Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals

[glitterboy2098]

not to mention the very likely possibility that some of the pathologies he's claiming she has are ones that he himself "identified", or were diagnosed using criteria of his own determination, and aren't part of any official psychological diagnosis system. which would undercut the implied 'expert' aspect of the testimony.

[Cannonshop]

It was amusing watching Haskins wrestle his witness back onto the topic at hand after an hour of digressions, long-winded explanations and sophistry.

"...and thus, why her motivations could not have been strictly due to concerns of needs."  Yamada finished.

everyone at first looked like they were about to relax.

"Your witness."

Seether stood up.  "You've described your methodology in some detail, doctor, I want to put it to the test now with a hypothetical case-please, Ladies and gentlemen, bear with me...would that be okay? if I gave you a blind test of your methods?"

"I believe that will be most informative, Miss Sithers."

she didn't correct his misuse of her rank, indeed, Seether smiled.

"Subject is Twenty seven years old, male, with almost ten years in service, from a working class rural background.  He has the following awards at this time:" she lifted a sheet, "Medal of Valor with Clusters, three times, Wound medals seven times, McKenzie Ground Pounder's medal with V device, Commonwealth Cross with V device four times, Two field promotions of one grade each for actions taken under heavy fire, both later confirmed, Commonwealth Field Award for Gallantry, nine times.  Letter of Recognition of Merit from Clan Jade Falcon three times, Navy Cross Twice...Doctor, what kind of man is this?"

"Can you tell me anything about his life off-duty?" Doctor Yamada asked.

"Our subject has been married once, but has no children." Seether said.

"Given the list of awards, that's not surprising, this is clearly a Dedicated and some would term it courageous soldier." he said.

"Given that, Doctor, how dangerous is this person going to be upon discharge?"

"Well, the list of awards suggests the last ten years have been extremely...violent, the subject must suffer from Traumatic disorders, the intense pace of deployments combined with the suggested lack of proper civil life, separation from family and combat experience, this person is likely a very dangerous soldier who will not adapt to civilian life easily or quickly." he said, "I would recommend in-patient treatment for transition to civilian life, possibly for an indefinite period, lest he become a danger to others."

"alright...with the court's permission? Corpsman Qien Vien, front and center!"

from the back of the room, a young man in LCN Dress Blues came walking...well, maybe not 'young' anymore.  "For the record, ladies and gentlemen...the corpsman here, is a Conscientious objector whose religious faith bars him from performing acts of violence on another human being, or bearing a weapon against another human being.  He won those honors in  part risking his own life to save the lives of civilians and his fellow soldiers."

She returned the Corpsman's salute, "Have a seat over there, Vien, I'll be calling you to the stand in due time."

"Ayeh Mum." 

"My point is, you can only learn so much from a limited dataset.  The Corpsman there voluntarily enlisted and has served with distinction among infantry soldiers in some of the worst fighting of the last ten years." she crossed her arms, "he is a dedicated life-saver, and you're going to tell me that civilians aren't safe in this man's presence?"

Yamada's eyes goggled.

"Doctor, Your long and exhaustive description of your work, left out something pretty fundamental, for getting accurate diagnoses-you have very little time for clinical work, and less time out of the University and into the field.  You also omitted what criteria you would use to declare a patient or subject safe or sane.  It is common to conflate the ability to overcome fear, with dangerous aggression, you forgot that Correlation is not causation, you also did not further prod for additional information, but went straight to a judgement off of an incomplete dataset."

she seemed to grow in her uniform, "HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD did you manage to get a position of respect with such shoddy work??"

She turned to the Tribunal, "The diagnosis of mental disorders is a complex and complicated activity, it requires in-depth understanding of the subject, to understand the underlying causes and how each individual patient reacts to those causes.  right here, we see a degreed professor misjudging someone based on a list of medals and less information than you get from the summary of a child's collector's card!"

she crossed her arms, "Your Honor, and Colonel Haskins?  This 'expert' witness is no expert.  I have worked with better on clearer cases, if Professor Yamada represents the best Terran mental health medicine can deliver in the field of Forensic Psychology then you might want to start putting teams on reviewing unjust and unlawful convictions, or improperly conducted criminal investigations that have failed to snare the actual perpetrators."  she jerked a thumb at the witness box, "THIS guy is a ****** hack in a designer suit...Vien, the files?"

"Ayeh mum."

"My client has graciously signed off-these files, Defense Exhibit M, for 'mental Health', are Elizabeth Ngo's Lyran Commonwealth Medical Corps psychological and mental health treatment records, included as well, are private treatment records dating back to her in-patient period for drug abuse at age eleven...this is what a real forensic psychologist would be asking for."

she laid the discs down on a table in front of the panel.  "everything a real, working, actual expert would have requested is present here...and this is to support my counter-witness's testimony with verifiable actual data."

[LightGuard]

Seether: *Mike Drop*

Can't wait to see the re-direct on this one. Hopefully she gets a re-cross if Colonel Haskins decides to try and salvage this one.

[namar13766]

And if you look behind you, you may catch a glimpse of Stone and Lear's Credibility flying off into the distance, where it probably will never be seen again.

[paulobrito]

How to destroy a pseudo expert - taking notes.

[Artifex]

 :thumbsup:

Yesssssssssss, well done Linda! :popcorn:

[Cannonshop]

"Corpsman Vien, you were assigned to the Marine Complement 3rd Platoon, Company I, LCS Hermann Steiner, Correct?"

"Yes ma'am."

"Are you permitted to discuss your duties with India Company, Corpsman?"

"Yes ma'am. "

Seether waited, "Go on."

"Ma'am, my platoon was specifically assigned to the security role shipboard, and to Prisoner handling and control when deployed off the ship, ma'am."

"And have you been at this long?"

"Define 'long' ma'am?"

"More than two years."

"Yes ma'am." he said.

"And during those two years, did you handle Blakist Prisoners and did you encounter or handle Manei Domini prisoners?"

"I did, ma'am."  He said, and looked ashamed.

"What was your experience and what was the difference between handling standard Word of Blake personnel, and handling Manei Domini?"

"aside from the physical differences?" he asked.

"yes."

"Standard Blakist personnel exhibited few traits that would be distinguished from other POWs, I had to administer treatment to wounded, care for wound treatment, occasionally I would provide them with someone to hear their problems-which were mostly normal people problems, and on occasion, debate theological subjects with them.  Pretty standard stuff, really, most rank-and-file Blakies are pretty normal as long as you don't stumble on their triggers."

"Triggers?"

"They're brainwashed, ma'am." he said, "it could be anything, a pattern of colors or the wrong spoken phrase and the person in front of you would completely shift in their demeanor, behaviours...it took a while for our people to work out what you might call a 'standard package' of things not to say or show them, if a trigger was hit...whoooo..."  he rolled his eyes, "sedation barely worked, I had one patient try to open me up with her fingernails for quoting one passage from the bible."

"would you feel comfortable enlightening the Tribunal what that phrase is?" Seether asked.

"Not without preparations." Vien said firmly, I would not utter those words in front of the press, either, because we don't know how many people planetside might have been exposed to related indoctrination.  Riots, Colonel ma'am, are generally bad for innocent bystanders, and even a lone wolf can kill a lot of innocent people before he's stopped."

"has this happened in your experience before?"

"Yes ma'am." he said.  "Galatea, Skye, Thorin, New Earth, a few other places, the Coventry incident in 3072-the shooter wasn't even a POW, but he'd been a Blakist POW for three months and one of the known triggers was spoken in his presence."

"Could it be anyone?" she asked.

"Yes ma'am." he asserted, "Look, the guys captured a lot of enemy data, but they didn't get all of it.  Commonwealth Medical Corps is working on a means to rehabilitate victims of programming, but it's all theoretical so far, practical applications are..." he shrugged and held his hands open, "We don't have it.  Some of the Jade Falcon docs have tried their methods too-no real success and until a victim is triggered, we don't know who is, and isn't, programmed, just that they're out there, and hearing the wrong words, or seeing the wrong symbol or picture or some pattern of symbols?  will set them off.  We know of around a dozen so far, but it's hit-or-miss, not all POWs were indoctrinated, not everyone who was indoctrinated that way were even formally prisoners."

"So...it's dicey?"

"Very.  Triggered personnel are very hard to restrain and treat, they pose an immediate and if given a chance, lethal threat to everyone within range." he asserted, "They make it very hard to restrain them without lethal force."

"Have you been forced to resort to lethal measures?"

"No ma'am." he said.  "but I have had to treat infantrymen who did have to, after the fact, ma'am...and I had to try to save lives after a triggered civilian set off four kilos of blastex in a hospital."

"You're sure they were triggered?"

"Why would a housewife mother of three have four kilograms of plastic explosive when she went into an emergency room to visit her son, ma'am?"

"Shifting the subject a little, what about Manei Domini? anything specific about them?"

"check the hairline above the temple for small burns." he said, "also look for three milimeter scarring under the hair or on the scalp skin if bald, not all MD's have visible prosthetics, but every cybernetically altered soldier has those burns, and an MRI will show alterations to the prefrontal lobe and frontal cortex, cutting off certain nerve clusters normally active when a person is trying to make a moral decision."

"What do you do when you find one?" she asked.

"Keep him drugged and restrained if possible, because he can be completely reasonable sounding while he's disemboweling an infant." Vien stated, "It's not their fault, this was done to them.  Naval Intelligence, CMC services and our Clan colleagues are working to develop a treatment, but until we have one, all Manei Domini and cybernetically altered personnel are to be considered to be incapable of moral decision making in the same manner as a person with  severe antisocial personality disorder.  In layman's terms, they've been surgically altered to be psychopaths with no moral or ethical restraint, and programmed to subsume their own well-being to that of their 'master', a figure we have not identified.  You can ask the Fedsuns officers present if they have the clearance, some of the work, some of the identifiers, have been shared from that side of the sphere with us."

"Do they have triggers?" she asked.

"Not that we've been able to identify." Vien said.  "They are very difficult patients, if one is conscious enough to tell you what hurts or itches, they're dangerous if not restrained."

"is that universal?" she asked.

"Ma'am, nothing is 'universal'." Vien stated, "I just gave you basic guidelines that fit with a majority we have records of encountering or that I've had to treat myself.  I can't imagine anyone would apply that kind of...alterations to all of their elite soldiers, because that is, to put it in Commander Ngo's words, 'A losing strategy', eventually the Blakists had to think they would win and weapons like that can't be left loose without supervision, it would...be unthinkable, ma'am."  He shuddered a little, "I...I've seen horrible things, but I can't accept the idea that anyone could both have the ability to be that cruel, and the resources to make it happen."

"Your witness, Mister Haskins."

***

"You...ah...won't say the triggers you know of?"

"No sir." Vien stated, "I would never do something that harmful on purpose, and I can't guarantee the safety of anyone within hearing distance of even one of those phrases, sir.  It would be more than unethical or immoral, it would be outright evil, sir. Innocent people would be harmed without reason or right, and I won't do it."

[namar13766]

...Interesting. A POW can be conditioned to perform actions without them even knowing knowing about it.

Now what was the origin of Stone again?

[J-H]

The psychologist was a poorly chosen tactic from the get-go.  They put someone on the stand, in front of a majority Clan Warrior panel, who argued that people who had been involved in wars, and were courageous enough to do things to earn multiple medals, were mentally ill and in need of treatment before being able to associate with society.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

The psychologist was a poorly chosen tactic from the get-go.  They put someone on the stand, in front of a majority Clan Warrior panel, who argued that people who had been involved in wars, and were courageous enough to do things to earn multiple medals, were mentally ill and in need of treatment before being able to associate with society.

Why do you think Seether had to wipe the smile off her face and probably fight down the urge to laugh or giggle manically?

[georgiaboy]

The Clans as a group are not mentally ill. By definition they would be considered mentally conditioned. From birth they have been taught a way of life and no other.


But some of their Leaders and individuals, cough, Nikiy, cough, mentally ill, I would say delusional and possible psychopathic.

[monbvol]

My problem is it shows utter incompetence on part of the Prosecutor.  You never put someone on the stand without knowing what they will say and clearly the Prosecution didn't.  That he didn't do his own theoreticals and actually make sure the expert witness really was an expert is way too shoddy on his part for such a high profile case.

All in all it just does not feel like the Prosecution's case as presented so far is anywhere near compelling enough or that there is any real risk of Liz losing.  And there should be.

[worktroll]

At this point, the prosecutor begins to wonder if the Allies were the only people given a flawed battle plan ...

[namar13766]

At this point, the prosecutor begins to wonder if the Allies were the only people given a flawed battle plan ...

Now there's a thought that's gonna fester.

[greatsarcasmo]

My problem is it shows utter incompetence on part of the Prosecutor.  You never put someone on the stand without knowing what they will say and clearly the Prosecution didn't.  That he didn't do his own theoreticals and actually make sure the expert witness really was an expert is way too shoddy on his part for such a high profile case.

All in all it just does not feel like the Prosecution's case as presented so far is anywhere near compelling enough or that there is any real risk of Liz losing.  And there should be.

It could be the Prosecution was so utterly confident that they failed to plan. Wouldn't be the first time. Though I do agree.

[glitterboy2098]

interesting addition to the Manei Domini Lore. makes perfect sense given the canon lore, and the purpose they were making the MD for.

for reference, the procedure described is similar (in nature if not method) to the brain alteration done to Paolo Cortazar in The Expanse

which would be an example of what that kind of alteration might do to someone with little innate aggression or combat skills. manufactured sociopaths. now imagine that procedure applied to someone with higher aggression and trained for most of their life in how to fight. even without the cyberware, MD would be scary opponents.


and i personally would suspect that MD are 'programmed' like the normal WoB troops.. they grew up under WoB brainwashing after all. but i suspect the programming is different.. seems more likely to me that they'd be conditioned to become more docile and obedient on reception of the trigger condition. as a way of controlling such dangerous personnel.

[Cannonshop]

Haskins paused in his interrogation, and then he frowned. 

There was something in what the Lyran Corpsman had said that was bothering him.

He paused, and closed his eyes.

....pattern of symbols...

a hunch.

"Your honors, distinguished members, I need a moment." he said, "Corpsman Vien, stay where you are."

He walked over to the Defense table, and glanced down at what Sithers was doodling, remembering something...  "May I see that, Counselor?"

and without waiting for assent, he slid the legal pad one-handed toward himself, and Looked.

"Were you tampering with my witness, Counselor?" He demanded.

"Wellp...I guess he's not programmed, Seether."  Commander Ngo said casually.

Haskins looked at the two women.

"It was a guess. see who'd stumble."  Elizabeth Ngo said, "Don't worry, there's probably time to grab him before he realizes there's nowhere to report to. some of the triggers are specific commands, like 'stop what you're doing and go here'."

"JESUS  YOU WERE!!! You-"

"Inevitably, someone would demand proof." Elizabeth said, "it's not Seether's fault, I gave her a direct order as her commanding officer, show one around the room, see who bites. Your Doctor Yamada bit. he's compromised."

"and you compromised this proceeding to go on a Fishing expedition!??"

"after bigger fish, take bigger risks, if nobody popped then I wouldn't say anything, I wasn't sure he popped but you noticed and he clearly wasn't operating according to your plan, so two-and-two, and you just confirmed you're clean."

[JA Baker]

"Eto kuram nasmekh"

[Cannonshop]

The press were rushed out of the chambers and guards assembled.

"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Seether snarled at her 'client'.

"What in the name of the founder and the star league did you think you were doing?!??"  Lynn McKenna bellowed once the room was secured.

"Winning. The. War." Liz stated, "Khan McKenna, MA'am.  That expert witness was scheduled for the next twelve war-crimes trials involving known Blakist officials and collaborators, one of them dooing that little doodle and his testimony gets sunk and a real monster walks."

"what if he goes home and breaks out a suicide vest full of blastx and ball bearings, huh??"  Haskins added.

"Well, then we'll know how thorough they had time to be." Liz said, "and if he doesn't, then it means there's still enough of your expert to salvage and maybe rebuild his life.  It was someone fighting the conditioning that clued us in to the triggers in the first place.  Vu Dao told me it doesn't always stick completely, the personality overlays sometimes end up weaker than the host and they can delay or fight it for a while. as much science as is involved, it's still more of an art to mess with people's minds, sometimes they make mistakes. Pray your man is one of those times."

"this...you're going down."

"I've known that most of my life, Colonel.  The question isn't whether I'm going down, it's what kind of world is left when I do.  I prefer one that isn't being run by the kind of people who burn a man's brain to make him a killer robot, or slap instructions on someone's frontal cortex like a computer virus...but that's just me.  other people have other views."

[Artifex]

Oh wow, the intrigue rises.  8)

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Anyone else getting Ghost in the Shell flashbacks, particularly the first OAV, with false memory implants?

[glitterboy2098]

more like the "individual eleven" virus of GitS:SAC 2nd Gig. a personality overlay, meant to force the recipient to experience specific beliefs and cause them to do specific types of actions when exposed to the correct triggering stimuli.
but which mingles with the person's own personality and can produce unexpected results.

[LightGuard]

Anyone else getting Ghost in the Shell flashbacks, particularly the first OAV, with false memory implants?

I'd always considered WoB and the Manei Domini the Cyberpunk/Ghost in the Shell faction, what with the near-full prosthetic bodies and VDNI interfaces.

Glad to see another man of culture.

[namar13766]

more like the "individual eleven" virus of GitS:SAC 2nd Gig. a personality overlay, meant to force the recipient to experience specific beliefs and cause them to do specific types of actions when exposed to the correct triggering stimuli.
but which mingles with the person's own personality and can produce unexpected results.

It raises a whole lot of questions though. How many people have sleeper programming? How many don't? How do we know that individuals didn't try programming Liz during those two interrogation sessions? Where and how did the WOB get the expertise to pull this off? How many 'successes' and 'failures' are still out there?

[Derain Von Harken]

"Winning. The. War." Liz stated, "Khan McKenna, MA'am.  That expert witness was scheduled for the next twelve war-crimes trials involving known Blakist officials and collaborators, one of them dooing that little doodle and his testimony gets sunk and a real monster walks."

"what if he goes home and breaks out a suicide vest full of blastx and ball bearings, huh??"  Haskins added.

"Well, then we'll know how thorough they had time to be." Liz said, "and if he doesn't, then it means there's still enough of your expert to salvage and maybe rebuild his life.  It was someone fighting the conditioning that clued us in to the triggers in the first place.  Vu Dao told me it doesn't always stick completely, the personality overlays sometimes end up weaker than the host and they can delay or fight it for a while. as much science as is involved, it's still more of an art to mess with people's minds, sometimes they make mistakes. Pray your man is one of those times."

"this...you're going down."

"I've known that most of my life, Colonel.  The question isn't whether I'm going down, it's what kind of world is left when I do.  I prefer one that isn't being run by the kind of people who burn a man's brain to make him a killer robot, or slap instructions on someone's frontal cortex like a computer virus...but that's just me.  other people have other views."

Oh. Are really getting I to cognitohazard territory now. And a prime example of sleeper agents not to blow things up but rather manipulate legal proceedings. How much further could it go? Perhaps we will set off a cognitohazard that can lead to the resurrection of the fedcom. Cause of one of our popular victims of mind screwing is Victor.

[glitterboy2098]

i suspect that it would require more time than just two interrogation sessions.

but there is an important question.. when was this forensic psychologist brainwashed? and was it done before or after the WoB lost Terra?

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Unleashing it in the courtroom was probably extreme.

[Derain Von Harken]

Unleashing it in the courtroom was probably extreme.

Well they are not the ones who brought him into the courtroom now are they? Pity the guy may well have been good at his job before they messed with him.

Actually he says liz is going down? How is it that the prosecution is not in trouble for somehow selecting a WOB sleeper as a witness? At the minimum I expect a thorough questioning of why he recommended that guy. And if not him then who? And how many Trials has he already been used on?

[Korzon77]

I tink it also brings up another point--if even a man who was, to be honest, not that important to teh war effort was brainwashed...

Then the probability of the infinitely more important staff of the bunker being brainwashed approaches unity, as do all the groups with access to nukes. Which means that asking for surrender simply gives them the chance to launch, and makes Liz's approach both the right one and the best chance of reducing civilian casualties.

[Cannonshop]

Jury room..

"She's insane...my god, I heard stories but..."  Lt. Colonel Henry Grier shook his head, "She's nuts.  That was disarming a bomb in your bathrobe nuts, christ..."

"What are the odds??"  Chu-Sa Kyeok asked.

"Excuse me?"

"ten point five billion people, and the prosecution's expert witness is a Blakist plant, what are the odds?" Kyeok asked again, "See, that's what I keep hitting in my own deliberations.  The Defendant refused three offers from Stone, we didn't have to sit through this...circus."

Tsennig poured a cup of coffee and sat down at the table.  "you mean we didn't have to sit through all of this?"

"She refused the deals." Kyeok said, "but it really triggers the question of why she did, when she could be safe at home with some bad press."

"She would be safe at home until the war kicks off again." Ivanka joined them.  "But I agree with your first question.  Out of ten and a half billion people, the Coalition Leadership chose a Blakist Plant as an expert witness...For that to be random, or to be anything but arranged, defies reason."

Tsennig frowned, "Comstar leaks like a sieve." he said, "She claimed to be fighting the war, what was it again?"

"Winning. The. War." Ivanka's imitation of Elizabeth Ngo was uncanny and a little funny, she even mocked the expression.  "She is still fighting the war? aff...which means she distrusts the victory."

"Founder! is it so obscure?" Ilena sat down with her sandwich and a glass of milk.  "This 'test' was for us-she is pointing to the idea that the Coalition itself is infiltrated, probably at high levels-the odds are, as you put it, Kyeok, too slim to be coincidental, and her comment when she was revealed was telling as well..."

"you refer to 'At least we know you're not a plant', quiaff?" Ivanka asked.

"AFF." Ilena took a bite, chewed, and swallowed it down with a sip of milk.  "Stone's victories were too easy-when he was there. He has a background as a Blakist prisoner, and his battle plans..."

"Shouldn't have worked." Eric sat down with his own lunch. 

Grier looked thoughtful, "Yeah, I noticed that too.  Not quite Mercer Rhavannion bad, but still questionable strategies unless you've got an 'in' with the enemy's forces.  We uncovered a few sleepers during the war in the Federated Suns, but we assumed it was a complex and difficult job to plant them, and there were only a few rumours about 'triggers' that might activate them...I thought that Corpsman they brought in was just a grunt talking rumors and telling war-stories until..."

"aff. so she's using this tribunal as a hunting ground." Ilena said, "That bothers me."


"endgame." Ivanka said, "It is my consideration that if someone not directly critical to the war was compromised, then it is a certainty that Terran Militia high command and everyone with command access to the nuclear arsenal probably was as well.  in that situation, what would an offer of surrender have caused?"

"Boom." Tsennig said without humour.  "christ..."

"There is a larger issue." Ilena said, "Who chose that expert? he was slotted to testify in hearings for at least twelve of the highest officials we have in custody, who selected that expert?"

"It was not the prosecutor, maybe someone on his staff." Lynn McKenna said from the doorway, before joining the other senior officers on the panel.  "Yamada's record is pretty solid prior to today, when he fragmented." she sat down with her own lunch, and took the cover off, revealing a dish with green beans, chicken, and potatoes.  "You'll be happy to hear he was apprehended without bloodshed.  a search found no suicide devices or explosives in his quarters.  He is being referred for evaluation and treatment."

"So...do we declare a mistrial, acquit, or keep on with this charade?" Kyeok asked.

"It is up to you.  I think the better question is who the 'bigger fish' this fishing expedition is after might be." Lynn said it seriously.  "It must be someone in Devlin Stone's inner circle.  I think it unlikely to be the man himself-it would be too easy to uncover him."

"Fair."  Tsennig noted, "damn, that smells good. Now I'm hungry."

"Cafeteria is open, and secured." she said, "We are in recess while the prosecution and defense reconfigure to deal with...events."