Rank the mechs: 3039 heavies

[garhkal]

OK.. here goes.

DRG-1N Dragon - A solid design, but one i rarely used.

QKD-4G Quickdraw - had 3 times i used it..  died all 3 times from ammo explosions.

CPLT-C1 Catapult - one of my 2 favorite heavies....  this and the archer define LRM spamming.

JM6-S JagerMech - loved the figure look, but hated the design.  Still i liked the concept of a 'flipping arm mech'.

GHR-5H Grasshopper - What's not to love about a jumping heavy!

ON1-K Orion - Didn't ever use it.

CTF-1X Cataphract - It was ok, but almost all my uses of it, i was easily destroyed..

CHP-2N Champion - see orion.

LNC25-02 Lancelot - see orion

BMB-10D Bombardier - Tried to be like the archer/catapult..  Failed to me.

GLT-4L Guillotine - Nice design..  hated it in play though.

BL-7-KNT Black Knight - Liked the look like the jager.. didn't get into its playability until later.

FLS-7K Flashman - a good all around flashbulb mech.

OSR-2C Ostroc - One of the best punchers, along with its brother the ostol.

OTL-4D Ostsol - as mentioned in the MOTW i made for it, i loved it.

RFL-3N Rifleman - Loved it better than the jagger but had more issues with it in play due to heat.

CRD-3R Crusader - one of the best all round designs..

TDR-5S Thunderbolt - liked it for the arm mounted large laser

ARC-2R Archer - DA BOMB!

WHM-6R Warhammer - Defined PPC smacking along with the awesome.

MAD-3R Marauder - Linked with the War hammer, was one of the best.. if underarmored..

Top 5-
warhammer
crusader
archer
catapult
Ostol

Mid 5
Flashman
ostroc
Maurader
T.bolt
Dragon.

[Dayton3]

I like the evaluations here.    I've always thought the Grasshopper was very underrated and the Marauder overrated.     And I notice the Cataphract  getting well deserved attention.   I always thought its Capellan "frankenmech" origins pulled people's opions down.

By the way, what about the Ceasar or the Axeman?

[Neufeld]

By the way, what about the Ceasar or the Axeman?

Well, those two belongs in a discussion about the TRO3050U. But to be brief: The Caesar has the nice ERPPC + GR combo but could use a little more armor, and the Axman is a good idea hurt by placing the MLs and the Hatchet in the same arm.

[bakija]

I like the evaluations here. I've always thought the Grasshopper was very underrated and the Marauder overrated.

The Marauder certainly has problems--not enough heat sinks and that unfortunate ton of ammo in an otherwise empty torso location. But, much like the also significantly flawed Warhammer, it has 2xPPC. Which for the 3025 era, is about as good a heavy weapons suite as you can get (without, ya know, being the Awesome). And the AC5, while a total liability due to the ammo and it could be better off as pretty much anything else, is something that just fires all the time anyway--walk, fire the 2xPPC and the AC5 at longish range, and you have the potential to do a lot of damage while only generating 6 net heat. Which isn't particularly debilitating for the next turn. As I mentioned elsewhere, the version that swaps the AC5 for a LL and then 4 more heat sinks is one of the best heavy Mechs of the era. But the basic version is still good enough for what you have available in that time frame.

[Doug Glendower]

ON1-K Orion


FLS-7K Flashman
TDR-5S Thunderbolt

21 - QKD-4G Quickdraw : No. Just no.
20 - JM6-S JagerMech : Ranging is good. Armour would have been better.
19 - CHP-2N Champion : The AC-10's not good enough to make up for the flaws
18 - BMB-10D Bombardier : Please sir, may I have some more ammo?
17 - RFL-3N Rifleman : I personally love the 'Mech, but it needs heat sinks and ammo like no ones business.
16 - MAD-3R Marauder : A bomb. A heat-loaded, mediocre bomb.
15 - OSR-2C Ostroc : I'm not sure why that SRM is so important.
14 - LNC25-02 Lancelot : Zombieness gets it this high, but it's a bit slow for it's role now.
13 - CPLT-C1 Catapult : Find me two tons of LRM ammo, stat!
12 - CRD-3R Crusader : Jack of all is master of none.
11 - DRG-1N Dragon : Good speed and the endurance to plink a bit from the outside while flanking.
10 - GLT-4L Guillotine : It's a pretty good infighter, with little coverage going in.
09 - OTL-4D Ostsol : It's armour stops it here.
08 - GHR-5H Grasshopper : The LRM 5 gives it a slight edge over the GLT
07 - WHM-6R Warhammer : Flexibility to fight inside, and the twin PPCs for ranging.
06 - BL-7-KNT Black Knight : Kinda a heat pig, but there's options and decent armour
05 - ARC-2R Archer : Long range missile spam at it's 3039 best.
04 - CTF-1X Cataphract : Good mid-ranged fighter, solid armour, decent heat dissipation.
03 - ON1-K Orion : A lot of ammo, but a lot of low-heat weapons to keep one's options open. Armour, armour, and armour.
02 - FLS-7K Flashman : Braaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnssssssss.
01 - TDR-5S Thunderbolt : Just a solid, all-around, military machine.

[Kos]

While the Quickdraw is no star I have used it fairly well in the following manner:  Skirmisher/physical attacker for a cavalry lance.  With a variety of weapons + jumpjets it can skirmish well, but I almost always give the pilot a higher piloting skill than gunnery for physical attacks.  It charges in with the rest of the cavalry, then sticks it to the enemy kicking/DFAing anyone it can, keeping the enemy engaged while the rest of the lance cools down from the initial 'charge' near-alpha-strikes.  In my mind this is what the rear facing mls are actually useful for, covering it's back while it punches/kicks.  I recently shredded a Wolf's Dragoons Warhammer in this way; just kept hopping around, shooting, and kicking, then finished it off with a DFA when it had lost a lot of mobility from leg crits ect. while simultaneously blowing away a Wasp with the rear facing lasers.  Underestimate my piloting skill 2 Quickdraw at your peril (sounds weird doesn't it?)     

[Diamondshark]

While the Quickdraw is no star I have used it fairly well in the following manner:  Skirmisher/physical attacker for a cavalry lance.  With a variety of weapons + jumpjets it can skirmish well, but I almost always give the pilot a higher piloting skill than gunnery for physical attacks.  It charges in with the rest of the cavalry, then sticks it to the enemy kicking/DFAing anyone it can, keeping the enemy engaged while the rest of the lance cools down from the initial 'charge' near-alpha-strikes.  In my mind this is what the rear facing mls are actually useful for, covering it's back while it punches/kicks.  I recently shredded a Wolf's Dragoons Warhammer in one this way; just kept hopping around, shooting, and kicking, then finished it off with a DFA when it had lost a lot of mobility from leg crits ect. while simultaneously blowing away a Wasp with the rear facing lasers.  Underestimate my piloting skill 2 Quickdraw at your peril (sounds weird doesn't it?)     

You know, that's actually a really good idea. I need to try sometime...

[Doug Glendower]

While the Quickdraw is no star I have used it fairly well in the following manner:  Skirmisher/physical attacker for a cavalry lance.  With a variety of weapons + jumpjets it can skirmish well, but I almost always give the pilot a higher piloting skill than gunnery for physical attacks.  It charges in with the rest of the cavalry, then sticks it to the enemy kicking/DFAing anyone it can, keeping the enemy engaged while the rest of the lance cools down from the initial 'charge' near-alpha-strikes.  In my mind this is what the rear facing mls are actually useful for, covering it's back while it punches/kicks.  I recently shredded a Wolf's Dragoons Warhammer in one this way; just kept hopping around, shooting, and kicking, then finished it off with a DFA when it had lost a lot of mobility from leg crits ect. while simultaneously blowing away a Wasp with the rear facing lasers.  Underestimate my piloting skill 2 Quickdraw at your peril (sounds weird doesn't it?)   

Exterminator at least keeps the weapons forward while doing the same thing. No. Just no.

[bakija]

And a re-look at the 3039 less obvious Heavies:

-Cataphract: This guy is actually pretty solid. PPC, AC10, 4xMLs (although 2 of them face backwards, but being a 4/6 heavy with no jump jets, they could certainly be useful.), enough heat sinks for continual movement and fire of the heavy guns, and pretty solid armor. Yes, the AC10 could be another PPC and 6 more heat sinks, but as it is, I wouldn't feel bad at all about using this guy most of the time. Its biggest problem is that it only has 10 rounds for the AC10; I'd take out one of the heat sinks (going down to 15, which is enough to run and fire both the PPC and AC10 constantly with no net heat gained) and add a second ton of ammo. Totally reasonable.

-Champion: Fast for a heavy at 5/8, but not real impressive firepower with an AC10, SRM6, and 2 each ML and SL. Mostly suffers from having not enough armor. Still probably better than the similar Dragon, however.

-Lancelot: Good 'cause it has a PPC and Large Lasers and at least enough heat sinks to fire two of them a turn all the time while moving. If it gets close and has a good shot, an alpha strike of PPC, 2xLL, ML could do crippling damage to an opponent. But then the Lancelot is going to need to stand still to cool off for a turn. A little low on armor for a 60 tonner, but can do a lot of damage.

-Bombardier: A long range missile support mech with no staying power for its main role in the name of a few mostly superfluous close range weapons. Take out the SRM4 and MG, replace them with 2 more tons of ammo and a couple MLs, and then you at least have an Archer. But then, there already is an Archer.

-Guillotine: It is the well appreciated Grasshopper, but with an SRM6 instead of an LRM5. I'd rather have the SRM6 (as it supports the other close range weapons well) than the token LRM5 (which isn't going to have much effect if you can get inside laser range anyway). Solid armor, good heat sinks. Good heavy mech.

-Black Knight: Same as the Lancelot, but with more MLs for a close range alpha strike followed by a close range cooling off. More armor for when it has to stand there and cool off, good heat sinking capacity for non alpha strike continual operations. All around solid. Looks cool.

-Flashman: A lot of lasers, a lot of armor, a lot of heat sinks. It can't possibly be bad. I'd probably take the Black Knight for about the same BV due to it having a PPC on top of all the lasers, but Flashman is inarguably a very solid contender in any situation. If only it didn't look so goofy.

[willydstyle]

It's a mistake to compare the champion to other heavy mechs.  Compare it to other 5/8 mechs and you'll find it compares well.

[bakija]

It's a mistake to compare the champion to other heavy mechs.  Compare it to other 5/8 mechs and you'll find it compares well.

Well, it is certainly safe to compare it to the Dragon, which is also a 5/8 heavy. And it looks like an upgrade :-)

If you look at it relative to, say, the Crab and the Kintaro, which are both 5/8 and all three of them are about the same BV (1100 and change), they both look much better than the Champion too. I mean, yeah, it is reasonably cheap and fast for a 60 tonner, but even compared to most other 5/8 mechs that are smaller, it tends to fall short in comparison. The similarly sized and speed Ostol and Ostroc (60 ton 5/8s) also seem a lot more attractive. But then they are also about 9% more expensive.

[willydstyle]

I just really like AC10, SRM6 and 2 ML.  It does more damage than the Crab's 2 LL and ML at short ranges, and can critseek too (I'm discounting the Small Lasers that both mechs carry, as I find them to be only very situationally useful).  Not saying the Crab is bad, not by a long shot, but I think you may be underestimating the Champion's weapons suite. It has less armor than the Crab, but it's armor is fairly well laid out to make up for it. 

[garhkal]

Well, those two belongs in a discussion about the TRO3050U. But to be brief: The Caesar has the nice ERPPC + GR combo but could use a little more armor, and the Axman is a good idea hurt by placing the MLs and the Hatchet in the same arm.

That makes me wonder if/when we are going to discuss that TRO as a 'light/medium' etc thread..

[Neufeld]

That makes me wonder if/when we are going to discuss that TRO as a 'light/medium' etc thread..

Well, I have planned to (in a different format), but I have been so busy this month. Maybe after I have finished reading FM3085.

[bakija]

I just really like AC10, SRM6 and 2 ML.  It does more damage than the Crab's 2 LL and ML at short ranges, and can critseek too (I'm discounting the Small Lasers that both mechs carry, as I find them to be only very situationally useful).  Not saying the Crab is bad, not by a long shot, but I think you may be underestimating the Champion's weapons suite. It has less armor than the Crab, but it's armor is fairly well laid out to make up for it.

Fair enough--I prefer the Crab's suite due to the better ability to fight at, like, R10 (which is a good thing to be able to do, given the horror show that tends to start at R9...), but in close, the Champion is certainly going to have the potential to do more damage.

Given that the Champion is relatively cheap at 1116 BV, it isn't at all unreasonable gun wise. Compared to the standard 55 tonners of the Wolverine, Griffon, and Shadowhawk (which are all also around the same BV cost; Wolverine and Shadowhawk come out a bit under, Griffon a bit over), it is actually very well armed at the cost of some armor and the jump jets. One of the big problems with the 60 ton 5/8s is that putting in the jump jets takes a large chunk out of your available tonnage over the 55 tonners.

So as a somewhat oversized medium mech, Champion isn't at all bad. Relative to the Dragon, it is super awesome. Relative to the Ostalot twins, not as much, but still not horrible. Relative to the rest of the heavies (which are also much more expensive in terms of any measure you are going to use), it is kind of weak. So look at it as an oversized medium (which is where it sits costwise), and it is fine.

[bakija]

(deleted accidental double post)

[Kos]

Exterminator at least keeps the weapons forward while doing the same thing. No. Just no.

No doubt it's not ideal, but I tend to take a sub-optimal 'mech for 'fluffyness' purposes (I play 4th SW Kurita mostly hence the Quickdraw, Exterminator would be very rare).  It pays to learn how to use them effectively, especially when you play games with RATs.  Plus I 'fluffed' out my 4th Pros. Hussars QKD pilot as a Karate-do practitioner that's made the best of a bad ride, hey it's better than being dispossessed...the Whammer' kill was just icing on the cake.