Author Topic: Superheavy Company?  (Read 4290 times)

thesilverback

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Superheavy Company?
« on: 04 August 2023, 11:39:57 »
Ok, In a Superheavy Battlemech Company, is a Superheavy just substituted for a regular battlemech because 4 superheavy in a lance seems like overkill and/or it would create a severely weak unit. A mixed lance of a superheavy battlemech, supported by 3 medium or heavy units would be a much better choice.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #1 on: 04 August 2023, 11:46:05 »
I want to say I saw somewhere what the Duat carries is considered a 'company' of the superheavies- basically the DS is the equivalent of the Union.  Which means 6 superheavies forms a company.  Now the initial tactical doctrine in ilClan/HotW had light forces screening the superheavies- hoverbikes (awesome!) and hovercraft.  They would try to keep the massive mechs from being isolated/surrounded by faster normal mechs.
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Church14

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #2 on: 04 August 2023, 12:27:35 »
Duat appears to carry:
6 mechs
6 BA squads
6 Superheavies
A platoon of infantry (for security onsite?)
So half a level III

If anyone else made it, I’d say you are in to something, but at a glance (I don’t have the relevant TRO in front of me) ComStar was deploying superheavies like a typical level II

We also have the FWL manufactured ares in Empire Alone, which are deployed in full lances of 4.

Ok, In a Superheavy Battlemech Company, is a Superheavy just substituted for a regular battlemech because 4 superheavy in a lance seems like overkill and/or it would create a severely weak unit. A mixed lance of a superheavy battlemech, supported by 3 medium or heavy units would be a much better choice.

I don’t think anyone who brings superheavies to bear was looking for anything less than overkill



EDIT: rechecked. EA doesn’t call out a specific number, but just refers to them as typical lances/companies without anything saying they come in half numbers.
« Last Edit: 04 August 2023, 12:31:20 by Church14 »

Colt Ward

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #3 on: 04 August 2023, 12:50:31 »
The Republic repurposed the never before seen design for raiding outside the Fortress after they squished ComStar.  The Superheavy accomodations was a refit- perhaps stripped out another pair of Level IIs?
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thesilverback

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #4 on: 04 August 2023, 13:02:47 »
I agreed if you are bringing superheavies you are definitely looking for overkill but the weakness of a superheavy only company is terrible, too.  Was looking to see what had been put out for a company size element.  Also thanks you all for the information on the Ducat and what it carried that make a lot more sense about a superheavy company is. Because I mainly play heavy medium and light heavy units this makes a lot more sense.
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Church14

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #5 on: 04 August 2023, 13:05:56 »
That’s what I get for not having the TRO.

Hm. 6 220 ton bays would match the sort of “max weight +50%” of a mech bay but for superheavies. That’s about 9 lost mech bays to create those. Convert some to vehicle bays…

without adjusting cargo by too much, the original might’ve been:
2 level II mechs
1 level II tanks
3 level II BA/infantry?

Dunno.

When I can, I’ll try to read the original TRO and see what it says.

If it said deploying a company, then it might be treating the 6 mechs and 6 superheavies as the company. With BA support that’s a nice hammer

thesilverback

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #6 on: 04 August 2023, 13:13:39 »
A unit of 6 superheavies and 6 mechs would make a nice force, matched 1 and 1. The superheavy to destroy the target and the other mech as a backup to protect the rear.  Sounds good.  And if BA was allowed, to either finish off the superheavy target or to assist the mech to chase off annoying those annoying back strike mechs.  I really like this.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #7 on: 05 August 2023, 17:45:15 »
Superheavy mechs are honestly terribly at offensive operations.  They lack speed- only the Poseidon is able to move 3/5, and none of them really have enough long-range power to offset it.  As such, it tends to be easy for an enemy force to avoid them and focus on the lighter units while pummeling the SHs with artillery fire.
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Ghaz

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #8 on: 05 August 2023, 18:50:12 »
Superheavy mechs are honestly terribly at offensive operations.  They lack speed- only the Poseidon is able to move 3/5, and none of them really have enough long-range power to offset it.  As such, it tends to be easy for an enemy force to avoid them and focus on the lighter units while pummeling the SHs with artillery fire.

That reminds me that I still need to get the minis that I need to put together a Tactical Response Star (IlClan sourcebook, pg. 42)  :evil:

Church14

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #9 on: 05 August 2023, 19:18:04 »
Superheavy mechs are honestly terribly at offensive operations.  They lack speed- only the Poseidon is able to move 3/5, and none of them really have enough long-range power to offset it.  As such, it tends to be easy for an enemy force to avoid them and focus on the lighter units while pummeling the SHs with artillery fire.

What makes you assume there aren’t artillery, ASF, and lighter elements with a superheavy unit? They were never deployed by themselves in canon.

Wolf’s zeta battalion, for example, would be a unit where superheavies make sense as well. It’s a brick brought in against the targets nothing else has the meat to crack, and works in canon.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #10 on: 05 August 2023, 20:00:02 »
What makes you assume there aren’t artillery, ASF, and lighter elements with a superheavy unit? They were never deployed by themselves in canon.

Wolf’s zeta battalion, for example, would be a unit where superheavies make sense as well. It’s a brick brought in against the targets nothing else has the meat to crack, and works in canon.

What are the superheavies bringing to the table that isn't available from lighter mechs?  That's the problem with them, they themselves don't actually offer any major advantage that you can't get if you'd brought normal assault mechs.  Mechs that move 2/3 and don't have a huge amount of firepower beyond 20 hexes (which is sadly true for most superheavies besides the original Omega) are just too easy to either avoid or snipe.

They work a lot better when you can put them somewhere that the enemy wants to be and let the enemy come to them rather than trying to get them to go to the enemy.
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Retry

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #11 on: 05 August 2023, 20:36:37 »
There's one very specific advantage for lighter-end Superheavies: They make good Long Tom platforms.  Conventional 'mechs simply don't have enough crits to mount them.  They're feasible enough to get to 3/5 without breaking the bank and if that's not fast enough, well, you're not going to find too many Long Tom platforms that are faster anyways.

I think there might also be some minor mobility advantages associated with superheavies associated with crossing light forest hexes or something else?  Most of my rulebooks have disappeared into the void, so I'm going exclusively off of memory here.

idea weenie

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #12 on: 05 August 2023, 20:57:04 »
What makes you assume there aren’t artillery, ASF, and lighter elements with a superheavy unit? They were never deployed by themselves in canon.

Wolf’s zeta battalion, for example, would be a unit where superheavies make sense as well. It’s a brick brought in against the targets nothing else has the meat to crack, and works in canon.

If a target is slow enough to need the firepower from a Superheavy and can be caught by something moving 2/3, that is what artillery is for.  One unit fires a C3 Remote Sensor, and if the target is spotted the data is passed back to the artillery unit.  (Can't remember what the artillery-delivered version is called).  If the target is not spotted then the Remote Sensor is shut down or destroyed, and the Expendable Recon unit keeps searching.

(I also figure a couple guys on a cargo truck use a Lift Hoist to pick up and carry the expended 250-kg Remote sensor, so it can be refit for future use.  Each one is ~25,000 C-Bills, so it would be worthwhile to recover them.  I'm sure there's some sort of canon cargo truck that has a cargo bay and a Lift Hoist that can do this job.  Since whatever they are chasing can be caught by a 2/3 Superheavy, this truck doesn't have to be all that fast.)

At least, as long as your force is willing to use artillery.  Mech-carried artillery would be able to go nearly anywhere a SH 'Mech can go.

The other option is a bunch of light and fast VTOLs whose only purpose is to probe closer to the target's expected location, using their high TMM to avoid getting hit.  Once they spot the target they call in artillery and back off.  If the target is mobile, then they will watch to see which direction it goes so the artillery can adjust.  If it is not mobile, their job is to try and spot any hidden exits from the base.


The main problem with SH Mechs for me is that as soon as you go from 100 tons to 105, the Internal Structure goes from 10% to 20% of the Mech's mass.  Assuming standard Internal Structure this increase means the Internal Structure mass goes from 10 tons to 21 tons.  You actually lose capability with a the lighter SH 'Mechs, and the only use I can think of is being able to put enough armor on it to survive a single ortillery shot or a nuclear warhead.

There's one very specific advantage for lighter-end Superheavies: They make good Long Tom platforms.  Conventional 'mechs simply don't have enough crits to mount them.  They're feasible enough to get to 3/5 without breaking the bank and if that's not fast enough, well, you're not going to find too many Long Tom platforms that are faster anyways.

Good point, you'd have a 3/5 all-terrain Long Tom platform.  I completely missed that use, good catch.

I think there might also be some minor mobility advantages associated with superheavies associated with crossing light forest hexes or something else?  Most of my rulebooks have disappeared into the void, so I'm going exclusively off of memory here.

IIRC, SH pay 1 less MP for crossing a hex, minimum of 1.  So Rough terrain that needs 2 MP to cross for a normal Mech would only need 1 MP for a SH.  So if you expect a lot of Rough and Light Woods terrain, then your regular 4/6/0 Mechs will be slowed to 2/3, while your 2/3 SH Mechs won't be affected (ditto for 6/9/0 Mechs and 3/5 SH).

RifleMech

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #13 on: 06 August 2023, 04:16:33 »
Do we have Superheavy Mech Bays now? If so, what book are they in?

Church14

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #14 on: 06 August 2023, 09:58:25 »
Do we have Superheavy Mech Bays now? If so, what book are they in?

AFAIK they are deployed from cargo. The duat just has cargo bays that happen to be about the right size for a hypothetical ares mech bay.

Colt Ward

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #15 on: 06 August 2023, 14:45:39 »
Yeah, if I recall they were also set up as 6 cargo bays on that deck, each 220 tons.
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Wrangler

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #16 on: 06 August 2023, 15:19:40 »
Largest formation of Superheavies has been a Lance (4) machines.  Couple have sprinkled in the Free Worlds League by the Dragoons and Clans have made use of them during the Battle for Terra, but honestly. I don't think their going amount more than couple if less than a lance at time at max.

Production would need resume by interested party, frankly better deployment would be needed.  Assault units sure, but it needs escorts keep small guys off their back.  IF it gets back in production.

I like having them around, but I'm not seeing that in the cards honestly.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #17 on: 06 August 2023, 18:16:00 »
The Republic deployed their superheavies in massed formations at one point during the battle for Terra, during a counter attack in... I think... central asia.

This was a problem for one chapter before being outmaneuvered and beaten back in the next.

When it comes down to it, if a superheavy isn't just carrying as much artillery as possible and staying way back from the front lines, they're mostly best used as bullet sponges. They're the doom turtles of the Battletech Universe. Either they park somewhere the enemy has to go through, or they walk slowly towards a fixed objective and soak up fire.

Honestly, their slow speed doesn't bother me near as much (especially for tripods who don't spend mp on turns and are much less likely to get knocked down) as their lack of a center torso cockpit option. The more hits you soak, the more likely those hits will find the head.
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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #18 on: 06 August 2023, 18:39:34 »
Ah yes, the head hit issue.  It's already a big problem that slightly reduces the utility of Assault-class 'Mechs as they'll die to an AC/20 or Gauss Rifle headshot no matter what (well, except for some weird armor builds).  Adding 3 extra points of armor ain't doing much to address the issue.

RifleMech

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #19 on: 06 August 2023, 19:20:40 »
AFAIK they are deployed from cargo. The duat just has cargo bays that happen to be about the right size for a hypothetical ares mech bay.

That's what I though. I'm glad I didn't miss anything. Thanks :)
 

Church14

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #20 on: 07 August 2023, 07:42:49 »
The Republic deployed their superheavies in massed formations at one point during the battle for Terra, during a counter attack in... I think... central asia.

This was a problem for one chapter before being outmaneuvered and beaten back in the next.

That was also Hour of the Wolf, literally nothing the RAF had worked in that trash fire. I wouldn’t use it as representative of… anything.

They do appear in another battle in ilclan (Redoubt Volga) with a full company and smashes a cluster before getting swarmed down by another galaxy arriving to the fight.

thesilverback

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #21 on: 11 August 2023, 21:34:58 »
Not really a assault or super heavy player so thanks for all the insight.  i the the cost/ benefit ratio on the superheavies just don't make them worth the use.

Thanks all.
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CJC070

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #22 on: 11 August 2023, 22:05:04 »
Considering that an assault lance only contains 2 or 3 assault mechs it stands to reason that the same logic could apply to a superheavy company.  In my head canon beyond 3150 a superheavy company would have 3-4 superheavy mechs, 3-4 assault mechs, and the rest heavy and medium mechs to act as flankers or scouts.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #23 on: 12 August 2023, 06:17:22 »
In a sense you would probably use Super Heavies like Awesomes or Salamanders: stand in the back and drown the opponent with massive long range fire from whatever weapon you carry. And then use Heavies or Mediums as flanking protection. Plus some Battle armor should anyone come really close. Though would a SuperHeavy be good as a waddling artillery platform? Like a Helepolis but with two artillery guns? I am not sure if that would be even possible to construct

Wrangler

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #24 on: 12 August 2023, 08:44:32 »
You know, it would be interesting to see a Battle Armor supporting Superheavy.  Armed with perhaps couple Artillery Cannons, half dozen machine gun arrays and SRM launchers.

I'm not great mech designer...but...This could be okay Battle Armor / Infantry Support Machine.  It doesn't need be super speedy, just bring hurt to troops held up in buildings.

Code: [Select]
UrbanBrawler UBR-001X
Base Tech Level: Experimental Mixed (Base IS) Level
Era Experimental - Advanced 3145+   Standard
-
Tech Rating: E/X-X-X-F 
Weight: 130 tons
BV: 1,784
Cost: 13,658,857 C-bills 
Movement: 2/3
Engine: 260 Fusion
Double Heat Sinks: 21 [42]
Cockpit: Superheavy Tripod Cockpit
Gyro: Superheavy Gyro 
Internal: 220 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 248/443


                      Internal   Armor
Head                     4    12
Center Torso          39  33
Center Torso (rear) 10
Right Torso            27  24
Right Torso (rear)   7
Left Torso              27  24
Left Torso (rear)     7
Right Arm              21  22
Left Arm                21  22
Right Leg               27  29
Left Leg                 27 29
Center Leg             27 29
 
Weapons                           Loc   Heat
Sniper Cannon                    RA   10
Sniper Cannon                    LA   10
Vehicular Grenade Launcher  RT   1
Vehicular Grenade Launcher  LT   1
Medium Pulse Laser              CT  4
Medium Pulse Laser             CT   4
SRM 4                               RA   3
SRM 4                               LA    3
Plasma Rifle                       CT    10
 
Ammo                       Loc  Shots
Sniper Cannon Ammo RT    10
Sniper Cannon Ammo RT    10
SRM 4 Inferno Ammo  RT    25
SRM 4 Ammo             RT    25
Plasma Rifle Ammo      RT   10
Plasma Rifle Ammo      RT   10

 
Equipment               Loc

CASE II                    RT
ECM Suite (Guardian) CT
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truetanker

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #25 on: 22 September 2023, 00:39:26 »
My evil mind says something...

Most of you pay attention, some of you might want or need diapers.

RotS era...

Duat
1 Ares Aphrodite C3M-2nd Aphrodite
  2 Ares Hephaestus C3Slave
1 Ares Aphrodites C3M -1st Aphrodite
  2 Ares Hephaestus C3Slave

2 Archer-9R C3Slave -1st Aphrodite
1 Warhammer -8D - C3Slave -1st Aphrodite

1 Maruader-7C C3Slave -2nd Aphrodite
1 Malice-YZ C3Slave -2nd Aphrodite
1 King Crab-08B C3Slave -2nd Aphrodite

6 Squads of Level I BA

Assault Triumph (3082)
2 Schrack Prime
2 Schrack A
2 Schrack B

12 Mechs

12 Heavy Tanks
8 Light Tanks

16 Squads of Level I BA

Dragau II Interceptor

Pile all of these into a Tramp jumpship

But yeah... 6 SH leading Two separate C3commsnds, 1st and 2nd  Aphrodite are connected to each other and their respective rides. The other units are whatever you're willing to support them.

See you in your nightmares soon,
Truetanker  :evil:

PS: lights don't help either...  :cool:
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #26 on: 22 September 2023, 01:07:31 »
RotS doesn't organize in groups of six.
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truetanker

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #27 on: 22 September 2023, 01:33:25 »
Which is why I left openings...

Never said direct connections only listed Masters and Slaves one Master connect two Aphrodite, and  then Master 2 connect Slaves...

Each Aphrodite can connect to 5 other units if need be... And there's two of 'em!

TT
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TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
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Hellraiser

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #28 on: 22 September 2023, 09:28:42 »
The Superheavy accomodations was a refit- perhaps stripped out another pair of Level IIs?

IIRC it was from a larger cargo bay. 
The "OG/CS" model had more cargo to support the rest of the force in other DS
The Republic model converted the 1 big bay into 7 bays by designating 220 for each SH Bay out of the larger total.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Superheavy Company?
« Reply #29 on: 22 September 2023, 09:37:49 »
RotS doesn't organize in groups of six.

My guess is C* planned on using the Duat to support the rest of a L-III or larger taskforce.
It brings in 2 L-2's & had the cargo to support a larger force at nearly 2K tons & the Artillery as well.
Add a Union, Assault Triumph, Condor, Leo-CV and you've got a couple mixed L-IIIs there.


The RotS meanwhile would likely deploy 2 Heavy/Assault lances & a Light Lance using 6 SH + 2 H/A Mechs + a typical 1-2 Med/3-4Light lance.
Basically spotters for the Artillery & the big boys.  That baby Drone Mech would be a solid option as part of the company & to spot.

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