The Federated Commonwealth -- a house not-divided...

[Lore]

I was thinking about this on the train-ride to work this morning.

Basically, it amounts to a simple query regarding whether the joint Houses of Steiner and Davion -- and the resultant Federated Commonwealth -- ever truly enjoyed a period of cooperative peace, stability, and respect between its disparate halves?

It's been a long while since I've read the most relevant material pertaining to the subject of the FedCom, but I just can't recall any particular instances that would support this.

Discuss.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Well, the 3040s treated them okay. Still, I think that the real problem the FC had was not external, and not even internal, but right at the top. Had the F-C stayed as a mutual aid, economic, research and military treaty it would probably still be around. But when you try to push two people who have very different cultural values together in to one cohesive state despite there being very little intermixing, historically or currently, you just took it too far and the whole thing was doomed.

[Jaim Magnus]

Yes, it would have been more successful as the Federated Commonwealth Alliance, an economic and military alliance meant to ease the burden of war.

The Federated Commonwealth and the creation of House Steiner-Davion was probably a mistake.  Of course part of that was the pressure of the Clan invasion.  Had that not happened, who knows.

[Paladin1]

Yes, it would have been more successful as the Federated Commonwealth Alliance, an economic and military alliance meant to ease the burden of war.

The Federated Commonwealth and the creation of House Steiner-Davion was probably a mistake.  Of course part of that was the pressure of the Clan invasion.  Had that not happened, who knows.

I have to disagree here, when the FedCom was formed and House S-D was created, the end was set in stone.  I think that the Clan Invasion helped speed the process along, but it was doomed to failure from the start.  Better to be an economic and military alliance as you mentioned than trying to force two realms to become one.  That's just not going to fly.

[Niopsian]

I think the greatest blow was that they never finalized how the damn thing was going to work. Even into the late 3040s the design of the unified superstate government was still in committee. Hanse and Melissa both believed they had plenty of time to smooth things over, and I suspect they may have even intentionally dragged things out in order to placate anti-union hotheads on both sides.

Unfortunately, the Clan invasion messed up their time table and then Hanse and Melissa both met premature ends, leaving Victor with a ramshackle structure from which to herd two entirely different tribes of cats.

[Moonsword]

And not much skill in doing it.

[Traecer Revenant]

I think the greatest blow was that they never finalized how the damn thing was going to work. Even into the late 3040s the design of the unified superstate government was still in committee. Hanse and Melissa both believed they had plenty of time to smooth things over, and I suspect they may have even intentionally dragged things out in order to placate anti-union hotheads on both sides.

Unfortunately, the Clan invasion messed up their time table and then Hanse and Melissa both met premature ends, leaving Victor with a ramshackle structure from which to herd two entirely different tribes of cats.

This!

Plus, if not for the Clan Invasion, I think Hanse would have eventually finished off the Capellans and forced House Marik into some sort of non-aggression/free trade style treaty, opening up tons of new markets for Lyrans to sells stuffs.  Given fewer enemies and extra money love for the Lyrans, the Steiners would have come around.  It simply would have been good business!  :D

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

All things that could be easily accomplished with the original F-C Alliance.

[Traecer Revenant]

All things that could be easily accomplished with the original F-C Alliance.

Yeah, OK, This! too.  Hail Caesar!

[Niopsian]

And not much skill in doing it.

Even if someone were the world's best cat herder, would anyone be able to tell? ;D

This!

Plus, if not for the Clan Invasion, I think Hanse would have eventually finished off the Capellans and forced House Marik into some sort of non-aggression/free trade style treaty, opening up tons of new markets for Lyrans to sells stuffs.  Given fewer enemies and extra money love for the Lyrans, the Steiners would have come around.  It simply would have been good business!  :D

Honestly, I think Hanse was done. He'd already decided to play detente with Theodore by posting Victor to Trellwan as a mirror to Hohiro's assignment to Turtle Bay. He had a quiescent border with House Marik and Romano was busy running the CapCon into the ground for him. 3039 taught him that as good as he is, he can still be outfoxed. And he knows Myndo Waterly is waiting for an opportunity to mess with him.

Better to sit back, let the alliance cement into place and focus on preparing Victor for the task ahead.

Putting aside the Clans or scheming matricidal children, had Hanse died in 3052 I think Melissa could have successfully ruled both nations for a long, long time.

[Moonsword]

I'm inclined to agree, although even without the Clans, there would have been some issues.  These are mostly spelled "Skye" but there are some other trouble spots.  Inevitably, for example, the Capellans and/or Taurians are going to get restive.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

[Niopsian]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

"My love, I give you the Dieron Military District!"?

It probably would have worked. With Xiang and Mallory as deeply embedded in the Mask as they were, they could probably hamstring the Liao/Davion front. They'd still need to lop off a few CapCon and FWL worlds to make an effective corridor between the LC and FS though.

[Moonsword]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

I'm inclined to think you're right but Hanse had his reasons for knocking Max down a few pegs.

[Stormlion1]

If there had been no Clan Invasion or Comstar interference, its possible the FedCom could have gotten over its growing pains, it really would have taken the survival of Hanse and Melissa into the 3060's and possibly a successful invasion and assimilation of the rest of the CapCon but it could have been done. Once that was completed It would have been almost a given that the FedCom could have made the FWL bend knee, particulary if throwing out a offer of Alliance through marriage was thrown on the table backed by threat of invasion. As long as the victorys kept rolling in, the FedCom would have endured, but if there were to many defeats it would have failed. The FedCom for it to have survived required it to get over its teething pains quickly.

[Traecer Revenant]

If there had been no Clan Invasion or Comstar interference, its possible the FedCom could have gotten over its growing pains, it really would have taken the survival of Hanse and Melissa into the 3060's and possibly a successful invasion and assimilation of the rest of the CapCon but it could have been done. Once that was completed It would have been almost a given that the FedCom could have made the FWL bend knee, particulary if throwing out a offer of Alliance through marriage was thrown on the table backed by threat of invasion. As long as the victorys kept rolling in, the FedCom would have endured, but if there were to many defeats it would have failed. The FedCom for it to have survived required it to get over its teething pains quickly.

Someone agrees with me!   [rockon]

Doesn't feel as good as eating at Arby's, but I'll take it!  ;D

(And yeah, I completely agree that the FedCom's existence would end up relying entirely on continuing victories.)

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

I'm inclined to think you're right but Hanse had his reasons for knocking Max down a few pegs.

Pursing a personal vendetta in favor of taking out a shared foe is not going to cement you any alliances.

[Moonsword]

I didn't say it was.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

"My love, I give you the Dieron Military District!"?

It probably would have worked. With Xiang and Mallory as deeply embedded in the Mask as they were, they could probably hamstring the Liao/Davion front. They'd still need to lop off a few CapCon and FWL worlds to make an effective corridor between the LC and FS though.

Why stop at Dieron?  They should be able to drive at least through the Benjamin District.

[Stormlion1]

Hanse could be said to have had a vendetta against both Takashi and Max, while Max might have kidnapped and tried to replace Hanse, The Combine did kill his brother.

[Moonsword]

He didn't have a traitor on that March, though, or the intelligence resources in place against the Combine.  Vengeance was part of it but the simple fact is the opportunity really wasn't there for moving against the Combine in as decisive a fashion.

[Niopsian]

I think it would have worked better if they'd attacked Kurita.  The Snakes are the old, scary foe of both.  Taking down the Dragon as their first joint op would have cemented the cooperation better than attacking a state that was less threat to the suns and no threat to the Elsies.

"My love, I give you the Dieron Military District!"?

It probably would have worked. With Xiang and Mallory as deeply embedded in the Mask as they were, they could probably hamstring the Liao/Davion front. They'd still need to lop off a few CapCon and FWL worlds to make an effective corridor between the LC and FS though.

Why stop at Dieron?  They should be able to drive at least through the Benjamin District.

I figure Myndo would freak and get her interdiction scheming going earlier if it looked like Hanse was going to gut the Combine.

Maybe instead of trying to take an entire Military District we'd see a general rollback of the entire border on both fronts, with Dieron as the hinge?

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

If Hanse had gone after the Combine, the 4th War might have actually been interesting. Can't have that.

[Lore]

I think the greatest blow was that they never finalized how the damn thing was going to work. Even into the late 3040s the design of the unified superstate government was still in committee. Hanse and Melissa both believed they had plenty of time to smooth things over, and I suspect they may have even intentionally dragged things out in order to placate anti-union hotheads on both sides.

Ultimately, considering the overall grand scope of the union, I would've thought political, military, and economic concerns should have been firmly established long before the "sealing of the deal" with the marriage between Hanse and Melissa.

Granted, no amount of strategic foresight re: the union would've prevented all the types of problems the creation of the FedCom would later bring. But I think, had certain strategies and counter-strategies for political, military, and/or economic disruption been in place, the feeling of "making it up as we go" and having serious problems developing while decision-makers sought the best possible advice about how to proceed, could've been slightly negated.

[Stormlion1]

The problem was that while the military arm had been mostly integrated, the civilian agencys were not even halfway there. It didn't help that the FedCom had two seperate capitols that took what, weeks to travel between and had their own seperate organizations that focused on its own problems and not the problems of the whole. Favoritism was a problem that was bound to come up.

[Niopsian]

The problem was that while the military arm had been mostly integrated, the civilian agencys were not even halfway there. It didn't help that the FedCom had two seperate capitols that took what, weeks to travel between and had their own seperate organizations that focused on its own problems and not the problems of the whole. Favoritism was a problem that was bound to come up.

Yeah, I've often wondered what would have happened had Hanse stationed about 10 regiments on New Earth and declared it the future capital of the Federated Commonwealth.

Probably a mini-Jihad thirty years ahead of schedule.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

I'd take Freedom myself. Already a major center for information and logistics, but also the first world to throw the Terran Alliance off. It's historical like that.

[Lore]

The problem was that while the military arm had been mostly integrated, the civilian agencys were not even halfway there. It didn't help that the FedCom had two seperate capitols that took what, weeks to travel between and had their own seperate organizations that focused on its own problems and not the problems of the whole. Favoritism was a problem that was bound to come up.

Yeah, I've often wondered what would have happened had Hanse stationed about 10 regiments on New Earth and declared it the future capital of the Federated Commonwealth.

Probably a mini-Jihad thirty years ahead of schedule.

I'm sure ComStar would've been jumping for joy once that news hit the HPG network.

I wonder, though, whether this would've prompted Tiepolo to abandon his plan to portray ComStar as neutral entity focused solely on the promotion of peace?

[Stormfury]

For all their complaints about not getting a chance to "punish" the Draconis Combine, the Lyran Commonwealth very much did just that during the Fourth Succession War- at the same time as Hanse was ravaging the Capellan Confederation, the Lyrans were belting the hell out of the Combine.

Hanse had Justin and Alex. Katrina had Takashi Kurita. Due to his focus on the Wolf Dragoons and Theodore's marginalisation in the DCMS, the Lyrans were able to capture fifty worlds. That they were then forced to turn around and release most of those gains to the Free Rasalhague Republic is largely irrelevant.

They had another go at it in the War of 3039, but this time Takashi wasn't holding all the cards and the Lyrans were quite steadfast in their refusal to see reason and/or co-ordinate with the AFFS. Even so only minor changes would have seen a drastically different result- usesless as Nondi Steiner was, things were still bubbling along quite nicely for the Lyrans under her command. With even the slightest of differences, the War of 3039 would have been as devastating as the Fourth Succession War.

Unfortunately, where it all broke down was in Lyran resistance to the merger, be it military or otherwise. Katherine Steiner-Davion and her antics are probably the most visible example, but it was endemic.

[Drop Bear]

Try this everything goes as written up to Hanse's hart attack, someone's in the room or just outside in the anti chamber and able to respond, the Doc's tell him the next one will almost certainly kill him, he abdicates to Victor who has a working set of training wheels (instead of just one). he gets his head screwed on strait and cements his Davion credentials wile the Press agents remind everyone of his Stinerness.

a few years later the Retired Hanes is accompanying his wife on a state visit the official party narrowly escapes a close encounter with some exploding flower pots but are injured, the trauma triggers a fatal coronary. Victor and his Boys get enough for probable cause and transfer all Suns badged units currently in the LC to the Clan Front and recall the bulk of LC units in the Suns with orders to Curb Stomp the Free Sykeos on the way home with the help of any Fed-Com Branded units on hand. the Fed Rats say "Thank you our Lyran Friends for avenging our Prince!" the Elsies say "Thanks our Fedie Buddies for keeping the falcons behind the Cordon wile we cleaned house" Victor creates a new Unit Citation called "The Hammer of Justice" and awards it to those units that helped punish the guilty. a couple of rounds of Flags, Bunting, Brass Bands and Speeches later and the FC is on it's way to permanency.