Is there any nation that gives aircraft pilots enlisted rank?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

As you know, mechwarriors are usually start with sergeant, if the warrior is not the officer. That's some kind of tank commander of our real world. And the leader of the lance(that is the same level with platoon) is a lowest ranked officer(around O1 to O2) or high ranked enlisted(around E8 to E9).

But the aircraft pilot on our real world is different with tank commander. On vast majority of armed force in our time, every single fixed wing pilot is an officer without exception. Only rotary wing pilots are either officer or warrant officer(and the very idea of 'warrant officer' is almost extinct on Battletech universe).

And... what about Battletech universe? Aerospace Fighter and Conventional Fighter still needs extensive training, but are they still treated with the same respect?

Air force/naval chain of command are separated with the ground, so even with the different ranks either sides are not able to interfere with the others easily. But is an aerospace fighter pilot treated at least equal to the lance commander or company commander, or they are just treated as same as a normal sergeant? Are there any armed forces that gives them enlisted rank instead of an officer rank, just as a mechwarrior just graduated the academy gets sergeant?

And what about mercenary units? Are each individual aerospace/conventional fighter pilots are treated as much as a mechwarrior or a tank commander?


Asides, what is the lowest rank of the rotary wing pilot/co-pilot in the most nations? Since the idea of WO is almost extinct, is every single rotary wing pilots also the officer as well, or many of them are enlisted just as enlisted tank commanders?

[Elmoth]

Given the relative focus of the game, si would say that they are officers, but LOWER than those of mechwarriors. Maybe aircraft have electronics that allow the plane to basically fly on its.own except for they tricky stuff or.something, but air wings are not a major thing here. The fact that planes and ASF are (I think) mechanically less complex than mechs might explain why as well.

[Emcha]

modern real life militaries make officers pilots mainly due to a bias against enlisted soldiers, who are not required to be college graduates or properly vetted in the military administration. likewise, mechwarriors tend to be similarly restricted to people who are at least somewhat trustworthy, I would imagine that a sort of flying sergeant equivalent to an entry level mechwarrior is not uncommon, but requires a certain amount of expertise such as able to understand and plot orbital trajectories and keep up with delta V expenditure on the fly.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Perhaps. Some kind of WO then?

But anyway, it seems that still the fixed wing pilot is required to be an officer.

[Emcha]

Perhaps. Some kind of WO then?

But anyway, it seems that still the fixed wing pilot is required to be an officer.

warrant officers are still officers, they just don't have command responsibilities. like how specialist and corporal are essentially the same rank but specialist isn't a leadership role while corporal is.

warrant officer began as a way to commission critical personnel like blacksmiths and carpenters without running into problems like a quartermaster hijacking the division's marching band to haul bridging equipment 30 miles behind the enemy lines to help a half-strength recon company and a single tank crew steal a pile of Kuritan gold.

[Hellraiser]

like how specialist and corporal are essentially the same rank but specialist isn't a leadership role while corporal is.

I don't think that is correct.   Specialist & Corporal are the same paygrade.

I've been out for a couple decades but I'm pretty sure WO are in between E9 and O1 in both pay grade & rank.

A WO4 is not the same as a Major & is paid less.

[Nav_Alpha]

Battletech  universe ranks Are weird. You can tell the original founders and writers were Navy/Air Force not Army.

I’d suggest - did you go to a military academy to be trained in your MOS, be it Mechwarrior, VTOL jock, etc? Then you come out a sergeant.
Unless you then also do OCS or some fancy finishing school.
This is actually mentioned in the novel, Flashpoint. They have a corporal Mechwarrior among the sergeants because he came through like a regional training battalion setup

[Intermittent_Coherence]

The only one that comes to mind is the US but this was back in WW2.
They needed a lot of warm bodies for the nascent Army Air Corps, so they set up a Flying Sergeant program to recruit promising enlisteds. Chuck Yeager was a notable product.

[Hellraiser]

I’d suggest - did you go to a military academy to be trained in your MOS, be it Mechwarrior, VTOL jock, etc? Then you come out a sergeant.
Unless you then also do OCS or some fancy finishing school.
This is actually mentioned in the novel, Flashpoint. They have a corporal Mechwarrior among the sergeants because he came through like a regional training battalion setup

This.
Regional Training Battalion could be Corporals   (Not sure if they have these for ASF however)
Recent Academy grads are Sgts.
OCS grads are Lts.


I also wonder if in BT you can be promoted from Sgt to Lt w/o going to OCS.
It seems like you would have to be able to for more elite units at least to have highly skilled lance commanders.
I think I recall seeing an example in canon but I can't recall where.

[Auberan]

In the Federated Suns book it mentions that they all graduate at Sergeant, but when a Mechwarrior would earn a promotion, they would be commissioned as a Subaltern. I would assume they attended an OCS course during their time in the Academy in that case.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

In the Federated Suns book it mentions that they all graduate at Sergeant, but when a Mechwarrior would earn a promotion, they would be commissioned as a Subaltern. I would assume they attended an OCS course during their time in the Academy in that case.

Interesting. Then although non-officer mechwarriors are start with a NCO, but they are treated as a pseudo cadet and can directly promote to the officer? A cadet that 'graduates' when they proves themselves and become a full officer?

If it is true, then it will reduce the gap between mechwarriors and aerospace fighter pilots - pilots are virtually officers, and although mechwarriors are start with NCO but they are considered as the officer candidates.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

And... it seems that the assumption is correct. In A Time of War, Military Academy section of the character creation says that;

.. As the place where MechWarriors learn their craft and all recruits are viewed as potential officer candidates, military academies have stricter entry requirements than simple enlistment.

And, although it is not forced, but Military School in A Time of War is divided to three groups;
-Academy: Provides advanced curriculum. You can learn...
--Advanced: Cavalry(Combat Vehicle), Infantry, Marine, MechWarrior, Aerospace/Conventional/Dropship Pilot, Scientist, Scout, Ship Crew, and analysis.
--Special: Doctor, Anti-Mech(infantry), Military Science, Battle Armor Pilot, Jumpship Pilot, Special Force.

-Enlisted: It is a lesser school that is focus on the conventional force. You can learn...
--Advanced: Cavalry, Infantry, Marine, Medical assistant, Police officer, Scout, Ship Crew, Military Technician.
--Special: Police Tactical Officer, Anti-Mech(infantry), Special Force, Vehicle/Aerospace Technician.

-House: Trained in the individual noble house rather than the normal military school.

You can learn basic(not on the list I have shown), then can also learn either advance or special, or all basic, advance and special.

And, there is an another optional school named Officer Candidate School, that only accepts the person graduated military, paramilitary, or police school. It takes one year of training and and it allows the officer rank to the character. The basic military training above doesn't give the officer at all, and you must also pick the OCS as well(you can pick multiple schools as long as you want to pay for the years).

So, it seems that the 'academy' doesn't gives all the graduates officer ranks, and the term academy in Battletech only means the 'advanced military training school' rather than what we think of the word 'academy' - the military school that make the officers. Although some graduates starts their career with the lowest ranked officer, but they are just have the OCS curriculum on their school.

Yes, it is only the character creation mechanism on A Time of War, but I am surprised that the word 'academy' doesn't make them officer.
---------------

edit: I found that it was originally SLDF's tradition that the graduates of the academy doesn't commission immediately and have sergeant instead, and after they prove themselves they are commissioned.

...And, I also found that Taurian aerospace pilot start their career as force sergeant which is enlisted rank, rather than officer. Wow, I didn't aware that there are any major nations that have enlisted pilots. Although they are also promoted to ensign same as most nation's mechwarriors.

[Emcha]

I don't think that is correct.   Specialist & Corporal are the same paygrade.

correct, they are technically peers as far as skill level and time in service. the point i'm making is that a corporal is a NCO and therefore is expected to be able to lead soldiers in the field, while a specialist is not expected to. one is a leadership position, the other is a specialty position.

specialist is a holdover from when we had technical sergeants who were basically the enlisted equivalent of warrant officers: subject matter experts who for administrative purposes were peers to actual NCOs but were not leadership positions.

although nobody adheres to the original intent of the CPL/SPC divide anymore, the specialist is/was supposed to specialize in something, while the corporal was supposed to be a team leader. one had leadership responsibilities, the other did not. the same is true for officers(all of them) and warrant officers(all of them).

A WO4 is not the same as a Major & is paid less.

it's not the pay i'm referring to, it's leadership responsibilities. warrant officers are completely separate ranks because their role is completely separate from regular officers and their commissioning is likewise completely different. almost nobody in the military can demote or relieve a warrant officer of his commission, because the warrant officer is meant to be a subject matter expert. the WO is the one who runs a shop and can tell a colonel that "no, C company's mechs aren't mission ready yet and you can get the ****** out of my shop until they are and stop harassing my techs."

they can also say things like "I don't give a ****** how much brass you have pinned to your chest it'll still be 24 hours before we can make planetfall and i'm NOT going to land this 8,000-ton dropship anywhere near that hurricane."

all without worrying about some social general drumming them out of the service for back sass.

I imagine ASF operations are similarly expertise intensive, moreso than battlemechs, due to needing to keep one eye on your delta V and another on how much you're going to need to get back to the mothership or else you'll die a freeze dried corpse in space as you careen off on an orbital trajectory that nobody will be able to transit to for at least 150 years.

I'f there's somebody out there who allows enlisted personnel to fly ASFs then they will need to have some distinction between a flying enlisted and any old conscript.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yeah. Although I found that SLDF gives academy graduates sergeant rather than lieutenant, aerospace pilot's extra study for more knowledge makes them enough time to earn the full officer rank when they are actually battle-ready with their aerospace fighter.

It's all the same even on our real worlds - pilots candidates of air force academy graduates are trained for the pilot after they are graduates the academy and commissioned, and they are usually have O2 or O3 pay grade when they are enter their survice as the pilot depend on the nations.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  There should be plenty (if not most) of nations that do that. Few countries are so lacking in pilots that they have to offer commissions and cash awards for them, even fewer countries could afford so many officers who are one-trick ponies.         
 
  Many WW2 aces were enlisted, as that was the rule among nations -a commission was earned, not a gift or term of service. Unless a character finishes OCS, they graduate from their respective academy (mech, aero, etc) as a NCO.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

  There should be plenty (if not most) of nations that do that. Few countries are so lacking in pilots that they have to offer commissions and cash awards for them, even fewer countries could afford so many officers who are one-trick ponies. 

   

Is it about the Battletech universe, right? Can you show the reference? I don't mean I can't trust that. I just didn't find the fluff about that so I want to check it by myself.     
 

Many WW2 aces were enlisted, as that was the rule among nations -a commission was earned, not a gift or term of service. Unless a character finishes OCS, they graduate from their respective academy (mech, aero, etc) as a NCO.

But commission also grants the pilots voices against stupid orders and plans that doesn't understand the aircraft, and give them privilege to encourage them to not defect. That's why almost all nations are just give them officer ranks during WW2, and vast majority of pilots through the whole war are actually officers, and only a fraction were NCO or enlisted(although Imperial Japanese makes the considerable numbers of enisted pilots). After WW2, develop of jet fighters makes pilots too precious asset as well. Both the aircraft and the pilot are so expensive to produce/train.

Imperial Japanese was the bad example of WW2 to not give them officer ranks. Most of such a precious soldiers were only remained at private to sergeant, and combined with their feudal culture makes them unable to have much voice on the plans. That's quite bad example, though, for at least sergeant MechWarriors in Battletech universe are directly promote to O1 grade officer and they can start the career with NCO rank when they graduate, unlike Imprerial Japanese that keep the pre-pilot training rank of the enlisted soldiers.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Is it about the Battletech universe, right? Can you show the reference? I don't mean I can't trust that. I just didn't find the fluff about that so I want to check it by myself.     

  Is OCS a given in character creation? The BT universe exhibits a huge number of Americanisms, such as officer-heavy forces, instead of a backbone of NCOs and a huge emphasis is placed on wealth in the universe.   

But commission also grants the pilots voices against stupid orders and plans that doesn't understand the aircraft, and give them privilege to encourage them to not defect.

  Rank did nothing to prevent Market Garden or the Ploesti Raids. From personal military experience, sergeant has more of a voice than a lieutenant in a tactical environment, and officer rank does not magically bestow anybody greater intelligence or insight. Defection has only been a problem when governments had inherent problems... In American terms, more money and benefits serve to lure away military pilots from becoming civilian pilots, who may earn far more money and benefits based on ability instead of rank.

That's why almost all nations are just give them officer ranks during WW2, and vast majority of pilots through the whole war are actually officers, and only a fraction were NCO or enlisted (although Imperial Japanese makes the considerable numbers of enlisted pilots).

  Of over 800 German pilots awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, about 170 ended the war (or were killed) as enlisted or NCO rank. Yes, one fifth is a fraction yet it is a large number, considering the Luftwaffe was bleeding pilots by the end of the war yet still saw fit to keep NCO pilots.
  An award in German terms is nothing like an award in American terms. An American given its nation's highest award would be taken from the front lines and sent on bond drives and treated like a movie star (Audie Murphy actually became a movie star), while a German soldier is thanked and sent back to fight, with full expectations that they will continue to fight at the same level of bravery and skill that earned their award, which makes far more sense.

After WW2, develop of jet fighters makes pilots too precious asset as well. Both the aircraft and the pilot are so expensive to produce/train.

 
  Again, you are just talking money. Are you implying that an Atlas pilot deserves a commission over a Locust pilot, simply due to a machine's importance on a battlefield and it's price on the market? I never saw butter bars humping expensive machine guns while I was in uniform, they usually carried pistols and were there, not to lead, but to learn how NCOs led, which OCS doesn't teach.

[idea weenie]

    Again, you are just talking money. Are you implying that an Atlas pilot deserves a commission over a Locust pilot, simply due to a machine's importance on a battlefield and it's price on the market? I never saw butter bars humping expensive machine guns while I was in uniform, they usually carried pistols and were there, not to lead, but to learn how NCOs led, which OCS doesn't teach. 

One person described the difference between an NCO and an officer is that NCOs lead people, an officer leads a unit.

So the NCO would know their people, while the officer's job is to know how that unit can work as part of a larger picture.

To me that could look like a sergeant wanting to get a training session set up for several members of the platoon, because one of the soldiers is reaching end of service, and part of the training is useful for after they get out of the army.  The officer would see an opportunity to get some useful training for the overall platoon.

Or the reverse would be an officer told to have their platoon to guard X area with platoons Y and Z on either side.  The lieutenant will tell the sergeant about where the flanking platoons are, so the initial layout the sergeant had in mind will be adjusted to communicate and coordinate with the adjacent platoons.  It may make that platoon's position a little weaker, but by coordinating with other platoons the whole defense is stronger.

Other bits of information showing the difference would be:
https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/commissioned-vs-non-commissioned-officer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LKcW4AHyfE

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

  Is OCS a given in character creation? The BT universe exhibits a huge number of Americanisms, such as officer-heavy forces, instead of a backbone of NCOs and a huge emphasis is placed on wealth in the universe.   

It is optionally available , but it is not automatically on the academy. Any characters that graduated military, paramilitary, or police school, can also choose to have OCS curriculum for spend additional 1 year.

And, yes, Battletech universe doesn't consider NCOs much, and the rank of NCO is too thin. Although there is a fluff that Federated Suns values NCO greately, but I feel that the developers are not consider for the NCOs well.
 

  Rank did nothing to prevent Market Garden or the Ploesti Raids. From personal military experience, sergeant has more of a voice than a lieutenant in a tactical environment, and officer rank does not magically bestow anybody greater intelligence or insight. Defection has only been a problem when governments had inherent problems... In American terms, more money and benefits serve to lure away military pilots from becoming civilian pilots, who may earn far more money and benefits based on ability instead of rank.
 
  Of over 800 German pilots awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, about 170 ended the war (or were killed) as enlisted or NCO rank. Yes, one fifth is a fraction yet it is a large number, considering the Luftwaffe was bleeding pilots by the end of the war yet still saw fit to keep NCO pilots.
  An award in German terms is nothing like an award in American terms. An American given its nation's highest award would be taken from the front lines and sent on bond drives and treated like a movie star (Audie Murphy actually became a movie star), while a German soldier is thanked and sent back to fight, with full expectations that they will continue to fight at the same level of bravery and skill that earned their award, which makes far more sense.
 
  Again, you are just talking money. Are you implying that an Atlas pilot deserves a commission over a Locust pilot, simply due to a machine's importance on a battlefield and it's price on the market? I never saw butter bars humping expensive machine guns while I was in uniform, they usually carried pistols and were there, not to lead, but to learn how NCOs led, which OCS doesn't teach.

Yes, sergeants do have much better voices than lieutenant, on most army, but that's just because sergeants have more experience. And that's the matter of typical frontline ground unit(infantry and armor, or subdivisions such as engineer, mechanised infantry, so on), not the air force(or navy/army's) structure. Since the time was dawn of the very concept of armed force in sky(although the idea was already initiated on WW1) on our current viewpoint, I think that give the promotion seems essential. At least they need to have NCOs rather than keep low ranked enlisted as Imperial Japanese does(as I said they didn't raise their rank at all even if their low ranked enlisted are graduate pilot school). At least, Sergeant is a NCO, not just a typical enlisted.


Perhaps, that's the reason why Battletech universe values mechwarriors much, and most of them are officers and the NCO rank is too poorly described. I just have a guess - they intended to insitute the concept of aircraft pilot of our world when making the concept of mechwarrior, and because they are still the ground force they also add a NCO rank on the first step on the line.

That will solve the reason, why they are start with sergeant(despite they are graduates an ACADEMY) but directly promotes to O1 grade officer as their next step of promotion and just treated as a full officer career unlike keep NCO rank, and ridiculously weak NCO ranks (and virtually extincted concept of Warrant officer) in Battletech universe.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Perhaps, that's the reason why Battletech universe values mechwarriors much

  The 'Mech is still considered by some the ultimate weapon in the universe, and despite the fact that there are far more pilots than 'Mechs, enough to skew the labor market to make any 'Mech pilot willing to work for food, let alone some meaningless rank, it only underscores the lack of knowledge of military life and basic economics.

I just have a guess - they intended to insitute the concept of aircraft pilot of our world when making the concept of mechwarrior, and because they are still the ground force they also add a NCO rank on the first step on the line.

  It's just another Americanism that makes BT fiction a drinking game, where every Americanism found calls for another shot. The early fiction made Kurita soldiers the kind of stock, buck-toothed, monkey-faced villains you'd see in a WW2 Hollywood flick.

That will solve the reason, why they are start with sergeant(despite they are graduates an ACADEMY) but directly promotes to O1 grade officer as their next step of promotion and just treated as a full officer career unlike keep NCO rank, and ridiculously weak NCO ranks (and virtually extincted concept of Warrant officer) in Battletech universe.

  An academy is just a school. Schools don't confer rank, political policy does. When I was in the Army, you weren't even considered a "hard-stripe" NCO without attending the equivalent of a basic NCO course (PNCOC, or "OCS lite") before earning corporal or sergeant stripes, although there were a few exceptions -I made SP5 in 3 years, despite the Reagan-Era promotion freeze, without attending PNCOC (My roomie attributed it to "good press" due to being active in the community). The vast majority of enlisted ranks were Specialists, a throwback to WW2 era Technical Sergeants, who maintained specific skills but lacked command authority but actually have authority over lower ranks, so the whole "hard stripe" issue has always been moot. Leaving an academy with the rank of corporal still can mean you can climb up the NCO ranks, all the way to Sergeant Major (and still have more street cred than a Lieutenant Colonel), still obtain the social title of knight, yet not even be considered for a commission without OCS.
  I've run enough campaigns where players take OCS, pump up their combat skills and become Min/Maxed gods of the battlefield, only to be utterly useless when sitting at a desk, which prompted me to model campaigns based on the "Archer" series, with corrupt, incompetents running rampant, with one character, Helmut von Wiener, appearing in several fanfic stories based on actual campaign plotlines: From "Rheinhardt's Corporate Raiders -First Mission"

“It figures,” the Hauptmann replied, “if it wasn’t for the Lyrans, those tea-swilling incompetents would already be speaking Japanese.” He steered his Griffin toward the barricade where the Whitworth fought, and furiously tapped at his display, “Hey Gloria, what keystrokes do I use for ‘God Mode’?”
  “Say again?”
  “How do I call up the ‘God Mode’?” he asked again, “While in the academy, one of the techs showed me, after I slipped him some cash,” explained the Hauptmann, “how do you think I aced the simulator final exam?”
    “Wait…You cheated on that exam?” Snockers was aghast, “That portion kicked my butt!”
  “I didn’t cheat,” argued von Wiener, “I made adequate use of available assets.”
  “I can’t believe it,” the Leutnant said, as she launched another volley of missiles, “and there is no such thing as ‘God Mode’ in a real battle.”
  “Liar,” accused the Hauptmann, “you just don’t want me to outshine you, as I did while we were at the academy.” He kept trying keystroke combinations, obviously without success.
  “Get your cheating, Lyran wannabe posterior over here,” the Leutenant ordered, “the Dracs are closing in!”

[Daryk]

One thing to remember is that AToW doesn't require OCS to be consecutive with any other training.  You could conceivably enlist first, and be sent to OCS meritoriously (or otherwise...).

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

One thing to remember is that AToW doesn't require OCS to be consecutive with any other training.  You could conceivably enlist first, and be sent to OCS meritoriously (or otherwise...).

  Agreed, but it underscores the fact that officer rank is not a given, no matter how many years of academy a character attends. Rank and pay are conditions of employment; When slots are hard to fill, governments have to compete with the labor market. If 'Mech pilots were a dime a dozen, IS military numbers would reflect that, and not have militaries handing out commissions like candy at a Christmas parade -dispossessed pilots would be lining up at recruiting stations just to have a shot at being assigned a 'Mech.

  To be a US Air Force pilot, completion of ROTC or OCS is required, or, graduation of the Air Force Academy, which is OCS with technical training, with a commitment to serve, so it is virtual enlistment with conditions, as with the other branch academies, but you have to be an officer BEFORE you attend flight training, and still serve your term if you fail flight training and are reassigned. No matter what, the military will figure out a way to squeeze their investment out of you. BTW, only 4% of USAF officers are pilots.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

But I don't think that graduate a military academy and got commissioned is easy as a child's play either. Actually, all the ways for the promition to the officer does. Military academy is just a most stable source of provide able fresh officers.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

But I don't think that graduate a military academy and got commissioned is easy as a child's play either.

  It shouldn't be but AToW it just means spending points and aging. It's a given, even if the fluff claims that only 1 in 3 graduates, if you choose that path, you will be that 1 in 3. Yet I see the point of AToW -You build the character you want to play.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

  It shouldn't be but AToW it just means spending points and aging. It's a given, even if the fluff claims that only 1 in 3 graduates, if you choose that path, you will be that 1 in 3. Yet I see the point of AToW -You build the character you want to play.

I think that it can be ruled as this. Because mechwarriors graduates the academy starts with sergeant, not an officer in fluff, it only ALLOWS to get the promotion easier, or it allows to get the promotion during the next step easier(named 'real life', that is the character have the real experience after graduate the study curriculums. academy is on the former step, named higher education).

So, a character with OCS curriculum on step 3, can also get the officer title when the character have any field experience on the step 4, or the character starts with sergeant despite the character already graduates OCS curriculum.

A Time of War says that, after the character creation the character's rank is fully up to what they did, and the situations. But, although 'field promotion' in a dire situation is not uncommon, in the most times I'd said that the sergeants that already have OCS curriculum would be have the priority to get commissioned over just a sergeant. Although, a sergeant rised from private deserves a try of OCS as well, if the sergeant want it.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  What about non-combat pilots? The US used quite a few of them: Flying Sergeants

https://archive.is/20120717164532/http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=31103853

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Perhaps, is it possible for the conventional aircrafts? Although become a conventional pilot is not so easy as earning a car driver's license, but it is obvious that it would be far easier than become an aerospace fighter pilot. Because military helicoptor pilots of our era are at least have Warrant Officer or Officer, it seems not that weird to allow them to start with high ranked NCO or even WO.

After all, military personnel with very specialized duty, while does not needs to become the high ranked officer, are get the title of WO, so it seems not weird that WOs are piloting some aircraft.

[Daryk]

When I build units, I cost MechWarriors as Warrants, as well as other pilots.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

It is funny that, the question was raised because I want to make a custom rank system, and set normal mechwarriors as plain NCO - I see(and want to treat) them no more than a low ranked NCO tank commander, not the prestigious de facto cadet on the field experience(I found that it was the reality on Inner Sphere, surprisingly), but I remember that generally mechwarrior and aerospace fighter pilots are treated as similar to each other.

So, while vast majority of mechwarriors are NCO, but their equivalent in air wings are start with an officer, which is not makes both of them equal.

[Daryk]

A zero-ranked officer is easy to cost.

[kato]

The only one that comes to mind is the US but this was back in WW2.

NCOs as pilots for all aircraft including combat aircraft were common in many NATO air forces and armies until about the early to mid 70s.

The switch to officers only was arguably because at this point in time early "mass-produced" first-generation jet designs were being retired and, at the same time, a pinching in budgets meant to optimize the investment financially a pilot would have to stay on longer after being trained up. Which was more the case with officers. Oh, and in some places there were complaints about unequal earnings for the same job.

During WW1, WW2 and inbetween NCOs and enlisted as pilots were rather common, and in some countries - such as Japan - no officer would ever be a pilot himself.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

A zero-ranked officer is easy to cost.

But I see no reason to make such a NCO tank commander the full officer rank. There may some tank platoon leader, that is an O-1 grade officer, but there subordinals are just the NCOs, not the same officers.

If they graduate the academy, they should start the whole career as the commissioned officer. If the NCO proves themselves, they may promoted to the higher NCO rank or lower officer rank and also become the platoon leader. But, every single tank commander is an officer seems nothing but ridiculous, that makes no sense to me.

I know, the world does, but it does not also means I want it as well.

Also, it is only makes sense to me if there is no separated line of enlisted and officer, and it is just merged to one long road that have some shortcuts reserved for the best.

Honestly, I think that the different road of enlisted and officer is ridiculous and it must be integrated to one road, same as public official ranks(that is basically start to bottom but the able people are able to start with higher echelon, or able to rise faster). So it would be better to think about that instead. Ha, it would be an another victory of ComStar within myself, for I like six unit formation already.

[DOC_Agren]

  I've run enough campaigns where players take OCS, pump up their combat skills and become Min/Maxed gods of the battlefield, only to be utterly useless when sitting at a desk, which prompted me to model campaigns based on the "Archer" series, with corrupt, incompetents running rampant, with one character, Helmut von Wiener, appearing in several fanfic stories based on actual campaign plotlines: From "Rheinhardt's Corporate Raiders -First Mission"

Yep I had those players years ago in a campaign where they were worned ahead of time that roleplaying to be done not just roll playing.
It was amusing that 1 player could not figure out why his unit with high level P/G kept getting crap contracts vrs everyone else.  No Negations skill, nor hired a NPC to handle that for him, we had some available (best was roleplayed by players GF who had no interest in BT but loved to roleplay)

But my Merc, I used to treated most mechwarriors as Warrant Officers but most lance commanders were officers.

[Daryk]

Certainly... lance commanders should be Lieutenants.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Or high ranked NCO, such as master sergeant.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Certainly... lance commanders should be Lieutenants.

  Why? Rank doesn't make anybody any smarter, skilled or talented, it just means they earn more.
  The group I GMed last, nobody wanted to be in any form of command or responsibility, so left all that up to NPCs.
  On the field, they did what they wanted to do, which was kill things, so I came up with a rank structure that made them all the pay equivalent of privates and the rank of "Employee". No uniforms, no rank insignia, they wore what they wanted to wear, some wore clown suits based on House uniforms just to show contempt for the military (all the players were veterans) and there was no saluting, no parades, no military rubbish allowed. Briefings were very general and they were pointed at the enemy...who were slaughtered, because these guys were gods and their customized 'Mechs near unbeatable.

  I had to toss them at the Clans and the unit doubled in size due to the bondsmen they took (given the rank of "Temp"), even though they lost a couple of members due to random head capping. Eventually they bit off far more than they could chew by taking a battalion against an elite Capellan regiment and wound up captured, with all their equipment taken, although six months in a Capellan prison camp didn't teach them a thing, other than the Clans were easier targets.

  Rank, especially officer rank, is a bribe to keep borderline performers from going to work for another company. The really smart ones leave and work for the money in private businesses.

[Daryk]

I suppose it depends on what the state expects from its military.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Because NCO is concentrated on micro level command, and officer is concentrated on macro level command, it is no wonder that NCO commands platoon level of force. Many nations of our era are have NCO platoon leaders.

I suspect that high ranked NCO have not much a problem to become a company commander as well. NCOs are generally not learned for the larger commands and that's the part of the reason why they are not get the higher command(and they are initially origin from experienced senior commoner soldier who assists inexperienced young aristocrat officer), but high ranked NCOs will have the experience enough to cover that.

[Giovanni Blasini]

warrant officer began as a way to commission critical personnel like blacksmiths and carpenters without running into problems like a quartermaster hijacking the division's marching band to haul bridging equipment 30 miles behind the enemy lines to help a half-strength recon company and a single tank crew steal a pile of Kuritan gold.

That's...oddly specific.

[nerd]

Looks like a reference to Kelly's Heroes.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Looks like a reference to Kelly's Heroes.

  Glaringly. KH was a dig at officers (and an anti-war film), as the whole operation was run by NCOs (although Kelly was a Lt, busted down to Sgt) and officers were portrayed as clueless incompetents.

[VhenRa]

I'll point out... the in-universe fluff on at least a couple factions has their mechwarrior corps as entirely officers.

Capellans have their mechwarriors all as officers... and have a weird rank system where an officer commanding a mech company is the same rank as an officer commanding a tank battalion.

Pre-FedCom Lyrans were also purely officer MechWarriors. [If you go through original 3025 House Book. Then you go through FM Lyran Alliance, where it specifically points out this difference.]

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

The funny thing is battlemech is just a ground combat vehicle, but the commander of non-bipeds are start with sergeant but pilot of battlemech is starting with officer. -_-;; It is not the same branch with the fighters....

If a battlemech is worth a lance(platoon) or most vehicle, that is able to compare four or six combat vehicles, then it is safe to give them the position of platoon commander - and perhaps followed officer rank. But surely it isn't, and mechwarriors are not the individuals with supernatural powers like the other fantasy settings. If the setting have the magicians and only a few are able to manifest the spell, then it is no wonder that all military mages are granted officer rank for their precious talent. But, for me the status of a battlemech pilot is no more than a tank commander. Some individuals are rise through the rank for their talent and luck, but not because their branch is battlemech pilot.

At first, I think that their branch of service is same as the combat vehicles - both of them are armored branch anyways.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

At first, I think that their branch of service is same as the combat vehicles - both of them are armored branch anyways.

  The entire BTU revolves around the battlemech and in the now mythical "Mad Max" era, where battlemechs were considered rare, a lance of 'Mechs could conquer a planet. Updated combat rules pretty much killed that myth. Using the updated rules, the Clan invasion would have been stopped at the first planets, as infantry with rudimentary (20th Century level) equipment is no longer the cannon fodder of earlier rules. If a 'Mech is close enough to use its machineguns, the infantry is close enough to fire back. I've played out scenarios with 'Mechs facing infantry in the open and while dozens of soldiers die, the 'Mechs get nickled and dimed to death. I've even played out standing out of small arms range and while it is feasible, who wants to play out over a hundred turns to eliminate a company of infantry? During that time, the infantry could have dug in and become impossible to kill.
 
  Given the above scenario, what does the Mechjocky do? He calls in the infantry, vehicles and artillery that his machine was supposed to replace, as a sledgehammer makes a poor flyswatter. Given equal ranks, a Mechwarrior will outrank a tank or infantry commander, even though that Mechwarrior has no clue about how either forces are used. Hence the fallacy of rank -Rank does not reflect ability or even competency. In campaign, I have released officers I've taken prisoner because they would cause more harm to their side than mine...
   

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Perhaps the reason for this is the money(and technology) then. The cost of a fusion engine is not a joke and it is not easy to get either, with the same fusion engine it is generally better to run a biped machine for its multiterrain ability, and biped machines are harder to make than the combat vehicle(especially for tried and true tracked and wheeled). With these facts, it is no wonder that such a myth was borne.

Also, don't underestimate the junior officers. While they lacks experience, but they actually taught the art of war quite well. All they lacks is the experience, and you have given it to them already.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Also, don't underestimate the junior officers.

  I was a US Army sergeant. I had no faith in ANY officers, especially the generals. It was Moxley Sorrel, a Confederate staff officer under Lee who said "A general is paid 301 dollars a month, 300 to make him feel good and one dollar for what he actually does."

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

But, no sergeant have a meaning without an officer. War is more than the micro management. It is also true that no officer can do their duty without a sergeant, though. Both of them are in complimentary, rather than competing. A lone head and a lone hand have no point; they are only meaningful it they works together as a whole.

I see your experience is the reason for this, but if the reality is like that then why they aren't run all the military by sergeants, without any officer? Yes military is the ultraconservative organization, but it works at least.

And you should remember that there are some officers rise from enlisted(NCO included). Are they simply turned to jerks, as the officers what have you seen? I don't think so.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

But, no sergeant have a meaning without an officer. War is more than the micro management. It is also true that no officer can do their duty without a sergeant, though. Both of them are in complimentary, rather than competing. A lone head and a lone hand have no point; they are only meaningful it they works together as a whole.

I see your experience is the reason for this, but if the reality is like that then why they aren't run all the military by sergeants, without any officer? Yes military is the ultraconservative organization, but it works at least.

  The Soviet military had no ranks at all between 1917 and 1935 but had only job descriptions, like "Machine gunner" or "Infantry" those in leadership positions would have "Kom" (for kommander) as a prefix, such as "Komdiv" for a divisional commander or "komvzvoda" for platoon commander. As soldiers, they were all equal in rank. In 1935 the Soviets slowly introduced ranks among its military and it was confusing for a while as soldiers could have both a technical title and a military rank. It was mostly ironed out by 1940, with senior officer ranks finalized by 1942 and rank insignia redesigned by 1943.

  So, it is entirely possible for a national military to forego the use of a rank system and just assign duties. I've read plenty of literature from the Russian Revolution and from the armies that fought them, about the Bolshevik Red Army and how it operated.
   In an imaginary universe, just about anything can work, even a military without ranks.
   

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I do think that it is better to change it by the same structure of civil officials - they are either start with the bottom, or able to start from the higher ranks with some tests. Although the current enlisted-officer structure have the similar ways, but its core is the remnant of old ways that the concept of commoner and aristocrat was a reality.

But it does not means we should disregard officers just because they are the officer, whaever how skilled and talented they are. It is no less than disregard the enlisted for their lack or requirement of become the officer(or at least don't require that to enter the armed force), but we already know that it is nonsense, isn't?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  BT character construction has it wrong, if the assumption is that all pilots (mech and aero) are officers. A cadet would go through OCS first, which includes a commitment to serve X number of years, then on to whatever technical school. IF there is a chance of failure (there really isn't, as you spend points for what you want to play) there are dozens of other fields to which a washout may be assigned. Since the option of skipping OCS and just being a NCO is there, how many would rather go straight to serving out their enlistment and get to the gaming part? Short answer: In my campaigns, everybody.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

You should remember that, most nations have the military academy that give the commissions for the graduate. And while they lacks the experience, they have enough knowledge to run the armed force, that is not required for the enlisted(that is expected to take care of themselves to smaller unit).

Actually the way how make an officer in Battletech universe is already suit for your taste; even if they graduate the academy, they starts with sergeant, NOT O-1 grade officer as our worlds does, and they have to prove themselves on field in order to actually get the commission and begin the life of the officer.

Since officers in our worlds often requires bachelor's degree(other than field promotion of dire needs), and some nations at least grants specialist for the person with bachelor's degree when they join the armed force, so it is nothing wrong to give them the sergeant by default. A full four years is enough to earn the rank of sergeant when they choose to join the armed forces starting to private. Not all will does, sure, but someone with enough talent will does, and it is no wonder that such valuable individuals are enter the arcademy and not getting dropped. And it is a waste of time to put such person(that surely complete the advanced course for the soldier) bottom of the line; they should take the position much better than the privates. Also, despite of their lack of experience, they must able to deal with their 'subordinals' or they don't have enough right to be called for a good officer either.

The roman empire was the good example of this. Their elected commander that commands the unit that is similar to our battalion level, was usually the startline of the career of the young noblebirth without real experience for the battle. But, despite of their lack of experience, since no soldiers are want to die in vain under the incompetent commander they only vote for the most able candidates as their own commander. So those young nobles are have to study very hard for the art of war, and distinguish themselves to be actually elected. And, despite of their no real experience, centurions are able to make the gap.

Also the important factor is armor branch. A tank commander is a sergeant. A battlemech is a biped tank. And... is it possible to rise from the rank of private, while keep up the title or battlemech pilot(and individual battlemech commander)? Imperial Japanese in WWII already proves that using private or specialist pilot results catastrophic failure. Even for the tanks, if all the tank commander in a platoon is at least sergeant but one have the rank of private, it is something gone horribly wrong.