Author Topic: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085  (Read 19690 times)

IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #60 on: 09 February 2011, 14:09:58 »
Not really if we're discussing C3 spotting.  Getting closer than 7 hexes submits you to the enemy's ECM, rendering your mission pointless.  At 7 hexes, even standing still, you'll still need more than 4 ER Medium Lasers to equal or exceed the damage of the two SNPPCs, at which point, you won't be able to handle the heat.

ECCM. A C3 network is already a difficult thing to pull off these days since most players have a rough idea of the counters. You'll be hard pressed to stay out of 7 hexes of any enemy mech unless you move the spotter as the last unit in the movement phase and your opponent has spaced his mechs awfully far apart. It works early on as the forces are still closing, but it's a declining opportunity as the match goes. You can keep at 7 hexes of your spotted target and keep the other enemy mechs at a near-impossible TH pretty well, but to keep them all at least 7 hexes away isn't that easy. This makes ECM something you'll likely run into from turn to turn. ECCM is key if it's allowed, and if not, you'll be doing the same thing attempting to kill his ECM-carriers as he will your spotters.

Also, for ERMLs, that point is entirely dependent upon staying at 7 hexes. Which isn't always where you want to be for C3. MRms, for example, are fairly popular on C3 units. C3 isn't all about sticking at extreme ranges and plinking away. It's also about making weapons with poor range brackets usable in a more versatile combat role.

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Those are hardly equal values for a C3 spotter.  At 9 hexes, my lance takes shots at medium instead of short range and I survive the turn.  At 3 hexes enemy ECM has likely cut your network, enemy MLs and SRMs are ripping into you, and unless you significantly outgun them or they're somewhat dullwitted, you'll have a crippled spotter at turns end.

Weapons with a 7 hex short range include LRMs, all Gauss, ER PPCs, & ER Large Lasers.  6 hexes means risking an ECM bubble.  Combining the fact that weapons with short range brackets of 6 or less are rarer and less desirable overall for C3 with the vulnerability to ECM makes it a bad choice.

Again, while 7 hexes might be ideal, 3 allows a whole range of options that you don't get that far out. Again, ECM is a problem, but isn't omnipresent or impossible to work around. The ability to bring traditionally "Medium Range Bracket" weapons into short range can allow generally underpowered designs to absolutely demolish enemy forces.
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MadCapellan

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #61 on: 09 February 2011, 19:50:57 »
ECCM.

An advanced rule that the majority don't play with.  Even assuming that they do, ECCM simply means that the Yao Lien can counteract 1 ECM Suite.  2, and you're still off the network.  Considering the ever increasing frequency of ECM Suites, odds are pretty good that any target lance will have two.  Planning on running closer than 7 hexes is just too dicey, when running 7 from the target is still extremely effective and doesn't require putting your connection or spotter at risk.

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You'll be hard pressed to stay out of 7 hexes of any enemy mech unless you move the spotter as the last unit in the movement phase and your opponent has spaced his mechs awfully far apart.

Not really.  Your spotter should always have initiative priority for your force, and it should be easy enough to be 7 hexes away from the closest enemy unit.  If you lose initiative, dropping back to be at 9 hexes still gives your forces medium range without losing your spotter to enemy fire, which is generally what happens if you get closer.

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ECCM is key if it's allowed, and if not, you'll be doing the same thing attempting to kill his ECM-carriers as he will your spotters.

Problem being, his ECM Carrier is likely a 3/5 100 ton armor slab, and your spotter is a 55 ton XL engined skirmisher.  Also, his 3/5 100 ton armor slab is probably chilling right next to the rest of it's lance, while your skirmisher is out ahead of your force to spot.  If it wasn't, there'd be no need for a C³ network.

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MRms, for example, are fairly popular on C3 units.

C³ is very popular on MRM units.  It really shouldn't be phrased the other way.  C³ makes MRMs suck less.  MRMs don't do anything that C³ can't already do.  With their max range of 15, C³ on MRMs is a little silly, as your gunline has to be at Gauss medium range to even have a chance to hit.  There's really no need for a dedicated spotter in a MRM C³ lance.  A spotter moving rapidly ahead of a MRM lance just quickly outruns the missiles it's spotting for.   It's better to just move the whole lance in a loose formation so that they can give supporting fire to each other at point-blank range. 

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Again, while 7 hexes might be ideal, 3 allows a whole range of options that you don't get that far out. Again, ECM is a problem, but isn't omnipresent or impossible to work around. The ability to bring traditionally "Medium Range Bracket" weapons into short range can allow generally underpowered designs to absolutely demolish enemy forces.

Unfortunately, if you are talking about a Medium weight spotter, you are also entering a range at which the secondary close-range weapons of most 'Mechs (medium lasers, SRMs, etc) will cripple the spotter after a turn or two of fire, which basically means you are sacrificing an entire 'Mech for a turn or two of good shots.  I'd rather my spotter live because he didn't need to rush in close to get off pulse laser fire of his own, when I've got Gauss Rifles to deliver the heavy hitting down range.

IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #62 on: 10 February 2011, 10:54:20 »
An advanced rule that the majority don't play with. Planning on running closer than 7 hexes is just too dicey, when running 7 from the target is still extremely effective and doesn't require putting your connection or spotter at risk.

Not that dicey if you know where is ECM carriers are. Admittedly the issue of ECCM being an advanced rule is there, but among C3 players its actually fairly commonly used.

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Your spotter should always have initiative priority for your force, and it should be easy enough to be 7 hexes away from the closest enemy unit.  If you lose initiative, dropping back to be at 9 hexes still gives your forces medium range without losing your spotter to enemy fire, which is generally what happens if you get closer.

Agreed on the initiative issue, but to guarantee yourself position you need to win initiative on your opponent as well. Otherwise you could very well find yourself facing shorter ranges. Good for the rest of your lance, poor for the spotter. Better to be prepared than to assume the Random Number God favors you. Additonally, at 9 hexes your opponent is equally likely to be in middle range of your spotter. I'd rather be able to squeeze to close range and bring whole new classes of weapons to bear than to have to dance around losing much of the advantage of C3. A smart 55-tonner can stay alive for a turn or two against enemy fire without C3, it sure as all hell can do it with C3 and iJJs.

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Problem being, his ECM Carrier is likely a 3/5 100 ton armor slab, and your spotter is a 55 ton XL engined skirmisher.  Also, his 3/5 100 ton armor slab is probably chilling right next to the rest of it's lance, while your skirmisher is out ahead of your force to spot. 

In which case your opponent has already lost. When your opponent already has a huge range modifier advantage on you by benefit of C3, there is no merit to keeping all of your mechs in a little 12 hex bubble moving at 3/5. One of the first rules of fighting C3 networks is to get your ECM inside of your opponents lines. Mobility is key. Having some heavy assaults can increase survivability, but firepower for firepwoer the C3 lance would win nearly every time by virtue of simply hitting far more often, even if they don't have as much actual firepower.

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C³ is very popular on MRM units.  It really shouldn't be phrased the other way.  C³ makes MRMs suck less.  MRMs don't do anything that C³ can't already do.  With their max range of 15, C³ on MRMs is a little silly, as your gunline has to be at Gauss medium range to even have a chance to hit.  There's really no need for a dedicated spotter in a MRM C³ lance.  A spotter moving rapidly ahead of a MRM lance just quickly outruns the missiles it's spotting for.   It's better to just move the whole lance in a loose formation so that they can give supporting fire to each other at point-blank range. 

Not true at all. MRMs provide more punch for their size than almost any other weapon. They just have a pesky +1 modifier (manageable), and terrible range brackets. A very viable strategy is to use a mobile, MRM-heavy C3 lance packed to the brim with much higher damage potential than the OpFor can replicate with accuracy and using the C3 advantage to brute-force those same MRMs into an accurate bracket. It's a different type of C3 strategy than is typically used, but it's perfectly usable, and in terrain-heavier maps, often preferable to the traditional long-range strategy you describe.

Now, all that being said, I am going to say somethign you almost never hear on the internet: you've convinced me. While I still maintain all of my above points, as well as the point that Snubbies are far-from-ideal for C3, in the specific case of the Yao Lien, I've been wooed over to your side. Crunching the numbers, and given the way it's designed to be used, it isn't easy to fit much else weapons-wise on the Yao Lien that would function at least as well without changing any of the fundamental aspects of the design (Engine, Switch to Standard JJs, etc). As such, I'm conceding that the Yao Lien works best, given the rest of its design profiel, with Snubbies.  Bravo, MadCap, ya got me to admit to being wrong about something. I'm never going to hear the end of it  ;)
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MadCapellan

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #63 on: 10 February 2011, 11:46:39 »
Nah, don't sweat it.  We're discussing things for the purpose of greater understanding, not flaming each other for props.  If we've both learned something, then we win.  ;)

IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #64 on: 10 February 2011, 12:01:43 »
Agreed on all points. Besides, this is two huge discussions we've had in the past week, and I'd like to think that if nothing else, we both made some very legitimate points in both that will be both relevant and enlightening to anyone else patient/bored enough to read them  :)
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GespenstM

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #65 on: 11 February 2011, 07:11:36 »
TRO 3085 restored my interest in the game, and did so with some 'Mechs you might find very... average.

The TDR-10M Thunderbolt is easily my favorite, as it takes the design concept behind the aging TMP-3M (which had problems with targets beyond 3 hexes... you should see a TMP try to fight a ERML-laden BHKU Blackhawk Omni sometime, not pretty) and fixes its worst flaws. It does this by having no meaningful long range attack, but it's excellent within medium ranges.

After that, the SKW-2F Shockwave was very impressive to me. It offers a versatile heavy striking platform at a reasonable BV cost, and looks cool. It doesn't do anything amazingly special, but it has a reasonable weapons array and can do a lot of damage up close, helping us get over our over-abundance of Light Gauss with no close range punch to finish the job.

Then the ARC-9M Archer rounds out the machines I'm really fond of. Yes, I'm aware it's less durable than the ARC-4M or -8M, and its effective weapons range goes down a little... but it offers a new option we didn't have before. If you like the -4M or -8M, great! They're still available and still good machines. The -9M gives us a version that trades a little durability for the ability to pick out even better firing spots and disengage quickly if someone goes after it. To me, that trade-off is worth making and I prefer the -9M over the other versions (even while conceding they are still good 'Mechs and worth playing).

After that... Kopis BA and Longinus Magnetic BA fill out some real gaps in FWL-s infantry roles, and this has done a lot to revolutionize my forces.

Edit: JPArbiter mentioned the BNC-3Mr Banshee as well, and I have to agree. It is a boring design, but it is effective, intuitive and obvious, and should have been done back in 3050 (well, with regular MLs replacing the ERMLs, I suppose). It makes sense and adds some real 'zombie' to FWL-s forces. The GST-10 Ghost may also rise to some prominence at this rate, as our supply of Anvils presumably falls...
« Last Edit: 11 February 2011, 07:15:43 by GespenstM »

IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #66 on: 11 February 2011, 09:14:43 »
I can get on board with most of those pretty well. The Kopis especially is downright devastating in defensive engagements. The Shockwave is also a very solid, dependable design. It's arguably the best of the "Walking RAC/5" designs that have been so prevalent lately, and the one I use most often.

The only one I'd argue with is the Ghost. The thing is honestly pretty terrible. Very low on firepower. I've not used one in an actual battle yet, but I can't justify such a low damage output unless I'm running a mobile sparring force, trying to plink enemies to death from a distance to buy time for my other forces.
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MadCapellan

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #67 on: 11 February 2011, 10:32:24 »
The Kopis is probably one of my favorite Battle Armor designs.  A squad of them put Ontos to shame. (Ontos can't fire from the third floor of an office building!)

The stock Ghost is pretty terrible, but the Federated Suns first stealth 'Mech was pretty terrible as well (stealth Stealth).  It's real bad, but it's effectively a technology testbed.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #68 on: 11 February 2011, 10:33:52 »
The stock Ghost is pretty terrible, but the Federated Suns first stealth 'Mech was pretty terrible as well (stealth Stealth).  It's real bad, but it's effectively a technology testbed.

Aw, I like the Stealth Stealth. It's the only Stealth that can do damage past twelve hexes.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #69 on: 11 February 2011, 11:52:21 »
Aw, I like the Stealth Stealth. It's the only Stealth that can do damage past twelve hexes.

Not true!

You can do a 14-hex charge with the regular Stealth!

 :D
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IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #70 on: 11 February 2011, 11:57:54 »
And likely do more damage than you would from it's weapons!  [rockon]
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #71 on: 11 February 2011, 12:03:56 »
And likely do more damage than you would from it's weapons!  [rockon]

Ain't no likely about it. A 13-hex charge will do, IIRC, 52 points of damage, compared to 26 for a baseline Stealth alphaing and hitting with every SRM.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #72 on: 11 February 2011, 12:05:57 »
Plus 10 points of fisty abuse.
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3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #73 on: 11 February 2011, 12:06:29 »
Plus 10 points of fisty abuse.

That's kind of between you and the Stealth, Kit.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #74 on: 11 February 2011, 12:11:36 »
That's kind of between you and the Stealth, Kit.

Well, with this internet generation....
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IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #75 on: 11 February 2011, 13:41:03 »
This has gotten extremely uncomfortable.....  ;)
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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #76 on: 11 February 2011, 14:34:43 »
This has gotten extremely uncomfortable.....  ;)

Imagine how Kit and the Stealth feel!
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IndyRI

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #77 on: 11 February 2011, 15:08:03 »
Apparently pretty good..... :o
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #78 on: 11 February 2011, 15:26:25 »
It's a very one-sided relationship. I literally use the Stealth.
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GespenstM

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #79 on: 11 February 2011, 19:56:59 »
IndyRI: The Ghost isn't as bad as it seems, once you realize it has some nice traits. Carrying MMLs lets it use Inferno SRMs, giving it some value in hunting battle armor, infantry, and tanks. This isn't a great use of it, but it's one thing it can do.

Plus with the Anvil stocks in decline (not gone, but we're not getting any replacements)... FWL-s relies on the Bloodhound B2-HND and the Ghost for most of its ECM duties. The Grand Titan N11M helps with this somewhat, as does the TDR-11SE Thunderbolt, but the Ghost has its value simply because it's one more machine that can fill this role.

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Re: Favorite Factional Goodies from 3085
« Reply #80 on: 14 February 2011, 09:47:17 »
Well from a faction perspective it makes a certain amount of sense due to the need for a quick-response ECM carrier in the former FWL. It's just the weapons make-up I'm not thrilled about. Infernos are nice with the MMLs, but to get them into range you risk exposing yourself to the minimum range on your Light PPCs, as well as mitigating the usefulness of your stealth armor. If the LPPCs were switched out for, say, an extra ML and upgrading the MMLs to 7 tubes, you'd even have space left over for either additional weapons or extra electronics. Or, on the reverse side, you could convert the MML 3s to LRMs and drop the laser, and play around with a long-range plinking sniper. As it is though, the Ghost just lacks the ability to play any actual role. It's a generalist without the durability or utlity to be a good trooper. If it had good flavor to it it'd be alright, but as it stands, it's kind of boring, which is the worst crime a mech can commit.
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