How is common to killing a family line in Inner Sphere?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

You know, the involvement system is not unheard but not an open practice either. And killing the family line is rather common in Clans(only on the very exceptional situation, though) but apparently not in Inner Sphere. However is it actually happens in Inner Sphere, other than Cameron massacre in Amaris Civil War?

I heard that a mass killing of the noble family line was occured in MechWarrior 4 and the protagonists are want to avenge the crime, but is the same thing sometimes actually happens, or it only shows how wicked Katherine Steiner-Davion and her vile servants are?

[Weirdo]

It probably happens all the time, we just don't normally hear about it. The major houses that the storylines revolve around are so numerous and widespread that killing off every member is a very labor-intensive and impractical undertaking. Hell, the Confederation likely has an entire small bureaucracy solely dedicated to keeping track of everyone with a Liao name and what they're up to.

The minor houses where it might be feasible? Probably happens all the time, they're just not important enough to rate mentions in sourcebooks.

[Mecha82]

I do think that killing off family that ruled planet you invaded makes sense as they are most likely loyal to opposing major House and might lead resistance against your forces like was case with events of MW4. How ever like Weirdo said those are not very important in grand scheme of things so we don't hear about them. 

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Oh, that's bad. I thought that the system is more like the western europe than the chinese culture(china and nearby nations but you know china is so big enough to borders with so many nations), that many aristocrats are intermarry with each other so 'killing a family line' is rarely happens, and also kills all the nearby lineage is not common either.

In chinese culture, you know, against high treason killing all the family member - the couple and the offsprings - was a must, and if they follow the law strictly they also kill the family of the husband's father and mother, as well as killing the family of the wife. Although some nations spares female members and kids, for women are considered inferior to men and and are weak in the old days so killing the 'weak' was too uneasy.

I remember that many dynasty in china was follow the law strictly, although many dynasty among them are not kill the women and kids as well. And the nearby nations are not willing to gone so far and only kill the family of the traitor in the most tiles, feels fully executing this and kill too much people is too cruel and just stop after eliminate the traitor's own family. Although almost no treason have only one participant.

Although, in Battletech universe, killing the family member will reduces possible heir to the couquered world, and perhaps the reason of the massacre in Mechwarrior 4 have such intention. No one will doubt that it is an awful crime, after all. And that's why I was wonder about that. It is a serious crime but it was actually happened, so I wonder that sometimes greater nations are try to seize the local lands by killing all the possible heir to the land.

[Templar87]

Although, in Battletech universe, killing the family member will reduces possible heir to the couquered world, and perhaps the reason of the massacre in Mechwarrior 4 have such intention. No one will doubt that it is an awful crime, after all. And that's why I was wonder about that. It is a serious crime but it was actually happened, so I wonder that sometimes greater nations are try to seize the local lands by killing all the possible heir to the land.

Well, with Kentares IV, it's Katherine once again being a complete idiot when it comes to PR (since with the history of Kentares, as Kmdt. Evanda Castro points out in the game proper, mass murder is the stupidest possible way to try and cow the population) and demanding the massacre of the mainline Dresaris in order to install someone more willing to toady up to her.


I honestly don't think she thought about those orders any more than that.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

That's why she wage war and lost, isn't? She have the desire for the throne, and able to cause the dispute, but lacks the ability to seize, hold and govern.

And, seriously, in Kentares IV? A place of infamous Kentares Massacre?

[Weirdo]

Oh, these houses intermarry, certainly. My main point was that there's a big difference between killing off a few hundred minor nobles (especially if most of them are probably on one planet, so you can land a DropShip on one family reunion, and then take your time sending assassins after the rest), and trying to take out any of the possibly tens of thousands of people bearing a Davion name, if not more.

The former task is certainly a nontrivial undertaking, but still not major enough to actually show up in a sourcebook.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yeah it is unlikely to killing a bunch of noble family lines. Many will say "just why?" as well.

[Weirdo]

Indeed. Normally you'd just take out the ones who possess what you want, those who could inherit what you want, and maybe those likely to take revenge once you have it. Killing EVERYONE speaks to a serious grudge, as well as enough mental damage that even if a higher lord took a blind eye to your shenanigans, they'd have an interest in removing you from power before you utterly ruin whatever resources you just took control of.

[Templar87]

That's why she wage war and lost, isn't? She have the desire for the throne, and able to cause the dispute, but lacks the ability to seize, hold and govern.

And, seriously, in Kentares IV? A place of infamous Kentares Massacre?

Yup. And the goon she put in charge of the occupation decides to carry that on; Evanda Castro gives him both barrels for it when he decides (against her advice) to carpet-bomb a town to try and intimidate the resistance;

"Kulin starts executing military prisoners, and now you're playing at genocide?! Are you insane? Do you know anything about the history of this planet?! You won't stop rebellion this way, you're going to spread it, not just on Kentares but beyond! I refuse to be a party to this madness!"

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Sigh. A wicked mind will cause the problem, but sometimes stupidity cause even worse problem. And they have both.

[Mecha82]

Sadly Kat and her goons were written as nothing but 1 dimensional pure evil in order to just make them opposition for VSD and his loyalists. Way she and her goons were written is IMO one of worst parts of BT lore which is shame because we know that BT writers can do so much better than that and have done better than that. Funny enough in MW4: Black Knights MC of MW4: Vengeance switched sides to Kat's side and wasn't that loyal to VSD after all but I doubt that's canon. 

[Colt Ward]

So . . . its happened, and in Shattered Fortress we seem to be seeing some more of it . . .

Gunrei Toranga killed off MOST of Takashi/Theodore's line- he got Hohiro through Vincent and descendents; he got Minorou through the Nova Cats (except maybe Kishio- but he is likely star dust) . . . the only one of Theodore's children to still be alive is Kitsune, who is part of the Republic . . . and I am not sure ever reproduced?  By the time of Shattered Fortress he should be around 90.  But its the most recent example of a family purge.

But we get another few names- Aramis, Varnay, and a few more.

Typically, due to the Sheeple Principle of BT, a invader does not wipe out the governmental infrastructure- be it nobility or some other model.  Arrangements are usually made so they keep some power & position and do not form a resistance- we get numerous examples of this with BC stories and in 1SW & 2 SW books.  But . . . some of that seems to be changing from a few powers- Daoshen killed Amanda Hasek and seems to be intent on executing captured Republic officials . . . or just troops.  The Dracs have done much of that sort of thing too.

[Mecha82]

I would like to hear FedSuns doing it as well considering that they have been treated too long as good guys of BTU. Then again writeres tend to be Davion fanboys so there might not be hope for that.

[Colt Ward]

I would like to hear FedSuns doing it as well considering that they have been treated too long as good guys of BTU. Then again writeres tend to be Davion fanboys so there might not be hope for that.

 . . . TPTB have been behind the CapCon for the last 20+ IRL years, but hold that meme tight.

I already mentioned the Varnays.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

I heard that a mass killing of the noble family line was occured in MechWarrior 4 and the protagonists are want to avenge the crime, but is the same thing sometimes actually happens, or it only shows how wicked Katherine Steiner-Davion and her vile servants are?

  It doesn't really happen, or the Houses would be changing dynasties once in a while. The main failure of the Houses is the lack of OOP (Order of Precedence), which every royal line currently maintains in RL. Civil governments also maintain an order of precedence which establishes administrative rank in times of emergency, where higher-ranking politicians are removed or impaired by circumstance.
UK Order of Precedence: https://www.edwardianpromenade.com/resources/titles-and-orders-of-precedence/
  For the role of Sovereign, there is also an established Line of Succession, both in nobility and in civil governments, which the BTU ignores in favor of conflict over established ranking.

  On a smaller scale, rivalries for power always happens and if one faction is willing to cross that line, an "accident" that removes the bloodline of another faction is always a possibility, which in RP is usually the aim of a noble player's rival.
 

[Minemech]

But . . . some of that seems to be changing from a few powers- Daoshen killed Amanda Hasek and seems to be intent on executing captured Republic officials . . . or just troops.  The Dracs have done much of that sort of thing too.

That may have more to do with the fact that a foreign power ran those planets far more competently than either the Confederation, or the Combine would be able to. This was despite open espionage.

 A Liao killing a Hasek is far from unprecedented. Michael Davion was a Hasek.

[Colt Ward]

*snip*
  For the role of Sovereign, there is also an established Line of Succession, both in nobility and in civil governments, which the BTU ignores in favor of conflict over established ranking.
*snip*

heck, we cannot even get the rulers carrying out their primary duty in the 3140s- a time of turmoil!  Heir & a spare!  The only one that did so was Jessica Halas-Hughes-Marik with 5 children, and even then she was semi-failure b/c she only had one daughter (Elise) having a child though she was not Jessica's designated replacement.  Once she reformed the League she should have been arranging Nikol's marriage and spiking her drinks with fertility drugs.  Harrison kept his selection of Julian a secret and his intel chief disappeared.  Heck, Harrison's intention to make JulianMelissa seemed to behave like Queen Bess, surprising Trillian by making her the successor- who does not have a consort or children after 8 years.  She is trying to unify the realm?  Well getting married and knocked up give you two events to work PR magic along with the ability to cement ties.  I will leave the immoral mess of the CapCon alone . . . the God-King thing just turns things on its head.

The ONLY House Lord who was SMART about an heir was Yori- and its not spelled out as a plan as part of the Drac court politics, its a accident of BTU writing since all the Lords forget the first rule of monarchies.  But it ALSO makes the Kanrei dimmer than his coup supposes.  While he had the power, he should have force Yori to marry (say a son or nephew . . . ) and be spiking her drinks with fertility drugs!  She gets preggers, pops the kid, gets attached . . . and then 3 years or so later the Kanrei takes a hostage/insurance policy.  Do what he says or child takes a spacewalk . . . get too far out of line- your expendable since I hold the heir and will be regent.

The Drac court situation SHOULD be one of the most historically easy to model, since succession politics with heirs & in-laws along with regents fills history pages.  Just think of the English two 'lost' princes . . . actually, it seems to have happened a lot to the Norman line of kings.  But where we have such fertile soil for dynastic maneuvering in the Drac court, it just gets bypassed.

We also with the Dark Ages get 'branch' switches, which is more historically reflected . . . so Hanse's line through Yvonne is done in the FedSuns with Caleb's death (but considering his behaviors, we should have plenty of illegit SDs running around), but the Steiner-Davion line in the Lyran state took back the throne from whoever Melissa came from.  With Trillian supported by Roderick, who IIRC is Adam's descendant . . . guess Roderick 'Frost' is Trillian's heir.

Of course, the League is a story on its own.

A Liao killing a Hasek is far from unprecedented. Michael Davion was a Hasek.

Mikey betrayed Max . . . Amanda defeated/embarassed Daoshen and was never part of the conspiracy.  The Capellans have been executing FedSuns and Republic nobles/officials they capture- she is just the most noteworthy.  What is Capellan for gulag?

[Templar87]

I would like to hear FedSuns doing it as well

Actually, I agree. The Combine and Capellans have made it clear - they don't believe they have to play by the Inner Sphere's agreed upon rules of warfare. Fine, that's their choice; but it means big boy rules/Consequences time for them, so no more quarter for the CCAF or DCMS.


(even beyond the fact that I feel it's asking more than flesh and blood can give to ask (for example) a March Militia officer whose family have been murdered/enslaved/otherwise horribly ill-treated by the Dracs or Cappies to extend them anything of mercy beyond a quick death)

[Minemech]

 The League's fallback model is primogeniture, but it prefers to have the family select their best choice. The previous Captain-General's choice may constitute the family's vote at times.

[Natasha Kerensky]

The von Rohrs family ruled the Draconis Combine for about a century after Nihongi von Rohrs (whose mother was a Kurita and whose father was a stablehand) usurped the throne.  The family was executed in Novmber 2510 by a descendent of Shiro Kurita.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_von_Rohrs

The Selaj family ruled the Principality of Regulus and even held the Captain-Generalcy of the Free Worlds League when it used to rotate.  They were laster associated with and disgraced by the Scourge of Death terrorist movement, removed from power, and replaced by the Cameron-Jones family as rulers of Regulus.  Gerald Marik’s campaign against the Principality caused one Selaj prince to commit suicide and the other two fled with family to the Magistracy of Canopus.

I believe it is left unclear whether the Selaj family in the Magistracy disappeared or whether Gerald had them hunted down and that this uncertainty is the source of the Scourge of Death entry in Interstellar Players.  Someone closer to League history might clarify.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Selaj

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gerald_Marik_(27th_c.)#The_pursuit_of_Scourge_of_Death

[Minemech]

Mikey betrayed Max . . . Amanda defeated/embarassed Daoshen and was never part of the conspiracy.  The Capellans have been executing FedSuns and Republic nobles/officials they capture- she is just the most noteworthy.  What is Capellan for gulag?

Michael was a classic case of a lessor lord thinking that they were the real king, and paying for it. Maximilian knew what he was dealing with from the beginning. Michael technically did not betray Maximilian as much as act in the interests of his dukedom. He simply did not realize that he was the dependent.

[Mecha82]

Actually, I agree. The Combine and Capellans have made it clear - they don't believe they have to play by the Inner Sphere's agreed upon rules of warfare. Fine, that's their choice; but it means big boy rules/Consequences time for them, so no more quarter for the CCAF or DCMS.

And you missed my point. At least if Davion fans is believing only Cappies and Dracs do things like that while Feddie hands are some how clean. I don't believe even a second that Feddies would not treat Cappie and Drac nobles that they capture same way. Same goes to League and Republic. I don't buy it.

[Minemech]

The Selaj family ruled the Principality of Regulus and even held the Captain-Generalcy of the Free Worlds League when it used to rotate.  They were laster associated with and disgraced by the Scourge of Death terrorist movement, removed from power, and replaced by the Cameron-Jones family as rulers of Regulus.  Gerald Marik’s campaign against the Principality caused one Selaj prince to commit suicide and the other two fled with family to the Magistracy of Canopus.

I believe it is left unclear whether the Selaj family in the Magistracy disappeared or whether Gerald had them hunted down and that this uncertainty is the source of the Scourge of Death entry in Interstellar Players.  Someone closer to League history might clarify.

According to the Handbook, those two princes, and their families, moved to the Magistracy, where SAFE would harass them. In all likelihood, many Selaj branches persisted in the Principality, simply because they were not of the main line. Associates of the main line were oft arrested, or executed, but not all of them. That only three princes were openly targeted from what was likely a massive family is surprising in and of itself. Methinks relatives had strong ties with SAFE.

 That said, SAFE was technically ordered to execute any Selaj family member it encountered. If this seems to conflict with my previous statement, keep in mind that the SAFE order was classified, and revealed later.

[Colt Ward]

And you missed my point. At least if Davion fans is believing only Cappies and Dracs do things like that while Feddie hands are some how clean. I don't believe even a second that Feddies would not treat Cappie and Drac nobles that they capture same way. Same goes to League and Republic. I don't buy it.

You can believe whatever you want, but it has no basis in IRL history (where tropes are harvested) or in BTU.  It is a cultural difference . . . while the Cappies (God-King/Divine Emperor) & Dracs (bushido) are wiping out surrendering Republic forces in Shattered Fortress the Republic & FedSuns are giving quarter in most cases.  The Wolves do it on ocassion, the Falcons for most occasions, League is fighting 'relatives' mostly and then hammering the Hegemony, and the Lyrans . . . well, they would have to win to have prisoners to mistreat but they have not done that historically.

Its not to say a war crime would not happen, just that outside of the Falcons, Dracs and Cappies (in order btw) its the exception rather than the rule.  Btw, the proper response to the Dracs & Cappies by the FedSuns & Republic would involve the act of reprisal

[Mecha82]

You can believe whatever you want, but it has no basis in IRL history (where tropes are harvested) or in BTU.  It is a cultural difference . . . while the Cappies (God-King/Divine Emperor) & Dracs (bushido) are wiping out surrendering Republic forces in Shattered Fortress the Republic & FedSuns are giving quarter in most cases.  The Wolves do it on ocassion, the Falcons for most occasions, League is fighting 'relatives' mostly and then hammering the Hegemony, and the Lyrans . . . well, they would have to win to have prisoners to mistreat but they have not done that historically.

Its not to say a war crime would not happen, just that outside of the Falcons, Dracs and Cappies (in order btw) its the exception rather than the rule.  Btw, the proper response to the Dracs & Cappies by the FedSuns & Republic would involve the act of reprisal

Then you deluded if you think that anglo-saxons that Feddies are based didn't do similar things IRL history because they did as did other Europeans. Including beginning of USA. So really you are just blaming other cultures from something that was common IRL history from everyone. So it's logical to assume that in BTU Feddies would do that as well because they are not pure and better than everyone else.

[Colt Ward]

No, I will quite admit the Saxons taking post-Roman Brittain were horrible for what we would consider war crimes- but its not the cultural seed that is used for the FS.  AFAIK, the British Empire did not go out of their way or have as common practice any effort to commit atrocities like killing off prisoners.  Japan's bushido culture until 1945 did kill/use prisoners.  Killing surrendered prisoners is also justified in specific circumstances- and surrendering is not a right . . . it is a complicated issue.

You also cannot point out, besides your expectations, where it is said in canon that the Fed Suns, Lyrans, League, or Republic practiced what would be considered war crimes as common policy because they have a different cultural background.  I also never said they were pure or better- just that they did not kill prisoners.  I also pointed out the Falcons killed civilians a lot along with prisoners, and the Wolves on occasion refused surrenders.  Unless I overlooked it, Shattered Fortress which covers 5 years of the FedSuns trying to push back on the Dracs and Cappies, did not list a single atrocity committed by the AFFS when retaking a world from the Dracs or Cappies.

If you want questionable actions, Trillian Steiner sent the ELH (b/c OOC reasons) to die on Hesperus.  She gave them the smelly end of the stick which can be seen as questionable, but that is what they are paid to do . . . and going against a nut like Malvina the mercs know surrendering is not a option.  BUT the action has boomeranged on Trillian . . . yes, she kept Defiance in her grasp but what happened to the Eridani spread and drove up the cost of the Lyrans hiring any mercs.

Julian has some of the same problems- the perception among mercs is that he is using them as bullet sponges (duh and/or hello!) and thus they have not been as likely to hire on.  The accusations against him are more vague and I think contributed to by being perceived as the 'losing' side.

[Natasha Kerensky]

That said, SAFE was technically ordered to execute any Selaj family member it encountered. If this seems to conflict with my previous statement, keep in mind that the SAFE order was classified, and revealed later.

Thx for chiming in, MM.  The Selaj family/Scourge of Death are nice, little, dangling thread of a mystery for future stories.

[Orwell84]

No, I will quite admit the Saxons taking post-Roman Brittain were horrible for what we would consider war crimes- but its not the cultural seed that is used for the FS.  AFAIK, the British Empire did not go out of their way or have as common practice any effort to commit atrocities like killing off prisoners.  Japan's bushido culture until 1945 did kill/use prisoners.  Killing surrendered prisoners is also justified in specific circumstances- and surrendering is not a right . . . it is a complicated issue.

You also cannot point out, besides your expectations, where it is said in canon that the Fed Suns, Lyrans, League, or Republic practiced what would be considered war crimes as common policy because they have a different cultural background.  I also never said they were pure or better- just that they did not kill prisoners.  I also pointed out the Falcons killed civilians a lot along with prisoners, and the Wolves on occasion refused surrenders.  Unless I overlooked it, Shattered Fortress which covers 5 years of the FedSuns trying to push back on the Dracs and Cappies, did not list a single atrocity committed by the AFFS when retaking a world from the Dracs or Cappies.

+1

Britain's hands - and those of Spain, France, and other ancestors of the LC, FS and FWL - have been far from clean historically, but they still drew an official line at certain barbarities which the Aztecs, Imperial Japan and other opponents practiced. Since I've already risked breaching Rule 4, I'll stop at this point.

As to the BattleTech factions, the Second Succession War sourcebook (p 42-43) specifically notes that the Combine and Capellans were more brutal than the other three Houses towards prisoners. As well as simply killing them outright - something Bushido-nutters in the DCMS were known for - they would also use captives as slave labour with little hope of release. In contrast, the Lyrans and FWL put prisoners to work in jobs suited to their skillsets and often allowed them to make new lives for themselves.

Any of the above might have changed in the 300-odd years since the Second War ended, but if there's any canon info saying so I'm not aware of it.

[Templar87]

You can believe whatever you want, but it has no basis in IRL history (where tropes are harvested) or in BTU.  It is a cultural difference . . . while the Cappies (God-King/Divine Emperor) & Dracs (bushido) are wiping out surrendering Republic forces in Shattered Fortress the Republic & FedSuns are giving quarter in most cases.  The Wolves do it on ocassion, the Falcons for most occasions, League is fighting 'relatives' mostly and then hammering the Hegemony, and the Lyrans . . . well, they would have to win to have prisoners to mistreat but they have not done that historically.

Its not to say a war crime would not happen, just that outside of the Falcons, Dracs and Cappies (in order btw) its the exception rather than the rule.  Btw, the proper response to the Dracs & Cappies by the FedSuns & Republic would involve the act of reprisal

Indeed, the one time I can think of offhand that FedSuns-aligned unit did something like the Dark Age-era Combine/Capellan/Jade Falcon standard practice - the merccenary 1st Screaming Eagles on New Canton during 4SW, where they welded a group of surrendered Capellan mechwarriors into their (disabled) 'Mechs' cockpits and threw them into a river - when the nearest AFFS unit found out they'd done that, they immediately put guns on the Eagles (this being an infantry unit, mind - the 7th Almach Foot - facing off against BattleMechs) and demanded they surrender and their commander submit to arrest. The Eagles were subsequently thrown out of House Davion's service, although for a while they were employed by the FedCom as a whole.

[Frabby]

Aldo Lestrade was famously the last of his line, as his illegitimate son who killed him (Clovis Holstein) wanted nothing to do with the heritage.

Similarly, Michael Hasek-Davion's associate Duke Vitios had his family killed by the Capellans, and implicitly was the last of his line now with no heirs.

[Dahmin_Toran]

You would think that after centuries of rule there should be hundreds of potential heirs, especially in the Successor Houses.

[Colt Ward]

You would think that after centuries of rule there should be hundreds of potential heirs, especially in the Successor Houses.

Well, you would also have people who did like Victor and abdicate any claims for themselves & descendants . . .

Put it this way . . . ever see King Ralph?  You can dig up distant descendants if you want who might have a better claim, but those in power have no incentive to do so usually since you can usually find a patsy who can be controlled that is close at hand.  If you were the minister who is transitioning the government and your future is tied up in who takes the throne, do you go with the alcoholic 6th generation descendant who has been at court and you covered up several indiscretions . . . or are you going to select the 3rd generation descendant whose father rejected the court to go settle on a frontier planet and build a trading empire- and the only contact you ever had was making sure he got the Royal Christmas Card and never cashed her monthly Royal stipend?

Look in history at all the 'Pretenders' who may have had a better claim yet someone else with a more dubious claim took the throne b/c they had the connections or control of the military or administrative powers of the government.


(Someone needs to convert that to a Lyran or Davion character image!  Hogarth?)

[Elmoth]

Now I am using king Ralph in fan fiction

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Because most noble family lines are only counts the recent branch from the current/late title holder, usually long descendant through more than four to sixth generations before doesn't have much meaning for count the same family member. You know, even the second cousins are not have much genetic similarity with each other, although second cousins are slightly similar than the other people without any genetic relationship.

It only have a meaning if there is no other possible successor, then they have to set the standards lower than they normally would, and if still there is no one after then they have to set the standards lower than... so on. Also, as you know, many noble family are marry with each others, it is not so difficult to found out the close descendants.

[R.Tempest]

 IIRC in the early part of Heir to the Dragon Takashi decrees the death of an entire noble family line on Rasalhague after an assassination attempt. This was viewed as a reasonable response to a conspiracy to kill the Coordinator.
 For the most part though, for the major houses, there must be so many cadet branches that it would be nearly impossible to get them all.