Author Topic: Intra-planet redeployment?  (Read 7666 times)

Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #60 on: 07 July 2020, 14:30:54 »
I was thinking about the case of a.medium planet, that has some industry and s pair other potential targets. All in all located in a continent the size of North America or so. Not very spread planet-wide, but significant enough to make trucking around inconvenient when a raid is less than 6 hours from atmospheric entry to atmospheric leave.

The militia will have forces in all significant locatuo s already deployed for sure. What they will need is something that allows their reinforcements to move to the plac ethst is being hit fast. The said company of manticores, or a lance of mechs and maybe some LRM carriers. That make the armour company plus lance already on site get a boost to their combat capabilities.

Air still seems to be the best option here. Monorails do not feature in the fiction enough to be considered core transport systems for FAST redeployment across continents (2-3 hour margins).

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #61 on: 07 July 2020, 14:42:45 »
So Infantry Compartments can hold either conventional Infantry or BA?  I like that idea...

I hate the phrasing (bay, quarters, space, etc) on this . . . to be clear, space allotted for short term (hours) trip for infantry can move either infantry or BA provided its enough room- it does not matter if its a APC or a Small Craft doing a suborbital hop (or maybe longer, Grayson Carlisle took his platoon up to a recharge station w/o a 'bay' for a couple of days).  The question/answer came with using a AS Card that had a 'cargo' modifier rather than whatever for infantry transport, even if it was fluffed as moving infantry/BA.
 

FREX, we are told a Condottiere has been modified to allow it to deploy a single BA for EVA opportunites . . . not sure how 'extensive' that has to be for stats since it has a 1t cargo bay, though I guess it could be replaced to allow 1/4 of a BA Squad bay afaik we do not have a RS for that unique.

Personally, I would allow a 4t Infantry Bay on a Dropship (Jump?) to carry a BA squad as a option, but that has to do with some of the fluff of how BA are transported since we are abstracting a lot of stuff . . . and I have my fingers in my ears 'lalalala' not thinking about mass vs volume.

Air still seems to be the best option here. Monorails do not feature in the fiction enough to be considered core transport systems for FAST redeployment across continents (2-3 hour margins).

They can be . . . they feature in at least 3-5 incidents I remember- GDL getting hit on Hesperus en route under Lori Carlisle's command after Grayson died (problem was she should have stopped in or after exiting the tunnel, her destination was not scouted), Nichol Halas-Huges-Marik was nearly attacked by a train full of defenders on a independent planet, hesitating to fire b/c it was a 'civilian' transport & infrastructure even after having her invading forces hit a few weeks before the same way.  During Operation Guerrero Davion left overs hijacked a Capellan money transfer that was on rails- lots of l-bills and d-bills left with the retreating FedSuns force.  And I think we get a few other stories of forces behind shifted behind the FEBA during a invasion.
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Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #62 on: 07 July 2020, 14:46:10 »
So Infantry Compartments can hold either conventional Infantry or BA?  I like that idea...

So in our own designs, or even official ones, they are simply some sort of infantry -- but usually for x, y, or z?  I'm cool with that too.  My big honkin' chopper has a 36t infantry pay load, meant for Field guns/artillery ... I would guess any infantry can take that transport, possibly a bit more on a why-tf did they put all these tie down clamps everywhere!

I would think a Bay for BA is almost the same as regular Infantry except that the suits are there and prepped to go.

Colt: oh my, the above chopper is 60t -- I would imagine it would look HUGE compared to a 60t MBT with only 4 crew.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 14:47:41 by Wolf72 »
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Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #63 on: 07 July 2020, 15:06:05 »
Is there a rule clarification anywhere that confirms this?  ???

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #64 on: 07 July 2020, 17:17:27 »
It was discussed, as said, on a post involving a vehicle that had a cargo special on the Alpha Strike card - some old design like the Saladin (cargo) or something before they started defining down infantry bays.

Also FREX, the Bailey Armored Car- 3t cargo space that by the fluff is sometimes used by poorer militaries as a APC.
Colt Ward
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Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #65 on: 07 July 2020, 17:18:34 »
So it's good for Alpha Strike at least, it seems...

Hellraiser

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #66 on: 07 July 2020, 17:29:32 »
I think per the "fluff" we know that the 3 tons in a Maxim is 28 seats in a circle.

But that is TRO fluff.

We know the Heavy APC series is specifically listed as being able to be 2 normal platoons or 1 motorized platoon.

The Cavalry-Infantry is just listed as being an "Infantry Bay" at 4 tons.
Whether or not that is actually Jump Troops v/s Battle Armor could be debated.

I'd assume that "Infantry Bays" have some generic wall tie downs that allow for a row of flip seats to be put in for grunts or larger areas for jump/motor or a small "gantry/cage" for BA units.

I can't imagine its standing room only set up like a city bus for long range transport.

My guess is units like the Heavy series as well as later Clan War APCs have some sort of modular seating set up.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #67 on: 07 July 2020, 18:35:19 »
I think you guys might be missing some pretty obvious things here...
  As usual, your points are all spot on. Planetary infrastructure is rarely random, as laying down a city is an expensive operation, no matter who is supplying the funds.

  Considerations:

  1) Terrain is key.
  Airfields are usually situated in open country, primarily to take advantage of prevailing winds but if there are residences or buildings nearby, there are safety and noise abatement concerns, as well. Having aircraft on approach descending over the suburbs will garner you a lot of complaints, even though your runway was built decades before those suburbs existed (Yes, I was born in one of those towns...and you'd figure the people buying those houses would have noticed all the jets flying overhead...)

  2) Note the supply chain.
  The raw materials from the (A) mine are sent to the (B) processing plant then to the (C) manufacturer (stage 1)...etc... These could be all on the same world (cheapest), a series of worlds in the same system, or spread out among multiple systems. The same goes for food, water and other goods. A sustainable colony doesn't need shipments of supplies needed for its inhabitants to live...but...consumers place higher value on products not normally available locally, such as tobacco, coffee, tea or chocolate (things that I needed a ration card to buy on post in Germany as a soldier).

 3) Tie it together.
  Okay, you establish a raw material mine and set up operations. Where do the workers live? A tent city? A trailer park away from the noise and smell? Corporate apartments? Is there a commute? What is the distance from (A) mine to (B) processing plant, if they are on the world? The processing plant might be closer to the main power supply and better living quarters, and likely closer to the air/space port. People like to live close to work, so expect urban sprawl in the form of apartments until people earn enough to move to spacier suburbs.

  Despite being centuries in the future, the BTU is surprisingly low-tech, which is fine, because most players can identify with low-tech. That being said, there is still the principle of diminishing returns, you could plow a field with an ox-drawn plow and it would be cheap, but the time and effort would only allow so many fields to be plowed in a planting season, which is why one Medieval farmer might feed up to a hundred people while a modern farmer could feed many thousands.

  So, what do raiders go after? Unless certain raw materials are extremely rare to find (an impossibility in any system), the most cost-effective way to steal something is to let somebody do all the work and then take the finished product. Off the production-line equipment, vehicles, battlemechs, harvested food, all would top the list. When you steal a battlemech, you aren't just making off with an expensive product, you are stealing the value of its materials, components and the labor invested in creating it. Whether you are stealing something on behalf of a House or for blackmarket sale, you are investing your time, assets and even risking your life and freedom for some gain, so a raider rarely expends more than they will profit -Governments do that kind of rubbish, under the canopy of war, where the side that wins does so by costing the enemy more than the war costs them.

  Location, location, location...
  A system in the center of a House's dominion is going to have less chances of being raided than a border system facing a hostile faction. Then of course, that world devoted to mass producing plastic kitchenware isn't high on the list of strategic targets, unless that world by its location, is itself a strategic asset, where raiders would just visit to break things. A defender has to weigh the value of an asset, such as factories and warehouses full of valuable stuff, against the inevitable expense of guarding those assets. A strong enough defense might deter many potential raids, to the point that a lack of raids might raise questions about why there are so many defenders in the first place, especially among those footing the bill. The presence of nearby government assets effectively lowers those costs.

   

  Motivation
  Outside of war, the strongest motivation for raiding is profit, which also means a raider must also have a point where they will will just cut and run, rather than incur losses from which recovery is difficult. As with many mercenary units, some may take damage that costs too much to repair so they wind up accepting lower-paying, minimal risk garrison contracts until they get back on their feet. High-risk can mean scoring big but could also mean disaster for some.

  From one Creator of the Universe to Others...
  Over the decades I have run dozens of campaigns, many extremely entertaining and while I prefer to construct a "thinking man's" scenario, very few of my players campaign in order to think, preferring to shoot their way to victory. With that in mind, a GM has to set various levels of success for scenarios: A) Basic victory: Turn back raiders; B) Morale victory: Send raiders away with bloody noses; C) Positive victory: B with salvage; D) Total victory: C with prisoners; E) Resounding victory: D with valuable data to find raider's main base...etc. A thru C are pretty easy with just muscle; D and E take a little more thought and noncombat abilities, as prisoners and data are usually handed over to authorities at higher levels.
Most of my players always went for the lower-hanging fruit and only aimed their sights higher under the leadership of NPC commanders, sadly. I've run campaigns where none of the players wanted any kind of authority at all and intentionally designed their characters to be totally useless as administrators.
Sometimes, a GM has to dumb-down a campaign to suit the players who only care about combat and nothing else, which made running Clan campaigns hilarious, when the ToP winner was totally incompetent as a unit commander...

idea weenie

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #68 on: 07 July 2020, 22:03:00 »
    From one Creator of the Universe to Others...
  Over the decades I have run dozens of campaigns, many extremely entertaining and while I prefer to construct a "thinking man's" scenario, very few of my players campaign in order to think, preferring to shoot their way to victory. With that in mind, a GM has to set various levels of success for scenarios: A) Basic victory: Turn back raiders; B) Morale victory: Send raiders away with bloody noses; C) Positive victory: B with salvage; D) Total victory: C with prisoners; E) Resounding victory: D with valuable data to find raider's main base...etc. A thru C are pretty easy with just muscle; D and E take a little more thought and noncombat abilities, as prisoners and data are usually handed over to authorities at higher levels.
Most of my players always went for the lower-hanging fruit and only aimed their sights higher under the leadership of NPC commanders, sadly. I've run campaigns where none of the players wanted any kind of authority at all and intentionally designed their characters to be totally useless as administrators.
Sometimes, a GM has to dumb-down a campaign to suit the players who only care about combat and nothing else, which made running Clan campaigns hilarious, when the ToP winner was totally incompetent as a unit commander...   

I'd argue the smart mercs went with 'A' primarily, as that guarantees them future business fighting off pirates  ;)

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #69 on: 07 July 2020, 23:38:10 »
I'd argue the smart mercs went with 'A' primarily, as that guarantees them future business fighting off pirates  ;)
  There are many shades of victory and routes to claim it. A is the path of minimal risk and resistance, while E is riskier but results in far greater rewards. Most people are satisfied with the low-hanging fruit.

RifleMech

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #70 on: 08 July 2020, 00:20:57 »
Is there a rule clarification anywhere that confirms this?  ???

TM pg 239 under Infantry Compartment.

Quote
Weight x 1.0 (Infantry or Battle Armor)


Elmoth

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #71 on: 08 July 2020, 00:29:27 »
Alpha Strike does not differentiate between regular infantry and battle armour for transportation.

Great thoughts everybody. Thanks.

Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #72 on: 08 July 2020, 05:12:22 »
TM pg 239 under Infantry Compartment.
Thank you, kind sir!  :thumbsup:

Geg

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #73 on: 08 July 2020, 10:44:51 »
Are there any other options beyond the PlanetLifters for air freighting mechs around a planet?   Ideally ones that would move a 100Ter?   A lot of this discussion has been about combat.   But I too would be interested in ways to move the party between locations when Dropships are not available.  Having some fluff for some low rent mercs shuffling back and forth between different, feuding, planetary nobility would be helpful.  Especially if it could be something that they can lose and force a change in the dynamic of the campaign.

A lot of conventional transportation like trains and boats are options but they require a lot more friendly infrastructure to help with the move.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #74 on: 08 July 2020, 11:03:10 »
Are there any other options beyond the PlanetLifters for air freighting mechs around a planet?   Ideally ones that would move a 100Ter?

This has been mentioned a few times upstream as the LB-335, but here’s the link:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longhaul
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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #75 on: 08 July 2020, 11:25:06 »
Are there any other options beyond the PlanetLifters for air freighting mechs around a planet?   Ideally ones that would move a 100Ter?   A lot of this discussion has been about combat.   But I too would be interested in ways to move the party between locations when Dropships are not available.  Having some fluff for some low rent mercs shuffling back and forth between different, feuding, planetary nobility would be helpful.  Especially if it could be something that they can lose and force a change in the dynamic of the campaign.

A lot of conventional transportation like trains and boats are options but they require a lot more friendly infrastructure to help with the move.

Well . . . boats can get interesting too.  One of the MWDA stories had a merchant ship- or was it a dredge- converted to being a mech 'amphib' assault ship.  The Dracs have one in the Handbook, the Wakamiya, that has 8 heavy veh bays & 16 light veh bays supported by 3 doors with a large helipad on the aft part of the ship.  With three lift hoists and lots of cargo space it could load some mechs . . .

You also have the WiGE transports in the Koy/Ryu which were specifically designed to increase quick transport without relying on DS (per fluff), each has a hull that can float and carry over 100t of cargo.  The Ryu is the militarized (sort of) version, trading some cargo capacity for a bit of self defense.  Both of them scream to me of having tanks drive on and drive off- I used to regularly drive past the loading practice area for USAF cargo planes
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #76 on: 08 July 2020, 11:36:23 »
To circle back because I got to thinking of it and had once set up a combined arms battalion QRF carried on FB-335 LongHauls (12 Scorpions, 2 foot platoons, AC/5 field gun platoon, 2 towed artillery- BA if available) . . . but you can do the same thing with the Koi/Ryu.

Koi has 123.5t cargo and moves 5/8 while the Ryu can carry 108 . . . so you can get a company on 3 of the WiGE along with 2 companies of supporting foot infantry for a combined arms battalion.  Not bad for moving them a short distance, and then just roll off.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

RifleMech

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #77 on: 12 July 2020, 00:49:37 »
Thank you, kind sir!  :thumbsup:

 :)  You're welcome  :beer:

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #78 on: 13 July 2020, 08:34:08 »
In a few books and scenario packs, I've seen Suborbital Dropship deployments, Naval hauling, and Mag Rail movements.  So I suppose it just matters what is available to the Unit.
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Col Toda

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #79 on: 18 July 2020, 10:06:36 »
Depends on when the planet was settled . If it was during the Star League the infrastructure was optimized for speed and efficient distribution of goods not defense so you would have space ports with maglev rails radiating from it  over land . And huge docks with Industrial mechs by water .

If at Succession or after you place points of manufacturer at the tip of a single peninsula .Have the star port with Arrow IV batteries and ADA ammo to discourage  combat drops and a fortress w sub capital  weapons have the farms further inland connected by river or canal . Have a remote sensor network in place on the peninsula and longtom fire base  to shoot at any dropship that land anywhere in range of the fire base.

Regardless each objective raid target location should have inplace a platoon of battle armor or a company of infantry and a lance of combat vehicles  . Your mechs or either in postion and fast enough to intercept or they aren't  . They maybe fast enough  to intercept after they hit the objective.  The outying mines  just have huge entrance galleys  and  block the entrance with tailings rubble . That buys time for a reaction force to get there.  As for Farming areas have some of the outlying farms put fast acting enzymes in the silo when a unscheduled jump happens with no or hostile  response happens .  The silo becomes a fuel air bomb triggered by a stealth battle armor unit . Say Arrow IV strength 20/10/5 with the overpressure targeting troops in an unsealed combat vehicle .  All it takes is a nice multi role prefab silo design.  Enemy units will know what to look after the first time but small improvised WMD tend to be a morale breaker .
It is also nice to set up an anti flood and irrigation canal system to fill in dry canals with water athead of the retreating force this forces any enemy non jumping mech with an open leg to abandon it .

If initial proper urban planning for defense is not feesable support WIGEs for mech deployment and Lysander naval support for Aerospace assets .

Ideally the land just beyond the peninsula  and are dealing with a defense in depth situation.  With them getting hit with a wave of hovertanks with TAG supportng longtoms with copperheads before your mechs intercept .