Author Topic: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie  (Read 11018 times)

Daishi411

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Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« on: 04 May 2019, 09:34:35 »
So, i've been playing btech on and off for a number of years and have been on this forum (and the one before it) for just as long. I have a love of all the different units you can play, but when it comes to the games i've played, i've typically kept things simple with just mechs, vehicles (tanks for the most part) and the occasional BA.

So my confession: I've never actually played VTOLs in a game before...but i want to.

Now to the experts: how do you guys use VTOLs in your games? what are you fav tactics? and what are your favourite VTOLs to use?
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #1 on: 04 May 2019, 10:01:25 »
VTOL's are glass hammers, they can be very very fast and make great harassers, or are useful when attacking a distracted foe or providing fire support at long range.  But you've got to keep them moving as most of them can't take a solid hit from anything beyond an AC-5 and a large laser or PPC blast can easily swat a VTOL from the sky.  There's also weird ones like the Yellowjacket which is basically a flying gauss rifle and its quite slow for a VTOL.  Most are built around long range weapons and nibbling away or going for back and side shots. 
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #2 on: 04 May 2019, 10:09:38 »
They can be fun, but they have a single fail-point; after a single rotor hit, you're better off if it can retreat.

The Yellowjacket and Hawk Moth are probably the best, although anything with LRMs is a good option.  They're ideal BA transports and backstabbers.  Floating maps without hard borders is needed for them to really shine, surround an opponent and use wolf-pack tactics to attack his rear while keeping the others safe.

And be prepared to lose, they're fragile enough you can't build your force around them except as harassers.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #3 on: 04 May 2019, 11:26:01 »
Rule 1: If your TMM isn't pushing incoming fire up to ludicrous to-hit numbers, you're either behind cover or you're about to be ground cover.

Rule 2: Flanking movement can be very dangerous unless you're just flying in a straight line. Before you flank, always assume you're going to fail that skid check, and consider what you're going to hit when you do. Then see if you can accomplish a similar maneuver using cruise MP.

Rule 3: Yellow Jackets come in exactly two flavors: Arrow IV birds kept off the board, and salvage gift-wrapped for the enemy to pick up. There is no third group.

Rule 4: Enemy flak-capable units need to be dead yesterday.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #4 on: 04 May 2019, 11:56:29 »
they fight very bravely and die very quickly.

i've had the most luck with the pop-a-shot long range sniping from behind hills and zipping around on the periphery until someone shows their back armor.

Rule 4: Enemy flak-capable units need to be dead yesterday.

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #5 on: 04 May 2019, 12:14:20 »
They can be fun, but they have a single fail-point; after a single rotor hit, you're better off if it can retreat.

The Yellowjacket and Hawk Moth are probably the best, although anything with LRMs is a good option.  They're ideal BA transports and backstabbers.  Floating maps without hard borders is needed for them to really shine, surround an opponent and use wolf-pack tactics to attack his rear while keeping the others safe.

And be prepared to lose, they're fragile enough you can't build your force around them except as harassers.

I don't remember right now - is LFF armor a solution for the whole LB-X problem?

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #6 on: 04 May 2019, 12:36:42 »
They can be fun, but they have a single fail-point; after a single rotor hit, you're better off if it can retreat.

The Yellowjacket and Hawk Moth are probably the best, although anything with LRMs is a good option.  They're ideal BA transports and backstabbers.  Floating maps without hard borders is needed for them to really shine, surround an opponent and use wolf-pack tactics to attack his rear while keeping the others safe.

And be prepared to lose, they're fragile enough you can't build your force around them except as harassers.

Rule 1: If your TMM isn't pushing incoming fire up to ludicrous to-hit numbers, you're either behind cover or you're about to be ground cover.

Rule 2: Flanking movement can be very dangerous unless you're just flying in a straight line. Before you flank, always assume you're going to fail that skid check, and consider what you're going to hit when you do. Then see if you can accomplish a similar maneuver using cruise MP.

Rule 3: Yellow Jackets come in exactly two flavors: Arrow IV birds kept off the board, and salvage gift-wrapped for the enemy to pick up. There is no third group.

Rule 4: Enemy flak-capable units need to be dead yesterday.

Daishi411, these two quotes reflect the dominant schools of thought on VTOLs in Battletech.

The first school of thought being the one favoured by the game developers, and the second being the one favoured by players who actually want their VTOLs to both survive, and be useful.

In general terms, if you have a VTOL, and it can't make plus-four on a cruise with at least one elevation or facing change, what you have is a very expensive way to give the enemy free salvage.

particularly in the post-helm-core world or in the era of the OLD Star League where existed this thing called "LBX".

simply put, if you're slow you're too slow to 'canyon carve' (that is, to screen behind terrain and get into a good firiing spot without crashing into it) except against opponents who are fielding extremely short-range, slow, units.

IOW the yellowjacket is ideal for capping unaccompanied 3025 era Demolishers on open terrain.  it's really not very good for much else, unless you're up against a greenie with a bug-mech.

think: All the flaws of a big-gun light 'mech, not one of the graces.

for those of us who like to SUCCESSFULLY use VTOL units as a core part of our Battletech battlefield, the guidelines articulated by Weirdo reflect the best way to use VTOL units.  They're a rapier, not a baseball bat.

basic stat you want, is your cruise to be very high, with weapons in the mid-to-long ranges.  LRM variants, AC/2 variants, you're never going to one-shot a target, (well, outside of an amazing crit roll) but you'll be able to land damage, and being able to hit is the first step in DOING damage.  (a 2 pointer that hits is worth more than 15 points that don't.)

Second is you don't want to be hit yourself.  High DMM is a requirement with the VTOL hit location table combined with how much (or little) structure you actually have.  being damaged is BAD.

Third is you need to be able to move and use terrain.  this is where a little rule called "Sideslip' comes into play-if you flank and turn (or climb, or descend) you will risk sideslip, which is the number one way to become one with the terrain.

and not in the 'hidden unit with bunker' sort of oneness, more like the "flaming pile of wreckage and the pilot is dead" oneness.

therefore, you need both high DMM, and good turning/maneuvering, which means you need a fairly high cruise (so that you can save those frantic dashes at flank for when they're genuinely useful!)

Finally, there is TMM and your own movement mod.  Cruising imparts significantly less penalty than flanking, meaning it's easier for YOU to hit.  Further, with long guns (long ranged) you can, with some builds, overlap your medium range, and your target's LONG range, granting a potential situation where he simply can't roll high enough to return fire, while you're popping with 7 or 8 or better.

which in turn, leads to the prime use of a VTOL; driving the other side nuts usng papercuts and crits.

secondary use comes mostly into play in somethign called "double blind", where scouting (finding) is critical to engagement.  If you can find teh enemy and shadow them without becoming an easy target yourself, you can take advantage of the mutual blocks on line of sight to catch them and kill them. 

Tertiary use is as a transport, but the rules for that really do put a VTOL at significant risk if you want your infantry to actually arrive somewhere useful.

YMMV on how much you believe either school of thought, but the best test, is to take the plunge and spend some game-play time running as many different types of VTOL in as many different scenarios as you can.

just be aware that a lot of theorycrafters will argue with your results by bringing up edge-case scenarios that only happen in theory, as opposed to against live opponents.

« Last Edit: 04 May 2019, 12:39:03 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #7 on: 04 May 2019, 12:51:22 »
A sometimes overlooked role for VTOLs is that of a spotter for indirect fire. If you aren't wanting to shoot, its much easier to position yourself. A single Ferret can spot for a group of LRM carriers from relative safety, allowing you to drop the hammer without risking fragile assets.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #8 on: 04 May 2019, 13:00:24 »
So, you would consider a Warrior (LRM10 or AC2) or a Ripper better than a yellow Jacket? I wouldn't have thought so, so good to know

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #9 on: 04 May 2019, 13:34:51 »
Tertiary use is as a transport, but the rules for that really do put a VTOL at significant risk if you want your infantry to actually arrive somewhere useful.

This is usually my primary reason to include VTOLs into a force, and I've found that zipline rules are a huge help in alleviating your concerns. Sure, you usually end up spending a shooting phase caught flying over the cover as opposed to behind it, but since you can do it from largely any elevation, it's easier to combine it with a flank speed dash, giving you more of that delicious, delicious TMM.

My personal rules for aircav insertions:

1: Use something specialized. A VTOL deploying infantry but is unable to directly shoot someone usually sits MUCH lower on the threat scale than one that deploys infantry while also spraying lasers or SRMs at you. Being judged unworthy of attack is even better than being attacked and missed. Also, unarmed transports are usually a hell of a lot cheaper than Hind-analogues, both in terms of C-bills and BV. We're talking about saving enough to add an entire new chopper and troops to your force kind of savings. Gunship transports have their uses, but that's mostly in ultra-specialized forces where those VTOLs might be your only heavy firepower. Also, unarmed VTOLs tend to survive longer because once the drop is done, they've absolutely no motivation to stay in weapons range, or anywhere near it.

2: TMM out the wazoo. The nature of infantry means you're going to have to go deeper into the thick of things than a gunship relying on LRMs or AC/2s, and your movement modifier is going to be theonly thing keeping you alive.

3: Range. This may seem contradictory to the above, but bear with me. Just because you have TMM out the wazoo, doesn't mean you want to fly straight up the other guy's wazoo. Keep at least a bit of distance, even when dropping kiddies off at the pool. A +4 TMM makes good protection, but a +4 TMM combined with a +2 range modifier makes great protection. Besides, your troops are going to need a turn or two to get into proper cover and dig in, so deploy far enough out that they have that time.

4: Fly in groups. I'd say safety in numbers, but this doesn't actually make a given VTOL harder to kill. What it does in greatly increase the odds of a successful drop, because shooting down one Karnov plus cargo just requires some luck with dice, and we've all seen lucky shots like that go off. Stopping a lance of them takes a lot more resources than that. Similarly, a single infantry platoon(barring field guns or one of the true monstrosities from 3085) will only ever be an annoyance to be ignored, but three or four, dug into cover? That's area denial.

5: Don't fly in a vacuum. This isn't meant literally(though that's also true), it's mostly to remind you that if your VTOLs are in range, make sure they're not the only ones. If the other guy needs 10s to hit a VTOL, and 8s to hit a Thunderbolt, nine times out of ten the T-Bolt is getting hit. Odds are he can take it, too.

6: Have fun! Infantry operations and accessories to such are all about shenanigans. If your strategy didn't lead to at least a bit of giggling during initial planning, it's probably not going to work. (Addendum: Giggling during games makes wonderful psyops.)
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #10 on: 04 May 2019, 13:39:59 »
So, you would consider a Warrior (LRM10 or AC2) or a Ripper better than a yellow Jacket?

Every single time. A Yellow Jacket is just too easy to remove from the field, and a Gauss Rifle too big a threat to ever be ignored. Two kinds of VTOLs make it back to base at the end of the day - the ones that are a royal pain in the ass to hit, and the ones that aren't worth the trouble of hitting at the moment. The Yellow Jacket is neither of those, so it dies.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #11 on: 04 May 2019, 14:22:23 »
VTOLs can be very useful in built-up terrain in-lieu of Light 'Mechs, but that's a decidedly unconventional use for them when you can use Light 'Mechs instead.  Limiting the number of units that can even shoot back is another way to limit incoming fire.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #12 on: 04 May 2019, 14:37:52 »
True. In such terrain, you need to either be absolutely fanatical about only using cruise MP, or use your flanking to pop up, dash to your desired area, and then drop back down.  Sideslipping into a building is a VERY bad idea.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #13 on: 04 May 2019, 15:06:54 »
True. In such terrain, you need to either be absolutely fanatical about only using cruise MP, or use your flanking to pop up, dash to your desired area, and then drop back down.  Sideslipping into a building is a VERY bad idea.

Those are honestly the role I'd fill with gunship transports, so you can leverage their (mildly) improved durability into substantially increased lifespan, drop troops behind cover, and then flank enemies into infantry positions with still relatively mobile heavy firepower.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #14 on: 04 May 2019, 15:08:23 »
I could see it working. Do it right, and between infantry ambushes and highly mobile gunships, you could theoretically mess up a much larger force...
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #15 on: 04 May 2019, 15:10:03 »
I could see it working. Do it right, and between infantry ambushes and highly mobile gunships, you could theoretically mess up a much larger force...

It's the kind of thing that I would absolutely pick the Hind-style gunships to do, and I'd honestly argue is how they should be used.  They're not flying tanks, they're flying assault guns.  Treat them accordingly.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #16 on: 04 May 2019, 15:13:54 »
EXACTLY!
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #17 on: 04 May 2019, 17:56:37 »
Those are honestly the role I'd fill with gunship transports, so you can leverage their (mildly) improved durability into substantially increased lifespan, drop troops behind cover, and then flank enemies into infantry positions with still relatively mobile heavy firepower.

the key here is mobile firepower.  if you're flanking in urban terrain you're setting up for failure.  remember, it costs MP to "pop up" and to 'drop down', basically it's back to your canyon-carving, the higher your base cruise MP, the more likely you are to deliver your infantry to the spot on the map you're trying to get them to, and the more you have to rely on flanking, the more likely your VTOL, plus all those crunchies, are to becoming a part of the (burning) landscape.

Designs like the H-10 and Cavalry infantry variant are good for this type of tactic and role, but slower units simply aren't.

what are the slow VTOLs good for?  Well, they're good for initiative sinks, they're good for supplying your players with juicy salvage if you're a GM running a campaign for the roleplayers,  and they're good as range practice targets.  the Arrow IV yellowjacket only serves well for off-board artillery, and then only for flavor, given that for similar BV you can get a better vehicle that can ALSO do indirect fire from off-board, and said unit is probably available across a wider range of setting eras.

IOW it suffers from the flaw "Poor Solution to a problem that doesn't exist."


which defines MOST of the slower VTOL units in your TRO-they're 'solving' problems that are nonexistent, and doing so poorly.

the air-cavalry role is still served better by faster units, this has to do with two things, we can even divide them by  era.

Era 1: everything before the Word of Blake's Temper Tantrum.

Era 2: Everything AFTER the Word of Blake's Temper Tantrum.

Era 1 you're dealing with limits on resources and a general 'afterthought' attitude toward VTOLs, this era led to the production of the ultimate expression of 'badly solving nonexisting problems' in the Yellowjacket-a chopper clearly designed by someone who belongs in the assault tank corps and thinks 'mobility' means it can outrun a leg infantryman, and it requires post-helm-core technologies to work, placing it on the field (and in the field) with the best AAA weapon prior to 3067, the LBX autocannon, which comes close to matchign the range, while having a massive bonus for killing flying things, practically tailor-made for doing so.

rollin back to earlier eras, the "Big gun chopper" hit a developmental hurdle with the AC/5 version of the H-7, because anything that CAN hit, will kill it on a through-the-nose shot, in exchange for losing a lot of flexibility to do 5 points of damage at PPC range.  This is actually in practice a downgrade from the base 3025 model (the 3039 model isn't even worth discussion, being essentially nerfed because the original was functionally better suited to more roles and a better vtol-to-Vtol combatant than its Clan equivalent from 3058.  Why? it goes back to TMM and cruise speed, when all your weapons are nose mounted, being able to bring that gun to bear counts for more than how much damage that gun will actually do. only shots that hit count for damage.)

rolling back still further, and you hit the point of diminishing returns again-this time the Cyrano, which can be shot down on all facings by infantrymen, it too was a Big Gun design, but for some uncertain reason, the big gun in question is a large laser, nose mounted (again), and a lot of tonnage on that design is wasted to get it up to the 30 ton range, when it would function better (with better protection, even) downgraded to 25 tons.  it's a 2750 design and clearly the Star League had some issues with internal bribery scandals and incompetent generals-it's overweight for what it does, and underprotected, thoguh it does have a nice turn of speed.

it also lacks flexibility, given that the sole weapon system does rather light damage to infantry and only mediocre damage to armor...and it too exists alongside the LBX autocannon.

for some reason, like many beginners in the design forums, the Devs obsess over the 30 ton weight class.  30 tons produces some of the most mediocre-to-outright-bad results unless you're willing to pawn thy house's jewels to the Steiners for a loan and buy WOB parts and products.

iow you'll spend as much for a mediocre VTOL as you would pay for a decent 'mech in the same role.

The best options seem to be stumbled on by accident, because they're NOT in the 30 ton weight class.

They're between 21 and 25 tons.  this is your 'sweet spot' between suspension factor/movement buff, and survivability/payload.  aka the ability to design for a role and actually carry it out.  Higher up, and you're paying too much for your engine in terms of mass, or you're just not going to move fast enough with the engine you have.

a fun design practice, is to take the Cyrano, and see how much a five ton weight reduction gets you in terms of payload.  I once (on a dare) ran one down to 19 tons through HMVee (back when the software was being kept up).  I was able to swap the large laser for a PPC, and it had more armor-enough to survive that infamous one-level fall without exploding.

The "Infantry version" of the Warrior (H10?) can carry a squad of BA, which means it can carry a platoon of infantry.  It has respectable defensive weapons, and decent protection if you know how to use a VTOL. Likewise for the Infantry version of the Cavalry AH.  these are neither of them "big, luggy hinds"...but they do the job better than the big, luggy hinds, because they crash less often, they can avoid or evade incoming fire better, and they pack comparable amounts of firepower.

for the Aircav role, you NEED that durability, you NEED that maneuver.  Losing motives on a hovertank and you still have a pillbox whose guns just might keep working.  this isn't so on a VTOL, you can't rely on the same tactics and designs that try, when put into actual play, tend to fail hard.


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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #18 on: 04 May 2019, 18:15:08 »
A 6/9 VTOL transport is significantly more strategically maneuverable than any hover ever made.

"Pop up" gunships arguably shouldn't be popping up so much as popping out and taking significant advantage of effectively having jump jets++ while also being able to hide behind level 1 terrain.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #19 on: 04 May 2019, 18:34:33 »
For me, my bare minimum speed for VTOLs is 8/12. At that speed, you can cruise and make at least one facing change while still getting a +4 TMM (owing to the native +1 all VTOLs get), plus you can take a single rotor hit while still maintaining said cruising +4(albeit only in a straight line).  Elevation changes must either begin and end behind cover, or be done during a flanking dash, but that's what planning ahead is for, and also why 8/12 is my minimum, not my ideal. 6/9 is completely unacceptable for me, as an LB-X completely negates your cruising TMM, leaving range as your only defense.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #20 on: 04 May 2019, 21:07:17 »
I believe it was Cannonshop who coined the 10MP cruise minimum axiom.

A challenge for VTOL design is that they seem to attract the one big gun design school. Probably because the advantages of range are very useful for a VTOL.

Unfortunately one big gun tends to reduce their speed below safe levels.

It is an interesting paradox of VTOLs. Their limited mass demands light weight short ranged weapons but their vulnerability encourages long range weapons. Light weight long range weapons can only plink which is frustrating for both sides of the gaming table which temps designers to look to heavy weapons fatally slowing the VTOL.

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #21 on: 04 May 2019, 22:33:30 »
I believe it was Cannonshop who coined the 10MP cruise minimum axiom.

A challenge for VTOL design is that they seem to attract the one big gun design school. Probably because the advantages of range are very useful for a VTOL.

Unfortunately one big gun tends to reduce their speed below safe levels.

It is an interesting paradox of VTOLs. Their limited mass demands light weight short ranged weapons but their vulnerability encourages long range weapons. Light weight long range weapons can only plink which is frustrating for both sides of the gaming table which temps designers to look to heavy weapons fatally slowing the VTOL.

Well, except the clan tech ER Large Laser...

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #22 on: 04 May 2019, 23:17:52 »
While I'm no fan of the Yellow Jacket in particular or slow VTOLs in general, I've had some luck with the Kamakiri the handful of times I've used them. They're at least vastly more durable than the Yellow Jacket, and a little faster to boot.


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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2019, 00:22:46 »
Well, except the clan tech ER Large Laser...

Ruger

Aye the Donar's a pretty darn nasty VTOL thanks to that big 'ol laser.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #24 on: 05 May 2019, 00:28:20 »
Not gonna lie, an all-VTOL/infantry air cavalry regiment is one that I really want to explore at some point, but it's so easily hard countered that it's a difficult proposition.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #25 on: 05 May 2019, 06:33:05 »
Well, except the clan tech ER Large Laser...

Ruger

The Clan ER Large Laser is an interesting case.

The Donar is 21 tons and moves 9/14. It is a little bit slow and you notice it when you have to do more than move in a straight line.

So say jack it up to 30 tons? You hit another psychological problem. Lightly armored Clan tanks have conditioned us to expect a certain level of firepower from certain masses. 10 points of damage from a Clan anything feels positively anemic.

So you end up with slow over armed platforms like the Garuda (which arguably is also about showcasing advanced tech).

I know I went through conniptions with the Skadi to try and combine the required speed with the MW: DA UAC10. And it feels so under armed when a dark corner of myself knows I could have aimed for an ERPPC.

Re reading the Skadi VotW it is interesting how many times it is suggested we should have gone for a big energy gun. Which reminds me of another limitation. You can't keep using the same weapon system on official units. Otherwise we would have a lot more Battle Armor with APGRs.

But it also made me look at the design compromises that had to be made to carry a 10 ton weapon (I think it is 12.5 tons total). The main one being an XL engine. An ERPPC would be 11 tons.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2019, 06:54:13 by Jellico »

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #26 on: 05 May 2019, 07:14:48 »
In a campaign game, the unit bought a Ferret to recover downed pilots, and it honestly became my favorite unit.  Ignored by the OpFor in favor of more dangerous targets, it was able to use its MG to great effect against infantry in the open and enemy vehicles (especially hovercraft), regularly getting motive kills by blowing out tires or hoverskirts.  And, should a scenario require the friendlies to get to location X by time Y, having a speedy VTOL made those a cakewalk.

After a few such pushover mission completions, the OpFor started packing flak rounds, however, and the VTOL pilot was the one that required extraction.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #27 on: 05 May 2019, 07:16:07 »
The Clan ER Large Laser is an interesting case.

The Donar is 21 tons and moves 9/14. It is a little bit slow and you notice it when you have to do more than move in a straight line.

So say jack it up to 30 tons? You hit another psychological problem. Lightly armored Clan tanks have conditioned us to expect a certain level of firepower from certain masses. 10 points of damage from a Clan anything feels positively anemic.

I expect VTOL's to have less firepower than similar size tanks though.

The Donar is almost there, and would only take a little bit to get it fully where it needs to be.

And I do love the Goliath Scorpion version.

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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #28 on: 05 May 2019, 09:02:09 »
I've had very good results with the Cavalry and the H-7C Warrior during the SW era--one hangs back and lobs LRMs while zipping around at high speeds, while the other just Zerg-rushes the rear of the enemy and pours SRMs into them and then hiding until there's another good opening. They actually don't even take many casualties as long as you stay away from things like flak and keep moving.
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Re: Battletech Confession: I'm a VTOL newbie
« Reply #29 on: 05 May 2019, 10:34:08 »
I believe it was Cannonshop who coined the 10MP cruise minimum axiom.

A challenge for VTOL design is that they seem to attract the one big gun design school. Probably because the advantages of range are very useful for a VTOL.

Unfortunately one big gun tends to reduce their speed below safe levels.

It is an interesting paradox of VTOLs. Their limited mass demands light weight short ranged weapons but their vulnerability encourages long range weapons. Light weight long range weapons can only plink which is frustrating for both sides of the gaming table which temps designers to look to heavy weapons fatally slowing the VTOL.

I coined that under the old, pre-munchtek (maxtech) ruleset, after spending quite a lot of time experimenting with VTOL based forces under at least three previous rules regimes.  (Citytech, Compendium/RoW, and BMR(r).)

it always boiled down to the same basic units turning up successfully, no matter how many times someone (not always me) tried to
A 6/9 VTOL transport is significantly more strategically maneuverable than any hover ever made.

"Pop up" gunships arguably shouldn't be popping up so much as popping out and taking significant advantage of effectively having jump jets++ while also being able to hide behind level 1 terrain.
what I found was, the 6/9 movement profile is great-for giving salvage to whomever you're playing against, and not so great for actually accomplishing anything.

Like a fun pinata for opfor ground forces, it draws fire and dies fast. (Generally within one round of exposing itself-usually the same round.  when it doesn't it also fails to hit the target, and winds up dying the next time it pops out.)

it's a fundamental problem with the "big gun" concept for VTOLs.

The Clan ER Large Laser is an interesting case.

The Donar is 21 tons and moves 9/14. It is a little bit slow and you notice it when you have to do more than move in a straight line.

So say jack it up to 30 tons? You hit another psychological problem. Lightly armored Clan tanks have conditioned us to expect a certain level of firepower from certain masses. 10 points of damage from a Clan anything feels positively anemic.

So you end up with slow over armed platforms like the Garuda (which arguably is also about showcasing advanced tech).

I know I went through conniptions with the Skadi to try and combine the required speed with the MW: DA UAC10. And it feels so under armed when a dark corner of myself knows I could have aimed for an ERPPC.

Re reading the Skadi VotW it is interesting how many times it is suggested we should have gone for a big energy gun. Which reminds me of another limitation. You can't keep using the same weapon system on official units. Otherwise we would have a lot more Battle Armor with APGRs.

But it also made me look at the design compromises that had to be made to carry a 10 ton weapon (I think it is 12.5 tons total). The main one being an XL engine. An ERPPC would be 11 tons.

see, I would've gone with an old-school PPC, or even a Light, and kept the heat sinks at or below 10 on a fusion engine, then found some OTHER workaround to showcase tech-such as a Tarcom, or secondary weapons array that has good effects, or C3 slave.

It's one of those problems with "showcase the gear"-you end up ignoring obvious solutions.  (a Donar with a Clan Pulse laser suddenly has real utility against infantry forces, can save a bunch of weight, which can go into useful things, and still has better range than most of the things that can kill it.  an Inner Sphere chopper with a fusion engine and a PPC can hit at AC/5 ranges with ten point whacks, schlep an MML 3, and still has mass for armor plating-as long as you keep it under 26 tons.  An H-7C or H-8 can lay down thunder fields, or smoke for strategic movement, if it's in the right hands it can also do tricks like inferno or semiguided munitions...)

what creates the dilemma, is too much effort trying to mimic the playstyle of your favorite assault 'mech or heavy tank, instead of accepting that a VTOL is its own critter as part of a larger force.

Notably, the best "Vtol hunters" in the book, are vees like the Marten, or that little bitty thing with all the small lasers and hellacious speed-because they can keep the other guy from being able to effectively position, but they're kinda mulch for fighting ground-bound units. The key is "getting position on the other guy" and being able to make use of your initiative.  I've never seen a slowchopter who can defend itself. 

for that matter, put a Donar against a (pre-Nerfing in 3039) H-7 and adjust for tech level/era (precision shot in the AC/2) and see something magical; the H-7 will tend to WIN a dogfight against a 3058 Donar.

why? because of movement.  The H-7 has weaker hull, weaker weapons, but it can win the turning fight.  If you switch players, the result will tend to trend the same; assuming equal players, the 3025 H-7  (NOT the nerfed 3039) will beat a Donar in a fight.

with popgun weapons.

other fun matchups: Ferret vs. Yellowjacket.  Outcome unless the Ferret pilot's totally and completely incompetent, is that the Yellowjacket dies, most often with a mostly-full magazine, assuming a standard map or city map are in use.

Mantis vs....everyone.  The Mantis is a BEAST against other VTOLs.

notably, the best VTOLs for killing other VTOLs are SMALL VTOLs, small and quick.  this is radically different from standard ground play where bigger tends to win the match (Minus extreme edge-case crits).

it's the thing the 30 ton club always ignores-the best VTOL designs are NOT in the heaviest range, the best ones for general use are in the mid-range, and the best 'duellist' models are in the LIGHT range.

In BMR play, 10 is the slowest cruise you can be viable on a mixed, 3050's or later battlefield, or against anything that can do 5 points or more of damage. In TW play, that minimum speed is closer to 9, with 8 being a marginal case.

not flank, flanking gets you dead, it's good for becoming one with the terrain at a bad moment.

cruise.

but this means the "all big gun" designs are really the sort of thing you reserve for "This is an example of how NOT to do it", and the 30 ton range is a sterling example of "this 'gunship' costs more than your Battlemech and is less useful. only Nobles who didn't pay attention at the Nagelring would actually buy it."

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