Author Topic: Customs vs Stock Variants  (Read 16027 times)

bugman

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #30 on: 15 January 2015, 07:36:22 »
Low end. More BV = worse unit. When you have a force of 15,000 and 5,000 is in one 'Mech, a single head cap can kill 1/3 of your army. And will. I'd just slap together a lame force full of LB-X Carriers and junk like that to play roulette with the Head. Eventually he'll black out.

Creative to say the least. I wonder if the TC/Plaser guy would consider this cheese???? lol......

I think this would be fun as hell to play out........ Death by a thousand knife cuts.

I think I might need to rethink some earlier advice. I told Jackpot to not bring a knife to a gun fight. I think this knife might work pretty good. lol......

StoneRhino

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #31 on: 15 January 2015, 07:38:57 »
Well, Jackpot, what you and the pulse boat player are doing is likely to be something pretty common, going through various phases most BT players go through. It is hard for a new player to pass up the apparently awesome combination of pulse lasers and targeting computers, even with TW rules where the pulse lasers cannot use the targeting computer to make aimed shots. A big -3 to hit is rather enticing, so you cannot really blame the new guy.

You pointed out your own customization phase, which is to try and hedge your bets by padding your mechs' critical locations with stuff you wouldn't mind using, such as a small laser. When you look at the game from the point of view of someone playing a game it makes sense to try and pad those critical locations, but if you were a weapon designer in the BT universe you wouldn't likely slap a small laser on the head of every mech you designed. The small laser would actually bulk up the size of the head, which would make it an easier target.

The stock designs have, for most of the game's history, attempted to take a balanced approach towards the weapons mix and positioning of such. If you look at a lot of the 3025/3039 designs you'll start to see a lot of machine guns and flamethrowers, but as you get to the later tech readouts many of those AI weapons have been dropped. Part of the reasoning for that is er small lasers were doing 3 points of damage to infantry and had better ranges then MGs and flamethrowers, making it a compromise. Now with TW rules those er small lasers are worthless against infantry, and the need for MGs and flamers have come back. A lot of new players want to just play "mech only" games, which leads to customs missing those AI weapons.

I would say that your padding of components via custom variants is on par with the new guy with targeting computers and pulse lasers. One could say that one is more "new" then the other, but both are pretty "new" things to do. At the same time both are valid moves and used by those that have played the game longer. What balances out what your friend is doing is his units' BV2 scores. He is paying for his pulse+TC combo with points, but what you are doing is something that is effectively free. Last I checked there wasn't a difference in the BV2 value of a mech that puts a small laser that is in the arm to start, into the head to pad the pilot. This means that your friend could point to you and say that you are seriously gaming the system.

Customs are allowed at the table nowadays, just as they were back in the days in the games that I have played. Some of the people are different, and so is the force selection. Where 2 friends that used to be around always used customs, the new person to the group seems to use forces that are made up of stock designs, but also does not use proxies. This is much closer to what I and another guy have always done, which is to use I.S. stock designs with very few changes. If someone else joined the group and brought all custom designs, as long as those designs were validated for BV2 scores, and tech, and they let us know what each design was, theres no problem.

Things seem to change as you play the game longer. I have gone from using nothing but proxies and always making a few tweaks to the designs used, and using any design that happened to be I.S., or Clan, depending on what I was playing, to more faction based forces. Also, I have started painting minis in specific unit paint schemes. It takes far more time to design a force then before, but its another challenge to the game, especially when that starts to influence the minis that you purchase. I have been picking units I like for some reason, some to fill out the units I am building; and some designs that I don't really care much for, but are either solid designs of a faction, or fill out units nicely such as a locust. What it comes down to is finding different aspects of the game and learning it, having fun with the challenge of it, and then finding other aspects. Its a matter of time before you and your friend move into different phases.

mbear

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #32 on: 15 January 2015, 07:55:59 »
Set up a rotating schedule.  "Every other Tuesday is Stock Mechs Only." 

Put repeat usage limits on a design or theme, "You have to wait a month until you can use a Pulse laser/TC boat again."

If you do this you may want to include a "Maximum Munchkin" event: Players are encouraged to bring in their custom built Improved Jump Jet, Partial Wing equipped Pulse Laser Boat with Targeting Computer. "Who has the most cheese?"

Or take a page out of some of the Starterbooks.  Only 4 of the 12 Black Widow mechs are nonstandard.  So set a ratio of something like "1 custom per lance." 

Along with that, you may find the Customization rules in Historical: Reunification War (p. 147) or Historical: Liberation of Terra (pp. 146-147) interesting. They allow some customization but you can't go completely crazy.
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Col Toda

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #33 on: 15 January 2015, 08:17:39 »
I went with TAG and Homing Arrow IV and semi-guided LRMs route allong with C3 and heavy weapons. My pre jihad mech lance was a Naganata with the Artemis IV FCSs removed and a command console added half ammo semi guided half standard . Two Dragonfire 4F with both medium pulse lasers removed and a C3 slave , a TAG and  2 medium lasers  added  lastly an Anvil 8m with the head laser replaced with a  C3 slave and the ECM replaced with armor .It had 2 tons of homing and one ton of standard rounds for the Arrow IV . As you see l replaced a two ton pulse laser with a C3 slave and TAG and got good results in turn.

guardiandashi

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #34 on: 15 January 2015, 11:59:37 »
a couple of my "DUH" customizations was for the 3050 hunchback (HBK-5M), and the arrowcat (arrow iv packing catapult) because I find only packing a single ton of ammo for those massive weapon systems to be criminal.  in the hunchbacks case the change was easy pull 3 of the surplus DHS (from the arms) and replace them with ammo (I might also move the last DHS from the arm into the torso with the ammo also but ... )

on the arrowcat upgrading from 15shs to 10 DHS is again a no brainer idea for me, which would allow the mounting of up to 5 tons of additional ammo

TigerShark

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #35 on: 15 January 2015, 12:02:11 »
Yeah. Some of these shouldn't even have been TRO entries. They are one-offs which were more like field modifications than production variants. If anything, the -5M should have been mentioned as some kind of makeshift unit being fielded against the Clans which experimented with the recovered technology.
 
I'm solidly against listing severely flawed designs as regular TRO entries, outside of stuff like the XTROs.
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jackpot4

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #36 on: 16 January 2015, 16:23:18 »
So I played a stock variant game last night and it was a cool experience seeing how heat worked more than I have before.  I used:

Blackjack BJ-1DC
Battlemaster BLR-3M
Atlas AS7-K
Victor VTR-9K
Valiant V4-LNT-K7
Grasshopper GHR-5H

The Grasshopper, Battlemaster, and Victor performed the best.  I was too quick with the Valiant and the Blackjack I had way out of position unsupported.  Yes, the Atlas was blasting things with the Gauss rifle, but when things got hairy that Kurita model overheated very fast...  I think a good change would be to add two heat sinks, making it 22, swap the 2 ER Large Lasers and 2 medium pulse lasers for 2 regular Large Lasers and 2 medium lasers.

It almost felt like there was a third enemy, heat!  Thanks for all the helpful posts!
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guardiandashi

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #37 on: 16 January 2015, 20:57:17 »
So I played a stock variant game last night and it was a cool experience seeing how heat worked more than I have before.  I used:

Blackjack BJ-1DC
Battlemaster BLR-3M
Atlas AS7-K
Victor VTR-9K
Valiant V4-LNT-K7
Grasshopper GHR-5H

The Grasshopper, Battlemaster, and Victor performed the best.  I was too quick with the Valiant and the Blackjack I had way out of position unsupported.  Yes, the Atlas was blasting things with the Gauss rifle, but when things got hairy that Kurita model overheated very fast...  I think a good change would be to add two heat sinks, making it 22, swap the 2 ER Large Lasers and 2 medium pulse lasers for 2 regular Large Lasers and 2 medium lasers.

It almost felt like there was a third enemy, heat!  Thanks for all the helpful posts!

IMO the "better" fix for the atlas is to decrease the number of HS, swap them to doubles and stick the SRM6 back on it ... well it all fits, but I had some "distribution" issues, that I am not totally happy with such as ammo placement

jackpot4

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #38 on: 17 January 2015, 02:45:50 »
IMO the "better" fix for the atlas is to decrease the number of HS, swap them to doubles and stick the SRM6 back on it ... well it all fits, but I had some "distribution" issues, that I am not totally happy with such as ammo placement

That is the same issue I have noticed with not having much critical space.  But with the setup I made I found that all the primary weapons can be fired with only 23 heat and you can sacrifice 1 large to shoot both mediums in the rear.  And still be able to punch.  I like the idea of keeping the lrm 20.

During this game i got a "magic bb" (two 1s on location for one point of missile damage) rolled for two crits and both were gyros.  It was pretty nasty but I like the reach.
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Ice_Trey

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #39 on: 17 January 2015, 04:05:34 »
Stock only.

I warm up to the idea of Custom Mechs considerably if it's as part of a campaign, as there is a lot of risk involved in customizing a mech. I figure if someone wants to get liberal with a mech, there should be some risk involved in order to keep them from creating god-bots that steal the show. Just so much as swapping the single heat sinks for doubles in a Venom makes a so-so machine into an absolute beast, so not having any risk to the reward sits ill with me.

But if I'm just playing a run-of-the-mill "Let's pick 6000 BV and smash'em together" matches, I would be very clear about a stock-mechs-only restriction in place. I don't want to lose before I get to the table because I bring the mechs I read about in TROs and novels, while the other guy fields the meanest unbeatable assemblage of lego blocks without a backstory.

House Davie Merc

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #40 on: 17 January 2015, 04:08:37 »
All canon stock mechs ALL the time .

Don't get me wrong ,I'd like to be able to just tweek a few
minor items on some mechs but that ALWAYS opens
up Pandora's Box .

Once that's open -going back is nearly impossible .

We did manage to go back after opening that box ,and it was
REALLY hard .


I'd like to see a viable "point system " for modifying units .

Something that forces players to work within a previously set limit .
Kind of similar to using Battle Value to maintain balance .

Each side gets X points for mods ,and mods all have a listed price .

" You get  6000 BV 2 and  300 mod points .
Minimum 4 units and maximum of 8 .
Unused mod points can be directly converted to BV . "

Ice_Trey

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #41 on: 17 January 2015, 04:42:57 »
a couple of my "DUH" customizations was for the 3050 hunchback (HBK-5M), and the arrowcat (arrow iv packing catapult) because I find only packing a single ton of ammo for those massive weapon systems to be criminal.  in the hunchbacks case the change was easy pull 3 of the surplus DHS (from the arms) and replace them with ammo (I might also move the last DHS from the arm into the torso with the ammo also but ... )

on the arrowcat upgrading from 15shs to 10 DHS is again a no brainer idea for me, which would allow the mounting of up to 5 tons of additional ammo

Mind you, a lot of the "Duh" stems from equipment shortages, refits and retools rather than fully new mechs, and "New toy syndrome" commonly seen in the period.

Ferro Fibrous, for example. It's far smarter to go Endo, but endo means you have to gut the whole thing. Putting on a new shirt is a lot easier than replacing all your bones.

Also on the equipment shortages aspect, Arrowcat from Capellans likely didn't have great access to DHS, and/or thought it prudent to save it for line units like the Vindicator. The cappies were supposed to be one of the first on the scene to bring back homing Arrow IV, I think, so even one ton of those could do quite a number.

As for the Hunchback, that's just new-toy-syndrome plain and simple, not unlike the Grasshopper and Panther "Upgrades".

guardiandashi

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #42 on: 17 January 2015, 05:51:45 »
Mind you, a lot of the "Duh" stems from equipment shortages, refits and retools rather than fully new mechs, and "New toy syndrome" commonly seen in the period.

Ferro Fibrous, for example. It's far smarter to go Endo, but endo means you have to gut the whole thing. Putting on a new shirt is a lot easier than replacing all your bones.

Also on the equipment shortages aspect, Arrowcat from Capellans likely didn't have great access to DHS, and/or thought it prudent to save it for line units like the Vindicator. The cappies were supposed to be one of the first on the scene to bring back homing Arrow IV, I think, so even one ton of those could do quite a number.

As for the Hunchback, that's just new-toy-syndrome plain and simple, not unlike the Grasshopper and Panther "Upgrades".
I agree and I get it (in universe).  It makes a lot of sense for a lot of the refits to have issues. I think most of the hunchback refit details were good were good, however as a whole it had serious issues.
I mean look at what actually changed from the 4g to the 5m
the armor is the same, the ac20 itself wasn't changed, but the ammo was cased increasing survivability, the heat dissipation was doubled and the small laser was replaced with a small pulse laser, at the cost of 1/2 the ammo.  most of the changes taken in isolation (except the ammo change) were decent to good.  frankly its the ammo reduction that I have the biggest issue with.  and the fluff reads like this was a "standard refit /upgrade/ new model" like there are lots of them out there.  frankly loosing 1-3 of the "extra" dhs for more ammo, or loosing the small laser for the case would have been better... but it is what it is.

FedComGirl

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #43 on: 17 January 2015, 07:13:21 »
I have no problem with flawed designs being a TRO. Not every unit is going to be as good as it looks on paper. It does happen that flawed units do make it into production. And sometimes units modified in the field end up being the basis for production variants. Besides not every unit is going to be perfect. If every unit were perfect there would be no need for upgrades or new units to replace the old.

Personally, I go with both. I like customs and I like stock units. I don't go for munckiny though. My customs are mostly campaign oriented. I like units with history to them. The rest are fill in the blank upgrades and downgrades, and technicals.

I would think it'd be getting more and more difficult to determine if a unit is a custom or not anyway. With computer programs you'd have to have all the products to check to see if an unfamiliar unit is canon or not.

jackpot4

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #44 on: 17 January 2015, 09:24:36 »
I have no problem with flawed designs being a TRO. Not every unit is going to be as good as it looks on paper. It d7oes happen that flawed units do make it into production. And sometimes units modified in the field end up being the basis for production variants. Besides not every unit is going to be perfect. If every unit were perfect there would be no need for upgrades or new units to replace the old.

Personally, I go with both. I like customs and I like stock units. I don't go for munckiny though. My customs are mostly campaign oriented. I like units with history to them. The rest are fill in the blank upgrades and downgrades, and technicals.

I would think it'd be getting more and more difficult to determine if a unit is a custom or not anyway. With computer programs you'd have to have all the products to check to see if an unfamiliar unit is canon or not.

I just wish the master unit list had the specs for mechs so we could check on them.  I cant lug Solaris skunk werks around and sarna doesnt have every detail about each mech.
« Last Edit: 17 January 2015, 14:10:46 by jackpot4 »
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FedComGirl

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #45 on: 17 January 2015, 12:29:07 »
That'd be nice but then I think we'd have to pay to use it. It might be worth it if it were downloadable though. Then we wouldn't have to worry about internet connections when we game.

TS_Hawk

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #46 on: 17 January 2015, 12:44:09 »
Customs vs Stock variants a lot of the stock variants don't have the armor because they have more firepower where as like the OP my customs are max armor but I have to sacrifice some of the weapons. The other thing 2 about my customs is that I have enough heatsinks to where I am not going to cook the pilot. And will still be able to run the mech.

However the sad thing is that you really can't use customs in Alphastrike as far as I know.

I just wish the master unit list had the specs for mechs so we could check on them.  I cant lug Solaris sjunk were around and sarna doesnt have every detail about each mech.

Download megamekHQ and use the meklab or just get the meklab separate

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Col.Hengist

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #47 on: 17 January 2015, 14:05:25 »
There is always machine shop and mech factory
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Cidwm

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #48 on: 17 January 2015, 15:00:44 »
       I don't know what the big deal is, let noobs bring pulse boats to the table. Makes your job easier as an experienced player. You will be able to school new players on how to actually play this game properly. Man for the BV he has to be paying for those custom TC+Pulse boats that I am sure every new player tries to build heat neutral you could bring all kinds of hurt to the table. Man for 15k BV I could buy a company of LRM carriers that I could parked behind a hill and fire 720 lrms indirectly at a Mech per turn while spending the rest on fast movers with tag. I could bring flamers on these fast movers to over heat those laser freaks. The new players Mechs would have to fight in the shade of my LRM rain. I could bring the weapon I really fear to face, LB-X auto cannons that turn pilots into salsa with out ever killing said machine. I could bring thunder munitions or any host of other strategies to win.

       Wait I wonder how many Savannah masters could I bring for 9-15k to show off real cheese? Runs off laughing manically! [wildandcrazy] >:D }:)

cavingjan

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #49 on: 17 January 2015, 15:05:41 »
Or the record sheet PDFs. on a phone or tablet.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #50 on: 17 January 2015, 15:40:47 »
Typically, we go with stock variants of choice, and go with customs for 1 'mech per lance. As we always play 2 lance games, this proves to be pretty useful, and it has one twist; We are not allowed to field the same custom against the same opponent twice without permission from said opponent.

FedComGirl

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #51 on: 17 January 2015, 17:40:06 »
You'd still have to search through every record sheet to make sure the program wasn't cheating. That's a lot of record sheets. Do the record sheet books have all the variants from all the sourcebooks? How easy is it to search them? If they don't have every canon variant you're back to having to have all the sourcebooks with you. That's a lot of stuff to lug around. Not that I'm complaining about there being a lot of Battletech stuff. There's never enough stuff!  ;D 

But I see the programs as a double edged sword. They're great if you have them, and understand them. But they also make it easier to cheat and it also alienates those without them. There is a strong pre-printed record sheet or nothing sentiment. But it comes right back to how do you know those pre-printed record sheets are canon?  :-\

DarkISI

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #52 on: 18 January 2015, 05:35:12 »
You'd still have to search through every record sheet to make sure the program wasn't cheating. That's a lot of record sheets. Do the record sheet books have all the variants from all the sourcebooks? How easy is it to search them? If they don't have every canon variant you're back to having to have all the sourcebooks with you. That's a lot of stuff to lug around. Not that I'm complaining about there being a lot of Battletech stuff. There's never enough stuff!  ;D 

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FedComGirl

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #53 on: 18 January 2015, 08:58:21 »
You would still have to have every Record Sheet plus carry the internet around with you. Not something everyone can do.

Besides does the Master Unit List have every unit in it? And I do mean every single unit. I remember being told and reading many posts saying if it wasn't on the MUL it wasn't canon. Not canon even though the book, opened to the page for that unit, would be sitting on my lap. I'm sorry but that kind of thing makes me question the validity of the MUL and in my mind puts it on par with the Heavy series of programs. A great resource if you have access to it and it works for your concerns. If not, it's just not much help.

Actually, the MUL has the potential to make things worse. Since the MUL controls which units are canon and if only canon units are allowed in the game, you could be denied the use of units even though you've got the book and record sheets with you. You end up with a fight over what's canon. Something printed or a web page that isn't up to date and may never be?  :-\

My apologies if I sound like a pessimistic witch but some of the attitudes I've seen here about customs and pre-printed record sheets, plus the MUL have really soured me on the use of programs and the MUL itself. If they work for you that's great. But I don't see them as the answer to cheats the way some see banning hand written record sheets.
« Last Edit: 18 January 2015, 09:08:59 by FedComGirl »

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #54 on: 18 January 2015, 09:05:03 »
I pretty much play exclusively with stock 'Mechs these days.  There are so many 'Mechs and variants out there nowadays that if you can't find what you're looking for then you aren't looking hard enough IMO.  That said, I'd have no problem with custom variants in friendly games with folks that I trust not to go overboard.  There are counters to pretty much every sort of shenanigans you can cobble together using the Tech rules, but that leads to an escalation/one-upsmanship type of game that I generally find boring and pointless. 
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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #55 on: 18 January 2015, 10:53:28 »
You would still have to have every Record Sheet plus carry the internet around with you. Not something everyone can do.

Besides does the Master Unit List have every unit in it? And I do mean every single unit. I remember being told and reading many posts saying if it wasn't on the MUL it wasn't canon.

You seem to be mixing things up: If it isn't on the MUL, it has no canon Record Sheet. That is very different from: If it isn't on the MUL, it isn't canon.
Canon Record Sheet simply means, a Record Sheet produced by CGL since the switch to Total Warfare and the TW style RS.
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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #56 on: 18 January 2015, 11:29:01 »
Usually. We strive to get everything up when it is released but sometimes it doesn't quite happen.

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #57 on: 18 January 2015, 11:44:40 »
For the most part, pick up games are stock anymore.  Helps people with knowing what is being brought onto the table.

Scenarios... mechs, customs within reason.  Vehicles...  if the player can justify it, sure...  I am a gear nut IRL and know that conventional forces are way too diverse to just be limited to the rather lackluster canon vehicle core... as long as the theme stays across the unit.

Campaigns...  hell, skies the limit.   Considering that there is usually a ton of RP or scenarios linked together, why not let players tinker accordingly?   It's my job as a GM to keep the story interesting and their job to have fun.  If that fun they are looking for involves them dragging that salvaged Hollander they got last session into a garage and rebuilding it from scratch or making a Hunchback carry two PPCs, more power to them.
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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #58 on: 18 January 2015, 11:53:28 »
My question to everyone is how do they play?  Customs or stocks? 
My preference is to play 100% "stock" or "canon" mechs and varients for myself.  When I first started playing, there were a lot of people in the group who took delight in running uber-optimized customs which walked all over 90% of the canon designs (especially as we balanced games predominantly by tonnage).  This left such a bad taste in my mouth, to this day I have a poor opinon of custom mechs.

That said, I know for a lot of people one of the best things about the game are the customiziton rules and I cut myself off from a large percentage of the potential opponens if I won't play against customs.  I think if your opponents are reasonable people (and sorry, but a whole force of pulse boats is not reasonable), and you use BV instead of tonnage or weight class for balancing games, you can play stock versus custome games without too much trouble. 

Mike

7th Sword of Light - House Hiritsu - 3rd Bear Guards

Tymers Realm

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Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
« Reply #59 on: 18 January 2015, 12:48:09 »
Now my view might mean all that much, but like most of the responses here, I'd say it will depend on the type of overall game you're playing.

For me, I hadn't really been involved in BTech for nearly 20 years or so and only got interested again after a Grinder demo at a convention in Nov/2014. My last books were the Post-Solaris 7/Unbound Tech supplment book and the 3055 Tech readout from the FASA days. So most of my experience, and mech tweaking, is up thru Clan Invasion/pre-FCCW era. I did try some of the BTech clicks that came out, but never really got into that, as well.

When I did play, the "regular" group didn't have a severe issue with customs, but it was mostly variants rather than OMG customs. Hell even when I do create variants/customs, I'm not looking to min/max, but to try and come up with a rough balance of mobility/armor/firepower/heat management. I prefer XL Engines and DHS over Endo-Steel and F-F Armor, but will use those if it works for the design, especially if I'm modding a 3050/55 stock design.

Basically, you're just gonna have roll with what happens and see where things go.

Thank you for the time...

 

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