Why didn't Clan tech spread in the Combine more quickly?

[Trailblazer]

You would think that with Clan Nova Cat formally merging with the Combine, they would quickly carry out technological and scientific exchange that would bring the DC up to a Clan level of technology faster than the other Successor States.  Invite the Nova Cat scientist caste to work with Combine manufacturers, exchange programs to get some Clan-trained techs working for DCMS units, mass-produce Clan tech weapon pods for use on LAW-produced IS omnis... there's a lot they could have done, and seem not to have done.

Why weren't these steps taken when the benefits were so obvious?  (Game balance, of course, but I'm interested in plausible in-universe explanations.)

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Teddy was careful to spread it only to manufacturers that he could trust not to divert production to the Black Dragons.

[Sartris]

as I’ve said before

LAW is the industrial analogue of SAFE

Really the whole of the IS should be prototyping clan facsimiles by 3065-3070 like with the helm core tech thirty years before. TRO Prototypes should have been the first wave of production-scale mixed tech designs.

At least the dracs figured out clan LRMs by the 3140s

[Major Headcase]

Because  the game designers wanted it that way... there us no plausible reason in-universe.
 Clan tech isn't alien tech made of elements we haven't discovered yet for Pete's sake. The inner sphere, on full blown war for survival footing, would have reverse engendered every scrap of Clan salvage ASAP and had every factory available retool to make it. The IS core forces should have been technologically on par with the 3050s Clan tech by 3060.
But then the Clans wouldn't be "special" anymore, so...

[Sartris]

I mean yeah obviously or canon would be different

My main gripe is that the largesse in spreading clantech around spawned the 4000 garbo sidegrade weapons 

[grimlock1]

Because  the game designers wanted it that way... there us no plausible reason in-universe.
 Clan tech isn't alien tech made of elements we haven't discovered yet for Pete's sake. The inner sphere, on full blown war for survival footing, would have reverse engendered every scrap of Clan salvage ASAP and had every factory available retool to make it. The IS core forces should have been technologically on par with the 3050s Clan tech by 3060.
But then the Clans wouldn't be "special" anymore, so...

I disagree. If you handed took the entire technical data package for Intel's latest chip, hopped in a time machine and gave it to AMD of 20 years ago, they would be a couple years before they could get it into production.  It's not a matter of making a Clan spec medium laser.  It's a matter of making the tools to make the tools to make that Clan spec laser.   Phalen described the workshops on the Dire Wolf as being far superior to anything he encountered in the Sphere.
Not only is it a matter of the tools to make the tools, working with new materials means a learning curve.    Clan Endo and FF are more compact, suggesting greater density and strength.  How do you drill a hole in that stuff now?  There are a thousand little lessons like this that only come with experience, as you tool up for full rate production.

And as the British experienced in WWII, stopping production lines mid-war is not a good idea.  I believe it was the 6-pounder gun was approved and adopted but the demand for new tanks was so great that they couldn't afford to stop production of 2-pounders for the 3-4 weeks it would take to retool. 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. If you handed took the entire technical data package for Intel's latest chip, hopped in a time machine and gave it to AMD of 20 years ago, they would be a couple years before they could get it into production.  It's not a matter of making a Clan spec medium laser.  It's a matter of making the tools to make the tools to make that Clan spec laser.   Phalen described the workshops on the Dire Wolf as being far superior to anything he encountered in the Sphere.
Not only is it a matter of the tools to make the tools, working with new materials means a learning curve.    Clan Endo and FF are more compact, suggesting greater density and strength.  How do you drill a hole in that stuff now?  There are a thousand little lessons like this that only come with experience, as you tool up for full rate production.

And as the British experienced in WWII, stopping production lines mid-war is not a good idea.  I believe it was the 6-pounder gun was approved and adopted but the demand for new tanks was so great that they couldn't afford to stop production of 2-pounders for the 3-4 weeks it would take to retool.

I think this is all fine; plausible enough that it works for a sci fi game universe anyway.  What makes less sense is the application of this explanation to the Combine specifically.  A whole district of the DC had already been brought up to Clan industrial standards by the time the Jags were beaten and the Cats merged with the DC.  And the Cats were producing plenty of their own Clan-tech hardware.  Why not find a way to expand that production a bit and divert the supply more broadly across the DC?

[dgorsman]

Neither the Cats nor the Combine fully trusted the other.  LAW tried several times to get such cooperation but the Cats were worried about being turned into a labor caste, solely producing weapons.  They tried to get a little more freedom in governance, but were stymied by the more conservative elements in Combine society (to say nothing of the Black Dragons).

[Maelwys]

Its even worse than you think. In the third recognition Guide, it states, "Our [Sea Fox] Clan helps the Combine produce and maintain all ClanTech equipment and designs, for the usual fees and access to production runs."

So even after all this time, its possible the Combine still can't produce its own Clantech without Clan help.

Which is kind of nonsense, IMO.

[Trailblazer]

Neither the Cats nor the Combine fully trusted the other.  LAW tried several times to get such cooperation but the Cats were worried about being turned into a labor caste, solely producing weapons.  They tried to get a little more freedom in governance, but were stymied by the more conservative elements in Combine society (to say nothing of the Black Dragons).

Now this sounds pretty plausible!  Source?

[mjog]

I agree it's both consistent with the game universe and IRL that Inner Sphere powers were not able to trivially reverse-engineer Clan tech.

In game, the Houses weren't able to reverse-engineer the remaining examples of Star League equipment they had until the Helm memory core came along with the blueprints for manufacturing. Same thing with Clan tech - just because they captured examples of it, that doesn't mean they'd be able to duplicate it.

IRL, just because you have some sample of advanced tech doesn't mean you can duplicate it unless your tech levels are equivalently advanced. China can clone western semiconductors because they already have the tech to make them - do so is basically outsourcing the design work to Western companies. If someone handed you a sample of vantablack, doesn't mean you could make more unless you had sufficient tech to analyse it and reproduce the fabrication method - and those two are usually related.

[Hawkeye Jim]

The idea that you can't make better stuff until you know how to make the tools to make the stuff has parallels in history. The English learned how can food in cans early in the 19th Century, but all the cans had to be made by hand. Canned food didn't become practical until someone invented a can making machine. And a can opener.

[Sartris]

meh. Mainstreaming clantech instead of all the TacOps junk in the dark age makes the actual game better. I’m willing to sacrifice substantial historical realism to that end

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Because  the game designers wanted it that way... there us no plausible reason in-universe.
 Clan tech isn't alien tech made of elements we haven't discovered yet for Pete's sake. The inner sphere, on full blown war for survival footing, would have reverse engendered every scrap of Clan salvage ASAP and had every factory available retool to make it. The IS core forces should have been technologically on par with the 3050s Clan tech by 3060.
But then the Clans wouldn't be "special" anymore, so...

  I totally agree. SL tech was a step ahead of 3025 and a step behind Clan tech. It didn't take long for the IS to master SL tech once scientists were no longer "committing suicide" and teams were obtaining plans and samples and open the tech floodgates.
 
  How did the rest of the world obtain nuclear weapons? Countries, even allies, spied on each other and had no qualms about infiltrating other governments to gain their secrets.

  Did the TH just hand out plans for battlemechs?

[RifleMech]

I don't mind that the IS hadn't switched over to Clan Tech by the 3060s. It'd taken them 20 to 30 years to perfect SL Tech and they were just introducing it to their armies when the Clans invaded. That the IS was able to mass produce production quality versions of the Clan Prototypes in 6 years or so is amazing, and they've continued to create other new things since.

I do think that the IS should be producing more Clan Tech. All the Improved weapons for example. I can also see them producing limited amounts of standard Clan Tech for elite units. That more isn't massed produced I'd put on trying to rebuild from Jihad and other wars, plus supporting their own industries technological innovations.

If anything I think there's a severe lack of units with prototype tech for the IS between the 3030-3050. I also think the Clans went from prototype to Standard Clan Tech too fast. They skipped over the tech that the IS is using and went straight from prototypes to Clan Tech. I'd of given them 20-30 years of using the IS versions before going to Clan Tech. But that's just me.

[truetanker]

See I think your wrong, Clans do have prototypes. You have to remember that the ER Pulse lasers and the Streak LRMs are new in the Jihad era. But since we don't know what machines used them until the Dark Ages.

TT

[dgorsman]

Now this sounds pretty plausible!  Source?

Wars of the Republic Era, and several of the later TRO entries.

[RifleMech]

See I think your wrong, Clans do have prototypes. You have to remember that the ER Pulse lasers and the Streak LRMs are new in the Jihad era. But since we don't know what machines used them until the Dark Ages.

TT

I don't think any of the new tech in TacOps is "prototype" quality. They don't change any. It's more like limited production until later. Like the Bombast Laser was prototyped in 3064 and produced in 3085. It's like that for a lot of weapons. And I get that TPTB don't want another layer of weapons for people to complain about. (I wouldn't but others would.)

What I was referring to are the weapons used when the Clans first invaded the IS. They went from Improved SLDF Tech and prototypes of what the IS is using now, in Operation Klondike straight to Clan Tech in a few years. In some cases the research was happening at the same time. I would have thought there'd be a period of time where the Clans would be using what the IS is produced in the 3050's before upgrading to Clan Tech.

[Trailblazer]

Wars of the Republic Era, and several of the later TRO entries.

Thanks!

[Hellraiser]

  I totally agree. SL tech was a step ahead of 3025 and a step behind Clan tech. It didn't take long for the IS to master SL tech once scientists were no longer "committing suicide" and teams were obtaining plans and samples and open the tech floodgates.

Define Not Long?

The NAIS had a copy of the core sometime between 3025-3028?
It took them till 42 to figure out how to make a SFE w/ DHS inside it.

Which is something they already knew how to do in the past, they just had to get back up to speed w/ tech they had forgotten.

The Snubbie took the DC till 3067 to create because it wasn't a common item for the SLDF in 2780 & was only in the prototype & initial testing on a couple of designs stages.

What I was referring to are the weapons used when the Clans first invaded the IS. They went from Improved SLDF Tech and prototypes of what the IS is using now, in Operation Klondike straight to Clan Tech in a few years. In some cases the research was happening at the same time. I would have thought there'd be a period of time where the Clans would be using what the IS is produced in the 3050's before upgrading to Clan Tech.

While I don't care for how quickly clan tech was developed, I think one of the reasons behind that speed was that the clans didn't just have TRO2750 tech.
They had access to the best R&D stuff that the TH was just creating at that time.
So stuff that the clans had Prototyping like ERSL/ERML/Streak4-6 were probably things that were current R&D for the TH at the time.
They had the Snubbie stats.
They probably had some ideas on how to make Endo/Ferro less bulky but it wasn't even at the Field Testing phase like the Snubbie was.
They probably had early research into the "Improved" ERPPC already so it was just spending another 20 years to bring that from SLDF R&D level to Clans-Prototype level.


The IS on the other hand in 3025 were below AoW tech levels in the case of JS/WS technology & barely holding onto Intro Tech w/ all the old half repaired w/ flaws notes in the scenario books & fluff about certain DS engines no longer being able to be produced, etc etc.

So you get a house that can "barely" maintain intro tech & you give them a tech manual for SLDF tech.
It took them years just to decipher it all & then years more to prototype it.
The early 40's we start to see the first mechs using this tech coming off the production line & even then it was just a few models as test beds.

The stuff the clans had at the beginning was R&D the IS hadn't even seen yet at the time.
The houses had some SL stuff but they didn't have legions of Royal class machines & certainly not the very best stuff the TH had been working on in the 2700's.  Stuff in TRO2750 had it many cases been around for centuries.

If the Amaris crisis hadn't happened you would have seen the SLDF moving up to Clan Proto & IS-3060 standards by the end of the 2700's I'm sure.



The Jihad & the ROTS "Peacetech" also stopped a lot of the innovation that was just hitting in the late 60's.
I can see why only certain manufacturers are making Clan Spec in the dark ages.

They had suffered a lot in war & then stopped a lot of advanced R&D in order to get basics like food production, water purification, & JS transportation going again at full levels.

[glitterboy2098]

I think this is all fine; plausible enough that it works for a sci fi game universe anyway.  What makes less sense is the application of this explanation to the Combine specifically.  A whole district of the DC had already been brought up to Clan industrial standards by the time the Jags were beaten and the Cats merged with the DC.  And the Cats were producing plenty of their own Clan-tech hardware.  Why not find a way to expand that production a bit and divert the supply more broadly across the DC?

except that the jaguars didn't upgrade their OZ's. as seen in several novels, they let any infrastructure beyond the minimum to support the population lay fallow. the same as the Wolves and Falcons did. the Ghost Bears upgrading theirs was a unique thing originally, which turned out to be part of their plan to immigrate to the IS. the Falcons eventually started a similar project of rebuilding decrepit IS infrastructure in order to support their ambitions of further expansion. but the jaguars and the wolves never did. to the detriment of the Wolves after the Wars of Reaving. this also meant that the worlds the Combine recaptured during Operation Bulldog not only lacked clan enhancements, but in most cases were actually in worse shape than they'd been prior to their capture during the Clan Invasion. since the mines and refineries and factories had sat unused for decades and were accordingly broken down.

(in fact the jaguars treated the populace of the worlds they took so bad that many of them were lower in population than when lost to the clans, and the constant insurgencies on Jaguar OZ worlds caused a lot of damage beyond that which simple neglect would have resulted in)

[Fallen_Raven]

To directly answer why the Combine didn't get Clantech when the Nova Cats joined up, its because the Cats didn't want to hand it over. They had switched sides with the idea that they would be a fully independent power, but the Combine put them in the position of samurai vassals. Their superior equipment was one of the only bargaining chips that they had, and they were loathe to give it up. So they played the game of "we need to keep our production to replace our losses" balanced against "we don't have enough military strength to do it all on our own". The idea of being able to get the Combine to fork over the resources to kick start their industry like Arc Royal did, but the Combine weren't nearly so generous/easy to con.

From the Combine perspective they were trying to gain Clan technology, but couldn't risk letting the Nova Cats become the primary military force inside their borders. From the Nova Cat's perspective they had to rebuild their Touman enough to maintain their status, but not offend the Combine enough that they were cut off or attacked. So instead of getting a massive shot in the arm from hosting a Clan the Combine got stuck herding Cats.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The Snubbie took the DC till 3067 to create because it wasn't a common item for the SLDF in 2780 & was only in the prototype & initial testing on a couple of designs stages.

  The only mystery is why the DC bothered with an unproven design in the first place. It might have taken the DC design team only a week to finish what the SL couldn't accomplish, or is their documentation on the actual time and resources devoted to that one project?
  The Manhattan Project is well documented, from theory to detonation over Hiroshima, and the Manhattan Project employed more than 130,000 people and cost nearly US$ 2 billion (equivalent to almost 30 billion in 2020 dollars).

  Simple answer: For the same reason you don't have elves, aliens and catgirls, it would make the DC far too attractive to players.

[Maingunnery]

  The only mystery is why the DC bothered with an unproven design in the first place. It might have taken the DC design team only a week to finish what the SL couldn't accomplish, or is their documentation on the actual time and resources devoted to that one project?

Promising to do something within a week while taking years has harsh consequences in the DC, resulting excessive amount of seppuku among the designers, and even more delays.

[truetanker]

Simple answer: For the same reason you don't have elves, aliens and catgirls, it would make the DC far too attractive to players.

I'm a Marvel fan myself, so any tech is better than no tech.

Even RoS...

TT

[RifleMech]

While I don't care for how quickly clan tech was developed, I think one of the reasons behind that speed was that the clans didn't just have TRO2750 tech.
They had access to the best R&D stuff that the TH was just creating at that time.
So stuff that the clans had Prototyping like ERSL/ERML/Streak4-6 were probably things that were current R&D for the TH at the time.
They had the Snubbie stats.
They probably had some ideas on how to make Endo/Ferro less bulky but it wasn't even at the Field Testing phase like the Snubbie was.
They probably had early research into the "Improved" ERPPC already so it was just spending another 20 years to bring that from SLDF R&D level to Clans-Prototype level.


The IS on the other hand in 3025 were below AoW tech levels in the case of JS/WS technology & barely holding onto Intro Tech w/ all the old half repaired w/ flaws notes in the scenario books & fluff about certain DS engines no longer being able to be produced, etc etc.

So you get a house that can "barely" maintain intro tech & you give them a tech manual for SLDF tech.
It took them years just to decipher it all & then years more to prototype it.
The early 40's we start to see the first mechs using this tech coming off the production line & even then it was just a few models as test beds.

The stuff the clans had at the beginning was R&D the IS hadn't even seen yet at the time.
The houses had some SL stuff but they didn't have legions of Royal class machines & certainly not the very best stuff the TH had been working on in the 2700's.  Stuff in TRO2750 had it many cases been around for centuries.

If the Amaris crisis hadn't happened you would have seen the SLDF moving up to Clan Proto & IS-3060 standards by the end of the 2700's I'm sure.



The Jihad & the ROTS "Peacetech" also stopped a lot of the innovation that was just hitting in the late 60's.
I can see why only certain manufacturers are making Clan Spec in the dark ages.

They had suffered a lot in war & then stopped a lot of advanced R&D in order to get basics like food production, water purification, & JS transportation going again at full levels.

I agree. The Clans did have a head start since they had access not just the best tech the Star League had but all their research too. However, the Clans did produce things the SLDF didn't think was necessary. For example the UAC/5 didn't get expanded to other classes because of the jamming issue. It would have taken a shift in doctrine and training to see the other classes produced and used. Obviously that did happen but it seems awfully fast to me. The Clans only used handfuls of prototypes during Operation Klondike and the Wolverine Annihilation. Add in Clan Tech being more difficult and expensive to produce, I would have thought that tech advancement would have been a little more gradual. It feels like there's a generation of units missing.

I do agree that the IS was more hampered by not having access to a lot of SLDF tech and research. However, the IS still managed create new tech on their own by 3020's without the memory core. Once they had it they were manufacturing prototype SLDF Tech within 10 years. Yes, by the 3040's the IS would have been manufacturing some items to full SLDF production specs. Depending on the House, of course. Depending on the House, some items only started being manufactured at production quality in 3049. Just in time for the invasion.

So with the IS there's pretty much 30 years of new tech, and recovered prototype and production SLDF tech. Within another 5 years or so the IS is producing production versions of the Clan prototypes seen in Operation Klondike. Some of why the IS could make the "lower tech" Clan weapons so quickly I think was because they were what the SLDF would have produced if things had been different. The Clans proved they worked and were useful so the IS followed their example as best they could.

As with the Clans it feels like there's a generation of units missing between 3020 and 3045. Along with those from the Reunification War when the SLDF first introduced this tech. I know there's a few but there should be a lot more.

I'm not sure the SLDF would have used protos. Definitely Battle Armor but not Protos.  They'd have also produced some 3060's tech along with Improved Weapons. And more LAMs. Maybe even QuadVees and OMNI Technology. But not Protos. Maybe some of the tech to improved XL Mechs but that's it.

I do agree that the Jihad and all the rebuilding greatly slowed the IS's production of Clan Tech. I think the Houses would have also wanted to support their own industries though. They'd spent a lot of money on research and development of all kinds of weaponry and to go straight to Clan Tech would have cost them a great amount of money. By buying and using Advanced IS Tech, the Houses keep their manufactures solvent so they can eventually switch over to Clan Tech.

[massey]

My own headcanon is that the Inner Sphere had just spent a mega-buttload of money to upgrade their production facilities, and upgrading to Clan tech would have required an even greater expenditure.  Sometimes you just have to be content with what you've got.

Imagine you're Duke von Sauerkraut, ruler of 5 planets and 2 Battlemech factories.  The year is 3055.  The Clan Invasion has ended, and you've mortgaged yourself to the hilt to refit your old Battlemaster and Shadow Hawk factories so they're now producing Falconers and Rakshasas.  It might take 30 years before you're back to profitability, but you've got some locked-in government contracts so it should be okay.  It isn't just your factories that have been upgraded -- your cousin Duke von Schnitzengruben just built an orbital endo-steel facility from scratch.  That thing won't be paid off for a century, but again he's got some guaranteed contracts that'll keep it producing for at least that long.

Are any of these guys going to want to rebuild everything again for the latest shiny technology?  I mean Inner Sphere endo-steel is just as good as Clan tech as long as you aren't trying to cram an insane equipment load into a mech.  An IS Gauss Rifle is just as good as the Clan version, just heavier.  It's probably a lot cheaper to just buy more Battlemechs than it is to refit all these factories again.  Yeah, Clantech is awesome, and any mechwarrior will tell you that.  But to the beancounters, it's hard to justify completely rebuilding your infrastructure after you just did it.

[dgorsman]

Clan beancounters are different from IS ones: they ultimately answer to the Warrior caste, not stockholders and/or government officials.  While access to high grade and/or difficult to produce materials in the IS have to be fought over by who pays more, which government restrictions make it possible/more profitable/etc., for the Clan homeworlds it's much simpler.  If it's used to make something the warrior caste wants they get it, regardless of any stamping of feet or holding of breath by scientist or merchant caste.  In some cases a clan may get caught short by losing critical trials, such as the Blood Spirits, but it's a much different economic mechanic.

[ravensword]

My question is why the "improved" weapons from the Early Clan period weren't put into production by the IS.  Judging by tech level (E vs. F), they've got to be easier to make.

[RifleMech]

My own headcanon is that the Inner Sphere had just spent a mega-buttload of money to upgrade their production facilities, and upgrading to Clan tech would have required an even greater expenditure.  Sometimes you just have to be content with what you've got.

(snip)

 :thumbsup:

Clan beancounters are different from IS ones: they ultimately answer to the Warrior caste, not stockholders and/or government officials.  While access to high grade and/or difficult to produce materials in the IS have to be fought over by who pays more, which government restrictions make it possible/more profitable/etc., for the Clan homeworlds it's much simpler.  If it's used to make something the warrior caste wants they get it, regardless of any stamping of feet or holding of breath by scientist or merchant caste.  In some cases a clan may get caught short by losing critical trials, such as the Blood Spirits, but it's a much different economic mechanic.

That's what bugs me about the Clans though. Much of the equipment they produced was equipment that either wasn't popular or considered unnecessary. Otherwise the SLDF would have been using it. Instead, after a couple campaigns, the Clans start producing the most advanced versions possible. When did the shift in attitude happen? I understand the IS producing them. They could see how well the Clans used them. I also get that Nicky was thinking way outside the box to produce the prototypes. But when did the Clans decide the weapons were worth producing in advanced form?  ???

My question is why the "improved" weapons from the Early Clan period weren't put into production by the IS.  Judging by tech level (E vs. F), they've got to be easier to make.

That would be do to the retcon that had Improved weapons going extinct long, long before the Clans Invaded the IS. Since they were extinct no examples existed for the IS to capture and reverse engineer. I have no idea why they were retconned. I would have thought the Clans would continue to produce them as replacements for the old Standard versions. They're a great way to upgrade older units.


 I've wondered why the retcon to have Clans stop producing them since they're better than the Standard versions?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  I've wondered why the retcon to have Clans stop producing them since they're better than the Standard versions?

  Cray always says: Figure it out.

  Clan research and production is at the whim of the Warrior caste, who are not scientists...

Scientist: We have finished the first prototype of the Hyperblazooka and it is mounted on your Warhawk.
Warrior: What, that ugly thing? I will not have my foes ridiculing me due to a silly looking weapon.
Scientist: But...but...It is the most powerful weapon ever devised, it fires a stream of plasma-bonded antimatter. This is also just a prototype.
Warrior: I do not care, it looks like a huge flower, and a purple one, at that -Unacceptable!
Scientist: But...
Warrior: Dispose of it, and go work on something that will make my Omni look really cool, because that is most important.

[Alexander Knight]

Well, it's also that the Warriors insisted on researching what was most important to them.  The genetic recombination techniques for better sibkos.

[grimlock1]

  Cray always says: Figure it out.

  Clan research and production is at the whim of the Warrior caste, who are not scientists...

Scientist: We have finished the first prototype of the Hyperblazooka and it is mounted on your Warhawk.
Warrior: What, that ugly thing? I will not have my foes ridiculing me due to a silly looking weapon.
Scientist: But...but...It is the most powerful weapon ever devised, it fires a stream of plasma-bonded antimatter. This is also just a prototype.
Warrior: I do not care, it looks like a huge flower, and a purple one, at that -Unacceptable!
Scientist: But...
Warrior: Dispose of it, and go work on something that will make my Omni look really cool, because that is most important.

And we wonder why the Society was planning a coup....

I've wondered why the retcon to have Clans stop producing them since they're better than the Standard versions?

But they are inferior to Clan-spec gear.  The Clans use standard Intro and Star League gear in solahama units and second line, because they have lots of stuff laying around in Brian Caches. As to why phase out the Improved or Prototype stuff?  The Clans have never been fluffed as having a massive industrial base and a factory is a big investment.  There is a logic to shutting down the Enhanced ER PPC line, retooling and starting to crank out Clan spec ER PPCs, rather than build a new factory and maintaining both production lines. Not saying it's the right call but there is some planning involved.

[Elmoth]

The "looking good" did not prevent the fielding of the Dasher, so I am unsure about that reasoning....

[truetanker]

Hey it goes " Beep- Beep " and you can't get out of second gear cause you passed that rambler...

TT

[truetanker]

Double post...

TT

[RifleMech]

  Cray always says: Figure it out.

  Clan research and production is at the whim of the Warrior caste, who are not scientists...

True and I would think Warriors would welcome a cheap easy upgrade that would make older units more effective.

But they are inferior to Clan-spec gear.  The Clans use standard Intro and Star League gear in solahama units and second line, because they have lots of stuff laying around in Brian Caches. As to why phase out the Improved or Prototype stuff?  The Clans have never been fluffed as having a massive industrial base and a factory is a big investment.  There is a logic to shutting down the Enhanced ER PPC line, retooling and starting to crank out Clan spec ER PPCs, rather than build a new factory and maintaining both production lines. Not saying it's the right call but there is some planning involved.

I don't have an issue with phasing out the prototypes. That's bound to happen. That it happens so quickly seems a bit odd to me.

As for the Improved Weapons, the Improved Missile Systems I can see disappearing quickly. The Improved Gauss Rifle too. Clan versions beat them all the time. The other Improved weapons I can see staying around. Like I said above, they're a great way to upgrade older units. Replacing Standard with Improved frees up tonnage to be used on other things. They can also use alternative munitions which the LBX and Ultras can't. That may not be so great compared to Cluster Rounds but the extra tonnage can be used to double the unit's endurance. I think that's a good thing. 

Plus it's a missed opportunity. Imagine full Clan Spec Autocannons. Not Improved SLDF models but full Clan Tech. The Protomech ACs give us a look at what could have been.  They'd be amazing.

[glitterboy2098]

My own headcanon is that the Inner Sphere had just spent a mega-buttload of money to upgrade their production facilities, and upgrading to Clan tech would have required an even greater expenditure.  Sometimes you just have to be content with what you've got.

Imagine you're Duke von Sauerkraut, ruler of 5 planets and 2 Battlemech factories.  The year is 3055.  The Clan Invasion has ended, and you've mortgaged yourself to the hilt to refit your old Battlemaster and Shadow Hawk factories so they're now producing Falconers and Rakshasas.  It might take 30 years before you're back to profitability, but you've got some locked-in government contracts so it should be okay.  It isn't just your factories that have been upgraded -- your cousin Duke von Schnitzengruben just built an orbital endo-steel facility from scratch.  That thing won't be paid off for a century, but again he's got some guaranteed contracts that'll keep it producing for at least that long.

Are any of these guys going to want to rebuild everything again for the latest shiny technology?  I mean Inner Sphere endo-steel is just as good as Clan tech as long as you aren't trying to cram an insane equipment load into a mech.  An IS Gauss Rifle is just as good as the Clan version, just heavier.  It's probably a lot cheaper to just buy more Battlemechs than it is to refit all these factories again.  Yeah, Clantech is awesome, and any mechwarrior will tell you that.  But to the beancounters, it's hard to justify completely rebuilding your infrastructure after you just did it.

and it gets worse when you consider that for most of the inner sphere, Comstar was not just the phone company, it was the savings and loan bank as well. the reliable loans needed to upgrade your factories wouldn't be available from comstar until after the schism..  so you'd have to use the central bank of your successor state, which is going to be not only less secure than a comstar one but also surrounded with a lot more fine print putting the successor state in control of the result.

after the schism, comstar just isn't as reliable as a bank anymore, so even though the loans would not be avaialble, fewer people would be likely to take them. especially after the WoB take over comstar's facilities and operations in parts of the IS, making it uncertain whether your loan would remain in comstar hands.

with with major political changes every decade, this economic uncertainty would remain a constant.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

The "looking good" did not prevent the fielding of the Dasher, so I am unsure about that reasoning....

  Somebody approved of making Protomechs look like D&D figs...The Dasher's appearance might have been to shame Light pilots...

[massey]

I don't know what you guys are talking about.  The Dasher looks kickass.

[glitterboy2098]

clearly the Dasher was part of a clever stratagem meant to deceiver the enemy regarding the size of the mech. principle as seen here  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtVIvmOPHOQ

[Jellico]

To directly answer why the Combine didn't get Clantech when the Nova Cats joined up, its because the Cats didn't want to hand it over. They had switched sides with the idea that they would be a fully independent power, but the Combine put them in the position of samurai vassals. Their superior equipment was one of the only bargaining chips that they had, and they were loathe to give it up. So they played the game of "we need to keep our production to replace our losses" balanced against "we don't have enough military strength to do it all on our own". The idea of being able to get the Combine to fork over the resources to kick start their industry like Arc Royal did, but the Combine weren't nearly so generous/easy to con.

From the Combine perspective they were trying to gain Clan technology, but couldn't risk letting the Nova Cats become the primary military force inside their borders. From the Nova Cat's perspective they had to rebuild their Touman enough to maintain their status, but not offend the Combine enough that they were cut off or attacked. So instead of getting a massive shot in the arm from hosting a Clan the Combine got stuck herding Cats.

The new TRO has something to say on that.

[Trailblazer]

  Somebody approved of making Protomechs look like D&D figs

Hahahaha well said  :thumbsup:  God I hate the TRO 3060 art

[codigo]

I disagree. If you handed took the entire technical data package for Intel's latest chip, hopped in a time machine and gave it to AMD of 20 years ago, they would be a couple years before they could get it into production.  It's not a matter of making a Clan spec medium laser.  It's a matter of making the tools to make the tools to make that Clan spec laser.   Phalen described the workshops on the Dire Wolf as being far superior to anything he encountered in the Sphere.
Not only is it a matter of the tools to make the tools, working with new materials means a learning curve.    Clan Endo and FF are more compact, suggesting greater density and strength.  How do you drill a hole in that stuff now?  There are a thousand little lessons like this that only come with experience, as you tool up for full rate production.

I disagree with your disagreement. Operation BULLDOG saw to the annihilation of clan Smoke Jaguar. With that, the Star League had access to the whole of Huntress, the jaguar's homeworld.

The SLDF had access to Huntress orbital factories and all the personnel used to manufacture clan technologies. It is one thing to reverse engineer something without knowing what processes were used to create it. It is another to have access to the factories, the scientists and technicians needed to do it.

And I don't believe, even for a second, that the scientist would not disclose the information. The jaguar's warriors were disdainful, if not outright violent, of any lower caste. Especially where freeborns were involved. With their clan annihilated, their hated masters killed, don't you think they would allow their conquerors knowledge of their technology?

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

Nah. Having the IS tech lagging behind the clans, even 100 years after Operation Bulldog its an editorial decision. For me, it doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

  Agreed, it worked for the Allies after WW2...

[RifleMech]

And I don't believe, even for a second, that the scientist would not disclose the information. The jaguar's warriors were disdainful, if not outright violent, of any lower caste. Especially where freeborns were involved. With their clan annihilated, their hated masters killed, don't you think they would allow their conquerors knowledge of their technology?

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

I think it would depend in part on how well they were treated. Then again the scientists may think they're above the IS and intentionally drag their feet. After all the warriors didn't listen to them and look what happened. The IS barbarians defeated them. Why should they willingly work with their inferiors to bring them up to their level?

[grimlock1]

I disagree with your disagreement. Operation BULLDOG saw to the annihilation of clan Smoke Jaguar. With that, the Star League had access to the whole of Huntress, the jaguar's homeworld.

The SLDF had access to Huntress orbital factories and all the personnel used to manufacture clan technologies. It is one thing to reverse engineer something without knowing what processes were used to create it. It is another to have access to the factories, the scientists and technicians needed to do it.

And I don't believe, even for a second, that the scientist would not disclose the information. The jaguar's warriors were disdainful, if not outright violent, of any lower caste. Especially where freeborns were involved. With their clan annihilated, their hated masters killed, don't you think they would allow their conquerors knowledge of their technology?

Wouldn't the SLDF take them to the IS, and through bargaining or simply brainwashing gain all their knowledge?

Nah. Having the IS tech lagging behind the clans, even 100 years after Operation Bulldog its an editorial decision. For me, it doesn't make sense otherwise.

You raise some excellent points.  From the context of 3150, yeah, there's no really good reason to have Clan tech be uncommon in the front line units of the major powers.  It should be practically the norm. Second line units should see a smattering of Clan tech. After all, is it really worth replacing the IS endo steel in a 300 year old Starslayer that's on some backwater?  Just upgrade the large lasers, and give it 2 more heat sinks. I think you will still see IS-grade stuff being sold to minor powers and small mercs.  More modern equivalents of the Sentry and Watchman. There's always someone out there on a budget.

I think this will happen because it's not just about the cost of the mechs and weapons.  The cost of upgrading your factory, while invisible to us players, can be considerable. If your profit margins are slim enough, you might not be able to afford shutting down your ER Medium Laser factory to retool it for producing Clan ER Medium Lasers. Given the size the Inner Sphere, there will be a non-trivial number of manufacturers who, for one reason or another, stick with what they've been building.

This wasn't as big an issue when the Clans transitioned from IS to "proto-Clan" to proper Clan tech.  Their industrial base was far smaller, and they had a more or less "command" economy. Factory managers don't need to worry about generating a profit for the board of directors or being able to pay their workers.

[dgorsman]

This wasn't as big an issue when the Clans transitioned from IS to "proto-Clan" to proper Clan tech.  Their industrial base was far smaller, and they had a more or less "command" economy. Factory managers don't need to worry about generating a profit for the board of directors or being able to pay their workers.

Or competing with other factories/purchasers for rare or difficult to process materials.  It's either available and defended through trials, or not available.  There's little to no "I can pay X amount more than the next guy without losing money".

[idea weenie]

  I think this will happen because it's not just about the cost of the mechs and weapons.  The cost of upgrading your factory, while invisible to us players, can be considerable. If your profit margins are slim enough, you might not be able to afford shutting down your ER Medium Laser factory to retool it for producing Clan ER Medium Lasers. Given the size the Inner Sphere, there will be a non-trivial number of manufacturers who, for one reason or another, stick with what they've been building. 

There should have been a few factories in each Successor State that were privately funded by the Successor Lord, and upgraded to produce Clan tech.  Not a lot, and the factories would have had to be quietly upgraded, but it would allow a slow replacement of components on that House's Battlemechs.

So IS and SL tech might be a bit more free among the mercenaries and militia defenders, but at the core of each House's strength are elite units with Clantech.

Figure each planet has a few IS grade weapons they can produce for their local militia, and strapped onto IndustrialMechs.  The local capitals are capable of equipping their Battlemechs with Star League technology.  The House's capital has a few factories to produce Clantech.

But all of those SL-capable factories also have spare parts nearby to upgrade them to Clantech capability, and those SL components are marked as to be sent to certain worlds that are producing IS tech.  Decision for when and where the upgrades should go are based on data from HPG messaging, but as soon as the HPG network shut down, everyone kicked off their own private wars.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Simple reason: Their hats just weren't white enough...

[grimlock1]

Simple reason: Their hats just weren't white enough...

Curse you and your Doylist reasoning! ;D

[idea weenie]

Simple reason: Their hats just weren't white enough...

This is the Combine, so wouldn't white be a color of death?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

This is the Combine, so wouldn't white be a color of death?

Sssshhhhh! That would go beyond the usual, factional window-dressing...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

True and I would think Warriors would welcome a cheap easy upgrade that would make older units more effective.

  If they were rational, perhaps, but you always have those who demand expensive, difficult to manufacture items, because they place little value on labor and materials, as the lower castes exist to serve the people in charge and nothing else gives them meaning.

[RifleMech]

  If they were rational, perhaps, but you always have those who demand expensive, difficult to manufacture items, because they place little value on labor and materials, as the lower castes exist to serve the people in charge and nothing else gives them meaning.

Very true. As such it should vary among the Clans as their demands vary.