Question on Shattered Fortress

[GermanSumo]

Hi guys,  i hope, i can ask the question here. If not the moderators can just close this thread and i apologize for spoilers.

So... i was lucky enough to have a wife that presented me the Beginner Box, the Game of Armored Combat Box and a copy of Shattered Fortress for my birthday 2 days ago  8) 8) 8) 8) And i did take some time to read into the final year of action before some unknown naval force came knocking on terras door. I read some of the side boxes where Devlin talked with Tucker... and i realized something. When i read about the RAF before, they had about 20 regiments give or take... and now they had a decade and some more to churn out new units/regiments and recruits from "Prefecture 1". Plus their new Fidelis-inspired combined arms forces. The book gives several unit mentions with the RAF units fighting their various deployments and battleplans throughout the year between the downed fortress wall and the arrival of the fleet. But during all this time i felt like Daoshen thinking to myself: Where the eff are the RAF???? I am no expert on the Dark Ages and later troop count... but it looked to me like most of the RAF are not being utilized up to that point? Maybe about 20% or so? For an All-or-Nothing-Situation the Republic  finds itself in this seems pretty restraint.

So my questions are the following: Is my gut feeling about the RAF hiding their strength right? Did anybody count the exact numbers of RAF units mentioned during 3149/3150?

[Colt Ward]

Welcome to the club!

The lack of force building in around 15 years is a bit puzzling since its taking some of the oldest settled worlds.

[GermanSumo]

Welcome to the club!

The lack of force building in around 15 years is a bit puzzling since its taking some of the oldest settled worlds.

yeah... it felt like everybody waited for the wall to go down and the republic coming out with full force and flying fists (or jumping, angry mechs LOL). instead... eery silence, apart from some militias and those new combined arms units.

[Frabby]

Stone borrowed all troops he could spare to Davion for his merry romp through Liao space, a three-pronged offensive to retake New Syrtis.
While at the same time the RotS was literally beset on all sides, what with Liao, Kurita and not one but two Clans racing towards Terra. That's bound to spread the army a bit thin... plus, in BattleTech you can always explain holes in your defenses with a lack of JumpShips to bring troops to where they're actually needed. All the regiments in the Inner Sphere are no good if they're one jump away from where you're getting hammered.

[Colt Ward]

Julian got one elite equipped regiment- the Dawn Guard.  The Dav Auxiliaries were from Davions in Lyran space and more picked up among the Remnant, while 'Republic' leaning troops they were not from inside the Fortress.

Besides, they had 15 years to position the troops- they were launching raids outside the Fortress for intel after all.  The Knights were broken up as a group, sent to be officers in the regiments who would face the on coming waves and share their determination to save the Republic.  Exarch Levin brought in portions of other Prefectures' forces as determined by shipping schedules which means IMO it was determined who could be summoned with their transport at hand . . . and the Republic fleet was summoned inside except for the single corvette.  Fifteen years to set up guerrilla preparations on the expected Enemy Wave 1 worlds to bog down the best units that start the push . . . but worlds were abandoned and no opposition really encountered, or limited as I remember.

Daoshen is right to worry . . . when you expect to face enemy troops and do not, its natural to worry about where they are . . . and what they plan?

Btw, I know we had a theories thread . . . anyone ever suggest it was a Fox flotilla to transport a Republic army for a counteroffensive?

[Arkansas Warrior]

I thought that that was kind of the point.  They were  massing most of their forces in and around Terra, basically allowing Liao, Kurita, the Wolves, etc to take the outer shell of Fortress worlds, in return for making Terra herself (and Mars, et al) virtually.  Much as the Fortress was to the Republic as a whole, but in miniature.

[Wrangler]

Another factor was there were rewrites since Field Manual: 3145.  New management coming in and wanting Shattered Fortress to be redone.

I think by doing so, they changed what should have been into something else we have now.

[Stormlion1]

Another option is Terra is so heavily reinforced that it would need massive amounts of forces to take it. Far more than they used when it was taken from WoB. And it wouldnt suprise me if some of that rebuilding the RoTS did was rebuilding the static defences, the orbital defence weapons, and maybe some warship construction with lots of pocket warship construction added on top.

[pfarland]

Or maybe realizing that they WILL lose either to the first invasion from outside or the next or the one after that, The Republic just LEFT.

Listen, you know you have more than a decade or so to prepare for an invasion from all fronts and by all comers. Sure you might be able to beat down the first attacker or three, but you know more are coming. If you stay and defend, you WILL lose. You have two choices really Stay and lose or Retreat and live to return later.

You DON'T shift to wartime production, you start making Jumpships and Dropships for carrying as much of the RoTS as you can. You pull a Kerensky and just GTFO, except this time you have 15 YEARS to get ready to leave and without any worry of secrecy. You can pack up entire FACTORIES and production lines. You could potentially take most of the population of Prefecture X if you get enough ships made. Imagine that, the enemy finally comes in and only finds a token force and population left with the planets stripped of most modern tech. You take your fleet and jump above the galactic plane to escape or use dead systems or ones that have never been settled as Jump points on your way out.

You have the Fidelis out there somewhere as an ally. You might be able to find some Wobbies (or even already know where they are and been sitting on the info), if you're willing to make a deal with the devil. You might even be able to track down the Wolverines if you had Interstellar Expeditions working on the problem long enough...

[Arkansas Warrior]

Or maybe realizing that they WILL lose either to the first invasion from outside or the next or the one after that, The Republic just LEFT.

Listen, you know you have more than a decade or so to prepare for an invasion from all fronts and by all comers. Sure you might be able to beat down the first attacker or three, but you know more are coming. If you stay and defend, you WILL lose. You have two choices really Stay and lose or Retreat and live to return later.

You DON'T shift to wartime production, you start making Jumpships and Dropships for carrying as much of the RoTS as you can. You pull a Kerensky and just GTFO, except this time you have 15 YEARS to get ready to leave and without any worry of secrecy. You can pack up entire FACTORIES and production lines. You could potentially take most of the population of Prefecture X if you get enough ships made. Imagine that, the enemy finally comes in and only finds a token force and population left with the planets stripped of most modern tech. You take your fleet and jump above the galactic plane to escape or use dead systems or ones that have never been settled as Jump points on your way out.

You have the Fidelis out there somewhere as an ally. You might be able to find some Wobbies (or even already know where they are and been sitting on the info), if you're willing to make a deal with the devil. You might even be able to track down the Wolverines if you had Interstellar Expeditions working on the problem long enough...

???   We know they didn't do that..

[PsihoKekec]

You could potentially take most of the population of Prefecture X if you get enough ships made.

You couldn't take even a fraction of population of Prefecture X with the ships Republic has at hands and could make in those 15 years.

[Wrangler]

It would been more logical that the Republic had built up bigger force to defend, the writers put in a weakness of there being no Republic Standing Guard to defend the individual worlds.  The FM:3145 had suggested the most of the rebuild military formations (some i think) were Division size (like SLDF size formations) with a lot of Combined arms filling around those Regiment of Mech at their core.  That's a lot firepower, perhaps not a lot of mobility though.

Shattered didn't gleem too much information how well these bigger formations performed. Nevermind the mighty clobbering first of the Stone's Brigade of Regiments. Those guys were the elite.

NorthWind supposedly had some factories running by now, Targe, for example. (i know it's a bad mech).  All of those factories in New Earth was pumping stuff out from hidden factories for the ComStar/WoB splinter group which out put went to the Republic.  Sol System's factories were supposedly gearing up for production. I don't know, i just didn't see a lot this stuff ending up making enough numbers to make a difference.   15 years was enough time get something going, i think concentrate weakness in the Republic's regiments behind the blinders of the Fortress wasn't going to cut it.

[Kojak]

Fifteen years was enough time for the Word of Blake to go from ten divisions to fifty-two.

[Colt Ward]

Fifteen years was enough time for the Word of Blake to go from ten divisions to fifty-two.

By stealing, salvaging and buying equipment across the Inner Sphere . . . and 10?  They had 10 when FMCS was written, but that was after taking Terra . . . it would be more accurate to say a couple of unformed divisions in '52 with the defection to the 50+ by '67.  Plus outfitting mercs & pirates along with false flag operations- along with unnumbered caches around Clan space.  The Republic started from a stronger position, but they are not buying across a pair of Houses and stealing everywhere else.

[Kojak]

The point is that given that the Republic has access to many of the same industrial resources (i.e. Terra and the other core worlds), it's not implausible for them to have undergone the same massive expansion in the same timeframe.

[Colt Ward]

But it was not just Terra that let the Blakists built up . . . they were buying from the League after skimming money off their transactions, had production out in the periphery . . . the Republic has what was shut down on Terra, New Earth, Northwind . . . and what, maybe Epsilon Eridani?

[GreekFire]

Alright, I just went through Shattered Fortress and compared the Republic formations with what we knew of them in FM:3145.

Although there are a few errors that might muddle things a bit (the 11th Triari seem to be everywhere, for example), it seems like most of the line Republic forces saw combat...they were just spread very thin.

The Triarii Protectors are mostly dead. The 11th is in a weird maybe dead/maybe not limbo state, while the 14th is unaccounted for. The other Regiments are destroyed.

The Principes Guards are entirely dead. All of their Battalions seem to be accounted for, and have been destroyed.

The Hastati Sentinels are very battered, but most of their formations retreated from their conflicts and largely survived. If I'm not mistaken, only the 11th and probably the 16th were fully destroyed.

The Fides Defenders are comparatively doing OK. Half of their Regiments were destroyed. The 3rd was unaccounted for, and the 5th and 6th have both seen combat but are still around.

Finally, all of the six regiments of Stone's Brigade are intact and mostly unaccounted for.
So if there's an ace in the hole here, it's involves them.

[hf22]

The big problem, which has been subject to explicit lampshading in both Shattered Fortress and the recent Shell Games short story, is that Stone's mystery plan doesn't seem to make much sense. Either it is just *really* bad and is going to fail in short order, or there is some hidden agenda which will count as success to Devlin?

The hints to date have been it might be a planned surrender to whomever will be the Ilclan, with Stone playing some role in the nature of the reformed Star League, which might be an acceptable success to him from a character perspective (i.e. accepting the ROTS failed to change society enough to be sustainable, so looking to the 3rd League as a chance for a more radical reshaping or something).

[pfarland]

Remember, we have the Fidelis out there that could play a part. And if I'm correct, they went looking for something.

What could the former Jaguars want? Probably a home world, but my conspiracy theory is that they go and find Clan Wolverine. They did have access to Terra and old ComStar databases and as such trusted and highly respected troops were probably allowed as much access into the old archives as they wanted. Combining Clan knowledge and the info that was collected by ComStar, CS's Explorer Corp, and Interstellar Expeditions they figured out where (or a few likely paths), that Wolverine had traveled.

[GreekFire]

Remember, we have the Fidelis out there that could play a part. And if I'm correct, they went looking for something.

When did they do that? I just looked through Shattered Fortress, last mention I found of them was during the Republic vs Republic battle on Callison.

[pfarland]

When did they do that? I just looked through Shattered Fortress, last mention I found of them was during the Republic vs Republic battle on Callison.

Been a while, maybe I'm wrong. Plus, book access is limited, in the middle of a move.

[Kojak]

Pretty sure you're thinking of the Kell Hounds?

[pfarland]

Not unknown for me to misremember things.

[Wrangler]

Kell Hound's main regiments were wiped out in Bonfire Fire of Worlds.  The remains of them were gathered by Calamity Kell and she took the survivors on revenge campaign in the Jade Falcon space and then exited the Inner Sphere for parts unknown.

[Colt Ward]

Not quite . . .

They were wiped out in Bonfire (Jellico's avatar was a KH Awesome dodging orbital strikes) along with some Horses by Malvina- b/c the Horses were taking too long.  Calamity had been sent with Trillian Steiner-Davion to ask for help from the FedSuns- she ended up as Julian's liaison.  Hounds were gone by the time she got back to Lyran space to pitch in for the Wolves 1st offensive against the Lyrans after halting the League attacks.  She ended up commanding the defense of Tharkad City . . . and then after that was done, she presumably tried to put the Hounds back together by recalling retired Hounds, getting new ones, and graduating trainees from their programs early.  We have no idea what size, quality or equipment she was able to put together before everything kicked off again but her equipment state should be pretty good- KH factories, Warden Wolf factories, Sea Fox trade, and whatever support Trillian threw her way.

Real question is, why was she not on Arc Royal with the recovering Hounds when Malvina invaded-  planetary defense units and the Warden Wolf garrison was all that were on planet.  The Wolf Khan was killed by treachery but some escaped . . . TRO3150 says she gathered the Hounds, Wolves? and a vague others before proceeding to hit the Falcons on her way 'back to where it all started.'  The question was she headed for where Katrina, Arthur, and Morgan found the black boxes in the periphery?  Clan Home worlds? or other points in Hound/Wolf history.  The Wolves bled out defending against Mad Malvina . . . some ended up re-joining the Crusaders, but they were few- IIRC the survivors voted against it.  To be honest from the pieces I would expect them to have at best two clusters of nominal strength, decent Isegrim support for the JS fleet . . . the Wolf JS/DS fleet would mostly be filled with support & refugees IMO, both Kell Hound & Wolf mixed together.

[False Son]

But it was not just Terra that let the Blakists built up . . . they were buying from the League after skimming money off their transactions, had production out in the periphery . . . the Republic has what was shut down on Terra, New Earth, Northwind . . . and what, maybe Epsilon Eridani?

There are Republic original facilities, like Rhodes Foundry on Devil's Rock deliberately included in Fortress Republic.  RAF Manufacturing on Terra, makers of the Lich.

[Colt Ward]

One more world and maybe another factory on Terra does still not make up for what the Blakists were stealing from the FedCom, Razzies, and Dracs let alone what they bought/skimmed from the League.

[False Son]

No.  Not at all.  I'm actually on your side.  I just wanted to be complete.

The other thing to remember is that the Republic was mostly operating in a closed circle, whereas the WOB supply chain, pre-Jihad was almost limitless.  ROM initiated data purges in the last days of WOB occupation of Terra.  There's no telling what sort of damage that did to the WOB manufacturing base.  It may not be as simple as saying the WOB assets were operational for the Republic to the same extent.

[Drewbacca]

I have the feeling that whoever becomes ilClan is going to have a ton of super heavy tripod mechs. I am really interested to see how things play out.

[Wrangler]

I have the feeling that whoever becomes ilClan is going to have a ton of super heavy tripod mechs. I am really interested to see how things play out.

Because their crewing compliment, i think their going to be "no go" mech.

Omegas maybe if they weren't tainted by the WoB connection, but their still one-crew machines last i checked (including the Republic HPPC variant - but no Record Sheet it for it.)