IS Omni-mechs...A dead end?

[Demon55]

Why design new onmis when you can reconfigure the ones you have?

[Joshua D]

If your logistical train can handle it?  Yes.  Not in dribs and drabs but an Omni-heavy unit can share pods and be able to stop for an hour and suddenly turn around and come out swinging with a very different mix of capabilities.  There's a lot of potential there but the IS is not prepared to exploit it properly.

Which is what I imagine will end up happening in the future.  Omni-technology is very limited in its usefulness when there are only 3-4 omnimechs a company. This is probably why most IS omni pilots find one loadout and stick with it; the loadout that lets them work best within their lance-company.  Once industry returns to full capacity (such as may happen during the Stone-Age "Peace") we may began to see full companies of omnis, allowing their capabilities to be fully utilized.

[RedMarauder]

I don't think they're a dead end.  Their a "pocketknife" design that's meant to be easily adaptable to any combat situation.  That alone would make me want to field a lance of them.  However, that one lance is obscenely expensive compared to a standard lance of pretty much equal machines.  So, the number you field is relatively low compared to the number of BattleMechs you'll have.  Unless you're the Clans *shrugs.* 

If you want a mech you can pretty much configure on the fly between missions, omnis are your man.

If you want a less expensive, easily-maintained, and powerful design, then stay away from them. 

[Orin J.]

Which is what I imagine will end up happening in the future.  Omni-technology is very limited in its usefulness when there are only 3-4 omnimechs a company. This is probably why most IS omni pilots find one loadout and stick with it; the loadout that lets them work best within their lance-company.  Once industry returns to full capacity (such as may happen during the Stone-Age "Peace") we may began to see full companies of omnis, allowing their capabilities to be fully utilized.

i'm inclined to agree to a point here. after what i understand happened to the industrial base during the jihad and the 'mech numbers in the dark ages i expect that there's going to be a call for 'mechs that can be called on in many roles to refit units that need to be replenished and the house lords will probably try to utilize omnimech companies to make their reduced forces more flexible.

i don't think it will be fully utilized though, mainly because the IS armies tend to favor certain weapons over actual utility. and besides, that's what custom loadouts are for!  ;)

[Joshua D]

i don't think it will be fully utilized though, mainly because the IS armies tend to favor certain weapons over actual utility. and besides, that's what custom loadouts are for!  ;)

Well true, there's no fun in having a completely logical military  ;D

[Stormfury]

Or maybe it was the fact that they already produced all the 1st Gen omnis.

Yes, so why not improve on existing designs by installing Light Ferro-Fibrous, an Endo Steel frame, removing fixed items, and so on? Even if all they do is that and slap a "Mark II" at the end of it, it is still an improvement.

The 'focus factions' each produce an assault omni, and the LA license-builds Firestarter-Os and Black Hawk-KUs.  Together they only produce half the omni designs the Combine does.

Given that both recieved the best of the original Omnis and imported the ones they did not manufacture in large numbers, the same argument can be applied- why, if they already had access to such machines, did they develop second-generation OmniMechs?

When you add in the fact that there's little difference between the better 1st gen omnis(Sunder and BHKU frex) and 2nd gen omnis, there's really no need for the Combine to have a 2nd gen omni.

The first-generation OmniMech loadouts are badly, badly dated. Not a problem if your home games allow customs, but a major issue when comparing the Sunder to either the Hauptman or Templar. Others, such as the Owens, Strider, and Firestarter have some major flaws on top of that.

If the other nations, even the Capellan Confederation, found it necessary, desirable, or possible to develop improved Omni chassis, why not the Combine?

[Klat]

Why design new onmis when you can reconfigure the ones you have?

Because many of the innovations in IS tech can't be pod mounted. Advanced gyros and TSM, among some other newer technologies, could be a big deal for IS OmniMechs. Also the realization that CASE can be pod mounted could be a significant factor for IS OmniMech design. Looking to the Celestials we can see some of this in action; the Deva could be a real pain to put down since it was still mobile after the first gyro hit, and the Seraph was scary when it was configured to activate its TSM. Really the small cockpits and hard mounted C3i are my only real gripes regarding the Celestials, and in both cases that equipment was there for a good reason, even if it makes them less than ideal for anyone other than the Manei Domini.

[LastChanceCav]

Although it saddens me, I think its unlikely we'll be seeing any more IS omnimechs.  I don't know too much about the Dark Ages, but it seems omnis decline even more than standard mechs - which is an even bigger shame, since you should want the few mechs remaining to be as flexible as possible.  They would also be well suited to smaller elite commands too for similar reasons.

I'm not sure the IS needs too many updated omnimechs, but there are roles that could filled by more efficient units, like an ES/DHS version of the Owens, as has already been mentioned.  I don't think the time it took the clans to make the jump between different generations of omnis is a good gauge of how fast the IS should go either.  It's a lot easier to do something once you know someone else can.  The first generation of omnis suffered from their shortened/rushed development period, while mechs like the Templar and Hauptmann show what the IS is capable of if it takes its time.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that more (and better) omnis appear in the IS, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Cheers,
LCC

[Arkansas Warrior]

Given that both recieved the best of the original Omnis and imported the ones they did not manufacture in large numbers, the same argument can be applied- why, if they already had access to such machines, did they develop second-generation OmniMechs?
 
If the other nations, even the Capellan Confederation, found it necessary, desirable, or possible to develop improved Omni chassis, why not the Combine?

Two Reasons: 1)factional pride and 2)national security.
 
1)Everybody wants their own stuff.  Read in TRO 3050 where it talks about DC warriors not wanting Quentin's Victors because they're seen as Davion designs, or not wanting Hachetmen because they don't like axes.  Of course other nations are going to try to buid their own omnis.
 
2)Importing all your omnis, especially from a traditional enemies (as was the case for the LA and FS, with the exception of the LA's licensed FS9-Os and BHKU-Os) is a *bad* idea.  Even for their erstwhile Kapteyn allies, the designs must be shipped across the FC to get there.  If you build your own omnis, at your own place, it's not a problem.  Is there any other case of a Successor State, or all the Successor States, producing their equipment from a single source?  Producing the IS's only supply of IS Omnis gives the DC a monopoly nearly akin to that of ComStar.  It can't last, but  even so, they still originate and produce (prejihad) 8 of the 13 (IIRC) IS Omni designs.

[LastChanceCav]

I think part of the decline of the omnimech is the reduction of the House funded forces. Omnimechs debuted after the age of the family mech, and are state property.  I'm guessing its going to be the mechs that belong to the old, hereditary mechwarrior family mechs that will survive the reductions.

Cheers,
LCC

[Stormfury]

Importing all your omnis, especially from a traditional enemies (as was the case for the LA and FS, with the exception of the LA's licensed FS9-Os and BHKU-Os) is a *bad* idea.  Even for their erstwhile Kapteyn allies, the designs must be shipped across the FC to get there.  If you build your own omnis, at your own place, it's not a problem.  Is there any other case of a Successor State, or all the Successor States, producing their equipment from a single source?  Producing the IS's only supply of IS Omnis gives the DC a monopoly nearly akin to that of ComStar.  It can't last, but  even so, they still originate and produce (prejihad) 8 of the 13 (IIRC) IS Omni designs.

Every nation produces their own Omnis. By Jihad's end, the other Successor States have been manufacturing new Omnis at their own facilities for longer than (3058-3081, 23 years) the Combine had their OmniMech factories (3052-3067), total. Other nations might only have a few lines each, but a few still handily beats none.

The Combine only had "exclusivity" on the OmniMechs for six years at the most. Since then, they have been rather comprehensively overtaken, not only in terms of successive OmniMech generations, but in many cases known configurations.

The Suns had their own Blackjack Omni, Black Hawk KU and Avatar lines in addition to the Templar. I don't know how that translates to importing all their material.

[Sigma]

I'm surprised people talking about the shaky future of new omnis haven't mentioned that the DA gets an Atlas omni (Yes, the hockymask one) in the 3130's I think? Maybe 3140's. The XTRO's have also been favorably pointing toward omni versions of new chassis that may be built later.

I'm just saying, what's the point if the people using them don't use them as intended or they lack the proper logistical support?

I think part of the decline of the omnimech is the reduction of the House funded forces. Omnimechs debuted after the age of the family mech, and are state property.  I'm guessing its going to be the mechs that belong to the old, hereditary mechwarrior family mechs that will survive the reductions.

Cheers,
LCC

Much as I am a huge fan of the family mech, they are the group that has taken the most losses of all types of mech ownership. They are exceedingly rare in the DA. Even more so in the RotS where they were pretty forcibly stamped out or converted to Stoners. Remember the TRO 3085 Atlas entry.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Suns had their own Blackjack Omni, Black Hawk KU and Avatar lines in addition to the Templar. I don't know how that translates to importing all their material.

Source?  The only times the Suns gets mentioned in the omni entries of TRO 3058U, it's importing mechs.  They aren't listed as having a single factory.  They explicitly import the Strider, Firestarter-O, and captured some Black Hawk-KUs.  They may well import Raptors and Owenses, but the text isn't clear.  The Blackjack-O, Avatar, and Sunder make no mention of the FS, and Avatars were explicitly sold only to the Lyran half of the FC.  This is as of March 3070 in universe.

[Lord Harlock]

The Crofton StarCorps facility had a license to produce the Combine Omnimechs page 90 of TRO 3067.  This helped with the designing of the Thantos, but then the AFFS Quartermaster declined to buy a Omnimech version. Though they still bought the Mantefuffel.

The New Valencia GM facility produced the Avatar and Black Jack Omni according to Housebook Davion page 171.

Black Hawk KUs were produced on New Avalon by Corean Enterprises as stated in Housebook Davion page 170.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Weird, you'd think '58U would have mentioned that.  I shall have to reevaluate my argument. :-[

[Lord Harlock]

No problem. The reason that it isn't mentioned is that I know for a fact that StarCorps lost their license to produce the designs later. GM probably lost when their facility exploded. And Corean probably just lost it the same way that StarCorps did.

Though I know how it feels. If someone told me that Quintus Allard-Liao was killed off in a throw away line in a sourcebook that I probably owned, I'd be banging my head into the desk.  And then to add insult to injury that I was told that the missing Avalon Cruiser, the Andrew Davion, had been secretly captured by the Ravens when the crew was drunk one night I'd probably have broken the desk all together.

[Arkansas Warrior]

It's just that I didn't think to look for information on the '58 omnis in a TRO besides '58. ???

[Lord Harlock]

I have no explanation for that one. Probably someone forgot some details on the issue. Which is why I guess they expanded the fact checkers later on.

[LastChanceCav]

It surprising what designs pop up when you look through the "Economics" section in the different House Books (i.e., the FWL is building Owens, Blackjacks and Striders - no wonder it took them so long to get turned on to building the Persesus, the Combine sure licensed them some winners  ;) ).

Cheers,
LCC

[Traecer Revenant]

I can agree there...the Hauptmann is the Inner Sphere's Dire Wolf: The premier Assault OmniMech.

Does that make the Templar the Inner Sphere Warhawk?

[LastChanceCav]

Does that make the Templar the Inner Sphere Warhawk?

Absolutely, right down to the TC ... and without all those overly fixed DHS.

Cheers,
LCC

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Also, neither are currently in production.

[Lord Harlock]

You know that is a pretty sad statement right there.

[haesslich]

I'm wondering if part of the issue with no new IS OmniMechs using the tech that the Celestials used is because of the issues created with crit slots (or specifically, the lack of available crits after installing them) which apparently forced the WoBblies to deploy what were okay if not outstanding Omnis?  You're basically forced to use small cockpits and

At least according to my copy of TechManual, it takes up six slots throughout the Mech... which means that, depending on the pod location, you've lost enough room to mount at least one weapon.  While the Light Engine takes up fewer crit slots in the side torso than the IS-equivalent XL, you're still forced to figure out where to stick various things like DHS or jump jets (if the design needs them).  Isn't that why the Seraph is stuck with an U/AC 10 and a snub-nose PPC in its primary configuration, which seems like relatively light equipment for an 85-tonner?  Its HEAVIEST configuration, in my books, has the two Heavy PPC's and a light along with pulse lasers... and it only manages that because the lasers take so few critical slots.  And this, along with the Deva, are probably the best of the Celestials for pod space.

Heck, isn't that why the Dire Wolf, the Clans' heaviest Omni, used Standard engines and armor? 

[Cyc]

Also, neither are currently in production.

Well, we don't know that, just the production lines for Warhawk were always on the Homeworlds, so the cutoff is why no new ones appearing in the Inner Sphere.

[Moonsword]

I'm wondering if part of the issue with no new IS OmniMechs using the tech that the Celestials used is because of the issues created with crit slots (or specifically, the lack of available crits after installing them) which apparently forced the WoBblies to deploy what were okay if not outstanding Omnis?

This is why the Avatar, Sunder, and Hauptmann are such useful platforms - their crits are basically wide open overall.  The real "winners" for screwed up crits on an IS Omni are the Templar and Perseus.

As for the Celestials, crits aren't really a problem at all, at least not more than for other Omnis of the same general size.  All of them other than the Malak have a lot of open spaces.  The Malak dodges the problem by being, like all lights, starved for tonnage to begin with, so it's less of an issue there.  The Seraph Invictus's primary problem is the retractable blade, although mixing MMLs and Streaks is also eating into your tonnage.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Well, we don't know that, just the production lines for Warhawk were always on the Homeworlds, so the cutoff is why no new ones appearing in the Inner Sphere.

For the purposes of the narrative in the immediate future, though, the Homeworlds don't exist.

[Minemech]

It surprising what designs pop up when you look through the "Economics" section in the different House Books (i.e., the FWL is building Owens, Blackjacks and Striders - no wonder it took them so long to get turned on to building the Persesus, the Combine sure licensed them some winners  ;) ).

Cheers,
LCC

All 3 were very logical choices. Notice what 2 devices seem to show up fairly often on the Strider and Owens to figure out why a military that loves missiles, particularly semi-guided ones would choose them. In the case of the Blackjack, why do people seem to think its bad?

[Moonsword]

It's the only one of the three that isn't idiotically crippled in one way or another.  The fact that you can use an Owens doesn't change the fact that the design team made two very major mistakes on the design and the Strider's lack of double heat sinks is a similarly large problem.  And even then, the Blackjack's lack of crits gets in the way of some possible uses of all that tonnage... which means that of their Omnis, two have crit problems, one is a specialist whose possible configurations are severely circumscribed by the lack of double heat sinks, and the fourth lacks the DHS to again efficiently use its tonnage, effectively dead-ending the design as a light missile boat.

EDIT: Also, a number of the Owens configurations were apparently designed by pulling random things out of the parts bin, which doesn't help the design's reputation at all.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

All 3 were very logical choices. Notice what 2 devices seem to show up fairly often on the Strider and Owens to figure out why a military that loves missiles, particularly semi-guided ones would choose them. In the case of the Blackjack, why do people seem to think its bad?

I think the BJ-2O's bad rep stems mostly from its being a 4/6/4 50 ton mech with an XL engine.  It does outgun many heavy mechs, but it's pretty fragile.