Growing your fleet

[Sjhernan3060]

Kit brings to the fore my main point how could a low resourced Clan like the spirits grown their naval power?

In cannon they made protos their own why not do a similar thing with Pocketwarships. After the Burrock Absorption the ravens were leery of the Adder fleet which had swollen in size. I would have liked the ravens and spirits to have worked together to develop those. And heck it would have been very Raven like to have the Spirits be the crash test dummies for the new designs : )

[Sjhernan3060]

Interesting PoV.

So the Spirits did have a shortage of qualified lower castepeople (engineers, technicians, scientists)?

I would think the opposite, everything I have read points to a lack of resources being their big hiderance

[Gaiiten]

Pocket warships were unknown to the Homeclans. IIRC only the Sharks used two Excalibur PWS in the WoR (Battle for Vinton).

This could have introduced the idea to the Homeclans for some future designs post WoR.

[Stormlion1]

Clan Warships are almost entirely Technician Caste crewed with Warriors in the top spots. Yes, there the officers and the Techs are the enlisted. Getting warriors freed up for those spots probably isn't the problem, its the techs. You can only learn and transfer so much from taking crews from jumpship crews.

[Terminax]

By the power of fiat, you can do anything you want with your game. Don't get too hung up on overthinking it, TPTB never have. Nobody should shame you for playing the way you want to play.

My own Blood Spirit campaign of a few years back, went the colonization route about twenty years sooner than canon and it reaped considerable rewards. While they were building up their new colonial assets, they focused their efforts on absorbing individual Fire Mandrill Kindraa, targeting a couple that had setup on their own and thusly, had part of the Fire Mandrill fleet with them. By the time they'd absorbed half the Fire Mandrill Kindraa and were dragged in front of the Clan Council, they made the argument that obviously the Fire Mandrill weren't actually a Clan anymore, being obviously unable to defend itself in combat. So they turned it around and got to absorb the rest of the Fire Mandrills. As part of that process, they were able to pick up a trio of additional Warships and remove two others from the Fire Mandrills at a cost of losing one of their own Warships before picking up the rest in the end game of the absorption.

[Sjhernan3060]

Thanks terminax,

I know in canon the spirits developed many fans because they wre the scrappy underdogs ( who made many poor decisions) but the way they were written teased hope which was then snuffed out

[Vition2]

Some fairly easy and reasonable options that could exist for them include "buying/harvesting" lower level technical personnel from the Ravens - they probably aren't going to consider you a threat to their naval supremacy until you start getting warship numbers above twenty, so they probably aren't going to have an issue with providing lower level personnel.  Another option, simply increase the class size in their existing warship training program, two-three years down the road and you can have trained personnel ready to crew more warships.  The only thing the second option might be lacking is similar levels of simulator training than previous classes.

[Kit deSummersville]

Be careful listening to Terminax, he literally doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never planned out a story arc for the entire plot line, never gone through the outlining of a product, the submission process for it, the discussion as the story is worked on, the feedback from proofreaders and editors or the final adjustments that are made to ensure that everything flows well.

He is right that you can do what you want in your story but the more thought and work put into it will make it a better story.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hence my endlessly rewrites in my mind but I do appreciate terminax for encouraging creativity

[Stormlion1]

Blood Spirits didn't die. There in hell regrouping.

[Sjhernan3060]

Do folks on here know about Shapeways?

Cool site to get interesting/custom minis:

https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/?tag=space+station

[Terminax]

Aside from Kit being well Kit, overreacting and denigrating me- my point wasn't so much to poke at CGL creative but to tell you to do what you want with your game.

[Kit deSummersville]

Aside from Kit being well Kit, overreacting and denigrating me- my point wasn't so much to poke at CGL creative but to tell you to do what you want with your game.

Posting falsehoods, like you did, is far more denigrating than posting facts, like I did. Sorry if you feel that correcting a lie is overreacting but that's how I live my life. It's plenty easy to suggest people do what they want with their own game without slapping up some incorrect statement.

[Terminax]

What falsehood? Aside from a couple of possible instances, I don't think many outcomes in the Battletech universe were decided from a dice roll.

[Terminax]

I don't think lack of warm bodies is necessarily the problem the Blood Spirits had. Up until the Absorption War they were making gains materially if slowly. The real thing that did them in, was making an enemy out of the Star Adders in the course of things. That would have been a burden in any future the Blood Spirit's would have, assuming a post-WoR environment where the Star Adders dominate as they did. Add to that, more than their share of bad luck and the shattering of their Touman in the Viper Annihilation and there's not much you can do there.

That said, let's start in 3049 - in the post-trial to determine the Clan Invasion forces. The Blood Spirits made a decent showing, all things considered. Didn't take allot of damage in losing, still have their larger than generally believed Touman and all of their post-Raven deal Warships (two of which are unnamed/classified). Up until Tukkayid (???) the Clans were supposedly "banned" from most inter Clan trials at the order of the IlKhan I suppose to preserve the fighting strength of the Invaders - not too sure on that, but it's something like that. So you got a four-five window there to work with something like colonization - which the Clan did later (quite successfully but with less overall resources/pressure from the Star Adder occupation of York).

After that, you got a few years where you could add raiding other Clans for their resources. Then later still you have the Absorption War which guts the Blood Spirits Touman and creates a deep enmity with the Star Adders. So what if that doesn't happen. Say the Star Adders never learn of the dirty dealings of the Burrocks? You still have the Burrocks as your eternal foe, but that's entirely more manageable than what the Star Adders become. It'd change the dynamics of the WoR as well, but it's food for thought.

[Vition2]

What falsehood? Aside from a couple of possible instances, I don't think many outcomes in the Battletech universe were decided from a dice roll.

*Clears throat loudly*

*Shifts eyes to point something out*

Precentor of Lies

re: Terminiax - He totally got you.

[Jellico]

Kit brings to the fore my main point how could a low resourced Clan like the spirits grown their naval power?

In cannon they made protos their own why not do a similar thing with Pocketwarships. After the Burrock Absorption the ravens were leery of the Adder fleet which had swollen in size. I would have liked the ravens and spirits to have worked together to develop those. And heck it would have been very Raven like to have the Spirits be the crash test dummies for the new designs : )

The Inner Sphere is a low WarShip density environment. In the Homeworlds single worlds are defended by Stars.
It is highly questionable that PWS would be available in large enough numbers to threaten WarShips. If you want a cheap flotilla defense use ASF.

[Stormlion1]

PWS's I think would be a odd fit for the Clans. Only a few had shipyards and generally the Clans went to other Clans to build or upgrade there fleets. Before the WoR's the Snow Ravens were the big boys on the block for this. There is only so much yard space available and a constant need for upgrades, refits, and new construction. A new style of Dropship, the PWS would not be considered a priority or if they did get pushed to the fore not in any meaningful numbers. After the WoR the shipyards are almost all destroyed or dedicated to rebuilding the fleets of the remaining Clans.

Now you can build Dropships on a planet but its slow work I would think and resource intensive. The Blood Spirits might be able to build a few but thats about it. And in the warship heavy pre-WoR Homeworlds there is no need to both in the fact there really not needed but also they would get popped like balloons by regular warships.

[Terminax]

Taking a resource like a naval cache has it's own headaches. You'll need to protect the naval cache until your prize crews can take stock of what's in the cache and recondition what you can until you can move it, which is likely going to take at least a few weeks to a few months at the very least. And even supposing you can move the ships, you're probably going to need at least some shipyard time... and for the Blood Spirits, that means probably going to the Snow Ravens. Then add that the Clan that you took that Cache from isn't just going to be idly standing by. You're probably best off by being opportunistic and going for a weaker target like one of the Abjured Clans or the carcass of the Smoke Jaguars if we're talking post-Great Refusal.

You kind of need to peg down the time frame you want to work in first, then you can figure out your options from there.

[Maingunnery]

You have at least one thing going for you, the Blood Spirits and the Snow Ravens generally have a good relationship (not exactly allies). The backstory of the Arcadia (DropShip class) is a good example of this.

If they really want larger PWS, then they might want to look into asking the Ravens to develop a refit for turning old SL Mule Dropships into a Clan PWS or Armored CV. Those should be decently available enough and shouldn't require trails or asking the council.

[Colt Ward]

Now you can build Dropships on a planet but its slow work I would think and resource intensive.

Got it backwards.  Building in space would be resource intensive because you do not have gravity to hold things in place and you have to provide your labor source with food, air and water.  Oh and housing . . .

We only hear of a few DS yards and the one that comes to mind is Cyclops on Skye that built . . . Overlords?  in cradles along the coast- which also makes sense for power, materials transport and food production for the staff.

[Stormlion1]

Taking a resource like a naval cache has it's own headaches. You'll need to protect the naval cache until your prize crews can take stock of what's in the cache and recondition what you can until you can move it, which is likely going to take at least a few weeks to a few months at the very least. And even supposing you can move the ships, you're probably going to need at least some shipyard time... and for the Blood Spirits, that means probably going to the Snow Ravens. Then add that the Clan that you took that Cache from isn't just going to be idly standing by. You're probably best off by being opportunistic and going for a weaker target like one of the Abjured Clans or the carcass of the Smoke Jaguars if we're talking post-Great Refusal.

You kind of need to peg down the time frame you want to work in first, then you can figure out your options from there.

Mongoose and Widowmaker are probably two Clans that have caches of warships still floating about and the possibility that they moved them to a location to keep other Clans from finding them is always a possibility.  A thing to note as well. One or more of the Clans may have had Mckenna Battleships still. Eighteen were noted to have left with Kerensky but only nine have ever been named still in service with the Clans. Maybe a few were destroyed during the Pentagon Civil War but there might be one or two floating, though there condition may be very lousy.

[Sjhernan3060]

In terms of terrain please check out this great kit: http://www.thecombatcompany.com/Hawk-Wargames-Dropfleet-Commander-Modular-Space-Station-Set

[Warship]

With their limited resources, I think the Spirits would have started developing PWS's after the Burrock Absorption debacle.  The real question to me is whether they would use nuclear missiles in them.  Buying into the lies about the Wolverines, I would say no.  But, with their backs to a wall, and no escape in site, I would think Schmitt and her advisors would say yes; either that or extinction. 

The Blood Fury is in trouble twenty PWS's show up and receive permission to deploy their nukes.  Two Adder warships go to MC², and the others start to pull back, possibly to run for it.  Now the Spirits and their PWS's pursue to try and destroy all remaining Adder ships in the York system.  To make it work, they must destroy/capture every single vessel. 

[Gaiiten]

I doubt that the Spirits did have the resources to start a crash program of developing and building PWS.

[Sjhernan3060]

So should they have trialed for them?

[Warship]

I doubt that the Spirits did have the resources to start a crash program of developing and building PWS.

I am thinking in their desperation they would mount a few capitol weapons on unneeded dropships.  Then after running some simulations, contact the Ravens.  The Ravens would probably jump at the idea as it would add a surprise to their expected eventual encounters with the Adder fleet.  Using the Spirits as a testbed would absolve the Ravens of any actions should word leak out.  As I think about it more, I could see the Ravens jumping into York at the moment the Spirits unleash their nuclear-armed PWS's, to make sure no Adder vessels escaped. 

Just think about the implications.  The Adders send a major hunk of their fleet and ground forces to York only to go missing.  The Adders would be hurt too heavily to send another force and too embarrassed to complain in the Council.  In the meantime, both the Spirits and the Ravens grow their new secret (I know, I know, Clan Watches and all) PWS forces.  With no blockade, the Spirits can be more active in hunting down resources to rebuild their forces and maybe even add a few new warships.

This is just an idea sparked by the original post.  I have always disliked the idea of any Clan being absorbed or destroyed.  To paraphrase Ruby Rod, "I do not some Clans, I want all Clans"; or something like that.

[Stormlion1]

With their limited resources, I think the Spirits would have started developing PWS's after the Burrock Absorption debacle.  The real question to me is whether they would use nuclear missiles in them.  Buying into the lies about the Wolverines, I would say no.  But, with their backs to a wall, and no escape in site, I would think Schmitt and her advisors would say yes; either that or extinction. 

The Blood Fury is in trouble twenty PWS's show up and receive permission to deploy their nukes.  Two Adder warships go to MC², and the others start to pull back, possibly to run for it.  Now the Spirits and their PWS's pursue to try and destroy all remaining Adder ships in the York system.  To make it work, they must destroy/capture every single vessel.

You run into the issue that PWS's weren't even a thought yet after the Burrock Absorbtion, and the group that did develop the idea was the WoB during the Jihad. If they did go the nuke-em-all route I think it would have been in use with aerospace fighters launching warheads at warships in mass numbers. Have a real Macross Missile Massacre over York. Lot cheaper in construction as aerospace fighters are just plain cheap in comparison to dropships much less PWS's and you can make a whole lot more of them too. And any Clan can produce nuclear warheads its just that there not a normal weapon of war for the Clans. I could see the Blood Spirits using them to defend York though and even striking at Star Adder warships and jumpships elsewhere with unmarked fighters.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hmmm would there be a bunch of cached old SL era aero fighters still in the 3060 time frame? The spirits could have gotten those and bulked uo their air arm that way.

They could have also trialed for techs and pilots who would help deepen their bench

[Terminax]

Again, manpower wasn't the issue. Equipment was. While it isn't emphatically said, the fact that the Aerospace portion of the Touman was kept attached to the Naval Reserve certainly suggests the Clan had limited Aerospace resources and they were probably either the weakest Clan Aerospace wise or close to it. Landing a supply of Aerospace Fighters would help but it's not going to overcome a top tier Clan.

Also again, pick a firm starting point and that'll give us a better idea where to start from.

As for PWS, there's really no reason given the conditions of the Homeworlds that Clans couldn't develop technologies on their own based on needs and wants - afterall a PWS is really just a trumped up assault dropship. The Clans DO have the technology. Perhaps, after the Smoke Jaguars have been Annihilated and the Great Refusal certain Clans realize hey, the Spheroids got one of us, maybe they'll go after the rest of us and plan accordingly. Given the bottlenecks involved in building Warships, maybe they'll look to PWS to fill the gap. What is less likely is parallel development of subCapital class weaponry. So Clan PWS if they take form, will probably be capital missile carriers unless they become entangled in the Inner Sphere/Jihad sphere. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen but if you want to go with subcaps, you'll probably want to explain it in a sensible fashion.

One advantage a PWS does bring, is that it allows you to tie up less actual Warriors than you'd think since most of the crew is in not Warrior Caste. Not really saying that it outweighs the disadvantages (limited availability for starters) but worth mentioning none the less.