Author Topic: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth  (Read 202823 times)

Ghost0402

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #750 on: 20 June 2018, 16:19:10 »
I wonder if ship in the middle of the Chinese carrier picture is the one underconstruction, the Type 002? There currently the original Type 001 (Liaoning) and first home made one Type 001A (rumored to be called the Shandong).
The last i read the 3rd home built carrier might be conventionally laid out.  I think 002 was going to be a super Kuznetsov style carrier.

Edit:  seems that was old info, 002 is 85kish tons standard style carrier.
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Kidd

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #751 on: 20 June 2018, 16:40:12 »
Slava - the OS weapon of the Soviet Navy ;)
The O.G. Dragon's Breath  :thumbsup:
I wonder if ship in the middle of the Chinese carrier picture is the one underconstruction, the Type 002?
Thats the theory...

glitterboy2098

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #752 on: 20 June 2018, 18:41:50 »
most of the speculation sites seem to be assuming it'll be some variation of this style:


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wantec

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #753 on: 21 June 2018, 12:29:49 »
Not to go too far into rule 4 territory, but the Chinese govt heavily controls communications and that photo is too clear & official-looking for it to have leaked out without approval. And I'll leave it at that.

That said, it's known that the type 002 was going to be a CATOBAR-type, catapults and arresting wires like American carriers. I don't know if they said if it was nuc-powered or not, but I doubt it, too many design differences for that.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #754 on: 21 June 2018, 15:59:20 »


Everyone does it.

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #755 on: 24 June 2018, 01:32:33 »
Speaking of carriers (and this one was more successful than the Special K)

The Bearn!









Always liked the look of the way her lifts opened up even if it was grossly inefficient.

« Last Edit: 24 June 2018, 01:35:21 by marauder648 »
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #756 on: 25 June 2018, 09:42:14 »
The ships that were suppose to have been the replacement for Bearn,Joffre-Class Carrier. One of the two of the class had begun construction, but was cancelled in 1940.  When i was looking up the French Carriers, the class resembles Graff Zeppelin Class the Germans were making later in the war.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #757 on: 25 June 2018, 15:25:07 »
Bearn is an interesting ship in a lot of ways... she was awful, no bones about it. Compared to other contemporary capital-ship conversions like Akagi, Lexington, or Courageous, she was even worse looking. But she also was France's first step into making a carrier- and comparing her then to ships like Langley or Hosho, she looks a lot better. The French definitely didn't have the right hull on hand for the job- a dreadnought was just not as handy for conversion as a battlecruiser, period. Some innovations- like those bizzare elevators- were bad ideas that would have been fatal flaws in combat. But, it was a first step towards real carrier experience, and from that standpoint Bearn earned a place in history- that experience, after all, still has its lineage in place even today, as one of the world's few carrier powers (even if Aeronavale only runs one ship these days).
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Ruger

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #758 on: 25 June 2018, 16:17:36 »
The French definitely didn't have the right hull on hand for the job- a dreadnought was just not as handy for conversion as a battlecruiser, period.

While the Japanese Kaga wasn't so bad for a carrier converted from a battleship hull, a closer comparison to Bearn might be the HMS Eagle from 1918...both ships ended up performing similar functions in World War II...both were slower than a carrier really needed to be once biplanes started going away and their airgroups were relatively small...by the end of their lives, what duties they were performing could be done more cheaply by escort carriers...

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #759 on: 28 June 2018, 05:47:05 »
While the Japanese Kaga wasn't so bad for a carrier converted from a battleship hull, a closer comparison to Bearn might be the HMS Eagle from 1918...both ships ended up performing similar functions in World War II...both were slower than a carrier really needed to be once biplanes started going away and their airgroups were relatively small...by the end of their lives, what duties they were performing could be done more cheaply by escort carriers...

Ruger

Oh absolutely agree on both counts. Japan oudid themselves on Kaga- she may actually deserve credit as the most successful battleship conversion, period. Even then, she was always a 'plan B' ship, not nearly as fast or capable as Akagi- and slowed down the carrier force. I recall reading she suffered from hull torsion problems somewhere, but can't find a reference to it anymore.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #760 on: 28 June 2018, 14:32:18 »
Meanwhile there's good reason everyone hides indoors during missile launches.  Video: what happens when an SM-2 does a little introspection and the suicidal killbot with a hug fetish that controls the thing decides it's not going out for walkies.

https://youtu.be/ydsm1uzkNu4

NSFW German language warning, of course.  Sachsen made it to port with no real injuries, but did have a great big scorch mark on her bow and bridge.  Thank Poseidon it wasn't a Tomahawk's thousand-pound hello package; the SM-2 runs about 1/8 the warhead mass.
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #761 on: 28 June 2018, 14:59:58 »
Meanwhile there's good reason everyone hides indoors during missile launches.  Video: what happens when an SM-2 does a little introspection and the suicidal killbot with a hug fetish that controls the thing decides it's not going out for walkies.

https://youtu.be/ydsm1uzkNu4

NSFW German language warning, of course.  Sachsen made it to port with no real injuries, but did have a great big scorch mark on her bow and bridge.  Thank Poseidon it wasn't a Tomahawk's thousand-pound hello package; the SM-2 runs about 1/8 the warhead mass.


Wow


Very pleased to hear no one was hurt - says good things about the ship's design
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #762 on: 28 June 2018, 15:41:40 »
Found a pic of the damage.  The VLS is actually behind the SEA-RAM launcher, just in front of the bridge, so the crew got one hell of a fireworks show up close.  Obviously there's at least one electronics pile that got zorched, and I imagine a few others as well, but damage doesn't seem to be more than superficial for the rest of it.  One well-built ship, certainly.  Plus, the design of those launchers uses armored cells for just that reason - incoming fire or malfunction can set off a missile, so having what amounts to the blowout panels and protected storage on a modern MBT makes a lot of sense.

Word is that the release system for the launcher failed, and retained the missile and its booster for the burn duration.  Nothing on why yet, of course.
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Feenix74

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #763 on: 28 June 2018, 16:07:58 »
Looks like RAN will be going back to its roots and our next frigate will be the "Hunter" class (aka Type 26) http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/bae-systems-selected-for-warship-building-program/9922666
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #764 on: 28 June 2018, 22:34:52 »
I'm reminded of that line from Weapons of Choice about how modern warships look so unthreatening and don't announce their capabilities with guns and turrets and whatnot.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #765 on: 28 June 2018, 23:24:22 »
Something to note in this incident- the VLS missiles are loaded individually, so the blast looks scary (and is, still), but is just one missile going off. Compare that to a problem with a bad round on an older ship with arm-style launchers and all the rounds stored in a magazine, and you're looking at the potential for losing your frigate. VLS means ripple-firing a lot more missiles in a short amount of time, among other bonuses, but this is one of its biggest advantages.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #766 on: 29 June 2018, 00:44:56 »
Plus, the design of those launchers uses armored cells for just that reason
A Mk41 isn't particularly armored. What we see in the video is the booster going off within the cell which the launcher is designed to redirect up- and outwards through the exhaust chute ("uptake"), with the automatic firefighting system immediately flushing the block with freshwater.

Word is that the release system for the launcher failed, and retained the missile and its booster for the burn duration.
Nah, that's just some people's layman suggestion based on the cover being semi-closed in this picture and the white burn mark for some suggesting that it redirected the fire that way:



However more likely the cover (designed to tilt open 90 degrees before launch) was simply damaged in the fire and fell back down afterwards, while the "burn mark" extends from the exhaust chute cover.

Found a pic of the damage.  The VLS is actually behind the SEA-RAM launcher, just in front of the bridge, so the crew got one hell of a fireworks show up close




I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #767 on: 29 June 2018, 12:56:59 »
Lots of damage to the ship. Going to be down for a while.
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VhenRa

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #768 on: 30 June 2018, 00:15:39 »
Looks like RAN will be going back to its roots and our next frigate will be the "Hunter" class (aka Type 26) http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-29/bae-systems-selected-for-warship-building-program/9922666

I personally think its a bad decision and they should have gone with the Spanish offering.

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #769 on: 30 June 2018, 00:26:11 »
Speaking of the Kaga

As originally designed as one of the Tosa class Battleships



As initially completed with 2 x dual mount 8-inch guns on her middle flight deck and 3 flying off decks


As she would end her life, following a very expensive rebuild the Kaga was given a single flight deck and was one of the most capable carriers in the world despite being somewhat slower than her near sister the Akagi.


And the bomb hits that killed her, attacked by two squadrons of Dauntless dive bombers, the Kaga was doomed the moment she was hit.  Although there was no aircraft on deck and the IJN wasn't preparing to launch its strike against the USN, her hangers were still full of ordinance and fueled up planes and when the fires broke out amongst them these weapons then became ticking bombs.
« Last Edit: 30 June 2018, 00:30:11 by marauder648 »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #770 on: 30 June 2018, 00:38:02 »
Japanese vessels had pretty poor fire control, didn't they?
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #771 on: 30 June 2018, 01:03:52 »
Japanese vessels had pretty poor fire control, didn't they?


Yes


It was more an issue of doctrine and training than anything dramatically different from the USN


If you are going to keep a load of planes fuelled and bombed up kicking around in your hanger, you need an armoured flight deck. I feel this is a bit like the triad one talks about with tanks - speed, armour and firepower - large air group, armoured flight deck, "prepped" aircraft hanging around.
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #772 on: 30 June 2018, 01:10:27 »
I just checked - Wikipedia reports that the Illustrius class carriers were armoured with a 3" flight deck to give protection from 1000lb bombs.
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Ruger

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #773 on: 30 June 2018, 05:38:08 »
I just checked - Wikipedia reports that the Illustrius class carriers were armoured with a 3" flight deck to give protection from 1000lb bombs.

IIRC, the British armored their flight decks due to doctrine...their ships would be mostly close to land, and therefore, land-based aircraft, but they were also closer to bases...

However, armoring a flight deck also makes repair more difficult...if they were severely damaged, the ship would be out of the war for months...whereas a wooden flight decks made damage repair far faster, so you have stories such as the USS Yorktown's return to the fight in a very short period after the Battle of the Coral Sea so she could be at the Battle of Midway...

IIRC, the Japanese did armor the flight deck of one of their carriers (the Taiho), but it wasn't until the Midway-class that the US did the same...but because we wanted to keep the large air groups of the Essex-class, we got into a spiral of increasing weight vs performance which led to increased size...in the end, the final design could carry an air group in excess of 135 aircraft, more than any other carrier at the time...

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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #774 on: 30 June 2018, 05:41:16 »
Just to be clear, the term is "damage control"... "Fire control" refers to outgoing weapons fire.

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #775 on: 30 June 2018, 05:48:47 »
Midway's results are really quite complicated, thanks to a combination of pressure, doctrine, operational and tactical ongoings and outright luck.

TLDR

1 - Prior to sailing, Nagumo was ordered to keep 50% of his aircraft available for an anti-shipping strike should the USN carriers be found.
2 - This meant that in reality the strike against Midway was pretty much guarenteed NOT to knock it out so a 2nd strike WOULD be needed. 
3 - Recon planes found nothing.  So  without a threat in the area Nagumo ordered his reserve to be rearmed with bombs.
4 - Whilst all this is going on the IJN carriers were coming under repeated attacks from Midways aircraft (dive bombers, twin engine bombers, torpedo bombers and B-17s)
5 - Then the USN's carriers started getting involved as well
6 - Its at this point that IJN recon spots the US ships, initially beliving them to be a surface action group, no CV was spotted.
7 - Nagumo hesitates and keeps his aircraft being armed with bombs for Midway, after all, cruisers and DDs are no match for his force.
8 - A WILD YORKTOWN CLASS CV APPEARS!
9 - Nagumo orders the aircraft being bombed up to halt arming ops and to be re-armed with anti-ship bombs and torps.
10 - All the land attack ordanace is left on the hangar decks (it simply takes too long to move it down into the magazines)
11 - USN attacks are ongoing with heavy losses for no gain, but the pressure is stopping the IJN from getting into any operating tempo other than constantly launching CAP fighters.
12 - Midway strike planes land and this halts any flight deck operations as the aircraft are brought down to be re-armed and refueled.
13 - Nemesis arrives when divebombers from the Yorktown and Enterprise make their attacks.  IJN hangers are mostly full of planes being bombed up, or refuelled or ready to be brought up to the flight deck to be spotted.
14 - Boom.

The IJN also did have weak damage control parties, unlike the USN where pretty much everyone was trained how to fight fires or deal with flooding. On the IJN it was down to specific teams of men and their officers (who did a lot more than the USN and were basically the equivalent of a senior seaman in USN terms).

Really if you want a good book about Midway, read Shattered Sword its pretty much the definitive book on Midway and how it all went wrong.
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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #776 on: 30 June 2018, 18:28:45 »
I personally think its a bad decision and they should have gone with the Spanish offering.

A 9000 ton FFG. Is the Australia's going to get TLAMS or something close?
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VhenRa

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #777 on: 01 July 2018, 03:29:16 »
A 9000 ton FFG. Is the Australia's going to get TLAMS or something close?

The main reason I think the Spanish option was better was because it shared like 80% parts commonality with their Hobart-class Destroyers, being based on the same basic hull and systems as it. That and unlike the other two finalist options, the Type 26 hasn't had a ship finished yet. Type 26 is risky... really risky. That and BAE "Budget Always Exceeded"
« Last Edit: 01 July 2018, 03:31:21 by VhenRa »

marauder648

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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #778 on: 01 July 2018, 04:31:03 »
The main reason I think the Spanish option was better was because it shared like 80% parts commonality with their Hobart-class Destroyers, being based on the same basic hull and systems as it. That and unlike the other two finalist options, the Type 26 hasn't had a ship finished yet. Type 26 is risky... really risky. That and BAE "Budget Always Exceeded"

Not as bad as the faff the Indian navy's had getting its CV into the water, hugely over budget and very delayed.
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Re: Naval Pictures V: The Glorious Fifth
« Reply #779 on: 01 July 2018, 04:51:24 »
The main reason I think the Spanish option was better was because it shared like 80% parts commonality with their Hobart-class Destroyers, being based on the same basic hull and systems as it. That and unlike the other two finalist options, the Type 26 hasn't had a ship finished yet. Type 26 is risky... really risky. That and BAE "Budget Always Exceeded"

You really aren't familiar with the Australian Warship production history are you?

Budget overrun is substantially less of a concern than having a ship that is terrible for ASW, like the F150.