The Federated Commonwealth -- a house not-divided...

[Lore]

I was thinking about this on the train-ride to work this morning.

Basically, it amounts to a simple query regarding whether the joint Houses of Steiner and Davion -- and the resultant Federated Commonwealth -- ever truly enjoyed a period of cooperative peace, stability, and respect between its disparate halves?

It's been a long while since I've read the most relevant material pertaining to the subject of the FedCom, but I just can't recall any particular instances that would support this.

Discuss.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Well, the 3040s treated them okay. Still, I think that the real problem the FC had was not external, and not even internal, but right at the top. Had the F-C stayed as a mutual aid, economic, research and military treaty it would probably still be around. But when you try to push two people who have very different cultural values together in to one cohesive state despite there being very little intermixing, historically or currently, you just took it too far and the whole thing was doomed.

[Jaim Magnus]

Yes, it would have been more successful as the Federated Commonwealth Alliance, an economic and military alliance meant to ease the burden of war.

The Federated Commonwealth and the creation of House Steiner-Davion was probably a mistake.  Of course part of that was the pressure of the Clan invasion.  Had that not happened, who knows.

[Paladin1]

Yes, it would have been more successful as the Federated Commonwealth Alliance, an economic and military alliance meant to ease the burden of war.

The Federated Commonwealth and the creation of House Steiner-Davion was probably a mistake.  Of course part of that was the pressure of the Clan invasion.  Had that not happened, who knows.

I have to disagree here, when the FedCom was formed and House S-D was created, the end was set in stone.  I think that the Clan Invasion helped speed the process along, but it was doomed to failure from the start.  Better to be an economic and military alliance as you mentioned than trying to force two realms to become one.  That's just not going to fly.

[Niopsian]

I think the greatest blow was that they never finalized how the damn thing was going to work. Even into the late 3040s the design of the unified superstate government was still in committee. Hanse and Melissa both believed they had plenty of time to smooth things over, and I suspect they may have even intentionally dragged things out in order to placate anti-union hotheads on both sides.

Unfortunately, the Clan invasion messed up their time table and then Hanse and Melissa both met premature ends, leaving Victor with a ramshackle structure from which to herd two entirely different tribes of cats.

[Moonsword]

And not much skill in doing it.

[Traecer Revenant]

I think the greatest blow was that they never finalized how the damn thing was going to work. Even into the late 3040s the design of the unified superstate government was still in committee. Hanse and Melissa both believed they had plenty of time to smooth things over, and I suspect they may have even intentionally dragged things out in order to placate anti-union hotheads on both sides.

Unfortunately, the Clan invasion messed up their time table and then Hanse and Melissa both met premature ends, leaving Victor with a ramshackle structure from which to herd two entirely different tribes of cats.

This!

Plus, if not for the Clan Invasion, I think Hanse would have eventually finished off the Capellans and forced House Marik into some sort of non-aggression/free trade style treaty, opening up tons of new markets for Lyrans to sells stuffs.  Given fewer enemies and extra money love for the Lyrans, the Steiners would have come around.  It simply would have been good business!  :D

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

All things that could be easily accomplished with the original F-C Alliance.

[Traecer Revenant]

All things that could be easily accomplished with the original F-C Alliance.

Yeah, OK, This! too.  Hail Caesar!

[Niopsian]

And not much skill in doing it.

Even if someone were the world's best cat herder, would anyone be able to tell? ;D

This!

Plus, if not for the Clan Invasion, I think Hanse would have eventually finished off the Capellans and forced House Marik into some sort of non-aggression/free trade style treaty, opening up tons of new markets for Lyrans to sells stuffs.  Given fewer enemies and extra money love for the Lyrans, the Steiners would have come around.  It simply would have been good business!  :D

Honestly, I think Hanse was done. He'd already decided to play detente with Theodore by posting Victor to Trellwan as a mirror to Hohiro's assignment to Turtle Bay. He had a quiescent border with House Marik and Romano was busy running the CapCon into the ground for him. 3039 taught him that as good as he is, he can still be outfoxed. And he knows Myndo Waterly is waiting for an opportunity to mess with him.

Better to sit back, let the alliance cement into place and focus on preparing Victor for the task ahead.

Putting aside the Clans or scheming matricidal children, had Hanse died in 3052 I think Melissa could have successfully ruled both nations for a long, long time.

[Moonsword]

I'm inclined to agree, although even without the Clans, there would have been some issues.  These are mostly spelled "Skye" but there are some other trouble spots.  Inevitably, for example, the Capellans and/or Taurians are going to get restive.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

[Niopsian]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

"My love, I give you the Dieron Military District!"?

It probably would have worked. With Xiang and Mallory as deeply embedded in the Mask as they were, they could probably hamstring the Liao/Davion front. They'd still need to lop off a few CapCon and FWL worlds to make an effective corridor between the LC and FS though.

[Moonsword]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

I'm inclined to think you're right but Hanse had his reasons for knocking Max down a few pegs.

[Stormlion1]

If there had been no Clan Invasion or Comstar interference, its possible the FedCom could have gotten over its growing pains, it really would have taken the survival of Hanse and Melissa into the 3060's and possibly a successful invasion and assimilation of the rest of the CapCon but it could have been done. Once that was completed It would have been almost a given that the FedCom could have made the FWL bend knee, particulary if throwing out a offer of Alliance through marriage was thrown on the table backed by threat of invasion. As long as the victorys kept rolling in, the FedCom would have endured, but if there were to many defeats it would have failed. The FedCom for it to have survived required it to get over its teething pains quickly.

[Traecer Revenant]

If there had been no Clan Invasion or Comstar interference, its possible the FedCom could have gotten over its growing pains, it really would have taken the survival of Hanse and Melissa into the 3060's and possibly a successful invasion and assimilation of the rest of the CapCon but it could have been done. Once that was completed It would have been almost a given that the FedCom could have made the FWL bend knee, particulary if throwing out a offer of Alliance through marriage was thrown on the table backed by threat of invasion. As long as the victorys kept rolling in, the FedCom would have endured, but if there were to many defeats it would have failed. The FedCom for it to have survived required it to get over its teething pains quickly.

Someone agrees with me!   [rockon]

Doesn't feel as good as eating at Arby's, but I'll take it!  ;D

(And yeah, I completely agree that the FedCom's existence would end up relying entirely on continuing victories.)

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

I'm inclined to think you're right but Hanse had his reasons for knocking Max down a few pegs.

Pursing a personal vendetta in favor of taking out a shared foe is not going to cement you any alliances.

[Moonsword]

I didn't say it was.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

"My love, I give you the Dieron Military District!"?

It probably would have worked. With Xiang and Mallory as deeply embedded in the Mask as they were, they could probably hamstring the Liao/Davion front. They'd still need to lop off a few CapCon and FWL worlds to make an effective corridor between the LC and FS though.

Why stop at Dieron?  They should be able to drive at least through the Benjamin District.

[Stormlion1]

Hanse could be said to have had a vendetta against both Takashi and Max, while Max might have kidnapped and tried to replace Hanse, The Combine did kill his brother.

[Moonsword]

He didn't have a traitor on that March, though, or the intelligence resources in place against the Combine.  Vengeance was part of it but the simple fact is the opportunity really wasn't there for moving against the Combine in as decisive a fashion.

[Niopsian]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

"My love, I give you the Dieron Military District!"?

It probably would have worked. With Xiang and Mallory as deeply embedded in the Mask as they were, they could probably hamstring the Liao/Davion front. They'd still need to lop off a few CapCon and FWL worlds to make an effective corridor between the LC and FS though.

Why stop at Dieron?  They should be able to drive at least through the Benjamin District.

I figure Myndo would freak and get her interdiction scheming going earlier if it looked like Hanse was going to gut the Combine.

Maybe instead of trying to take an entire Military District we'd see a general rollback of the entire border on both fronts, with Dieron as the hinge?

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

If Hanse had gone after the Combine, the 4th War might have actually been interesting. Can't have that.

[Lore]

I think the greatest blow was that they never finalized how the damn thing was going to work. Even into the late 3040s the design of the unified superstate government was still in committee. Hanse and Melissa both believed they had plenty of time to smooth things over, and I suspect they may have even intentionally dragged things out in order to placate anti-union hotheads on both sides.

Ultimately, considering the overall grand scope of the union, I would've thought political, military, and economic concerns should have been firmly established long before the "sealing of the deal" with the marriage between Hanse and Melissa.

Granted, no amount of strategic foresight re: the union would've prevented all the types of problems the creation of the FedCom would later bring. But I think, had certain strategies and counter-strategies for political, military, and/or economic disruption been in place, the feeling of "making it up as we go" and having serious problems developing while decision-makers sought the best possible advice about how to proceed, could've been slightly negated.

[Stormlion1]

The problem was that while the military arm had been mostly integrated, the civilian agencys were not even halfway there. It didn't help that the FedCom had two seperate capitols that took what, weeks to travel between and had their own seperate organizations that focused on its own problems and not the problems of the whole. Favoritism was a problem that was bound to come up.

[Niopsian]

The problem was that while the military arm had been mostly integrated, the civilian agencys were not even halfway there. It didn't help that the FedCom had two seperate capitols that took what, weeks to travel between and had their own seperate organizations that focused on its own problems and not the problems of the whole. Favoritism was a problem that was bound to come up.

Yeah, I've often wondered what would have happened had Hanse stationed about 10 regiments on New Earth and declared it the future capital of the Federated Commonwealth.

Probably a mini-Jihad thirty years ahead of schedule.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I'd take Freedom myself. Already a major center for information and logistics, but also the first world to throw the Terran Alliance off. It's historical like that.

[Lore]

The problem was that while the military arm had been mostly integrated, the civilian agencys were not even halfway there. It didn't help that the FedCom had two seperate capitols that took what, weeks to travel between and had their own seperate organizations that focused on its own problems and not the problems of the whole. Favoritism was a problem that was bound to come up.

Yeah, I've often wondered what would have happened had Hanse stationed about 10 regiments on New Earth and declared it the future capital of the Federated Commonwealth.

Probably a mini-Jihad thirty years ahead of schedule.

I'm sure ComStar would've been jumping for joy once that news hit the HPG network.

I wonder, though, whether this would've prompted Tiepolo to abandon his plan to portray ComStar as neutral entity focused solely on the promotion of peace?

[Stormfury]

For all their complaints about not getting a chance to "punish" the Draconis Combine, the Lyran Commonwealth very much did just that during the Fourth Succession War- at the same time as Hanse was ravaging the Capellan Confederation, the Lyrans were belting the hell out of the Combine.

Hanse had Justin and Alex. Katrina had Takashi Kurita. Due to his focus on the Wolf Dragoons and Theodore's marginalisation in the DCMS, the Lyrans were able to capture fifty worlds. That they were then forced to turn around and release most of those gains to the Free Rasalhague Republic is largely irrelevant.

They had another go at it in the War of 3039, but this time Takashi wasn't holding all the cards and the Lyrans were quite steadfast in their refusal to see reason and/or co-ordinate with the AFFS. Even so only minor changes would have seen a drastically different result- usesless as Nondi Steiner was, things were still bubbling along quite nicely for the Lyrans under her command. With even the slightest of differences, the War of 3039 would have been as devastating as the Fourth Succession War.

Unfortunately, where it all broke down was in Lyran resistance to the merger, be it military or otherwise. Katherine Steiner-Davion and her antics are probably the most visible example, but it was endemic.

[Drop Bear]

Try this everything goes as written up to Hanse's hart attack, someone's in the room or just outside in the anti chamber and able to respond, the Doc's tell him the next one will almost certainly kill him, he abdicates to Victor who has a working set of training wheels (instead of just one). he gets his head screwed on strait and cements his Davion credentials wile the Press agents remind everyone of his Stinerness.

a few years later the Retired Hanes is accompanying his wife on a state visit the official party narrowly escapes a close encounter with some exploding flower pots but are injured, the trauma triggers a fatal coronary. Victor and his Boys get enough for probable cause and transfer all Suns badged units currently in the LC to the Clan Front and recall the bulk of LC units in the Suns with orders to Curb Stomp the Free Sykeos on the way home with the help of any Fed-Com Branded units on hand. the Fed Rats say "Thank you our Lyran Friends for avenging our Prince!" the Elsies say "Thanks our Fedie Buddies for keeping the falcons behind the Cordon wile we cleaned house" Victor creates a new Unit Citation called "The Hammer of Justice" and awards it to those units that helped punish the guilty. a couple of rounds of Flags, Bunting, Brass Bands and Speeches later and the FC is on it's way to permanency.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Usually I retire my Hanes when I accidentally step on one leg as I'm putting them on during my escape and tear a seam out.

[Grim_Reaper]

Hanse could be said to have had a vendetta against both Takashi and Max, while Max might have kidnapped and tried to replace Hanse, The Combine did kill his brother.

true but at least his brothers death was on the Battlefield which is somewhat less personal then being kidnapped to be replaced. it was teh destruction of a man life to perform that replacement however that Hanse gave as a reason for why he felt he had to break the Cap Con

He didn't have a traitor on that March, though, or the intelligence resources in place against the Combine.  Vengeance was part of it but the simple fact is the opportunity really wasn't there for moving against the Combine in as decisive a fashion.

yes in taking the Cap Con he was managing to kill 2 birds with one stone, one to break teh Cap Con and 2 to 'clean house' in the Capellean March

there may have been an advantage against the Combine at the time but it was a development Hanse wasnt preparing to take advantage of as it came up just before, namely the switching of the Wolf Dragoons to his own service away from the Combine following the mauling the WDs gave the forces along that border.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yeah, I've often wondered what would have happened had Hanse stationed about 10 regiments on New Earth and declared it the future capital of the Federated Commonwealth.

Probably a mini-Jihad thirty years ahead of schedule.

That's another reason taking the Dracs down first would be good.  You can make Dieron the new capital.

[MadCapellan]

I think the primary failure of the Federated Commonwealth came from a rushed integration and a failure politically to sell the changes being made on the ground.  A lot of sources from the FedCom era paint a picture of AFFS officers being assigned to Lyran units and essentially saying "it's cute that you chaps think you're a military, but I'm going to have to show you how to run things proper".  Lyran military practices, even ones that worked like lightning companies, were never adopted in the FedSuns and were washed away in the rush to mimick the AFFS as closely as possible.  The combination of this with Hanse's political domination of Melissa is what I think leads many fans to think FedCom=FedSuns. 

On the flipside, for the entirety of the true FedCom era, Suns military industry was basically sidelined in favor of the Lyran half.  Considering the Clan invasion, you would think it would have been wise to expand Davion factory production, but oh-no!  While all the Federated Suns brought to the table was the Caesar, Penetrator and a bunch of clunkers (Watchman!  Fireball!), meanwhile, the Lyrans are pounding out great 'Mech design after great 'Mech design, often one's provided by Crucians.  Hanse Davion calls for a Clan-Killer Heavy?  Lyrans make it.  Davion troops find plans for an incredible Assault 'Mech?  Lyrans build it.  There was pretty easily a lot of resentment to go around.  Toss in a milktoast leader like Victor and it was pretty easy to see how Katherine could manipulate those feelings to her own advantage.

[Moonsword]

Yeah.  GM and Achernar kind of took it in the shorts sometimes, although to be fair, Achernar wasn't really interested in innovating at the time aside from the Argus from what I've read.  And the AFFS would have benefited from a long, hard look at Lyran logistical practices.

[Traecer Revenant]

Yeah.  GM and Achernar kind of took it in the shorts sometimes, although to be fair, Achernar wasn't really interested in innovating at the time aside from the Argus from what I've read.  And the AFFS would have benefited from a long, hard look at Lyran logistical practices.

When it's planes in the sky /
For a chain of supply /
That's logistics
 ;D

[Moonsword]

*shakes head, chuckling*

Anyway, they're still sorting their logistics messes out in the AFFS.

[Lore]

I think the primary failure of the Federated Commonwealth came from a rushed integration and a failure politically to sell the changes being made on the ground.

I've always wondered how the propaganda machine worked with that. Overexposure via paid-political advertising, maybe? Or, perhaps, just a case of Hanse and/or Melissa enduring an exhausting tour-schedule presenting their case for unification across the various political capitals and sub-capitals throughout both the Suns and the Commonwealth?

Or maybe it was simply a matter of having a corps of political journalist favourable to the joining of the two realms, sent out to answer questions and spread the word... so to speak.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

FS, LC and especially FWL propaganda is probably a lot like the propaganda we get here in the US, due to similar media structure. While all are geographically disparate, it seems like a few major companies dominate the news landscape.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

Was INN around at the time?

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I believe INN was a Star League-era idea. Either way, ComStar was supposed to not interfere wit the material, so Vic couldn't just ask them to run fake stories or whatever lest they turn it in to another ComStar News Service.

[Lore]

I believe INN was a Star League-era idea. Either way, ComStar was supposed to not interfere wit the material, so Vic couldn't just ask them to run fake stories or whatever lest they turn it in to another ComStar News Service.

Especially during the Tiepolo-era, I suppose.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Now I KNOW it wasn't around then, as it was a product of post-Schism C*.

[Lore]

Aye.

I just meant that ComStar would've likely had to have played a neutral line re: promotion of the coming union between the Suns and the Commonwealth, during the Tiepolo-era.

[Stormlion1]

I always wondered what kind of reaction the average citizen had when the FedCom was announced, not the Mechwarriors, Generals, politicians, Company heads, or Nobles, but the baker, carpenter, or the assassin hiding in plain sight?

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

"Whatevs."

[Traecer Revenant]

I always wondered what kind of reaction the average citizen had when the FedCom was announced, not the Mechwarriors, Generals, politicians, Company heads, or Nobles, but the baker, carpenter, or the assassin hiding in plain sight?

Assassin [rubbing hands together gleefully]:  "Business is about to boom!"

[Stormfury]

Lyran military practices, even ones that worked like lightning companies, were never adopted in the FedSuns and were washed away in the rush to mimick the AFFS as closely as possible.

On the other hand, the Lyran innovations were to correct problems they had with their armed forces... deficiencies the AFFS did not share. The AFFS' need for Lightning Companies was minimal at best considering their focus on flexible battle lines and lighter, faster force composition.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing inherently wrong with your force skewing in to the Heavy range that causes disaster to spontaneously manifest, especially on a modern battlefield, with XL engines and MASC. Look at units like the 3rd Lyran, who throw down with Clanners while themselves following Zell and win as much as they lose.

The problem remains in the mid-level officer corps and had for some time. The solution was to push on with Katrina Steiner's house-cleaning and get more Caesar Steiners, Paul Zardettos and Harrison Von Frischs in place before you decide the entire LCAF arsenal needs replaced.

[Moonsword]

In theory, the AFFS could've helped with the officer corps.  And no, there's not anything wrong with a heavy-leaning force, as long as appropriate supporting elements are maintained and operational.  That's somewhere the LCAF sometimes fell down, although with the Wolfhound becoming more common as well as the Savannah Master, they were getting better at it.

[Stormfury]

Not now, no. But back when only  mediums and lights were in the useful 5/8+ category, the ponderousness of the LCAF really hurt, and is what lead to the formation of those Lightning Companies in the first place. When your military is already built around swift machines, having a Lighning company is pretty redundant.

The larger issue with clearing out the officer corps is that it was not percieved as a Steiner-begun program, but something the Suns was responsible for.

[Moonsword]

The Ostol and Ostroc beg to differ, although they're rare.

The perception of the officer clean up was an issue, but do note that the actual initiatives go back to Katrina Steiner before the alliance - there's some discussion of it in the old 3025 handbook.  The AFFS were just such gits about it that they caused a lot of resentment.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Well, having the guy who ran the whole AFFC be named "Davion" is going to create some dissent when he's removing officers in LCAF commands, yeah.

[Stormfury]

As would having a Steiner, the Archon's sister, in command of the AFFS.

Not to mention the fact that Morgan Hasek-Davion wasn't really a Davion in any case, and was the best candidate for the job regardless.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Hence, why integrating the command structure completely so early and giving it a single guy at it's head was another bad idea, yes.

Until you hit a point where you had a single head of state who was from both families and could get someone like an Acabee Zardetto, who is from a Lyran military family and went to the Nagelring and then came up through the 3rd Crucis Lancers, you were asking for some shit to start by integrating.