Author Topic: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir  (Read 16992 times)

Starfury

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #30 on: 27 February 2019, 21:35:55 »
Sometimes a design is just a bad design (Quickdraw, Sentinel,  Griffin 5M, vampiric shapechanging Skrull cows).  The Mjolnir looks useful for Solaris VII or other gladiatorial arenas, a second line raider, something to fill out a lance for garrison duty, or a training mech for the large array of melee units used by Steiner and even Regulus.  It could be an entry into Daddy's little trainer for a Hatchetmam or an Axmam.

mmmpi

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #31 on: 28 February 2019, 00:29:45 »
I'm assuming "non LAAF units" is code for "Fellow that is totally not a front for a pirate king looking to purchase some useful raiding 'mechs that will strike fear into the pitiful militas in exchange for plenty of hard cash upfront, who is hoping to get a company of 'mechs onboard his dropship with very outdated credentials to take to his newly founded and entirely unbonded mercenary company who is still in the early stages of processing their company papers. For lots of hard cash upfront." here.

Yes, your average player.   ;D

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #32 on: 28 February 2019, 07:26:12 »
The Mjolnir looks useful for Solaris VII or other gladiatorial arenas, a second line raider, something to fill out a lance for garrison duty, or a training mech for the large array of melee units used by Steiner and even Regulus.  It could be an entry into Daddy's little trainer for a Hatchetmam or an Axmam.

Gladiatorial showmanship is not something I evaluate mass market BattleMechs for.  It's tangential to both most in-character situations and most tabletop play.  That said, you're absolutely correct the Mjolnir might not be a bad choice.  I should note that this is emphatically not the stated objective of the design program as described in TRO3085.

The Mjolnir is not a trainer or at least it shouldn't be used as one.  I believe I mentioned this in the article but the Mjolnir is not something you want to give to inexperienced pilots.  Trainers should be less dangerous to the operator than regular 'Mechs, giving them the opportunity to learn their skills in an environment where they're less likely to hurt themselves, others, and valuable hardware.

Coming back to the 'Mech in question, the Mjolnir is exactly the opposite of "less dangerous" as a melee trainer.  Maces are less accurate than hatchets and require a PSR if they fail to connect, meaning that someone with a low Piloting skill is both less likely to hit in the first place and runs better odds of failing both rolls and damaging the 'Mech and possibly themselves in a fall.

Okay, so we're left with "filler for light lances" and "budget raider" that's intended for the export market, which is about all we're left with because of how mediocre the armament is, and even there the Lyrans build plenty of designs that could have filled those jobs instead of spinning up an entirely new production line.  The idea this is purely a monkey model for export fails when you remember the LAAF bought a whole bunch of them.

There's a lot about this design that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and clearly other people from an IC standpoint, and it comes down to the fact they were trying to fit the MWDA hammer.  I think a lot of us would find the hatchet to be less screwy - it's still screwy on a 25 tonner, trust me - but the mace does give the Mjolnir a degree of notoriety it just wouldn't have otherwise, I admit.

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #33 on: 28 February 2019, 10:31:31 »
Well, it could be a trainer but not a melee trainer- honestly, I am with Grayson on this and WHY would you want to encourage your new pilots to engage in melee attacks.  Shoot the ###### and try not to get hit is the name of the game.  So IF I was a militia ordering this to fill in a light lance and it would be often tasked as part of the training force, then I am removing the mace so I can give it another weapon and making use of handheld weapons.  If you ignore the melee, then its not bad as a trainer- basically right up there with the Stinger/Wasp options in that its 6/9/6 with a few guns and decent armor for its mass.
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Kidd

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #34 on: 28 February 2019, 11:57:43 »
Hahaha. How about this - the mace is a cheap training device for the hatchet. It doesn't matter because it's cheap and nobody's going to spend time, money and effort sharpening it. So what if it's unwieldy, the students need extra piloting practice anyway :D

Darkwing

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #35 on: 28 February 2019, 12:38:41 »
I think one of the hardest things to for a long time player, when getting into the post-jihad Dark Ages, was that it wasn't mech-centric. It was fiction-ed as vehicle and battle armor heavy as houses rebuilt. It's one of the biggest faults of the era. Mechs are succession war rare and again entrusted to the nobility and the best, and yet they are the main draw of the game. It just didn't work. Against a OPFOR filled with armed agro mechs and industrial mechs with MG's and flatbed trucks with LRM's and mechs in disrepair it's not terrible. But nobody played the era like that.

As for why the LAAF had them in numbers...it's LAAF, reputation wise it is right up their with SAFE. The quartermasters bought the marketing. "A light mech that hits like an assault!" The LAAF saw the word assault and bought a dozen. Arc Royal was not about to correct the LLAF and say "you don't want these" Especially given the less than cordial relationship the Arc Royal Defense Cordon had with the LAAF for the better part of two decades. They probably found it hilarious and opened a bottle of scotch for every order made. 
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Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #36 on: 28 February 2019, 12:43:25 »
Especially given the less than cordial relationship the Arc Royal Defense Cordon had with the LAAF for the better part of two decades. They probably found it hilarious and opened a bottle of scotch for every order made.

Huh?  It was maybe 10 years, more likely 8 years.  And all of that went away when Peter became Archon- like literally when the ARDC broke up with him becoming Archon.  I am not even sure that region was involved in the Archonette problems Adam had to settle.
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Starfury

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #37 on: 28 February 2019, 16:09:33 »
Well, it could be a trainer but not a melee trainer- honestly, I am with Grayson on this and WHY would you want to encourage your new pilots to engage in melee attacks.  Shoot the ###### and try not to get hit is the name of the game.  So IF I was a militia ordering this to fill in a light lance and it would be often tasked as part of the training force, then I am removing the mace so I can give it another weapon and making use of handheld weapons.  If you ignore the melee, then its not bad as a trainer- basically right up there with the Stinger/Wasp options in that its 6/9/6 with a few guns and decent armor for its mass.


Melee training is actually useful for enhancing piloting ability, as well as emphasizing use for the large amount of hatchet, mace and sword mechs the LCAF has its inventory for physical attacks. Another example in universe is the pilot training the 17th Recon Regiment uses in the 1st Camachao's Caballeros novel, where better piloting is emphasized through physical attacks, jumping, and so on since the Caballeros can't produce the gunners the more potent merc companies like Wolf's Dragoons or the Kell Hounds have. Heck, in the Dark Age even the Jade Falcons have moved to using Talons for DFA and kick attacks. I'm sure there is a melee attack specialist ability that helps with piloting rolls or subtracts from the TN needed to hit with a melee weapon.

Use your jump jets, boost the TSM, and whack the enemy. It's a high risk, high reward maneuver, just like Death from Above.  Given the LCAF's cavalry companies scouting for the wall of steel, a quick elimination of another light unit weakened by your lancemates' fire via a melee attack makes sense. So does make sense in that context, especially with mechs like the Hatcheman and so on.  Does it meet the fluff from 3085? Nope, but that's simply how the design was presented to the LCAF, and they bought it. So did other powers and mercs, which isn't surprising.
Militaries in real life buy overhyped lemons all the time.


I would use it the following roles

A gladiatorial mech
Training mech for pilots with a natural bent for piloting and a hotshot attitude towards physical engagements
Raiding with faster mechs that don't have jump jets, or have the same speed and need close up cover, like Stingers or Wasps
Garrison duty in low to medium security sectors
Punishment duty for Mechwarriors who need examples made out for them why you don't try to seduce the Hauptmann's kid
A demonstration piece for visiting nobles and social officers in the LCAF, or for merc companies that need a wow factor for people to sign them on.
Cannon fodder against superior forces.



Starfury

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #38 on: 28 February 2019, 16:14:25 »
Of course, being a Steiner player, nothing lighter then 80 tons should be used for scouting, but there you go...

Rince Wind

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #39 on: 28 February 2019, 16:54:55 »
4/6 is a perfectly reasonable scout speed. Wouldn't want to get too far ahead with mechs as light as these.

mbear

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #40 on: 20 March 2019, 06:31:50 »
Bear with me, but it reminds me in a way of the Hunchback- the main weapon (in this case the mace) is just too big to really be useful on a chassis this size, and the rest of the machine suffers for it. The Hunchback at least gets by with a couple of backup weapons, a halfway-reasonable ammo load, etc., but it's too thin-skinned for the kind of brawling it'll have to do against larger machines, and too slow to bring the big gun to bear. Same here- even five more tons would have done it a lot of good, but as it is there's just too much being asked of the chassis. 'Speed, armor, firepower, pick two', and it picked speed and firepower- then made a very bad choice on how the latter would work.

After re-reading this comment it occurred to me that a Mjolnir might make a good urban defender. You use Hatchetmen, Hunchbacks, and UrbanMechs as the main attention getters while the Mjolnirs perform flank and rear attacks. Or as someone else said, use the Mjolnirs against non-'Mech supporting elements invading a city. Though in that case maybe flamers or machine guns could be a better choice.


honestly this sounds like good fodder for a design thread.


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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #41 on: 25 March 2019, 12:35:05 »
I mean, if you HAVE Mjolnirs that's a solid use of them, but if you can PICK... well, yeah, MGs/flamers are better, so why the hell would I use this thing when I could probably get an old 3050 Firestarter for considerably cheaper and have far, FAR greater capability?

A polished turd is still a turd. A polished turd with a hammer is... you know... a Mjolnir.
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Moonsword

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #42 on: 25 March 2019, 20:36:18 »
After re-reading this comment it occurred to me that a Mjolnir might make a good urban defender. You use Hatchetmen, Hunchbacks, and UrbanMechs as the main attention getters while the Mjolnirs perform flank and rear attacks. Or as someone else said, use the Mjolnirs against non-'Mech supporting elements invading a city. Though in that case maybe flamers or machine guns could be a better choice.

I mean, if you've got to make use of one, sure.  So is making it the designated point man around dark corners that may hide Demolishers, battle armor, or any number of things that make Weirdo happy.   I actually prefer that second option - it means the Mjolnir is more likely to be a statistic on my loss report after the battle, and hopefully if I do that enough I can convince the accountants the Total Cost of Ownership just isn't worth it on these nuisances and we can get something good, or at least passable.

I mean, if you HAVE Mjolnirs that's a solid use of them, but if you can PICK... well, yeah, MGs/flamers are better, so why the hell would I use this thing when I could probably get an old 3050 Firestarter for considerably cheaper and have far, FAR greater capability?

Or an old 3025 Javelin, which would conveniently cover the same role as the variant Mjolnir for a lot cheaper.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #43 on: 03 April 2019, 19:55:06 »
Of course, being a Steiner player, nothing lighter then 80 tons should be used for scouting, but there you go...
well there is Steiner Heavy Recon BA called the Commando
and I once used 1 Thunderbolt, 2 Warhammers, and an Archer as a Recon in force unit, and won when my recon lance hit theirs
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Alsadius

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #44 on: 04 April 2019, 13:13:36 »
Regarding the issue of Dark Ages clicky-tech conversion, there was a way to make the unit suck less even under the same constraints. Swap the ferro fibre slots for endo steel, add half a ton of armor(to keep the same 80 points), and use the other half-ton to either add a second ERSL or up-gun the first to an ERML. Your heat curve for the TSM gets way more practical, you keep the namesake mace, and the 2-ERSL version costs a mere 1500 C-bills more(relevant given that cost-saving was a big part of its fluff). It's still a bad unit even with that change, but it's a lot less bad.

To put numbers on it, the stock build is 655 BV, the ERML/2-ERSL version is 691 BV, and the 2-ERML version is 752 BV. TBH, I think that'd understate the improvement, because it lets you use the TSM reliably as well(which isn't captured by BV calculations). I'd happily put a skilled pilot in a unit like that if they were a light mech specialist.
« Last Edit: 04 April 2019, 13:23:21 by Alsadius »

Colt Ward

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #45 on: 04 April 2019, 13:30:21 »
Regarding the issue of Dark Ages clicky-tech conversion, there was a way to make the unit suck less even under the same constraints. Swap the ferro fibre slots for endo steel, add half a ton of armor(to keep the same 80 points), and use the other half-ton to either add a second ERSL or up-gun the first to an ERML. Your heat curve for the TSM gets way more practical, you keep the namesake mace, and the 2-ERSL version costs a mere 1500 C-bills more(relevant given that cost-saving was a big part of its fluff). It's still a bad unit even with that change, but it's a lot less bad.

To put numbers on it, the stock build is 655 BV, the ERML/2-ERSL version is 691 BV, and the 2-ERML version is 752 BV. TBH, I think that'd understate the improvement, because it lets you use the TSM reliably as well(which isn't captured by BV calculations). I'd happily put a skilled pilot in a unit like that if they were a light mech specialist.

Except if they were working from a dossier they did say if it had ES or FF . . .
Colt Ward
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Alsadius

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #46 on: 04 April 2019, 13:32:58 »
Except if they were working from a dossier they did say if it had ES or FF . . .

Ah, okay. Been a long, long time since I've dabbled in clickytech, so I can't remember what constraints would exist.

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #47 on: 04 April 2019, 14:41:19 »
Sarna has bunch of the Dossiers on the website thanks to the Warren Borne MWDA fan site.  Usually lined up with the unit that's pertaining to. I don't think Mjolnir got one because it came out after they stop making the dossiers.
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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #48 on: 08 April 2019, 14:06:21 »
Sarna has bunch of the Dossiers on the website thanks to the Warren Borne MWDA fan site.  Usually lined up with the unit that's pertaining to. I don't think Mjolnir got one because it came out after they stop making the dossiers.
Close. Dossiers only came out for units with unique variants. There wasn't a unique Mjolnir, so no dossier.
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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #49 on: 11 April 2019, 21:37:19 »
No matter how hard I try, I can never think of a better use for this mech beyond "sell to someone I don't like, and use the money to buy a different mech."
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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #50 on: 12 April 2019, 06:33:51 »
No matter how hard I try, I can never think of a better use for this mech beyond "sell to someone I don't like, and use the money to buy a different mech."

The problem with selling one is the Mjolnir just doesn't have a great resale value, so you're probably going to wind up with a Bug.  Not necessarily a bad swap, I suppose.  Some of the Wasps and Stingers do the featherweight jumper thing decently, without the kind of potentially-mortal threat that imposes a certain necessity to treat the Mjolnir trying to close with a degree of seriousness.  I've long thought 6/9/6 is really the domain of the 35-45 ton bracket (with some creep at either side).  My personal design preferences in the 20 and 25 ton featherweight range generally stick to the Locust/Dart philosophy unless I'm trying to buy filler for a jump lance and just don't have the room to squeeze in a Javelin.

I keep coming back to "scout dark corners in the hopes the high mortality rate gets the quartermaster to quit buying the things" theory myself.  It's something the Mjolnir is not terribly unsuited for, being a 'Mech suited to tight spaces, with non-explosive contents, and being highly expendable in my opinion given how little survivability they seem to show in my experience.

Another thought I've had is this thing might not be so bad in HBS BattleTech.  I can't remember if I've mentioned it but a light, fast counterpart to the Hatchetman could be an interesting addition, even if it is anachronistic, and the Mjolnir would stand out in the late Succession Wars environment of the game for a bold and distinctive set of tactics against 'Mechs with generally less armor and firepower than the ones it's matched up with in the 3090s and beyond.

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #51 on: 17 April 2019, 06:41:10 »
I mean, if you HAVE Mjolnirs that's a solid use of them, but if you can PICK... well, yeah, MGs/flamers are better, so why the hell would I use this thing when I could probably get an old 3050 Firestarter for considerably cheaper and have far, FAR greater capability?

Or an old 3025 Javelin, which would conveniently cover the same role as the variant Mjolnir for a lot cheaper.

Guys, you're overlooking one thing we can't measure in game terms: New 'Mech smell. ;)

Seriously it reminds me of some of the notes about the Pathfinder RetroTech 'Mech. If you don't have a 'Mech, yes, take the Mjolnir, but try to get something better ASAP because by default the best thing you can do is die and have your burning wreckage let friendly forces know the enemy is here.
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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #52 on: 24 March 2022, 21:12:33 »
Sometimes a design is just a bad design (Quickdraw, Sentinel,  Griffin 5M, vampiric shapechanging Skrull cows).  The Mjolnir looks useful for Solaris VII or other gladiatorial arenas, a second line raider, something to fill out a lance for garrison duty, or a training mech for the large array of melee units used by Steiner and even Regulus.  It could be an entry into Daddy's little trainer for a Hatchetmam or an Axmam.

I do think that the Mjolnir is useful in Solaris Games, but maybe not in the way you think. Even from an in-universe standpoint, people probably know that it is not a great mech. So why not make it into some kind of perpetual underdog? WWE's Crash Holly comes to mind. Everyone loves to see a little guy with big aspirations--and a hammer. You just have to find a good pilot with a likable kayfabe, and voila, that is a recipe for a solid mid-carder. No, he will never win, but people will still love him and buy his merchs.

Of course, this is presuming that Solaris Games run by the rules of professional wrestling, which they are not. You've got to be both insanely good and lucky to survive in a Mjolnir.
« Last Edit: 24 March 2022, 21:44:07 by Fireminer »

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #53 on: 24 March 2022, 21:57:23 »
It's limited weapons load out is not appealing to me.  Mjolnir does have potential as training mech or limited/beginners Solaris machine.  Honestly don't find it worth the C-Bills to obtain it unless its capture of salvage.

It front torso sort reminds me of Ford Edsel's grill....which was notorious being vary flawed automobile. Which could be why it may have it.
« Last Edit: 25 March 2022, 06:12:37 by Wrangler »
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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #54 on: 24 March 2022, 22:52:00 »
The Mjolnir, like the Storm Raider, is another example of a mech that should have ether been heavier or have another weapon set.

Solaris is a better place for it to be fielded as another light is the only mech that may fear that melee attack... though a Commando or Brigand have the potential to deliver the same damage outside of swinging range.

On the battlefield, it's only chance is attacking in a wolfpack and making that damage count before getting smacked around.

I like melee but the Mjolnir doesn't do enough damage to make it worth while.

Honestly, you have a heavy melee weapon that would be great for a 40, 60 or 80 ton mech, especially with TSM and then you slap it on a 25 ton mech and then name it after a weapon of a ancient god? Was the engineer being sarcastic and someone took the serously?
« Last Edit: 24 March 2022, 22:54:36 by SteelRaven »
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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #55 on: 25 March 2022, 00:00:50 »
That's funny. That's exactly what happened with the mythological Mjolnir. It was intended to be a warhammer, but someone snuck in and distracted the dwarves as they were working on the shaft. The measurements came out wonky and instead of being a full fledged warhammer, Mjolnir was a serviceable throwing hammer.

I see it now. Jo from design was working on a 40 tonner when her rival Bob made....mistakes regarding the weight of the mace involved. Jo panics, but then realizes that the mace is PERFECT for that 25 ton testbed design they have. BAM. Mjolnir made.

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #56 on: 25 March 2022, 00:10:46 »
Don't think there's saving this one.
It ain't completely useless, to be sure, it is low threat enough it might get next to an enemy and hit them, but.... well, 12 points can decapitate a 'Mech but that takes so much luck (and work to get the TSM activated) that it ain't really worth it. Would be better with a hatchet, that's save a ton and allow for extra lasers, and 10 points is just enough it can break head-armor and threaten a cockpit critical, or just do enough damage in general to be called a hole-puncher.

Maybe they thought the mace, would make folks MORE want to stay away..
BUT to Me with its light move, armor etc, i'd just take what ever i had on the field, and try to take this thing out AS QUICK AS possible..

Quote
Frankly, I'd rather have an old SDR-5V Spider than either one of them.  Yes, the armor's thinner, but you're a light 'Mech scout/raider.  If you need tough armor on a 'Mech like that, the correct response is usually to run away.  Spiders are definitely better at doing that thanks to being a third faster and not significantly worse in any category other than armor.  The Spider has enough armor than even a PPC isn't going to rip a leg or a torso off, meaning you're not hugely worse off than the Mjolnir or Stinger would be.

Plus it has TWO punches, vs one mace, and the punches stand a better chance to hit!

It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #57 on: 25 March 2022, 00:46:48 »
And also don't run the risk of throwing the Spider to the ground if they don't hit.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

garhkal

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #58 on: 25 March 2022, 15:16:06 »
And also don't run the risk of throwing the Spider to the ground if they don't hit.

True.  There is that... Though i wonder, WHY maces got that "PSR if it fails to hit", when other melee weapons don't??
It's not who you kill, but how they die!
You can't shoot what you can't see.
You can not dodge it if you don't know it's coming.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Mech of the Week: MLR-B* Mjolnir
« Reply #59 on: 25 March 2022, 15:47:53 »
They're bigger, heavier, and more ungainly.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman