Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes and the Great Scorpion Empire.

[Icerose20]

How likely for the Diamond Sharks/Sea Fox to trade with the Imperio?  Sharks and the Scorpions are pragmatic enough to let what has happened be in the past, for a small mark up.  Sharks get some resources that would be hard to trace, and the Imperio would be in a better position to send the Snakes back home with their fangs kicked in.

[Deadborder]

I can see several reasons not to. The first is the issue of potential conflict with the Homeworld clans; the Shark/Foxes know that the Homeworld Clans are targeting the Imperio and are making hostile moves towards it. Becoming involved with the Imperio could potentially provoke conflict with them.

The second is that the Imperio is out and out paranoid towards outsiders full stop. It was demonstrated in ISP3 that they were not willing to tolerate Interstellar Expeditions and were taking a shoot first, ask questions later approach. Remember, to the Scorpions, the Shark/Foxes are a Reaved clan, one that are the enemy, no matter what.

The third and final is the simple tyranny of distance. Travelling to and from the Imperio is many months each way with very little in between in the way of waystations, recharge points, supply depots and so on. The simple cost and time involved would likely be prohibitive. Besides, the Shark/Foxes have the massive Inner Sphere market right there next to them, so the relatively tiny Imperio and its massive distance probably seems a lot less interesting to them.

[Orwell84]

Shipping-wise, the Sharks/Foxes could manage some clandestine trading missions  - remember that the Council of Six agreed to no contact with their Homeworld brethren - though the Imperio isn't likely to have any resources the Sharks/Foxes couldn't get from 'legit' sources.

A better motive for the Sharks/Foxes would be investing some second-hand Spheroid goods in exchange for keeping themselves updated about the Imperio and (at one remove) the Adder Paramountcy. Maybe a single expedition annually or biannually. If the Shark/Fox traders don't report back, then the Imperio has fallen to the Adders and it's time to set up tripwire outposts in the Barrens for the impending Aggressor holocaust!

[Maelwys]

Well, the Diamond Sharks probably wouldn't have too much of a problem with it, though it certainly puts them closer to things they probably wouldn't want to deal with (the other Clans).

The big problem in my mind is that the Diamond Sharks aren't going to get alot out of it. The Imperio that we know of is pretty broke with limited production and resources. What can they really offer the Diamond Sharks? Especially considering the distances involved.

Would they do it? Sure, if they saw a reason to. Is there a reason to do so? I'm not really sure that there is.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Is there a reason to do so?

Maybe as a cover for gathering intelligence on the HW clans, something that seems to have fallen to the Fox Loremaster and Watch on the Council of Six in recent sourcebooks.

I could see some Fox Watch agents and Fox merchants undertaking trade missions to the Imperio under the guise of some Deep Periphery power in order to keep tabs on Adders/Yotes/Cobras/Lions.  But it would be more of AToW than a BT campaign.

[Icerose20]

So the Scorpions are not the clan of mythic warriors trying to discover the truth of the Word of Kerensky by finding and Studying the Star League that they left?  They did accept the Light Horse troops left stranded by the Robes Tantrum.

[Orwell84]

So the Scorpions are not the clan of mythic warriors trying to discover the truth of the Word of Kerensky by finding and Studying the Star League that they left?  They did accept the Light Horse troops left stranded by the Robes Tantrum.

That was a key characteristic pre-Reaving, but since being exiled their focus seems to have been on survival and keeping the Imperio natives in line.

[jklantern]

Yeah, definitely hard to focus on THE GRAND QUEST when you're starving to death, being hunted, and in a land where nobody likes you.

[truetanker]

Would they do it? Sure, if they saw a reason to. Is there a reason to do so? I'm not really sure that there is.

More HarJel and/or cheap germanium ore... Remember the Scorps built the first diving BA... HarJel is found underwater...IIRC.

TT

[Maelwys]

HarJel is an odd thing. Its only really rare when it needs to be (I suppose germanium is in the same boat).

Its not like its a short trip. I believe its something like 750 light years, or 25 jumps there..and then back. And it runs the risk of putting you in direct contact with the Homeworld Clans.

It just doesn't seem worth it really.

[Colt Ward]

We really do not know how far into the Deep Periphery the Foxes have been traveling.  First, they are a bit closer than I think folks are using- the Chainelains are a big blob on the maps i have seen and that is a private Fox preserve.  Who knows how far beyond that they have been building up?

Second, the Foxes were trading with the Hansa before the Reavings so they are willing to travel a distance to make contact.  They were selling the Hansa some of the same exact stuff they were selling the IS powers- specifically a Ha Otoko!  What could the Hansa give that they could not get cheaper closer to home?

Third, ISP is being used as a factual source for the Imperio's position and attitude?  IIRC the ISP series are widely known to be rumor collections- some things they say are absolutely true, some of the fabrications are based on a shred of truth, and some are outright tall tales.  If IE found a stable base for jumping off points for expeditions into the very deep periphery for their treasure hunts are they really going to make the truth known?  Or is it in their interest to tell everyone else the Imperio is under threat of invasion, xenophobic, and a collection of poor dirt farmers?

Sure, the Scorpions/Hellions have some problems- not denying that at all.  But they also have some solutions, and while the Imperio likely has more to gain in a trade relationship with the Foxes than the Fox merchants do that gives the Fox merchants a degree of control they are sure to like.  After all, the Imperio very likely has the option to trade with Jarnfolk, Hansa or Foxes- and the Foxes are the only ones who operate from a tech base the Imperio is going to want to acquire.

[pat_hdx]

Check Objectives Periphery. The section on the Castillians exactly one year before the invasion. You will find something VERY interesting.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Were there some former Rim World secret bases out in that direction? if so, maybe they could be reactivated to use as bases for a trading route.

[Gaiiten]

IMHO this would cry for HomeClans aggression.
They have drawn a line in space and this shall never be crossed by Spheroids.

[Orwell84]

IMHO this would cry for HomeClans aggression.
They have drawn a line in space and this shall never be crossed by Spheroids.

They can enforce their line in the sand stars, but up until 3090 at least they'd be hard-pressed to do more than just raid the Imperio, let alone pursue and attack the Sharks in their own waters. Particularly if any warriors striking out that far rimward then had to worry about 'taint' allegations and Trials of Reaving.

[rebs]

There are several problems with the Sea Foxes trading with the Imperio.  Chief among them is the Homies.  That is a box best left unopened.

Secondly is the fact that the Imperio has little to offer the Sea Foxes.  Poverty has its own price.

Third is distance, though this is of lesser issue.  After all, Touring the Stars tells us the Sea Fox merchants travel 1,000 light years into the deep periphery and are many worlds only connection to to rest of civilization.  (Besides, the Adders are raiding the Hansa. That's a mighty long trek just to carry out raids.)

But the Sea Foxes also like information.  And that alone might lure the Sea Fox out to the Imperio.  Especially info about the Homies.  Solid info would be worth something I am sure.

Lastly, the Imperio would need something of great value, and that's someone who can help them maintain their fleet.  I'm not sure what they could offer the Sea Foxes, but it might have to be raw materials, because they have little else to offer.  An unbelievium or unobtainium mine would have to be discovered.  The distances would come into play with this, but it would be the Imperio's only option. 

[dgorsman]

It's a *huge* stretch, but bear with me here.  Foxes "lease" one or two of the Imperio's Warships for some deep periphery escapades - maybe they don't have anything immediately available, or at least nothing suitable.  Whatever.  The ships are not in great shape so at some point they're rotated through yards in the Iles for repairs.  Lease expires, ships go back to the Imperio. Foxes get use of the ships, Imperio gets repaired ships.

Not very likely, but at least somewhat plausible.  Not without precedent, such as the Falcons bulking up their fleet with Aegis cruisers from the Ravens during Revival.

[Colt Ward]

There are several problems with the Sea Foxes trading with the Imperio.  Chief among them is the Homies.  That is a box best left unopened.

Secondly is the fact that the Imperio has little to offer the Sea Foxes.  Poverty has its own price.

Third is distance, though this is of lesser issue.  After all, Touring the Stars tells us the Sea Fox merchants travel 1,000 light years into the deep periphery and are many worlds only connection to to rest of civilization.  (Besides, the Adders are raiding the Hansa. That's a mighty long trek just to carry out raids.)

But the Sea Foxes also like information.  And that alone might lure the Sea Fox out to the Imperio.  Especially info about the Homies.  Solid info would be worth something I am sure.

Lastly, the Imperio would need something of great value, and that's someone who can help them maintain their fleet.  I'm not sure what they could offer the Sea Foxes, but it might have to be raw materials, because they have little else to offer.  An unbelievium or unobtainium mine would have to be discovered.  The distances would come into play with this, but it would be the Imperio's only option.

Actually for being a 'naval station' the Imperio is in a good place for the Foxes . . . first, they are the highest tech level outside the Inner Sphere/near Periphery that is not the Home Worlds.  It does not matter that they have mixed levels of production, what matters is they have Clan tech level production of any sort, Clan data banks and Clan scientists & techs.  Nowhere else in the Deep Periphery outside of the Homeworlds can match that level of support for the Foxes fleets- and they are convenient for trading with the Hansa (raw materials & info) as well as anything else out that direction.

It also has the advantage for the Foxes of not having to devote population or infrastructure to create that support base.  Look at what happened to Columbus when the Star League collapsed- though yeah, hitting farms with orbital weapons will end a population.  Any Fox naval station located in the Imperio would not be dependent on regular supply runs from the IS like Columbus was at the time.

A Fox presence located in the Imperio would also be relatively cheap- consider the mark up the Foxes could put on current IS & Clan mechs.  Even with them having limited production of SL and Clan tech equipment, from what is indicated the production is not in volume.  IMO it would be akin to the situation the Periphery was in late 3050s and early 3060s- they maybe making a few modern designs but to get bulk they are using hybrid Indi, Prims and 3025 designs.

[glitterboy2098]

i could see the Foxes, in the earlier years, dealing with the Imperio via Hansa intermediaries. this would limit the level of technological offerings they could supply, but it would let them set up a rapport, which in later years the Foxes could use to start dealing a bit more directly.