied to the same post.

Frankly, I'd have rather Janos cancelled Resolution 288 and let Parliament take over than have let either of those two sit the throne.

That'd be pretty sweet, right?  No more First Lordship ambitions from the Marik dynasty to push the League into pointless devastating wars.  BT doesn't have happy endings, though.

[Frabby]

Anton was driven by lust for power and a desire to avenge his academy buddy Crawford so much so that he made a backdoor deal with the devil.

I disagree so much that I'm considering writing a Character-of-the-week article about Anton now. False Son already mapped out the answer. Basically, Anton was a carbon copy of Janos minus Janos' disillusionment. When Janos stopped being an effective leader Anton stepped up, only to be tripped by the very same traps laid out by their enemies in a mere fraction of the time. Actually he was already almost done falling on his face when he made his grab for power. His motivation and the tragedy of his failure also mirror Janos.

[The Eagle]

I disagree so much that I'm considering writing a Character-of-the-week article about Anton now. False Son already mapped out the answer. Basically, Anton was a carbon copy of Janos minus Janos' disillusionment. When Janos stopped being an effective leader Anton stepped up, only to be tripped by the very same traps laid out by their enemies in a mere fraction of the time. Actually he was already almost done falling on his face when he made his grab for power. His motivation and the tragedy of his failure also mirror Janos.

So your argument that Anton was better than Janos is based on the fact that Anton fell for the traps that Janos did, but in a much shorter time frame?  You do realize that makes Anton less capable than Janos, right?

[False Son]

I'd agree they were both similar in that they underestimated the complexity of FWL politics.  Anton assumed that Janos was so unpopular that his rebellion would be met with more support than it really was.  On the other hand, Janos was not so hated as to be stripped of power.  Niether could mobilize FWLP, and in the end both of them being bullies is what settled the revolt.  For Janos it was shouting out Dame Humphreys and Prince Cameron-Jones.  Their contributions resulted in one of the few defeats of Wolf's Dragoons in those days.  For Anton it meant Natasha Kerensky rampaging through Anton's CP when he attempted to coerce Wolf's Dragoons.  Ah, Mariks. 

[Frabby]

So your argument that Anton was better than Janos is based on the fact that Anton fell for the traps that Janos did, but in a much shorter time frame?  You do realize that makes Anton less capable than Janos, right?

No. I argue that Anton was exactly as good as Janos - a carbon copy, basically. He wasn't better, except that he had conserved his strength and idealism where Janos' strength and idealism had evaporated between the realities of the Captain-General job and personal tragedies. Anton's mistake was that when he saw Janos failing, he assumed Janos was failing on his own behalf; Anton didn't suspect (and therefore, failed to protect himself from) outside influences such as Liao, Davion and ComStar or at least grossly underestimated their power.

But what I mainly wanted to say is that Anton, just like Janos before him, was genuinely concerned for the welfare of the League. He wasn't power hungry enough to make the power grab all by himself, he was carefully manipulated by Liao and ComStar to make that doomed move, with the full intention of destroying him (though probably not in the way it played out). The Crawford execution reinforced Anton's feelings that Janos had lost it and certainly played a part, but in the context of the manipulations already going on I don't consider the execution a pivotal factor.

[False Son]

Real quick,

No. I argue that Anton was exactly as good as Janos - a carbon copy, basically. He wasn't better, except that he had conserved his strength and idealism where Janos' strength and idealism had evaporated between the realities of the Captain-General job and personal tragedies.

Janos was a failure as a military leader.  He stripped the Capellan border to focus on the Lyrans at a time when the Lyrans had never been mroe incompetant.  Not only did he lose 2 battles on Hesperus in his tenure, he proceeded with the Solaris attack despite the worsening situation.  Crawford can be guilt of being overly zealous, but not the archetect of the plan's failure.  Janos executed Crawford in an act of petty blame shifting.  His disollusion wasn't entirely the fault of personal tradgedies.  He was a failure all by himself.

But what I mainly wanted to say is that Anton, just like Janos before him, was genuinely concerned for the welfare of the League. He wasn't power hungry enough to make the power grab all by himself, he was carefully manipulated by Liao and ComStar to make that doomed move, with the full intention of destroying him (though probably not in the way it played out).

Don't forget, there were members of the planned coup against Stephen Marik that courted Anton.  It is one thing to be a murdering glory hound like Duncan.  It's another thing to seize upon existing disatisfaction with the sitting ruler.  The difference might be easily overlooked, but it is there.  These were the same conspirators that wanted Janos on the throne.

The Crawford execution reinforced Anton's feelings that Janos had lost it and certainly played a part, but in the context of the manipulations already going on I don't consider the execution a pivotal factor.

The execution was vital.   

I can't speak for everyone, but the sequence of events leads me to Anton's corner.  Anton was the man to replace Janos, whether by opportunity or ability.  You have to remember the chain of events.   Janos was a wreck prior to the revolt, and only got worse as time passed.  Could Anton have been worse?  Yeah, maybe.  But that is open to speculation in hindsight.  We know Janos set the League on a course of self-destruction.

[Frabby]

Actually, Janos was fairly successful in fighting the rampant corruption and incompetence in the FWLM initially. This is spelled out in canon. Even though they still lost against the Lyrans, not only was their performance a markedly above what it had been before; more importantly, the FWL regained the initiative.
The CC front? That was Anton's job, not Janos' - Anton was a Duke precisely to be the FWL warlord on the Capellan front. And by all accounts he acquitted himself well there.

The rushed attack on Solaris VII was because of political pressure. It may not have been Janos' wisest move, but the available sources make it pretty clear that it was Crawford who turned defeat in a tough but possible mission into disaster by stubbornly pressing the attack when he must have seen that it was futile, losing the greater part of his force for no good reason. I don't see blame shifting here. Crawford's explicit job at Solaris was to prevent exactly this kind of disaster from happening that he caused. He messed up royally, to the point where the backlash threatened Janos' position. That's what forced Janos hand in the execution.
I think the point is that Janos' hand was forced by external factors all the time when things went wrong. I'm arguing that he was failed more than he failed by himself.

I'm with you in the observation that by 3015 Janos had changed from a shining beacon into a liability for the FWL. This was the reason why Anton - who had the same training, shared the same ideals, and still had the fire - decided he needed to make his ill-advised power grab. By blaming it all on Janos, Anton never took precautions against failing in a similar way though. The Crawford execution made him susceptible to critical manipulation and was the last straw, an impetus to actually do it. But the real reasons were all there before.

[blackjack]

I still want to know what was with the face tattoo.  Was any reason ever given for it?  Gotta be one of the more...unique attributes of any Great House leader ever.

I thought they mentioned (Old House Marik Book?) that it was kind of a fashion statement for the upper crust of Marik society. A mark showing your loyalty to the Free Worlds League.