Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III

[Metallgewitter]

I was about to say I thought Horses and Bears were on good terms, but Fulk is Khan now and he reads as irresponsibly aggressive.

Though I don’t think Horses are meant to be the ilclan’s antagonists. Not alone anyway. They’d need to show the Horses less goobery to make them a good antagonist. I think all the “we want to get away from IS vs Clan” mentions I see (that haven’t really been backed by anything yet) might mean Horses ally with Spheroid powers in whatever xoalition opposes Alaric’s Reunifications Wars 2.

Not sure if I would say that both Clans are on good terms. The Horses took someplanets from the Bears after they had distanced themselves from the Falcons (though in proper Clan fashion) and also to proove that their mongol theory was still valid (and to be fair the Horses version sound defintely more soud then the Falcon version especially the "Mobile wall of assualt Mechs")

I for one hope that the Horses stay around as they are one of my favorite Clans. And when it comes to Reunification Wars 2 Alaric boogaloo: isn't the Combine being turned into a sort of object lesson? The Bears just started an assault to provoke them and the Ravnes seems to have their eyes set on them as well (though also part of the Suns)

[Church14]

Not sure if I would say that both Clans are on good terms. The Horses took someplanets from the Bears after they had distanced themselves from the Falcons (though in proper Clan fashion) and also to proove that their mongol theory was still valid (and to be fair the Horses version sound defintely more soud then the Falcon version especially the "Mobile wall of assualt Mechs")

I for one hope that the Horses stay around as they are one of my favorite Clans. And when it comes to Reunification Wars 2 Alaric boogaloo: isn't the Combine being turned into a sort of object lesson? The Bears just started an assault to provoke them and the Ravnes seems to have their eyes set on them as well (though also part of the Suns)

Yeah. I’m not real certain on Horse/Besr relations. I do expect them to deteriorate with Fulk in charge.

I don’t think the DC is an object lesson. Ravens hit the FedSuns and the Bear’s actions smack of really, really optimistic “we’ll win a quick war and secure our influence.” So, I’m not really seeing Alaric effectively planning anything related to the DC

[Crimson Dynamo]

Has anything more ever been said of the survivors of the two Star Adder units gained by the Horses during the Reavings, the 191st Guards and the 5th Assault Clusters? Both were elite units from the Adder Alpha Galaxy (the 5th represented the Adders during the REVIVAL Trials). Would the Horses Watch simply have received an infusion of highly-skilled personnel?

[pokefan548]

Has anything more ever been said of the survivors of the two Star Adder units gained by the Horses during the Reavings, the 191st Guards and the 5th Assault Clusters? Both were elite units from the Adder Alpha Galaxy (the 5th represented the Adders during the REVIVAL Trials). Would the Horses Watch simply have received an infusion of highly-skilled personnel?

They were integrated into the Horse Touman after the Wars of Reaving, yes.

[tassa_kay]

Elements of Treason: Honor is out on Amazon, trothkin. It's a Hell's Horses novel centered around Peter Cobb from Tamar Rising.

[Angrii]

Color me interested. I would have wished for a different author but beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

[Church14]

I haven’t finished it, but it really feels like it’s prepping Horses to actually be relevant

[tassa_kay]

It was an okay read, as far as BattleTech books go. The fact that it was Horses-centric, a first for the franchise, made this an insta-buy for me. But there were a few things that felt off to me. I'll spoiler-tag them for those who haven't read yet.

The biggest thing I noticed was the Horses having such a poor attitude about their lower castes when previous books, namely A Rending of Falcons, established the literal opposite of this; there, we saw warriors helping the techs do maintenance checks and competing in sporting events with techs (and losing to them!), and it was disappointing to see this forgotten about. But I've noticed that a lot of writers either didn't read some of the MWDA novels like this or just decided to ignore them, and neither of those things sit well with me in what is supposed to be a collective, collaborative shared universe.

As for Peter Cobb, the POV character of the book, he just feels like another retread in the vein of characters like James Cobb, Noritomo Helmer, Stephanie Chistu, etc., the types that want to fix whatever wrongs their leadership has done, with nothing that really made him interesting to read about. I'm sure he'll make a perfectly fine, if bland, Khan one day, but he just didn't hit the mark for me.

There were also a couple of info-dumps that felt like they were transcribed almost verbatim from the sourcebooks. I could be wrong about this, and it's not the worst thing in the world, but it was definitely something I noticed because I'm pretty familiar with those sourcebook entries.

All in all, though, it was an entertaining read. I finished it in one sitting last night.

[CJC070]

The biggest thing I noticed was the Horses having such a poor attitude about their lower castes when previous books, namely A Rending of Falcons, established the literal opposite of this; there, we saw warriors helping the techs do maintenance checks and competing in sporting events with techs (and losing to them!), and it was disappointing to see this forgotten about. But I've noticed that a lot of writers either didn't read some of the MWDA novels like this or just decided to ignore them, and neither of those things sit well with me in what is supposed to be a collective, collaborative shared universe.

After reading I felt the whole poor attitude between the castes was more due to the Malvinas and even the Wolves influence.  The writer also had to work with a few restrictions mainly the lack of advancement (territory wise) with the Hells Horses before the Wolves and Falcons left for Terra.  In Tamar Rising there were a few planets conquered by the CHH that made it worse not better and the writer probably had to reflect what happened in the story.  After reading the Era reports of 3145, Field Manual: 3145 era and Tamar Rising I felt that the CHH become more like the Falcons in various attitudes. 

I feel the novel addresses some of the issues  and creates an opening for them to grow as a faction instead of being a carbon copy of the other Clans but with tanks.

[tassa_kay]

After reading I felt the whole poor attitude between the castes was more due to the Malvinas and even the Wolves influence.  The writer also had to work with a few restrictions mainly the lack of advancement (territory wise) with the Hells Horses before the Wolves and Falcons left for Terra.  In Tamar Rising there were a few planets conquered by the CHH that made it worse not better and the writer probably had to reflect what happened in the story.  After reading the Era reports of 3145, Field Manual: 3145 era and Tamar Rising I felt that the CHH become more like the Falcons in various attitudes. 

I feel the novel addresses some of the issues  and creates an opening for them to grow as a faction instead of being a carbon copy of the other Clans but with tanks.

I have to disagree with this. We've never been told in a sourcebook nor shown in a story that the Horses' alliance with Malvina ever affected how the Horses treat their lower castes. In "A Rending of Falcons", we were not only shown that the Horses have the exact opposite attitude to the lower castes that this story showed, Malvina herself was influenced by them and started giving the Falcons' lower castes a chance to fight and win a place in the warrior caste. I almost feel like the writer maybe didn't read this book, which surprises me because it's the only book in the Dark Age that the Horses had a significant role in.

I also disagree that the Horses are a "carbon copy of the other Clans but with tanks". We've got the Horses' Mongol Doctrine which ended up completely reshaping their touman, we've seen the introduction of a brand-new unit type in the QuadVee, we've seen the introduction of a new phenotype with the TankWarriors (this novel not including a TankWarrior character is absolutely criminal), Shrapnel showed us that the Horses have a whole side hustle going with racing mounts from all over the Inner Sphere and that they have random tank races on random hostile planets, and "A Rending of Falcons" gave us a fantastic look at the Horses' culture up-close: they bring riding horses with them on maneuvers, they have trucks that unfold into yurts, they compete in sporting events with their lower castes... the Horses were already a distinct Clan before this book.

[Angrii]

Well this is sounding like it's going to be a letdown... Someone at least tell me infantry and/or protomechs get some spotlight?

[Church14]

Well this is sounding like it's going to be a letdown... Someone at least tell me infantry and/or protomechs get some spotlight?

Protos get mentioned, but really only an acknowledgment that they exist.

Infantry do get brought up as assets and their work affects the story (and is acknowledged), though there isn’t really any POV of them being used.

It was an okay read, as far as BattleTech books go. The fact that it was Horses-centric, a first for the franchise, made this an insta-buy for me. But there were a few things that felt off to me. I'll spoiler-tag them for those who haven't read yet.

The biggest thing I noticed was the Horses having such a poor attitude about their lower castes when previous books, namely A Rending of Falcons, established the literal opposite of this; there, we saw warriors helping the techs do maintenance checks and competing in sporting events with techs (and losing to them!), and it was disappointing to see this forgotten about. But I've noticed that a lot of writers either didn't read some of the MWDA novels like this or just decided to ignore them, and neither of those things sit well with me in what is supposed to be a collective, collaborative shared universe.

If we are generous, we might be able to ascribe that to Fulk and Gottfried being being terrible khans and their incompetence literally degrading the quality of the clan.


I will say that getting to see the Horses Khans meeting Alaric from the opposite POV was fun. Every last Horse besides the Khans had the internal monologue of “you idiots, we’re all gonna die from Your stupidity.” It helps get rid of the broad brush impression of a clan of fools you get in HotW.

[trboturtle]

Hey, fans!

Been reading the comments and if you need something clarified, let me know!  :thumbsup:

As for the discussion about Hell's Horses Society.....It's not the same as it was in A Rending of Falcons. Fifteen years, a badly mauled Hell's Horses force returning from the Falcon Alliance, and two khans who are opposing each other have changed things. Throw in the fact the Horses have been in a holding pattern for most of that time, and they are not unified anymore. Their society is beginning to fragment, and it's happening between castes and inside castes. Lalia points our that Clanners are not built for peace -- they need war. The Horses are unbalanced, warriors without a war.

Now, with Gottfried Amirault's death, their society will have less stress. They will be better now that Fulk Lassenerra isn't fighting with his new sakhan all the time. Not perfect, but better.

Craig

[tassa_kay]

First, let me say this: my nitpicks aside, I did genuinely enjoy this book. In fact, literally the moment a friend on here PMed to let me know it was up on Amazon, I bought it and read it in one sitting. And as a Hell's Horses fan, I'm super grateful to get a novel told entirely from their POV. I can tell that you did your homework and it shows in your writing that you have love for what you're doing. So for that, let me offer my sincerest thanks. This book and Jaguars Leap are honestly my favorite Clan books to come out in quite a long time.

The complete 180 the Horses did in terms of their attitudes towards their lower castes... I can wrap my brain around them turning their frustrations inward, but it feels a bit out of character for them, as opposed to, say, the Falcons or the Jaguars. I just feel like the book didn't really explain this, just treated it like it was fact and moved on. We didn't see any of that happening in Tamar Rising or FM/ER3145, so it feels like it came out of left field to boot.

I definitely agree with the gist of what you're saying, though, especially about the Horses being stuck in a holding pattern. And when they've tried to step out of it by dealing with Malvina, they've been burned pretty badly. AND they just missed out on a shot at taking Terra because of their terrible Khan. I can absolutely see them in real danger because they're floundering about without a purpose.

That's really my only real gripe. As long as a big shift like that isn't written OOCly and is explained properly "on-panel", even if the end result is something I don't necessarily like, that's good enough for me. :)

Oh, two gripes... why the heck didn't you throw in a TankWarrior?! I was so sad not to see one show up! ;D

[wantec]

The complete 180 the Horses did in terms of their attitudes towards their lower castes... I can wrap my brain around them turning their frustrations inward, but it feels a bit out of character for them, as opposed to, say, the Falcons or the Jaguars. I just feel like the book didn't really explain this, just treated it like it was fact and moved on. We didn't see any of that happening in Tamar Rising or FM/ER3145, so it feels like it came out of left field to boot.

Maybe I read the sections of ER 3145 & FM 3145 differently than you. The first paragraph on pg 60 of ER 3145 for example has the phrases "...they adopted a hands-off method of dealing with the populace..." and "the two societies are still separate in so many ways, but they are united against outsiders."

And in FM 3145 on pg 151 at the start of the HH section, "Generally, they tend to leave the native populations alone, and the natives respect their enclaves and authority in turn." Later near the end of the HH section on that page, "Though some natives have passed through the Old Regret Training Facility, the lack of real integration puts a question mark over the population's general loyalty. This is doubly true for those of the former Wolf Occupation Zone worlds."

For the record I wasn't involved in this project.

[tassa_kay]

Maybe I read the sections of ER 3145 & FM 3145 differently than you. The first paragraph on pg 60 of ER 3145 for example has the phrases "...they adopted a hands-off method of dealing with the populace..." and "the two societies are still separate in so many ways, but they are united against outsiders."

And in FM 3145 on pg 151 at the start of the HH section, "Generally, they tend to leave the native populations alone, and the natives respect their enclaves and authority in turn." Later near the end of the HH section on that page, "Though some natives have passed through the Old Regret Training Facility, the lack of real integration puts a question mark over the population's general loyalty. This is doubly true for those of the former Wolf Occupation Zone worlds."

I'm not talking about the native Spheroid population, I'm talking about the Horses' own lower castes, the ones that are already a part of their society and who do all of the work supporting the touman and infrastructure of the Clan. I wonder if the Horses even consider the native population to be a part of their lower castes.

And I'm saying that we've previously been shown in FM:CC that the Hell's Horses have great relations with their lower castes and even with the freeborns and solahma in their ranks, and were shown in A Rending of Falcons (about 15 years previous to this book) competing with them in sports and assisting techs with maintenance checks on their machines. This book literally showed the exact opposite: Peter Cobb was shown assisting a tech and it was presented like it was a novel idea to the Horses.

I totally get why the fallout of the alliance with Malvina would set the warrior caste on itself; we saw previously that Beta Galaxy was very gung-ho for her even after the alliance collapsed and Alpha Galaxy was watchdogging them. But if it's something that's also affecting their relations between them and their own lower castes, that's something that we should either be shown (preferably) or told in the story.

[Jellico]

I have always read it that the Horses want to be a big Clan when they grow up. With lots of Mechs and dominant MechWarriors just like the other big Clans. But something always goes wrong and it is back to combined arms.

Which is not to say the founders weren't all about man before metal, combined arms etc. But even in the Horses Mechs are the elite fighting units and the Clans are a society dominated by MechWarriors. The quarterback knows he is king even as he acknowledges the rest of the team.

So when the Horses get a bit of material success the balance shifts and things get a bit weird until they lose again. After taking the Wolf OZ the Horses are swimming in potential, so I expect things to get weird.

[CJC070]

Actually some of the Mechwarriors who mistreat the lower castes were also are on Malvinas “might makes right” policy and the Golden Ordun began in 3135. So the CHH saw the Jade Falcons succeeding where they were standing still and fighting each other for 16 years (over one clan generation).  No wonder some of them abandoned the CHH way and embracing Malvinas madness.

[WONC]

I have always read it that the Horses want to be a big Clan when they grow up. With lots of Mechs and dominant MechWarriors just like the other big Clans. But something always goes wrong and it is back to combined arms.

This idea brings up big Malavai Fletcher vibes to me, and it resonates so much with how both Khans come across in the book. Peter Cobb seems to mirror James Cobb in the respect that he more or less represents the core of what it means to be a Horseman, while the reactionaries and radicals see other Clans succeeding and decide they need to reinvent the wheel instead of leaning into their actual strengths (in the literal case in the book of many Horsemen siting Malvina's version of the Mongol Doctrine as being superior to their own.) It kind of also mirrors how the Horses were portrayed in FM:CC, what with the Crusaders being in power and trying to whip the Clan into a victorious frenzy, while the bulk of the Clan were either Wardens or politically apathetic. That bit in the book about how the Horses are the only Inner Sphere Clan who has yet to adapt to their new reality of being an occupying power really rings true when viewed from that perspective, I think.

[wantec]

I'm not talking about the native Spheroid population, I'm talking about the Horses' own lower castes, the ones that are already a part of their society and who do all of the work supporting the touman and infrastructure of the Clan. I wonder if the Horses even consider the native population to be a part of their lower castes.

Ah, that's my misunderstanding of what you were saying.

I think the alliance with Malvina is probably what ruined relations between the warriors and the other castes. It may not seems like that long, but 15-ish years is a long enough time you'd have the old farts going "back in my day, all the castes were on good terms". Additionally, we've had material covering the military side of things in the DA era, but not too much of that kind of non-military interactions.

[Gaiiten]

Ah, that's my misunderstanding of what you were saying.

I think the alliance with Malvina is probably what ruined relations between the warriors and the other castes. It may not seems like that long, but 15-ish years is a long enough time you'd have the old farts going "back in my day, all the castes were on good terms". Additionally, we've had material covering the military side of things in the DA era, but not too much of that kind of non-military interactions.

Is it not a general problem all Clans located in the IS have, that the absolute supremacy of the warrior caste has been got weakened more and more?

[Metallgewitter]

Is it not a general problem all Clans located in the IS have, that the absolute supremacy of the warrior caste has been got weakened more and more?

The Falcons and Wolves and perhaps to a lesser degree the Ravens would disagree at least from my impression. The Bears are on the other end and the Foxes are well not really rooted anywhere (that only began with the formation of the Clan Protectorate and even then it is more Cats then Foxes)

[Gaiiten]

The Clans are a minority compared to the Spheroids and the warrior caste is a minority among a minority.

Of the Ravens we do not know so much details given their relations to their civilian castes and Spheroid subjects, but I bet there will come some nasty surprises.

The Sharks are hardly a Clan as they once were and Kerensky intended.

[Minemech]

 It would be outright bonkers for the Ravens to have poor caste relations. Such a thing just does not work out in an aerospace environ. Furthermore, the Raven espirit de corps is to place the needs of the Clans above anything else, including personal pride and honor.

[tassa_kay]

We don't know what the Ravens' relations with their own lower castes are like in the Dark Age, but we do know that relations between the Ravens and the Outworlders aren't great. The Ravens live pretty much completely separated from the OWA in their own enclaves, the Outworlders can't afford to shop with the Ravens, the Ravens can't get the Outworlder companies to work "for free" to meet their material needs (and the Ravens can't secure the capital to pay them), the strain of the Ravens reactivating their fleet has been hard, the vote for the Raven Alliance merger was apparently really close but less than 40% of the OWA population even bothered to vote in the first place, the balance of power is stated to be lopsidedly in favor of the Ravens with no real pretense of an alliance between equals, the Ravens have to rubber-stamp whoever gets elected to the office of President, and that's to say nothing of the Ravens' recent adventurism or their joining with Alaric's new Star League... it's not great at all for them.

[Minemech]

We don't know what the Ravens' relations with their own lower castes are like in the Dark Age, but we do know that relations between the Ravens and the Outworlders aren't great. The Ravens live pretty much completely separated from the OWA in their own enclaves, the Outworlders can't afford to shop with the Ravens, the Ravens can't get the Outworlder companies to work "for free" to meet their material needs (and the Ravens can't secure the capital to pay them), the strain of the Ravens reactivating their fleet has been hard, the vote for the Raven Alliance merger was apparently really close but less than 40% of the OWA population even bothered to vote in the first place, the balance of power is stated to be lopsidedly in favor of the Ravens with no real pretense of an alliance between equals, the Ravens have to rubber-stamp whoever gets elected to the office of President, and that's to say nothing of the Ravens' recent adventurism or their joining with Alaric's new Star League... it's not great at all for them.

That was somewhat inevitable given the Raven reluctance to bring in outsiders of any form. They are natural allies of the Bears, but not too many other Clans.

[tassa_kay]

And the Horses apparently aren't even engaging with the native populations of their OZ at all, which can't be making their situation now any easier on them. They're truly walking alone, surrounded on all sides by enemies and frenemies, they just got rid of one terrible leader just to install another one, aforementioned leadership threw a really stupid temper tantrum and walked away from the literal purpose of their Clan existing, and they've been stampeding without direction ever since.

[Metallgewitter]

And the Horses apparently aren't even engaging with the native populations of their OZ at all, which can't be making their situation now any easier on them. They're truly walking alone, surrounded on all sides by enemies and frenemies, they just got rid of one terrible leader just to install another one, aforementioned leadership threw a really stupid temper tantrum and walked away from the literal purpose of their Clan existing, and they've been stampeding without direction ever since.

They aren't? From what I understood is that the Horses interact with their IS population and they even recruit IS people into their ranks (those that finish the Old Regret training camp which admittetly aren't many) Now the more interesting bit are the people they "liberated" from the Wolves. The Wolves suppressed those and the Horses do the exact opposite perhaps giving them too much free room so that seeds of rebellion can grow. But in general we haven't seen much interaction between the Clans and their IS populations (with the exception of the Bears and the extensive lore building). We know from the Falcons that they act like the Capellans (Falcon over all) but they also adopt some worthy IS people into their ranks (Merchant Factor Daniel being the most prominent). And under Malvina they actually allowed them some more "freedom" as long as you dont provoke the warriors.

[CJC070]

And under Malvina they actually allowed them some more "freedom" as long as you dont provoke the warriors.

Tamar Rising describes it best.  Under Jade Falcon rule most places did okay when Malvina and her Golden Ordun expanded they basically enslaved anyone worth taking and smashed everything in their path.  For some of her warriors if you breathed wrong you got the snot kicked out of you.

[Minemech]

 Remember that there have been a great deal of instances where people embraced brutal forms of authoritarianism and totalitarianism wholeheartedly. We try to tell ourselves otherwise, or excuse it somehow, but it is a realistic phenomenon. I would do best to avoid specific examples, other than to perhaps mention an Arab proverb "Better a thousand years of tyranny than a single day of anarchy." I do not subscribe to this way of thought. Nor am I saying that the Horses brought anarchy.