Author Topic: Box set love  (Read 4980 times)

Sartris

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #30 on: 04 February 2019, 09:51:25 »
there was a rather heated conversation about that a while back and TPTB's stance is that kickstarters are for when you have unused labor but need capital. if they do a kickstarter, they'd have to diminish their effort somewhere else since they don't have the workforce to divert to a KS project.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #31 on: 04 February 2019, 12:02:21 »
Yeah, they've repeatedly stated that there's nothing they could change for a reasonable infusion of cash.

If they got an unreasonable amount of money, things probably could change, but emphasis on unreasonable.
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Sartris

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #32 on: 04 February 2019, 12:20:51 »
With a huge pile of cash they could expand payroll, which would fix a lot of issues

Someone hurry up and win the lottery

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Matti

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #33 on: 04 February 2019, 12:37:59 »
there was a rather heated conversation about that a while back and TPTB's stance is that kickstarters are for when you have unused labor but need capital. if they do a kickstarter, they'd have to diminish their effort somewhere else since they don't have the workforce to divert to a KS project.
Would kickstarter or the like be of help to fund molds for more variety of plastic minis? Would it be worth it and would we pay for it?
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Sartris

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #34 on: 04 February 2019, 13:22:55 »
i think most of us would say yes. pay for it? depends on how much. reaper's bones KS was a smashing success, wasn't it?

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carlisimo

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #35 on: 04 February 2019, 13:45:46 »
I’m finding the necessary cleanup on these plastic minis to be pretty brutal.  The price makes it okay, but if Ironwind Metals keeps releasing new sculpts for 3025 mechs I’ll mostly stick to those.  Their newer models are pretty good imo, it’s just that they still have a lot of old ones in the catalog.  Especially if you’re in 3025.

I’d say the other thing that makes the game look antiquated  is the record sheets.  I’m fine with the concept, they just look old-fashioned and take up incredible amounts of room.  I think I’d try to redesign them so they were folded in half the short way and standing up.  The side with the armor bubbles would face your opponent so he could see the damage, and the other side would have all of the tables. 


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #36 on: 04 February 2019, 13:54:52 »
With my eyesight, I would not enjoy a redesigned record sheet with finer print.
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Empyrus

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #37 on: 04 February 2019, 14:23:33 »
Constantly flipping over the record sheet would not really help things either. I don't think i'd prefer seeing enemy durability, i regard seeing my own easily to be as or perhaps more valuable.
While the current design could be perhaps compressed by getting rid of stylistic things (like the picture of the 'Mech, instead have all things in neat rows or something), that might impact overall clarity and quick readability negatively.
Definitively wouldn't like the font getting any smaller.

One thing that would be nice would be some kind of separate heat meters. Think X-wing TMG movement dials but with heat level shown.
Not necessary perhaps, since a paperclip attached to the record sheet heat meter is good way to adjust it quickly but paperclips have tendency to get lost, and a separate heat meter would look modern. Obviously large games might need many of them, so practicality might be limited.

EDIT I regard the record sheet room requirements to be deceptive. They can be stacked, and since damage is recorded one 'Mech at a time usually, one can just move that sheet on top. And if not playing with optional rule to keep data hidden, one can always request to check the opponent's sheets.
For comparison, i figure X-wing TMG ship and upgrade cards require a lot of room, since each unit is supposed to have a unit card plus many others, all visible (so as not to forget what you got, been there done that).
Not saying smaller size wouldn't be nice though, just reckon that it could be worse.
« Last Edit: 04 February 2019, 14:28:51 by Empyrus »

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #38 on: 04 February 2019, 14:42:27 »
If you're not using a clipboard for your sheets, you need to be.
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Sartris

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #39 on: 04 February 2019, 14:46:55 »
I would not appreciate the loss of the art box as it's the prmary way that I don't mark on the wrong sheet

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Empyrus

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #40 on: 04 February 2019, 15:04:21 »
I would not appreciate the loss of the art box as it's the prmary way that I don't mark on the wrong sheet
I was thinking about the 'Mech outline where the dots are, not the "ID art".
But the compression benefits might be marginal, most certainly not A5 paper (are the standard record sheets actually made to A4 standard or something else?), and non-standard papers would likely increase cost for pre-printed sheets.

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #41 on: 04 February 2019, 17:22:53 »
I’m finding the necessary cleanup on these plastic minis to be pretty brutal.  The price makes it okay, but if Ironwind Metals keeps releasing new sculpts for 3025 mechs I’ll mostly stick to those.  Their newer models are pretty good imo, it’s just that they still have a lot of old ones in the catalog.  Especially if you’re in 3025.

I'll second this point.

Now that I've started to clean up and work with my Beginner Box minis, I still think the sculpts are absolutely fantastic, but the mold quality, and the plastic material are not up to the standard I was hoping for. My Griffin and Wolverine both have some pretty brutal mold lines on them, and the soft plastic material does not file well, so I am very gingerly cleaning them up with a fresh x-acto blade.

It works, and they'll look great when they're done, but I am very much looking forward to the day IWM puts out cleaner metal versions.   :-\

Matti

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #42 on: 05 February 2019, 00:06:58 »
(are the standard record sheets actually made to A4 standard or something else?)
Something else. I recall lining up A4 print paper on record sheet booklet that came with Introductory Box Set, and booklet is shorter and wider than A4. Difference is only some millimeters. Americans and their nonstandards...
« Last Edit: 05 February 2019, 00:09:47 by Matti »
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Re: Box set love
« Reply #43 on: 05 February 2019, 01:48:06 »
We have standards. 8.5"x11" is one of them, as 5"x8", 11"x14" or 11"x17"
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Re: Box set love
« Reply #44 on: 05 February 2019, 03:15:57 »
Something else. I recall lining up A4 print paper on record sheet booklet that came with Introductory Box Set, and booklet is shorter and wider than A4. Difference is only some millimeters. Americans and their nonstandards...
its Letter size IE 8.5" X 11" which works out to 21.59 cm X 27.94 cm

Bigkahuna

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #45 on: 05 February 2019, 03:55:34 »
there was a rather heated conversation about that a while back and TPTB's stance is that kickstarters are for when you have unused labor but need capital. if they do a kickstarter, they'd have to diminish their effort somewhere else since they don't have the workforce to divert to a KS project.

I'm not sure I would 100% agree on that, Kickstarters are really not about the funding of projects, its about marketing and bringing products to the attention of the gaming community.  If you want to learn about Battletech today, you have to google "Battletech" and locate this specific site, its basically invisible otherwise as a product, in fact your more likely to find information about the PC game than the board game.  Kickstarter projects immediately register with all sorts of social media groups and channels across the globe who are hungrly looking to investigate new projects and they have a strong affinity for nostalgia throwback games. If you made a Battletech kickstarter projects you guaranteed a huge amount of social media attention, its just how it works.   

The thing about Marketing campaigns of any kind however is that you have to be ready for an influx of customers and I think this is where Catalyst Game Labs has a huge problem.  The reality of this franchise is that it can barely handle the tiny, niche community that has formed around the game now.  As soon as a couple of hundred new players arrive because of a new box set like the one we just got suddenly everything is out of stock and the game is back to being effectively out of print which right now is essentially the games status... aka, Battletech is out of print.

Beyond that however I think there is a lot that could be done with minimal investment.  For example just creating some division and organization of the products and identifying what belongs to what and clearly directing players to material would be a huge boon. 

Right now the entire book catalog is a jumbled mess that new players have no hope of coming to grips with.  I'm a reasonably intelligent guy and after a week of research, reading and talking to people on this and other forums, I still couldn't tell you the difference between a Historical,  Turning Point or technical readout book.  I mean today I'm just trying to find A book (any book) that has Lance vs. Lance scenarios in the succession war era (where the box set is set in) so that me and my friends can run a mini campaign.  That alone has created endless confusion where terminology like Campaign Operations, Total Chaos, Historical, Turning Point, full rules partial rules, combined arms games, regular games... I mean its a jumble of unstructured information that is impossible to decipher and what's worse is that these books all cross reference each other all over the place.  You pick up a Turning point and the book is like ... ok you need X, Y, Z books and maps from A, B, C and D books, and F, G and H map sets. 

In essence as already mentioned, the game franchise today is basically for people who already own everything only.  New Players don't have a prayer in hell of ever fully absorbing this material even if they could get their hands on, which they can't.

So yeah, I understand the challenge of bringing the franchise into shape, Catalyst Game Labs has their work cut out for them, but it really needs a lot of focus right now because these box sets really aren't doing them any favors.  New players get the address to the club with the box set, but they aren't given the secret password to get in and are left standing outside at the door.

I think one important first step for Catalyst Games is to refocus their attention on "New Players" and create products geared for taking them from that first introductory Mech vs. Mech battle, and create products that leverage that information into constructed progress.  They also need to be a bit less greedy as well with their products.  Selling stuff from the 1990's in 2019 is crazy.  Their should be a lot of free material for Battletech... especially things like record sheets, scenario books and maps.  Why are we selling maps?  Its crazy to me... its a hexagon map on which the game is played and you are referencing them in 30 years of material... release the bloody things on pdfs for free... I know they are a business but it feels like their are so many pay walls to a game that already has so many problems with accessibility.
« Last Edit: 05 February 2019, 04:06:35 by Bigkahuna »

Matti

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #46 on: 05 February 2019, 10:59:08 »
I mean today I'm just trying to find A book (any book) that has Lance vs. Lance scenarios in the succession war era (where the box set is set in) so that me and my friends can run a mini campaign.
You want Starterbook: Sword and Dragon. It takes a place in year 3049, but it's close enough. Furthermore book's resources can be used (required even) with Historical Turning Points: Galtor, which takes a place in last year of Third Succession War, 3025. For more background details about Galtor Campaign, you want outdated campaign book Galtor Campaign (can still be used as is) which is also available in PDF.

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That alone has created endless confusion where terminology like Campaign Operations, Total Chaos, Historical, Turning Point, full rules partial rules, combined arms games, regular games... I mean its a jumble of unstructured information that is impossible to decipher and what's worse is that these books all cross reference each other all over the place.  You pick up a Turning point and the book is like ... ok you need X, Y, Z books and maps from A, B, C and D books, and F, G and H map sets.
Did you read this page and linked pages under it?
« Last Edit: 05 February 2019, 11:00:48 by Matti »
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Re: Box set love
« Reply #47 on: 05 February 2019, 11:40:35 »
There are supporting products that are coming out for the box set.  But they are not here yet.
I’ve heard March for additional maps.
I’ve heard a campaign book, but nothing as far as release time.
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Bigkahuna

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #48 on: 06 February 2019, 02:35:20 »
Quote
Did you read this page and linked pages under it?

Yes this is a very helpful link and there is plenty of other short form information that describes the books, but I think the issue for me has been "the path" or "order" of discovery and order in which you should navigate through the material.

I think veteran players and Catalyst Game Labs fails to fully grasp what its like to be a proper newbie in the game, as in "I know nothing, day 1" with the game.  Its really intimidating and if you read stuff out of order it just compiles the confusion.  Like on the first day I was trying to figuire what edition of the game this was and which books went with what editions of the game.  It never occurred to me that the game is backwards compatible and the rules haven't really changed that much in 35 years.  I also didn't fully grasp the difference between Alpha Strike and Boardgame material, or even what the difference was.

There is a lot of education that needs to take place before you really get going with the game.  Now I think I have learned a lot and I started writing a guide based on my own experiences and what I have sort of come to a conclusion as to how to approach the game.  I'm sure its not 100% correct but I have found that there seems to be a general lack of information tailored towards new players/new arrivals for the game.  Much of the content for this game works under the assumption that you already know the game well.

I have the first two parts of the guide ready.. perhaps some of the vets could review it and offer some advice/tips and I can add those to the guides.  In any case, hopefully someone will find it helpful and avoid some of the confusion that I ran up on.

I do agree with you that everything in Battletech eventually becomes logical and makes sense, I mean I think the content looking at it now with some understanding makes perfect sense, but there are many pot holes that are easy for new guys to fall into if they make some basic assumptions and I think that makes it difficult to is that there are many dependencies in the books as they reference each other quite regularly.  As such I think for a new player some direction in an order of acquisition of books to help them put it all together I think could be helpful.

Battletech Guide part I http://www.gamersdungeon.net/?p=1499
Battletech Guide part II http://www.gamersdungeon.net/?p=1514&

Matti

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #49 on: 06 February 2019, 11:37:16 »
I have the first two parts of the guide ready.. perhaps some of the vets could review it and offer some advice/tips and I can add those to the guides.  In any case, hopefully someone will find it helpful and avoid some of the confusion that I ran up on.
I took a brief look at the first part. I'm not native English speaker, but I can see grammar is all over the place. I think by "its" you mean "it is", but correct short hand is "it's". You also write Battletech Manual, but book's name is BattleMech Manual. And Warefare isn't a word. Such mistakes only serve to confuse newcomers even more. Get grammar right, book titles right with correct capitalization (BattleTech is right, Battletech is not), and I'll get back to it.
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Re: Box set love
« Reply #50 on: 06 February 2019, 12:14:26 »
For a guide, there are a lot of strong opinions included, but I'll take that as a positive that you really want this to all work out.

You'll probably want to mention the option of finding a Starterbook as an intermediate step.  Yes, they're out of print, but you can find them from used Amazon sellers and on eBay for reasonable prices.
https://bg.battletech.com/books/starter-books/

Sartris' post here also has a (admittedly expansive) layout of BT products to reference:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=44730.0


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Sartris

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #51 on: 06 February 2019, 12:31:28 »
my only regret is that i've hit the post character limit

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Matti

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #52 on: 06 February 2019, 13:29:25 »
You'll probably want to mention the option of finding a Starterbook as an intermediate step.  Yes, they're out of print
Does PDF files go out of print? ???
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00Dawg

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #53 on: 06 February 2019, 14:45:27 »
Does PDF files go out of print? ???
They shouldn't, but Sword & Dragon isn't available in Digital on the CGL store. 

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Sartris

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #54 on: 06 February 2019, 14:58:04 »
It hasn’t been for a very long time

Drivethrurpg has it

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #55 on: 06 February 2019, 20:44:25 »


Battletech Guide part I http://www.gamersdungeon.net/?p=1499
Battletech Guide part II http://www.gamersdungeon.net/?p=1514&

I agree with most of that, especially part II.

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Re: Box set love
« Reply #56 on: 06 February 2019, 23:40:48 »
Would kickstarter or the like be of help to fund molds for more variety of plastic minis? Would it be worth it and would we pay for it?

IWM has done that for whatever you donated they would give you vouchers so when products are available you can purchase them

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