Clan Culture, Resource Scarcity, and Gender Identity

[CitizenErased]

With the recent increase in representation of non-cisgender identities in BattleTech, particularly Frankie Fischer in Bryan Young's Fox Patrol stories and the protagonist in Jason Hansa's "Behind the Stick" in Shrapnel #15, it's been a fantastic time to be a transgender BattleTech fan. But this small smattering of canon representation has left me mulling over a bigger question - how do the Clans handle divergent gender identities?

I feel there are a few options, and I'll detail those, but I would love to hear thoughts from other fans, particularly other queer ones!

Modality 1: Non-permissive. This feels the least interesting to me both in a literary and personal sense, but it does potentially fit Clan culture overall. As genetics are essentially sacrosanct to the Clans, behavior that strays away from any form of genetic "truth" would effectively be heretical - you might as well be an Elemental that wants to be a MechWarrior! Similarly, the major issue of resource scarcity during the early days of the Star League in Exile and even until the beginning of the Golden Century could result in a cultural bias against "non-essential" medical procedures. Still, as I said, I don't feel this is the most interesting answer, as it paints the entirety of Clan society as a transphobic monolith.

Modality 2: Unilaterally permissive. This is the polar opposite of the spectrum, and I feel is very in the spirit of Clan society as we know it. Namely, they don't care in the least about such frivolous things as gender, especially since trueborn Warriors don't have to worry about reproducing via procreation. However, this does potentially butt heads with the nominal issues of resource scarcity the Clans have always struggled with - not in terms of the medical resources needed to allow ~1% of the population to transition (assuming the population proportion holds constant compared to modern estimates, which I'll grant is a pretty loose statistic but makes a nice arbitrary number), but because the lower castes have often been forced into arranged couples in order to reproduce as effectively as possible. Which leads me to...

Modality 3: Situationally permissive. Essentially a middle case, this would basically mean that Warriors are allowed to do whatever the hell they want, but members of the lower castes may not have that freedom for various reasons. More importantly this would allow for different Clans to have different approaches - i.e., the Smoke Jaguars would likely not allocate resources to such perceived waste and still demand transgender lower caste members to reproduce as directed because the Jags see laborers as cattle, the Blood Spirits may respect the needs of the lower castes but be genuinely too resource-poor to allow for much beyond basic hormones, and the Wolves and Ghost Bears may well have figured out how to grow a uterus in a tank on a whim (although I think if anyone's figured out how to perform a hysterectoplasty, it's the Canopians).

(Mods, obviously this is a topic that might get particularly heated and tread too close to Rule 4, so I want to clearly state my intent to have a positive discussion about Clan society, not draw any parallels to modern politics in any form)

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

You are overthinking this

Genetics and everyday life are two different things

In short Clans don't care what you do in your spare time as long as you do your job and this applies to everyone from simple labourers all the way up to Khans

You can play on Xbox all day long as long as you do your homework, metaphorically speaking

Medically wise if you have enough rep or are ranked highly enough to be seen as valuable you will get access to more elective medical procedures (money functioned differently in Clans before invasion), in fact this would be easier for civilians because they have more free time than warriors

If you are good enough you will get what you want, same as with everything else in Clan society

And Clan medicine is the high water mark of the setting, it's equal or superior even to Canopian, gender transition on that tech level is equivalent of today's Botox or maybe nose job tops

They easily grow limbs from scratch and prosthetic limbs that Clans consider generic were seen as high tech luxury items by the Inner Sphere

After invasion it's probably even simpler, once they started using money again it was just the matter of saving up and going to hospital for a day or two

[Maingunnery]

And Clan medicine is the high water mark of the setting, it's equal or superior even to Canopian, gender transition on that tech level is equivalent of today's Botox or maybe nose job tops

It would still require resources to dedicate people to learn and perform such a procedure, I can't think of any Clan that would do that for a non-combat related procedure. Franky being open about it would be extremely dangerous in such a genetic deterministic society, some Clans would reave entire sibkos for perceived defects.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

It would still require resources to dedicate people to learn and perform such a procedure, I can't think of any Clan that would do that for a non-combat related procedure. Franky being open about it would be extremely dangerous in such a genetic deterministic society, some Clans would reave entire sibkos for perceived defects.

Comparing medicine in real life with medicine in BT would be like comparing spaceflight in real life with spaceflight in, well... BT

Millennia in the future means that something like this would be like taking x-ray now

It's figured down to tiniest details and machine does the work (bio beds and med tanks)

Put the patient in, press buttons and wait

Sibkos were reaved for culturally completely different reasons

[AlphaMirage]

That is kinda my thinking too maingunnery. I think they'd be proactively non-permissive with sterilization if not euthanization on the table. Scientists would likely view such deviancy (to them) as a failure on their part.

The Clans Orwelliian social order does actually care deeply about what even common laborers do because everything is accounted for. Homosexuality is probably fine though as long as it doesn't damage the order of the enclave Also no one has time off in the Clans Civilian or Warrior except on Founders Day or maybe some religious holidays in Cloud Cobra. Busy peons cannot rebel and collective punishment ensures those that don't pull their weight won't bring everyone else down for long.

Elective medical procedures are likely rare. The Clan does not humor your requests. If you're not dying (or even if you are) or damaged to disability (and even then you'd better be irreplaceable) you probably don't want to or cannot go to the hospital.

[tassa_kay]

Speaking from my perspective both as a gay BattleTech player and one who in particular favors the Clans... beyond some edge cases (I'm thinking the RasDom and the Scorpion Empire, which have had to make some adjustments as they've begun sharing power with their non-Clan populations), I don't see the Clans tolerating divergent gender identities, or even acknowledging them in the first place. In fact, the Clans seem like exactly the type of society that would be conservative and absolutist when it comes to sex/gender.

The Clans are all about conformity and have a pretty solid grasp on genetic sciences, and I'd think that if they haven't already corrected things like gender dysphoria with actual treatment of the underlying condition (as opposed to what is done in the real world, which is to alleviate the symptoms through social and sometimes medical transition), they'd just flush what they'd see as "bad genes" down the drain. After all, why would the waste-not-want-not Clans go through the expense/resource expenditure of transitioning someone's gender when they can just sterilize or even euthanize them and replace them with someone that isn't a resource drain? That seems to be antithetical to the Clan mindset.

And speaking again as a gay BattleTech player, I'm A-OK with all of this, because it's all fiction and the Clans have always revolved around this kind of violent conformity; it's baked into the very foundation of what the Clans were formed to be. The Clans are defined by a lot of things, and one of those things is their intolerance for that which is different, especially where genetics are involved. We've seen them stamp out entire sibkos for a lot less... hell, we've seen sibkos cull themselves to weed out what they perceive as weakness, and as grim as it is to say, I just can't see the Clans not viewing something like gender dysphoria as a weakness, most especially the warrior caste.

snip

Literally none of this is accurate or cited anywhere in the source material. We've seen absolutely no evidence that Clan medical technology is "press a button and wait", either. Even their ability to replace/regrow severed limbs, one of their most advanced medical techniques, takes months of downtime, with some warriors opting for prosthetics just to avoid that downtime.

The Clans do have very advanced medical technology but it differs greatly from Canopian methods because Clan medical technology revolves around necessity (i.e., surviving on their marginal worlds, keeping their warriors fit for duty, etc.), not elective medical procedures. In other words, the Clans' medical technology is top-notch but also very, very specialized, as opposed to the broader approach we see with the Canopians.

In fact, WoK points out that not only have the Clans focused their technological research on military efforts, but they've had very few advances in civilian technologies save as spin-offs of military research. The general level of Clan technology differs little from the Inner Sphere and even lags behind in some areas (such as entertainment), as they've technologically stagnated in most areas outside of weaponry, genetics, computing and materials chemistry.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

For warriors at least, HRT is probably easily available.  Surgical procedures are probably not just because most Clan medical procedures are based around getting a warrior back into shape to fight some more.  And while conformity is important among the Clans, there's also at least some allowance for individual variation: homosexuality appears to exist without carrying any sort of stigma, as seen in several recent novels and Shrapnel stories.  So as long as you can fight, most Clanners probably don't care about what pronouns you want to use.

As far as the lower castes go, they probably allow you to identify as trans/nonbinary/gendernonconforming, but the best you're probably going to get in terms of gender-affirmation is your choice of haircut and people using your preferred pronouns.

[BrianDavion]

So my thoughts on this... first of all we need to stop thinking about people, partiuclarly the lower castes (but this Even applies to WARRIORS to SOME extent) like people, because that's not how the clans look at them
to the clans, all people are... livestock.

What do I mean by this? I mean to the clan way of thinking people exist to do a job, they are BRED to do that job, amnd are expected to breed the next generation. THAT is what's cared about, do you do your job? Can you breed? So long as both thsoe are answered yes. that's what's important. WoK explictly says many lower caste people have lovers outside their assigned breeding pair and that the clans do not care. They're likely utterly accepting of homosexual relationships (in fact it might even be sublty enchouraged to have same sex relationships outside your assigned breeding pair to reduce the likelyhood of accidental 'unapproved' children)  now transgenderism? that's a slightly differant kettle of fish. If "Tom the merchant " wants to insist his/her name is Marie and wear a dress? yeah bit weird but so long as Marie is doing their job the clans will ignore it, but elective surgery and hormone treatment isn't going to be accepted, because Tom/Marie needs to be able to breed. Likewise chances are clan records keeping isn't going to entertain the name change and "merchant Marie" is always going to be refered to in clan records and by officals as "merchant tom"

[tassa_kay]

Let’s be careful comparing sexual orientation to transgenderism, please. Sexual orientation doesn’t involve medical procedures, debilitating identity crises (which is what can and often does result from gender dysphoria), hormone replacement therapy, or any use of limited medical resources, all of which can affect a warrior's ability to do their job/a lower casteman's ability to produce offspring and are germane talking points when it comes to the Clans. The two have very little actual overlap, and as a gay man, I find it a little bothersome (if not downright offensive) to be used as a point of comparison to a condition that that has nothing at all to do with sexual orientation/attraction.

But I pretty much agree with the rest of your points, Ogre/Brian. I could see transgenderism to a very, very limited point, at least in self-expression (though I still suspect that the Clan tendency towards conformity could make things like that a bit troublesome), but I certainly don't see gender-affirming care being a thing in the Clans. In fact, given the Clans' advanced medical technology in the realm of genetics, it's just as possible that the scientist caste could've simply found an actual treatment for gender dysphoria entirely (one example I know of is that the Clans long ago solved the genetic portion of degenerative tooth decay, per "A Rending of Falcons"). But that's a whole other can of worms that I'd really rather not see BattleTech ever dive too deeply into.

[Jellico]

Tooth decay is a problem that immediately effects the function of the population. Can't chew, can't eat, can't work to 100%
At the same time we have examples of minimal treatment of chronic back wear and tear because an element isn't expected to live that long.
I don't know if they would bother with something like dismorphia unless it is effecting production. I don't think they would try to attempt to breed towards modern day morals. Even some of the stuff from the Star League suggests a much more permissive society.

Gender norms in the Clans have been portrayed as very vanilla because it is a product of the 80s marketed to Midwestern Americans from the same era. But if you stop and think about the implications of the sex is a handshake culture you end up with A Question of Survival. The difference being you can write that scenario now rather than in the 80s.

Art in books like Warriors of Kerensky suggests self expression is still very much a thing.

My suspicion is orientation isn't an issue because it costs the society nothing. Low cost modification is probably accepted. If you can pay for alcohol, you can pay for hormones. But anything more would be problematic. We are talking a society that will choose cybernetics over waiting six months for a limb to grow. If a warrior can't be out of action for that long, a civilian will need a very good business case to justify any sort of surgery.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Also, while gender identity and sexual orientation are quite different from a scientific perspective, they're strongly linked when it comes to political and social perspectives.

And let's face it, you can get away with just about any personal peculiarities in the Clans as long as you can take down anyone who disagrees with them in a Circle of Equals.

[tassa_kay]

Also, while gender identity and sexual orientation are quite different from a scientific perspective, they're strongly linked when it comes to political and social perspectives.

Largely due to ignorance and bigotry. And completely besides my point. Jellico got it: orientation costs Clan society nothing, transgenderism does in fact have a cost. I’m leaving real-world political/social perspectives aside because they have no real relevance in what is essentially an alien culture.

And let's face it, you can get away with just about any personal peculiarities in the Clans as long as you can take down anyone who disagrees with them in a Circle of Equals.

This much, at least, I largely agree with.

[Gaiiten]

I do not think that the Clans give even a cent for thinking of this.

Especially the Home Clans do have more to do with surviving their harsh worlds.

If you do your  work and service properly, you may lîve a gender of a sad dolphin, if you disturb the peace of the Clan(s) with such activism, a Circle of Equals, medical treatment or death penalty will come to be sure.

[cmerwin]

My suspicion is orientation isn't an issue because it costs the society nothing. Low cost modification is probably accepted. If you can pay for alcohol, you can pay for hormones. But anything more would be problematic. We are talking a society that will choose cybernetics over waiting six months for a limb to grow. If a warrior can't be out of action for that long, a civilian will need a very good business case to justify any sort of surgery.

First, I'm grateful that we are a community that is welcoming to all sorts of conversations. Another reason why I love BattleTech and its players.

Second, I think it's absolutely correct that the Clans would not care at all about anyone's orientation, as long as it does not interfere with their performance. Second, if there is one resource the Clans have in abundance, it's genetic material and technology. I imagine that for Clan scientists gender confirmation is much easier, faster, and more efficient than it is now, by a long shot, especially for Trueborns. It is far less expensive to do HRT than to regrow and retrain another trueborn warrior, especially if the argument is that gender confirmation would make them better at being a warrior.

"You, Scientist, you decanted this Trueborn warrior into a body that they do not feel is optimal for their performance. Change it to their desired configuration immediately."

"Yes, Star Captain!"

This is, for the touman, actually more important, than say, the same trueborn warrior requesting a bicycle. Those are resources that are more difficult to come by, are not in abundance, and are probably already dedicated towards other projects.


I agree with what most others have said though regarding freeborn lower castes. At most you get preferred pronouns, maybe you can spend what disposable "income" you have on your own elective HRT, but the Clan is not going to do it for you because it has no investment in doing so.

[Maingunnery]

"You, Scientist, you decanted this Trueborn warrior into a body that they do not feel is optimal for their performance. Change it to their desired configuration immediately."

They are more likely to shoot the involved scientists for making a critical mistake and then reave the entire sibko.

They are eugenicists and they do not care about any type of plastic procedures. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

They are more likely to shoot the involved scientists for making a critical mistake and then reave the entire sibko.

They are eugenicists and they do not care about any type of plastic procedures.

Maybe the Jaguars or Falcons would, but not every Clan.

[AlphaMirage]

We possess no indication that the Clans engage in cosmetic plastic surgery either however, thus it is entirely possible that they don't beyond the rough grafting of cybernetics or installation of cloned organs, both rather uncommon and technically challenging procedures. Now it is probable that the Scientist/Doctors that install these prostheses do some reconstructive work to incorporate them better but it is unlikely that you could elect to receive a non-essential procedure as such individuals are likely scarce and in high demand. It is not likely that the Exiles thought to bring along plastic surgeons on their one way trip (as part of their highly screening and self-selected members of the SLDF), and entirely within the realm of possibility that injuries such as severe facial trauma requiring reconstructive surgery are as likely to lead to abandonment and deprivation as reconstruction for most Clans, particularly for Warriors.

Warriors are also held to a much higher standard and thus they are doubly susceptible to being ousted from the Touman rather than necessarily privileged over the civilian castes except that you probably receive sufficient food. You are possibly more likely to receive a higher standard of medical care as a high ranking Merchant Factor or Scientist than you might expect a Warrior to receive. We are after all always making more via Iron Wombs and reject thousands of them every year.

[Gaiiten]

BTW I do not think that the Clans do have so-called human/soft "sciences" as to sociology and "genderlogy".

Todays idea of Gender (chosing your sex as you feel/you want and as often as you like) would be very alien to them. People who want to have precious resources for this used will face consequenses. At least a rebuke.
They would say "given your genetics you are male" or "you are female". "Live on with that."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

On the reverse side, it's pretty rare for a society that's so lacking in gender-based prejudices or so permissive with sexuality to care that much about gender identity.  There's a considerable difference between accepting of gender identity and undergoing hormonal and surgical alterations.

[Jazzhands Licker]

I'm not going to answer for the Clans, as I am still learning much on them.  I can only speak on my experience living in remote places of extreme poverty on our planet.  Now, yes, this is comparing our modern world to a fictional world 1,000 years in the future, but I just have my experiences to draw on.

Rather than break it all down, I'll just ask a question:  Do they even have time to contemplate many of these issues?

What I mean by time is that when you're living in a resource-poor location (and poverty), you tend to have far different priorities.  The villages I've been do in Africa and the Pacific tended to have reinforced roles for everything (much like the caste system), and anything that could be considered a luxury (ie that doesn't directly contribute to the society) gets at best, the silent treatment, at worst punishment.  So, something that doesn't directly answer a question like "Have you met your quota?" would get either a simple "uh huh... but HAVE you met your quota?" or "hold on, I need to report you..."

But this may be my utter failure to understand the Clans.

Also, yeah, I thought only the Belters had the push-button medical system.

[cmerwin]

We possess no indication that the Clans engage in cosmetic plastic surgery either however, thus it is entirely possible that they don't beyond the rough grafting of cybernetics or installation of cloned organs, both rather uncommon and technically challenging procedures.

We actually do. It's mentioned in a couple of places, most famously with Trent Smoke Jaguar. In Exodus Road the doctors mention regrowing him an entirely new eye in less than 5 days, and the addition of synthetic skin across his head and face. The doctor is also clear that they could very easily repair the damage to his face, but that the Clan would not allow the squandering of medical resources for "vanity", having already repaired him enough to return him to active duty.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

We actually do. It's mentioned in a couple of places, most famously with Trent Smoke Jaguar. In Exodus Road the doctors mention regrowing him an entirely new eye in less than 5 days, and the addition of synthetic skin across his head and face. The doctor is also clear that they could very easily repair the damage to his face, but that the Clan would not allow the squandering of medical resources for "vanity", having already repaired him enough to return him to active duty.

Exactly

Which means that even Smoke Jaguar medics are perfectly qualified to handle cosmetic surgery, they just don't do it unless they have to

Less fatuous Clan (which is pretty much all of them) would be practicing cosmetic surgery much more often than them

Like I said before, sci-fi levels of medical science so it wouldn't even be a big deal technically or resource wise

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not entirely sure that trueborns would have gender dysphoria or be transgender. the current research into it indicates that while there is a genetic component to being transgender, most of it derives from the prenatal enviromental conditions which can cause those genetics to manifest, and the times in which those conditions happen. with Trueborns being gestated in artificial wombs under very carefully controlled conditions, i suspect that the fetuses just wouldn't be exposed to whatever conditions would cause the mismatch of body and mind. and if for some reason, something happened that did, odds are the entire sibko would end up as such. but i suspect that dysphoria would be considered an unwanted traits by both the warrior caste and the eugenics program, and they'd study the records to figure out what happened in the ironwombs, and adjust their procedures to prevent it in future sibkos)

that said, the clan's freeborn population would likely have a fair percentage of people who are transgender and experience dysphoria. possibly more than IRL, given how rough the non-warrior populations have to live, which would expose pregnant people to all sorts of stresses and conditions that might effect their offspring.

[Jellico]

I think it is important to remember the appendix. It is a left over piece of evolution that the body doesn't really need any more. Everything alive is full of them. Human backs are notorious for being full of cludges to handle upright locomotion.

In terms of things a Clan scientist might want to modify or remove, gender is an after thought. It might get tweaked while selecting for aggression or stamina, but that is a accidental by-product. It is easy to imagine a tension between increasing testosterone and retaining reproductive capability for test downs. That is basic level stuff that will mess with brain chemistry.

But what I am saying is for the most part, gender won't be important enough to "fix" but could be taken all sorts of places by accident.

Exactly

Which means that even Smoke Jaguar medics are perfectly qualified to handle cosmetic surgery, they just don't do it unless they have to

Less fatuous Clan (which is pretty much all of them) would be practicing cosmetic surgery much more often than them

Like I said before, sci-fi levels of medical science so it wouldn't even be a big deal technically or resource wise

Hair dye. If you have ever seen a photo of the CCP you will know the importance of hair dye.

[cmerwin]

Like I said before, sci-fi levels of medical science so it wouldn't even be a big deal technically or resource wise

Agreed. I also think its interesting what counts as "fit for active duty". There are examples of Spheroid mechwarriors who still pilot a mech with only one eye, yet the Smoke Jaguars don't even blink at just regrowing, grafting, and replacing an entirely new eye for an un-Bloodnamed Star Captain in less than a week (technology which is currently waaaaay beyond our current 21st century abilities).

And I take your point about less fatuous Clans seriously. For almost any other Clan, except maybe CJF, these are easily achievable, non resource intense, operations that just need command authority. My own Clan leadership has the tendency to live well into their 90's, and I am sure they get nearly any medical treatment they want and we know of examples of Elementals having whole limbs regrown. Because at the end of the day, it really does cost more materiel to produce a Bloodnamed Elemental Star Colonel, than it does to just regrow their leg.

"Nurse John, what is on the docket this week?"
"Well Doctor Crick, the saKhan is coming in for his liver transplant, but that will probably just be outpatient."

If a commander wants one of their warriors to have gender confirming surgery or hormone therapy, it's scientifically easy for the Clans, and depending on the attitudes of the individual Clan, probably not a big deal.

[Metallgewitter]

Maybe the Jaguars or Falcons would, but not every Clan.

*cough* Vipers and Blood Spirits *cough*

Though I for one doubt thew Clan medicine even accounts for such things. You have to remember that the Clan's favor efficency over drawn out processes and have a waste not want not mentality. And while I tend to agree that the Clans have high medical capabilities in this particular field they probably stay strict to the man / woman structure. First off all we don't know how far medicine has reached at this point. Considering the Clans specialized on genetics, cloning of body parts and reconstructive surgery (partially with cybernetics) for warriors of high staus / high potential I doubt they would even dream of actually transforming a body to another gender just because the warrior demands it (not to mention I for one believe if a child in a sibko even utters things like "I feel I am not a boy / girl he or she will get the extra hards treatment or it's even off to the lower castes and then good luck with getting any real access to said medical help). And if we take today's medicine as basis I fear such an altered body needs still medical maintenance. Which is detrimental in a society where conflict is as regular as breathing.

You might find such  a technique more likely in the freewheeling Magistracy of Canopus (Cat girls anyone?) or in the Terran Belter societies. The Belters have even better medical overall knowledge then the Clans. Heck their normal born younglings have traits that are on par with vat born Clan children.

[rebs]

Maybe the Jaguars or Falcons would, but not every Clan.

*cough* Vipers and Blood Spirits *cough*

On the other end of the spectrum, I could see the Sea Foxes actually offering gender reassignment surgical procedures. 

But I have to agree with most people above that for the most part the Clans by-and-large aren't going to do this very often.  Mostly just if they are rebuilding a person after a catastrophic injury or illness.  And then not in all cases.  HRT is one thing, but the surgical procedures probably not.

Now, regarding waste.  I could see them designating such a procedure a "waste of time and resources" etc... but then how many OmniMechs get wrecked in all of these ToPs, every year, every generation, for how long?  Trials that are passed as well as failed. 

I know, this is hardly a shocking headline - NEWS FLASH, THE CLANS ARE GREAT BIG HYPOCRITES.

Even if this hypocrisy is built into their culture, it is worth noting and also wondering about how their views and practices may adjust with time in the Inner Sphere. 

[Alan Grant]

Since this thread appeared I've been wrestling a lot with how to contribute. I've poured over books I've poured over a hundred times, yet again, trying to find useful relevant clues that might hint at an answer. I've written, deleted, re-written more than one post. I eventually realized none of that mattered. It was all topic-adjacent at best. It didn't speak to this topic.

My central conclusion and thesis is thus: The Clans devote resources based on their own internal sense of priorities, and we don't know how they would perceive issues of gender identity as a priority. (unless there's something new that sheds light on this, new story published for example that I haven't read)

I know that probably sounds like a cop-out answer, but it isn't. There is a fundamental missing piece here. Show me where the Clans perceive this issue and in turn, I can start to formulate a coherent answer based on how we know the Clans allocate resources. Do they see it as an optional indulgence? Do they see it as an imperative to ensure to ensure the happiness of the individuals in the Clan? Do they see it as a strike against Clan style conformity, to be resisted? Or do they support this as a way to optimize productivity? We know the Clans dictate resources to individuals based on their value to the Clan, could that include this issue as well? Does the Clan tendency toward directness and honesty compel them to address this issue for sake of making Clanners who are being very direct and honest regarding their own identity into more satisfied members of the Clan? Do they perceive it some other way? (these are all rhetorical questions, you don't know the answer, not really, you can speculate, but you don't really know, neither do I, that's my point)

As-is. Unless we have seen something in some of the newer fiction that does shed light on the perception of the Clans on this issue (how they perceive it, how they would prioritize it in terms of resources), I can't draw a conclusion.

The good news is this. Since the Clans are such an alien culture, there isn't some inertia of history to tell us where the Clans SHOULD be on this issue. I can conceptualize and rationalize almost any position imaginable (and I can do it from book and page number references that address topics of productivity, or optimization, or happiness, or advanced medical technology, or societal norms surrounding sexual behavior, from Clan style directness and frankness to Clan tendencies toward conformity, to how the system of arranged marriages has divorced sexual identity from reproduction). From either extreme view, to the more mixed or moderated views. Yes it could also be sub-divided by caste or the individual's perceived value to the Clan and in turn the Clan's willingness to expend resources on that person. It can also differ by Clan, for sure. Note the different way I framed the various rhetorical questions (two paragraphs above).

The writers can pretty much do what this what they wish and I can see a path to justify that view (whatever it is). The field is pretty wide open on this one. The paths they can decide are a multitude that go off in many directions.

The real challenge then... is what the writers ACTUALLY do with this, and I think that day is coming. Once they do start to address this from the Clan perspective at all, then the path begins to narrow very quickly.

[cmerwin]

Since this thread appeared I've been wrestling a lot with how to contribute. I've poured over books I've poured over a hundred times, yet again, trying to find useful relevant clues that might hint at an answer. I've written, deleted, re-written more than one post. I eventually realized none of that mattered. It was all topic-adjacent at best. It didn't speak to this topic.
...
The real challenge then... is what the writers ACTUALLY do with this, and I think that day is coming. Once they do start to address this from the Clan perspective at all, then the path begins to narrow very quickly.

Alan, as always, your voice and viewpoints are balanced, canonically accurate, well thought through, and (by me) welcomed.

As an old grognard who started playing BattleTech in 1985, I'll respond (possibly unrequested) and add my hopes for the Writers.

My own hope is that the "Writers" take a complicated and nuanced approach to this, just as so much of BattleTech lore has already been nuanced. I agree with (and love the) statement Stackpole made when he wrote that "BattleTech has always been woke." But BattleTech has also always been complicated. Just like real life. I hope the writers write about Clans that are both tolerant and and intolerant, Clans that are "conformist" (at least within Clan culture) and "non-conformist". I think they've written and laid the ground work for many such Clans already.

I hope they continue to write in a way where BattleTech is for everybody. Clanners, and stravag Spheroids alike. ;-)

[Cannonshop]

Largely due to ignorance and bigotry. And completely besides my point. Jellico got it: orientation costs Clan society nothing, transgenderism does in fact have a cost. I’m leaving real-world political/social perspectives aside because they have no real relevance in what is essentially an alien culture.

This much, at least, I largely agree with.

Clan perspective now; What is the relative value to the Clan, given the Clan priorities, versus the investment necessary?  IOW, is it 'worth it' for the Clan to produce the necessary synthetic hormones for HRT, to have the cosmetic surgeons necessary for top or bottom surgery, and what is the payoff to the Clan for having resources dedicated to those things, versus an electro-whip to beat the lower caste into conforming with expectations or the bullets to shoot lower castes who are not meeting their quota?

Keep in mind something else, from WoK and not contradicted later, the average lifespan for a Laborer is 50 years old at best, which means a significant portion die well below fifty.

Is a Scientist Caste worth the investment? maybe...if they are VERY productive in turning out useful innovations (which doesn't happen all that often given the speed of 'innovation' since the Golden Century has been a crawl and the best ones thus far have been from desperation moves thanks to losing to the dirty primitives).

Merchant caste? probably not.

Laborers can forget about it, they're not going ot live long enough for it to matter, and they're imminently replaceable.

and what about the Warrior Caste?

Well...that's going to depend on two things: 1. is the necessary treatment even available, safe, and reliable?  2. is the Dysmorphia impacting the warrior's performance and will it actually be addressed by the change?

BrianDavion had it right in that under the Clans, everybody is PROPERTY, they're bred like livestock, traded on a bet, and denied mobility *You can't quit your job or move without permission.

This makes a lot of what we consider 'basic human rights' something more like privileges earned for good behavior and witheld  based on what is convenient for your immediate chain of command (pending Klingon promotions, which only are valid in the Warrior Caste.)

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

One thing everyone assumes is that gender dysphoria would be something new to the Clans for some odd reason

It wouldn't

It was already old news for IRL doctors back when Battletech was originally written

Millennia into the future it would be just one more on the list of medical conditions which have been treated routinely and effortlessly for centuries

And any stigma associated with it would be a thing of ancient past

We don't have stigma against fractured bones, millennia from now nobody would have stigma against gender dysphoria

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

A lot of people in this thread are treating "accepting of trans identity" and "gender-affirming medical care" as if they're synonymous.  They really aren't: for thousands of years, various cultures in the real world accepted trans identities but obviously did not do much beyond letting someone live and dress as a member of their preferred gender because that was all that could be done for them.  There's absolutely no reason that the same thing couldn't happen for non-Warrior trans people in the Clans.  It's not like it costs anything extra for a laborer to buy a dress instead of pants to wear when they're off duty and relaxing.  Especially when there's the occasional Elemental phenotype in the labor pool.

[Jellico]

The system produces recreational drugs like alcohol. So there is enough slack to produce frivolous items. In any case alcohol is dual use with industrial applications. HRT drugs have other medical applications. How much is someone willing to pay?

[Maingunnery]

2. is the Dysmorphia impacting the warrior's performance and will it actually be addressed by the change?

To expand upon this. If it did impact the warrior's performance then they would likely not succeed in their ToP and thus be kicked out of the Warrior caste.

[Metallgewitter]

To the regrowing of body parts: as far as I understand it is something the Clan usually only grants to really deserved warriors. For example the Elemental who led the first charge against Taskforce Serpent was given the privilege of a vat grown leg he lost during Operation Bulldog because his codex was outstanding. So IF a warrior thinks he or she needs such a big operation there needs to be worth to it. Heck I could see his or her superior simply say "Not worth it and if this disturbance continues it's of to Solahma duty or even right to the laborer caste". And as others pointed out most Clan warriors are used as to quote Victor Steiner-Davion "homo sapiens parabellum": they have a short career expectancy. Remember if you are 30 and have not achieved much you are already half out of the door. As Redemption Rites has shown even by 3151 this structure is still ingrained into every Clan warrior. After all this is what forces every warrior to do his or her best lest they are demoted. So I would doubt such deep surgeries are even thought of as it could even shorten said warrior's career.

[phoenixalpha]

I would guess that in the Clans as in the Inner Sphere, it really wouldn't matter one bit who or what your gender and/or sexual preferences are. As long as you do your job, it doesn't matter. If it affected your effectiveness then their might be an issue, but I imagine that nigh on a thousand years from now... it wont matter one bit apart from maybe extremely repressive religions/societies scattered around.  It shouldn't matter now, I highly doubt it would matter then. In the Inner Sphere and Periphery there may be some societal pressure to reproduce to keep the numbers on the up and up but with IVF and egg & sperm donations, I doubt it matters much, even less so in the Clans where sex and reproduction have been separated in the warrior caste

[Natasha Kerensky]

I’d say Mode 3/Situationally Permissive.

There should be no mental block against sex reassignment in Clan society, for a couple reasons.

One, trueborn phenotypes have displayed characteristics that cross gender norms for centuries: elemental women that have the large muscle-bound physiques of typically male linebackers or body builders and male pilots that have the slight gracile physiques of typically female long-distance runners or gymnasts.  These gender-crossing physiques are also widely distributed in the freeborn population as trueborns test out of the warrior caste, enter other castes, and have children naturally.

Two, sex identity has been completely divorced from reproduction among trueborns.  Biological males are routinely gene-mothers and biological females are routinely gene-fathers.

With that societal background, sex reassignment would seem pretty pedestrian to the Clan mind.  The question is whether the stratified Clan medical system, where access to more and better types of care is determined by your value to society and productivity, would restrict access to sex reassignment treatment based on social status.  A highly valued warrior or highly productive scientist or merchant probably has access to treatments, maybe including sex reassignment surgery and hormones, that a slacker or physically aged technician or laborer does not have access to.  The canon doesn’t tell us exactly where these lines are drawn, so we’d have to make it up.

It’s also possible that these lines are drawn differently in different Clans depending on how they treat their lower castes.  Wolves might make more treatments available to a wider range of castes than, say, the Falcons and Jags.

The same should be true of other gender-crossing expressions.  If someone wants to cross-dress, for example, the primary obstacle is probably the lack of resources allocated to personal expression at all in Clan society, rather than any mental block against such behavior in a society of female elementals and male gene-mothers.  Outside of warrior caste ceremonies, everyone seems to wear the same unisex fatigues, overalls, work suits, etc. in Clan society (and in BT in general outside the nobility).  It’s unclear whether fashion, makeup, etc. are even things in Clan society, but to the extent they are, the more valued or productive members of higher castes will probably have more access to them than the less valued or less productive members of lower castes.

Hope this helps.

[Kojak]

I’d say Mode 3/Situationally Permissive.

There should be no mental block against sex reassignment in Clan society, for a couple reasons.

One, trueborn phenotypes have displayed characteristics that cross gender norms for centuries: elemental women that have the large muscle-bound physiques of typically male linebackers or body builders and male pilots that have the slight gracile physiques of typically female long-distance runners or gymnasts.  These gender-crossing physiques are also widely distributed in the freeborn population as trueborns test out of the warrior caste, enter other castes, and have children naturally.

Two, sex identity has been completely divorced from reproduction among trueborns.  Biological males are routinely gene-mothers and biological females are routinely gene-fathers.

With that societal background, sex reassignment would seem pretty pedestrian to the Clan mind.  The question is whether the stratified Clan medical system, where access to more and better types of care is determined by your value to society and productivity, would restrict access to sex reassignment treatment based on social status.  A highly valued warrior or highly productive scientist or merchant probably has access to treatments, maybe including sex reassignment surgery and hormones, that a slacker or physically aged technician or laborer does not have access to.  The canon doesn’t tell us exactly where these lines are drawn, so we’d have to make it up.

It’s also possible that these lines are drawn differently in different Clans depending on how they treat their lower castes.  Wolves might make more treatments available to a wider range of castes than, say, the Falcons and Jags.

The same should be true of other gender-crossing expressions.  If someone wants to cross-dress, for example, the primary obstacle is probably the lack of resources allocated to personal expression at all in Clan society, rather than any mental block against such behavior in a society of female elementals and male gene-mothers.  Outside of warrior caste ceremonies, everyone seems to wear the same unisex fatigues, overalls, work suits, etc. in Clan society (and in BT in general outside the nobility).  It’s unclear whether fashion, makeup, etc. are even things in Clan society, but to the extent they are, the more valued or productive members of higher castes will probably have more access to them than the less valued or less productive members of lower castes.

Hope this helps.

Just wanted to throw in here that I think there's also the variable of the warrior caste's obsession with youth. I would not be surprised if, say, Hair Club for Trueborns had purchase among the officer corps (which is to say, the Clan's political elite).

[Maingunnery]

Just wanted to throw in here that I think there's also the variable of the warrior caste's obsession with youth. I would not be surprised if, say, Hair Club for Trueborns had purchase among the officer corps (which is to say, the Clan's political elite).

Their obsession is more with strength, if you look at various portraits it is clear that many of them are not pretty and they do not seem to mind scars all that much.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That seems to vary heavily depending on the artist.  Trueborn always seem to be noted as either being particularly attractive or particularly ugly in appearance.

[Jellico]

Lots of self expression here.

[cmerwin]

Just wanted to throw in here that I think there's also the variable of the warrior caste's obsession with youth. I would not be surprised if, say, Hair Club for Trueborns had purchase among the officer corps (which is to say, the Clan's political elite).

True, although there is also a pretty good chance that 1000 years from now they have figured out how to cut out the genes that cause pattern baldness. I hope!

[Natasha Kerensky]

Lots of self expression here.

I dunno.  I see a lot of battle dress (shoulder/knee pads), functional monochrome fatigues, and uniforms (Clan patches and Ebon Keshik pair on the left), and that’s about it.  The differences in color, dress, and patches seem based on Clan-affiliation, not personal expression.  Individualism seems limited to hairstyle, eyewear, and functional accessories (and I’m not even sure about some of that).

To be fair, I’d say the same thing about most art depicting Spheroids outside of criminals and nobility, too.  It’s understandable given that the focus of the game and universe is on militaries, not fashion houses and companies.  We get some style hints, like Lothians selling fashionable furs to Lyrans, but it’s far in the background.

To the OP’s question, there’s a Jade Falcon woman in the foreground of that art.  AFAICT, there’s no gender-identifying difference between her clothes and the clothes worn by the Diamond Shark male to her right and the Smoke Jaguar male to her left.  Everyone is just wearing generic male military fatigues/battle dress.  That’s different from, say, office attire in the real world today, where there are clear differences between suits for men and suits for women.  Or clothes for primary age school children.  My son wears monster truck shirts while the girl down the street wears unicorn shirts.  My point is that — while I don’t think there would be any issue with cross-dressing in Clan society given that just being trueborn or having a phenotype often involves crosses gender norms as we view them today — I’m not sure how one would express cross-dressing given the uniform and monotone nature of everyday Clan (and most BT) clothing.  I’m exaggerating a bit, but seems as if one must participate in a Clan trueborn ceremony (or be a Spheroid noble or belong to a criminal gang) to express one’s gender, whether cis- or cross-.  A drag show would be a hopeless cause from what we see of everyday gendered fashion in Clan (and most BT) society!

The namesake of my screen name is the exception that proves the rule.  She played into her femme fatale persona for propoganda purposes with cheesecake photos in revealing female attire.  And her Clan ceremonial dress was obviously feminine.  But Joanna?  Malvina above?  Tiaret?  I don’t recall any feminine attire or accessories in their art or descriptive text.  Again, I’m exaggerating, but it would appear that the only character available to the Clan equivalent of RuPaul’s Drag Race is Natasha Kerensky in ceremonial attire!

FWIW…

[tassa_kay]

it would appear that the only character available to the Clan equivalent of RuPaul’s Drag Race is Natasha Kerensky in ceremonial attire!

The artwork of Natalie Breen in "Bloodright" more than gives Natasha a run for her money in that department. She was giving serious Mad Max serpent queen couture.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Thinking about the possibility of hair removal (which ought to be a lot faster and easier than it is in real life) got me wondering about trueborn and body hair.  Seems like being gene-edited for significantly reduced body hair would be something that was already common among trueborn just because less/no body hair would confer a slight advantage in the hot cockpit of a mech.  Even the trueborn characters who've been shown with facial hair in artwork seem to have rather reduced amounts of it from what I remember.

[Jellico]

Americans miss out by lacking school uniforms. You can personalize them a lot whilst keeping within the rules. Even simple pushing your socks down like a rebel.

Heading deep into the weeds here, what makes a person in Clan culture attractive to their intended target? Go back a thousand years from today all those manly cavalry men need tights (even high heels) for riding like a boss, so having nice legs was very much a plus.
But then other things are much more primal related to basic stuff like ovulation or child birth. Depending upon which buttons you want to push they will always be part of attraction. So artificial versions like masculine and feminine make-up will remain cheap and easy options.
If you have any older mainland Chinese relatives it could be worth asking what they used during the Cultural Revolution when everyone was stuck in Mao suits.

Thinking about the possibility of hair removal (which ought to be a lot faster and easier than it is in real life) got me wondering about trueborn and body hair.  Seems like being gene-edited for significantly reduced body hair would be something that was already common among trueborn just because less/no body hair would confer a slight advantage in the hot cockpit of a mech.  Even the trueborn characters who've been shown with facial hair in artwork seem to have rather reduced amounts of it from what I remember.

Hair is often to reduce friction or to trap smell.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Hair retains heat and makes sweating less efficient.

[phoenixalpha]

Hair retains heat and makes sweating less efficient.

I would also say that hair would possibly interfere with sensors in a neurohelmet and/or elemental armour so therefor hair would be a hinderance (see Lyran mechwarrior hairstyles for example where bits of the hair were shaved right down for better contact

[cmerwin]

The artwork of Natalie Breen in "Bloodright" more than gives Natasha a run for her money in that department. She was giving serious Mad Max serpent queen couture." 

The one on page 9? I never even realized that was Natalie Breen, but you're right. Spot on description. The incredibly practical spiked shoulder epaulet and the gravity defying snake somehow going up her "cape".

[Clan Diamond Shark holovid presenter] "Clanners? What do you ask is the hot new look for 3053? Well, look no further than Steel Viper's own Natalie Breen sporting serpent queen couture!"

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I would also say that hair would possibly interfere with sensors in a neurohelmet and/or elemental armour so therefor hair would be a hinderance (see Lyran mechwarrior hairstyles for example where bits of the hair were shaved right down for better contact

Yeah, though you still get the occasional mechwarrior who's depicted as having big 80s hair.  Anyway, enough of the off-topic musings on my part.

[parable]

Coming across this thread in progress has honestly just blown me away.  Great analyses by all.  All that said: in my mind, the ideal Clanner is nigh-genderless, and while some might go for HRT, I doubt they (in general) care about their specific ports and jacks--sex is just a bonding and recreational exercise after all, incest isn't a thing; to me I have trouble imagining that a Clan Warrior really cares about anything other than attraction.  If someone has the right input/output or physical characteristics, you ask them to recreate (shamelessly stolen from Farscape, rhymes with procreate), if not then you don't.  I have always been a bit irked by the lack of same-sex coupling in the Clans--I know a lot of it is due to the authorship and intended audience but it seems that it would be widespread: no sexual taboos, an aversion to 'natural' pregnancy, et cetera. 

to contribute to the thread as is...

Hair retains heat and makes sweating less efficient.

It (body hair at least) allows sweat to wick and spread and prevents skin-on-skin chafing in areas it might otherwise be a problem.  I'd assume anyone who's removed body hair has experienced the pimples and rashes that occur when sweaty skin rubs against itself with no buffer.  Now, for Neurohelmet purposes, I'd imagine that they'd follow the ExoSquad example: stylized haircuts that emphasize the parts shaved down to ensure a good connection.

[tassa_kay]

The one on page 9? I never even realized that was Natalie Breen, but you're right. Spot on description. The incredibly practical spiked shoulder epaulet and the gravity defying snake somehow going up her "cape".

I think the snake is actually embroidered onto her cape. Either way, she’s fabulous and I think I (platonically, as I’m not hetero) love her. We need more flamboyant Clanners, damn it.

[Jellico]

Technically the neurohelmet contacts stopped being a problem during the Star League. Inner Sphere technical regression brought it back.
That said, the hair style did become fashionable as a symbol of being a mechwarrior. I forget where it is still fashionable.

[AlphaMirage]

The Lyrans had a distinctive hairstyle based on how their neurohelmet 's contacts linked in

[Von Jankmon]

I really doubt the clans are into LGBTQ+ issues.  The faction that is most likely to go that way are the Canopians.  Issues like gender identity is a resource drain, in a society which has an emphasis on centralised resource management you would be harshly expected to 'get over it' most likely.  If you are no longer allowed your own surname, it is likely you wont get to choose your pronouns either. However the universe is a big place, there is room for anything.

That being said,  three points of note.  First, if you have a bloodname, you will not be able to change your gender because the clan owns your procreative rights.
Second, social issues in Battletech are largely airbrushed over, so to avoid cultural divide issues.  Religious wars do not involve real world religions, and ethnic conflicts occur between factions without direct reference to earth origin or ethnicity. The reasons for these are hopefully obvious and do not require explanation. Battletech preceded the current cultural milieu, but the current policy of avoiding political or social allegory to the current age remains and it is likely that divisive social issues will be kept away from the canon.
Third and consequently, this vacuum enables you, the reader, to decide where your own canon stands on modern personal issues.

[cmerwin]

I think the snake is actually embroidered onto her cape. Either way, she’s fabulous and I think I (platonically, as I’m not hetero) love her. We need more flamboyant Clanners, damn it.

Agreed. Where is the Zardoz (Zed) of the Clans? Where?!?

[Liam's Ghost]

Honestly, the clans are bad people, and their population is largely treated as a resource.

At best, they aren't going to care how you identify or what sort of partner you prefer, so long as you make your contribution to the clan. But they aren't going to go to any effort beyond that. Because you are replaceable, and if your "curious quirks" compromise your ability to contribute to the clan. Then you can just be replaced.

(in the lower castes, where childbearing is still primarily done the natural way, this includes your ability to produce offspring when required and with who you are required to do so. Since you can make a trueborn from same sex pairings, this probably doesn't apply to warriors)

Because the individual is in no way important to the clan, unless they are a warrior at the top of their game who can still consistently win glory for their clan. And even then, only so long as they stay on top. If a ristar wants gender affirming care, then they might be able to get it, so long as they continue to win glory for the clan.

Seriously, clan culture normalizes systemic sexual abuse (through the ability of a commander or sibko trainer to demand sex from an inferior). There is nothing healthy about how the clans do things.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't recall ever seeing anything state that commanders or sibko trainers could demand sex from a subordinate.

[Liam's Ghost]

I don't recall ever seeing anything state that commanders or sibko trainers could demand sex from a subordinate.

It was literally a minor plotline during the first book in the Aiden Pryde trilogy. Joanna commands Aiden and several of his sibmates to her quarters repeatedly.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm not even sure I actually read that novel.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the details from the early Clan lore that got shuffled off into the "we're going to pretend it didn't happen" corner.

[Liam's Ghost]

I'm not even sure I actually read that novel.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the details from the early Clan lore that got shuffled off into the "we're going to pretend it didn't happen" corner.

Honestly, I doubt it. Clan society, particularly among the warrior cast, is structured to try to strip the intimacy out of sex, and Clan warriors are taught to treat it as no big deal (whether or not they can actually be psychologically wired to think that way).

And... um... not to put to fine a point on it, but clan society encourages the strong to take what they want from the weak. It's literally a society whose leaders are brought into adulthood through a deliberate system of relentless pressure, competition, and abuse. It would be naive to assume that the clans somehow limit their conduct based on a moral regard for something that they have been systematically trying to trivialize.

To expand on the main discussion, I'll also add something I found in the Warrior's of Kerensky book: For the lower castes refusal to accept an arranged marriage can result in penalties ranging from fines to chemical reprograming, torture, or even execution depending on the clan.

[parable]

Agreed. Where is the Zardoz (Zed) of the Clans? Where?!?

You know full well it's Clan Nova Cat's ceremonial garb and I am working on putting that outfit together.  A leather cat headpiece with quills is costly and time-consuming to source.

edit:

To expand on the main discussion, I'll also add something I found in the Warrior's of Kerensky book: For the lower castes refusal to accept an arranged marriage can result in penalties ranging from fines to chemical reprograming, torture, or even execution depending on the clan.

It's very reminiscent of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.  Everyone necessarily belongs to one another, exclusive intimacy is a subversion of Clanlike thought.  But I think that level of control is restricted to the lower castes, because the resources for truebirth are of course allocated to the Warrior and, perhaps the Scientist castes.  If you're a Warrior, while it'd be gauche to impregnate or be impregnated, you have an exception built in due to your caste.  The general facts do go towards the brutality of the Clans, but it'd be a bit presumptive to say how they control their serfs reflects on how they treat their juniors and new recruits.

[Liam's Ghost]

It's very reminiscent of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.  Everyone necessarily belongs to one another, exclusive intimacy is a subversion of Clanlike thought.  But I think that level of control is restricted to the lower castes, because the resources for truebirth are of course allocated to the Warrior and, perhaps the Scientist castes.  If you're a Warrior, while it'd be gauche to impregnate or be impregnated, you have an exception built in due to your caste.  The general facts do go towards the brutality of the Clans, but it'd be a bit presumptive to say how they control their serfs reflects on how they treat their juniors and new recruits.

I mean, how they treat their juniors and new recruits is kinda laid out in black and white in the novel series meant to introduce us to life in the clans. No presumption required.

[parable]

I mean, how they treat their juniors and new recruits is kinda laid out in black and white in the novel series meant to introduce us to life in the clans. No presumption required.

I suppose I need to read more Battletech novels then.  Definitely have a few queued up, I suppose this is the impetus I needed to actually start reading them.

[tassa_kay]

For the lower castes refusal to accept an arranged marriage can result in penalties ranging from fines to chemical reprograming, torture, or even execution depending on the clan.

And to add to this point, this isn't some outdated bit of Clan lore, either. As noted in Dominions Divided, the Rasalhague Dominion (which is easily the most socially liberal of Clans, given their merger with their Spheroid populations) literally just did away with their eugenically-arranged marriages as recently as 3137. It's also one of the reasons that the Freeminder movement exists in the first place. Which to me indicates that this is probably still the norm amongst the other Clans, with the possible exception of the Scorpion Empire.

[Alan Grant]

There is a line in the book Warriors of Kerensky that is helpful here. Page 52.

While the Inner Sphere regards sex as an act of intimacy that is part of a relationship. The warrior caste regard it as part of a friendship. Coupling with friends, comrades, is fairly routine.

(To be sure, I might put Joanna's actions with the cadets in a different category. But as someone else noted, warriors are weird. Power dynamics, including having and exercising power over others, is an accepted and even encouraged part of life in some ways. Clan warriors also do have hierarchy but also blur the lines of their professional and interpersonal lives quite a bit. Cadets are also basically not treated like civilian children, they are forced to grow up very quickly and assimilate into Clan warrior culture. By my eyes in the real world, its bad behavior, even illegal behavior, to a Clan warrior's eyes? It might be, or it might not. If I was a BT writer today, I probably wouldn't plug that behavior into some fiction I was writing today, because of how the READERS would perceive it, as well as how uncomfortable it might make me feel as the author. But truth be told, if you are willing to embrace the uncomfortable, there is a slimmer of a chance here that Joanna's actions were regarded as normal, due to cultural differences. However, I don't recall the novel where this was depicted making that clear at all, so it was very much left up to reader interpretration. If I was advising that author today, who was writing that novel today, I would suggest plugging in some clarity on this front, perhaps through a 3rd party warrior, like a superior of Joanna's, somehow addressing how normal or abnormal her behavior was. Because the lack of that clarity makes it difficult to interpret what you are reading and how you are supposed to feel about it.)

Pivoting to lower caste marriages and families...

Among the lower castes, the respect for the arranged marriages is there, it represents the lowest form of genetics, orchestrated by the scientist caste. You are supposed to reproduce with the assigned marital partner. But it says that the Clans don't hold the institution of marriage in the same regard, and so coupling outside of the marriage is rather common by Inner Sphere standards. As long as precautions are taken and it doesn't result in offspring, it isn't breaking the rules, and the scientists tend to "turn a blind eye" toward it.

Page 37 also tells us that many marriages are formed the conventional way (i.e. meet someone, fall in love etc.) and the scientist caste really just rubber stamp approves those.

The conclusion I'm left with based on that book is that the Clans really don't like you to be single and not reproducing. If you meet someone fairly young (say as a teenager) within your caste and decide you want to marry and reproduce with that person, the Clans are likely to approve that. If you haven't found a marital partner within a certain timeframe (years have gone by...), a spouse will be assigned to you. That's for life. So you are supposed to be married and reproducing. If you are coupling with other people outside of the marriage, that's fine in the eyes of the Clan, just no children.

We also know that outside of Clan Ghost Bear, most children are raised in community creches.

WoK tells us in the Ghost Bear section that the Ghost Bear lower caste families are closer to the Inner Sphere norm. It says instead of children being raised in community creches, they remain with their parents and those community creches more closely resemble daycare. The parents take care of their children as much as they can while still performing their duties.

So what that tells me about the rest of the Clans is that most lower caste Clan family life is very different. You are reproducing and your children are being sent off to a community creche as their permanent home and education facility.

That makes sense when you consider that most lower caste children are tested at a young age and their caste assignment determined them (source WoK education section). So, if you are laborer parents and a child of yours is assigned to the scientist caste, that individual's life, education and everything else is going to look very different from your own, even from a young age starting as early as the young childhood education they will receive. In essence the Clan is going to pull that child away from their laborer parents and start to put them with other scientist caste children and adults as soon as possible.

[Jazzhands Licker]

As someone who is reading the Legend of the Jade Falcon Trilogy right now.  In Chapter 8 of  Ter Roshak talks about how he, in one of his first person POV chapters, could use his command privilege to order any of the sibko cadets or even Joanne to sleep with him, and he complains how much Joanne prefers the young cadets.

Now this book is written from the point of a particular training cadre on a particular planet dealing only with Jade Falcons.  However, I do find it creepy, and I certainly have zero desire to "defend" any Clan actions.  I just consider the Clans different and will play them in games without worrying about who's "bad" or "good".  It's a game.

[BrianDavion]

You know full well it's Clan Nova Cat's ceremonial garb and I am working on putting that outfit together.  A leather cat headpiece with quills is costly and time-consuming to source.

edit:
It's very reminiscent of Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.  Everyone necessarily belongs to one another, exclusive intimacy is a subversion of Clanlike thought.  But I think that level of control is restricted to the lower castes, because the resources for truebirth are of course allocated to the Warrior and, perhaps the Scientist castes.  If you're a Warrior, while it'd be gauche to impregnate or be impregnated, you have an exception built in due to your caste.  The general facts do go towards the brutality of the Clans, but it'd be a bit presumptive to say how they control their serfs reflects on how they treat their juniors and new recruits.

you're assuming warriors aren't restricted by the system as well... that's not born out by what we actually see. the latest issue of Sharpnal actually deals with a clan warrior having a freebirth child, it's made pretty clear this is.... something of a scandal

[Liam's Ghost]

Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

It's already canon that Clan warriors are given birth control implants to prevent them from getting pregnant.  Don't think that's something they can just get around.

[parable]

Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

I'd imagine that most, if not all, Clan warriors would be aghast at the idea of forgoing combat, trials, and training for any reason, let alone one that could've been outsourced to an Iron Womb.  Black mark on the Codex aside, they'd be abdicating their very reason for existence--again, as you say, for a personal indulgence.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

you're assuming warriors aren't restricted by the system as well... that's not born out by what we actually see. the latest issue of Sharpnal actually deals with a clan warrior having a freebirth child, it's made pretty clear this is.... something of a scandal

Purely from a career standpoint, a clan warrior that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term is choosing to take themselves out of service for months for a personal indulgence. There's no way that doesn't seriously harm their codex.

It is/was a scandal and it certainly does affect warrior's codex and career but it definitely does happen

We have example of Smoke Jaguar mech pilot who gave birth to two or three kids (ilClan RecGuide)

Other warriors were clutching their pearls but she kept doing her thing anyway and was still piloting Stone Rhino

So if it flies with Jaguars it definitely flies with other Clans even more frequently

[tassa_kay]

It's already canon that Clan warriors are given birth control implants to prevent them from getting pregnant.  Don't think that's something they can just get around.

And yet Diana Pryde happened. Though I suppose she might have washed out of the warrior caste before she got implanted.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And yet Diana Pryde happened.

Because Peri figured out how to turn it off before she flunked out of being a warrior.  It was how she ended up in the Scientist caste.  The novels repeatedly stressed just how unique the situation was.

[tassa_kay]

We have example of Smoke Jaguar mech pilot who gave birth to two or three kids (ilClan RecGuide)

Other warriors were clutching their pearls but she kept doing her thing anyway and was still piloting Stone Rhino

What RecGuide is this in? It's certainly not in the Stone Rhino one.

[AlphaMirage]

It would actually be dumb to completely prevent births of the women of the Warrior Caste by giving them permanent birth control. However the men could all get vasectomies which would allow them to couple as much as they please without affecting their performance. Very few individuals make it to their final Trial of Position. You are far more likely to be removed for failing to measure up as Peri had. Trueborn female rejects might even be preferred partners for the more eugenically minded Scientists as they are more likely to produce 'superior' freeborns (like Diana) that could have a claim to a bloodname (although no clan would ever conduct such a trial).

Now could they dose them with the right kinds that it make pregnancy unlikely for a time until their system corrected? That's probably more likely.
Accelerating that recovery process could be what Peri did in order to have Diana as soon after her reassignment as she had (the improbability thing). Because I don't remember if its dated but Diana was born in time to take part in Tukayyid so she must have been 17-22 in 3052 and Peri was decanted in 3012.

She was I believe even meant to pair with one of her colleagues but chose Aidan instead.

[tassa_kay]

It would actually be dumb to completely prevent births of the women of the Warrior Caste by giving them permanent birth control.

Not being sarcastic here, but why would that be dumb? Between the Clans keeping all of their warriors' genetic material on file, having the iron womb technology, and knowing that the scientists perform both sanctioned and unsanctioned breeding combinations, I don't really see a downside to them doing something like this if they so chose.

[rebs]

Besides, if Peri "turned off" the birth control mechanism, it's clearly not very permanent.  It's simply automatic until altered. 

[AlphaMirage]

Not being sarcastic here, but why would that be dumb? Between the Clans keeping all of their warriors' genetic material on file, having the iron womb technology, and knowing that the scientists perform both sanctioned and unsanctioned breeding combinations, I don't really see a downside to them doing something like this if they so chose.

Because you are wasting genetic potential and Iron Wombs like Jumpship Collars or Warships are precious and limited resources to everyone. Testdowns aren't going to be added to the selection criteria for Trueborn, only Bloodnames get that honor, but they can be repurposed.

If every sibko is 50-50 m/f and only 3-10 individuals make it through the selection process you could have something like 70-80 testdowns (minus some casualties) half of which could be women that would be 'improving the genetic health' of your freeborn population each cycle. Scale that up to however many sibkos are bred each year and that's a lot of waste that could be converted to gain by simply letting their IUDs lapse or whatever over time.

Most of that selection is probably done pre-puberty (probably at least 70% with multiple early sibkos merging to a bigger training sibko) however so it would only be the women that were exceptional that would be given the birth control. These women are exceptional, and thus even though they might not make it to the end that doesn't mean they can't produce exceptional freeborn offspring in whatever Caste they are reassigned to and thus it would be a waste to render them unable to do so.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Because Peri figured out how to turn it off before she flunked out of being a warrior.  It was how she ended up in the Scientist caste.  The novels repeatedly stressed just how unique the situation was.

Actually, it was probably turned off (or the implant ran out of the drug) when she was in the scientist caste and met up with Aidan after he failed his first ToP.

However the men could all get vasectomies which would allow them to couple as much as they please without affecting their performance.

If they tested down from the warrior caste and need to have kids the old fashioned way? I doubt they would get vasectomies for this reason, and the clans probably will prohibit it.

[AlphaMirage]

If they tested down from the warrior caste and need to have kids the old fashioned way? I doubt they would get vasectomies for this reason, and the clans probably will prohibit it.

You can reverse it, there are few side effects, and the recovery time is swift. The whole process (or a reversal) could easily be conducted in transit to a new system and it requires no ongoing maintenance.  They can freely couple with their female colleagues with no harm to performance or bonding to either party. If they can clone and install eyeballs a simple procedure like that (or direct extraction of genetic material from the testes for IVF should a reversal fail or be deemed unsuitable) would be child's play.

Additionally hormonal birth control does play havoc with female biochemistry affecting their performance which means you get a 'lesser,' more 'artificial' candidate whose status needs to be constantly maintained. One would hope that future methods have less side effects but as you need two to tango they are the one that stands to lose the greatest potential via pregnancy and impose an ongoing cost. Thus the one less affected (males) should be the logical choice within the vacuum of cultural norms.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

What RecGuide is this in? It's certainly not in the Stone Rhino one.

Made a mistake, it's Ostscout, solahama MechWarrior Terrelise

Why the hell did I remember Stone Rhino? Need to read those again, memory is getting hazy

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It is/was a scandal and it certainly does affect warrior's codex and career but it definitely does happen

We have example of Smoke Jaguar mech pilot who gave birth to two or three kids (ilClan RecGuide)

Other warriors were clutching their pearls but she kept doing her thing anyway and was still piloting Stone Rhino

So if it flies with Jaguars it definitely flies with other Clans even more frequently

Two kids, and she was already a solahma who was assigned to an infantry formation on Huntress, so her career couldn't have gotten more dead without outright ejecting her from the Warrior Caste.  She had to fight to get back into a mech later, once Russell Howell got some captured Inner Sphere machines shipped back to Huntress.  She wasn't piloting a mech when she got pregnant.

[Metallgewitter]

Since we came to the talk of the arranged marriages one point should be considered:

the traditional marriage is more or less "dead" within the Clans. Nicolas Kerensky introduced several reforms when he prepared his Clans and one of them (which is still active) is the arranged marriage system. Though the reason is different now. When Kerensky introduced it it was to produce more children for his society and it wasn't mandatory. Men and women could volunteer for "selective matchmaking" based on genertic compatability rather then an emotional one and if they produced viable children they would be rewarded with then scarce resources. Scientist noted that while the amount of births skyrocketed traditional family values died. Next was the fostering of children taking the children "away" from their parents. Again, a way to eliminate the traditional family. And of course later came the artifical wombs. There is one diary entry from a Mechwarrior who says "Now the lab coats are calling the shots. We don't need love and we don't even need sex. Someone should have burned Darwin at the stake when he had the chance". Of course we don't know if this measure was only temporary to swell the population or if this was meant to be permanent. There wasn't even a divide between Trueborn and Freeborn at first. Kind of funny how Trueborn often regard themsaelves as superior when they are all descending from freeborn humans just with some genetic modification / purification

[beachhead1985]

I think it's a fictional universe and as long as you confine your take on it to your AU and your games, no worries.

But, as for the Clans as a whole...

TLDR: Rather than being a fertile field for those on the LGBT+ spectrum, I think the Clans are more likely to be a fountain of sexualized evil and in fact; quite down on the variant gender expressions we see today.

***

I've been looking a lot at the Clans and their cultural development for my Der Tag AU and I'm not sure all that sunny an outlook is likely. I take pride in a realistic approach to the setting and the Clans are a whole bucket of bad news for anything and everything sexual. In Der Tag, I have to have them go through a transformation to a stable state that is not going to just be a factory for sexually-abused/abusive psychopaths unleashed on battlefields, because I think we've seen the limits of what can be done with that in the failed invasion.

The most-recent study IRL I am aware of indicates that sexuality has both genetic and environmental markers. The environmental portion will be most unkind in the Clans.

I think if the Clans could have just edited out sexuality from their trueborn breeding program, then they would have. The writers certainly left enough weirdness in, so that was a choice, likely for relatability. Go read Haldeman's Forever War/Peace/Free to see what a masterpiece of alienation you can produce by creating a universe designed *not* to relate to the reader.

I sincerely worry for the future of the Clans as a faction, if this is a rabbit hole TPTB go down, because as-is, they have created a culture shockingly likely to condone and normalized sexually abusive behaviour at all levels. Frankly; with the normalized putative incest of the Sibko program, it's bad enough from where we are now.

Looking at the Clans, I think that gender is something that is going to be more or less irrelevant to them and in a very negative sense. A Clansman (gender-neutral term) is going to see themselves not as man/woman/other, but as Warrior/Scientist/Merchant/Tech/Labourer. Achieving sexual gratification and physical attraction will be secondary considerations. Some are probably even effectively preferentially-asexual through a rigorus regimen of self-denial.

Within that spectrum, however; what we would relate to as pan-sexuality, or alternatively: an attraction to competency or achievement would be much more common than what we have now.

That's fine for peers.

It's less-good for subordinates and lower-castemen (gender-neutral term), where the Clan-system is wide-open for abuse. Now, it may be arguably written as culturally-frowned upon (but I've read all the original novels and a few SBs and I don't see that in place at all), but in the Clans, rank seem to 'hath it's privileges and these will be weighed against the social and practical counter-weights of saying "no" if a person wants to.

That comes in to this conversation when your superior in rank or caste wants to get off and you don't want to help them. Clan culture is going to thus lean to a balance where one's own gender and preferences are less-relevant to this situation than your station in life. So at that level; I think the Clans would be a "Hole is a hole" people with a heavily caveated understanding of consent.

The implications for the trial system are disturbing.

But the OP mentioned surgery. Probably not.

I think that any Clan would call that a waste. Throughout the books we have many references to Clansmen of all castes looking at nearly any degree of extraneous attention to one's appearance as a disgraceful vanity and that attitude will extend to any form of body/gender dismorphia being treated as an example of a genetic/mental defect. Such a person will be quickly consigned to Dezga status, solahma or even the dark caste.

But...what about a trial for it? Maybe. But there are going to be limits, stark and low-bar. Clan medicine may theoretically trump anything else going, but it will not practically extend to anything cosmetic. Your body needs to work to serve the Clan, not your psyche and anything that compromises that needlessly will be prohibited. The base MedTechs will be able to handle skin-grafts and maybe cloned limbs and internal organs, but not gender-afirming care.

The Clans probably aren't even going to be practical for cross-dressing, due to how they value conformity and are generally down on extensive personal possessions. A culture that doesn't have time for physical beauty won't have time for anyone's unusual wardrobe, either. But if your dress is practical? Maybe. Merc units or Solaris are better options. As far back as MW1 (the game), we had NPCs who wore gimp-suits in the cockpit and Sorenson's Sabres (Kurita regulars) gave us Vernon Morrone, with his 24/7 full-face mask. So there are indications that there is more tolerance there.

I considered writing more about the Sibkos here...but I'm just not up for it. This stuff takes it out of me.

Suffice to say that from just what we have in the Jade Falcon books, the Sibkos are a factory for monsters. The whole system is rife for abuse. Particularly when looked at through a multi-generational lens and maybe that's part of why decent warriors don't want to go there as staff. Gender Identity and sexuality in the Clans is something that is going to be shaped for Trueborns in the Sibkos. Revoltingly often by their instructors. We see this with Joanna and Aiden in the Jade Phoenix trilogy.

Joanna probably waited a lot longer than other Falconers would have before just ordering him to her bed. That this can happen at all in Clan culture has chilling implications, but it comes down to a culture where your sexuality and gender identity can be forcibly adapted to the situation by your superiors.

Apply the same notion to subordinate castes, but figure that "Slumming it" likely has social/sexual implications in the Clans comparable to slave owners taking privileges with their slaves throughout history.

It's not a good scene all around, but it may explain some otherwise inexplicably bad actors at any/all levels of Clan Society. One of the main limitations of human depravity being that people tend not to limit their depraved behaviour to one small aspect of their lives, but tend to be dysfunctional in other areas as well. Which makes the physical punishment and control of the trail system seem all that much more attractive as a practical tool. Consider further the implications for a system where even the very good actors feel compelled to turn a blind eye to these activities because "it is how it has always been", or "the system works".

So what I have done in my AU is to use the Warrior Caste and trials system to bring back a kind of stable family unit (and also a degree of petty nobility) to this corner of the setting to allow for the potential for reform and recovery in the years post-Jihad, without changing what the Clans are, conceptually. I still don't have a way to bring extensive sexual/gender identity variation into the Clans plausibly, but that hasn't been a goal for me, either. I did make Stone and Lear a couple though, so there is that if it matters to you. But then, my Magistracy's cultural zeitgeist is autogynophilia, so that may be a wash anyways.

Bottom line is that with the setting *as-written*, I would lament for the fate of any person born into the Clans, but particularly someone who feels trapped in the wrong body. Hell; "Trapped in the wrong caste" is no picnic, either. I'd imagine that the particularly-variant phenotypes have similar issues as-well.

Unless your kink (YKIOKWM) is a pansexual dominance hierarchy with a sexually-available underclass, where your own sexuality is subject to the whims of your superiors, the Clans are going to be pretty rough feed in that respect.

And if you're wondering how I got here, as I said; I read all the pre-dark-age novels, and a number of sourcebooks. I'm a student of human nature, including crime and indoctrination and I just took the Clans as-written, particularly by Stackpole and added human nature to that.

I'll book-end this by reiterating that if this is something important to you, then by-all-means have it in your games, your fanfic, your AU. The universe is here for you to enjoy and variant sexualities are going to be a part of an adult version of that universe. The novels being written to YA-standards doesn't stop us from extrapolating from known data. I am not against any one individual, but I am against retcons; so the negativity you sense here is that attitude; I don't want to see the Clans RetConned for any reason. I don't want to see any RetCons for any reason. I think that if we start applying adult logic and sexuality to the Clans, we are going to end up with a morass of evil RetCon-bait. To avoid that happening, I'd prefer TPTB steer clear of exploring this aspect of the Clans as-written.

[tassa_kay]

To add a little point to this point, which I largely agree with, even as recently as the novel "Jaguar's Leap", we saw a bondsman that viewed his body as his bondholder's to do with as she will sexually. So I wouldn't say the thing with Joanna ordering people to her bed is some out-of-date bit of canon, but instead is the norm.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

...I think the Clans are more likely to be a fountain of sexualized evil and in fact; quite down on the variant gender expressions we see today.

***

......

I sincerely worry for the future of the Clans as a faction, if this is a rabbit hole TPTB go down, because as-is, they have created a culture shockingly likely to condone and normalized sexually abusive behaviour at all levels.  .....
....

Sexualized evil and normalized sexually abusive behavior was a staple of feudal societies which spanned majority of human history and which in-universe have officially become standard default again

Therefore our worry for the future should extend to all BT factions not just Clans

[tassa_kay]

Sexualized evil and normalized sexually abusive behavior was a staple of feudal societies which spanned majority of human history and which in-universe have officially become standard default again

Therefore our worry for the future should extend to all BT factions not just Clans

That's... not what feudalism is in the BattleTech universe. Like, at all. I suggest reading page 4 of Era Digest: Age of War to get the actual definition of feudalism as it pertains to this setting, because it's not at all what you're suggesting.

There is exactly zero evidence that BattleTech's neo-feudalism has resulted in normalized, societal-level sexual abuse. In fact, the only non-Clan canon examples I can think of off the top of my head that involve sexual abuse (Caleb's rape of Danai, Daoshen's incestuous abuse of Ilsa) are very, very frowned upon in-universe and not considered "the norm".

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I remember it being a rather frequent topic in Victor Milan's novels.

[parable]

Sexualized evil and normalized sexually abusive behavior was a staple of feudal societies which spanned majority of human history and which in-universe have officially become standard default again

Therefore our worry for the future should extend to all BT factions not just Clans

While true, very few in-universe factions are as dogmatic about the idea that "your entire existence is solely a means to support the greater whole" as the Clans.  Well, maybe the Capellans.  Yes, basically all Battletech factions are likely fertile breeding grounds for monstrous sexual exploitation and violence, I'd put it on a spectrum, and the Clans are nearly the worst of the lot (on a Clan-by-Clan basis, Ghost Bear probably isn't too bad), with the Marian Hegemony or Tortuga Dominions taking last place in the "How bad is sexual violence in this faction, sort descending" ranks.

but returning to beachhhead1985's point--the Clans sort for horribly abusive behavior at all levels already.  We know (bona fides: studied psych and education) that physical violence as a punitive tactic, especially against children, causes problems with violence, impulse control, and IIRC even cognitive impairment.  Interpersonal intimacy and trust, sexual or platonic, are necessary for human mental health in almost all circumstances.  The constant competitive and zero-sum environment most Clan warriors live in is a fertile breeding ground for PTSD and anxiety disorders.  Either the Clans don't care that they're making unstable, paranoid, trauma cases, or the universe has been written in such a way where, in at least one way, the Clans are right.  In the Nova Cat general we were discussing the Mystic caste, and my takeaway was that their training would create feral children, trauma responses wrapped in a human form, or absolute sociopaths.  Instead we have traumatized and callous but largely stable individuals who attain almost supernatural analytical abilities from their ordeal.
I think that in general, the psychological ramifications of Clan life are just left unexplored so we can have technologically advanced fascist furries in giant robots stunting on/getting stomped by (depending on the POV of the story) foreign-culture cosplaying feudal empires in less technologically advanced giant robots.  Hence why I like exploring it, it's an open field, but I don't think it'll translate into the fiction anytime soon.

Also, your recommendation of Haldeman's Forever War is aces--there's a Franco-Belgian bande dessinée with script and dialogue by Haldeman himself that's a fantastic adaptation, if anyone prefers a comic book to a novel.  And yes, the late scene where Mandella discovers humans have become a post-gender hive mind and he realizes there's no place for him there, even though it's objectively a better society for humanity is a masterwork in alienation and what one might call absolute culture shock.  Anywho, there's my .002 C-bills.

[tassa_kay]

but returning to beachhhead1985's point--the Clans sort for horribly abusive behavior at all levels already.  We know (bona fides: studied psych and education) that physical violence as a punitive tactic, especially against children, causes problems with violence, impulse control, and IIRC even cognitive impairment.  Interpersonal intimacy and trust, sexual or platonic, are necessary for human mental health in almost all circumstances.  The constant competitive and zero-sum environment most Clan warriors live in is a fertile breeding ground for PTSD and anxiety disorders.  Either the Clans don't care that they're making unstable, paranoid, trauma cases, or the universe has been written in such a way where, in at least one way, the Clans are right.  In the Nova Cat general we were discussing the Mystic caste, and my takeaway was that their training would create feral children, trauma responses wrapped in a human form, or absolute sociopaths.  Instead we have traumatized and callous but largely stable individuals who attain almost supernatural analytical abilities from their ordeal.
I think that in general, the psychological ramifications of Clan life are just left unexplored so we can have technologically advanced fascist furries in giant robots stunting on/getting stomped by (depending on the POV of the story) foreign-culture cosplaying feudal empires in less technologically advanced giant robots.  Hence why I like exploring it, it's an open field, but I don't think it'll translate into the fiction anytime soon.

Malvina Hazen's entire character arc has been exactly what you're saying here: her horrendous abuse during her childhood years in the sibko shaped her into the absolute monster she became. "A Rending of Falcons" also shows a scene on Sudeten of a bunch of sibko kids kicking and stomping on one they'd singled out, while their minders stood by and did nothing.

[parable]

Malvina Hazen's entire character arc has been exactly what you're saying here: her horrendous abuse during her childhood years in the sibko shaped her into the absolute monster she became. "A Rending of Falcons" also shows a scene on Sudeten of a bunch of sibko kids kicking and stomping on one they'd singled out, while their minders stood by and did nothing.

Again, I really need to read more of the novels, but I only started about a year or two ago.  So sibko training is a broken system: meant to produce elite, fanatically devoted warriors, actually produces feral sociopaths.  But since it's sociopaths all the way down to Nicolas Kerensky, no one sees the problem.  A wonder that there aren't more Malvinas Hazen out there.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

That's... not what feudalism is in the BattleTech universe. Like, at all. I suggest reading page 4 of Era Digest: Age of War to get the actual definition of feudalism as it pertains to this setting, because it's not at all what you're suggesting.

There is exactly zero evidence that BattleTech's neo-feudalism has resulted in normalized, societal-level sexual abuse. In fact, the only non-Clan canon examples I can think of off the top of my head that involve sexual abuse (Caleb's rape of Danai, Daoshen's incestuous abuse of Ilsa) are very, very frowned upon in-universe and not considered "the norm".

Let's put it in more practical terms:

While on paper every girl/boy of inappropriate age is fully in their right to refuse advances of some geezer with surname Davion, in practice they would be expected to simply close their eyes and think of Federated Suns

Feel free to insert any faction or ruling house of your choosing

People who own entire planets/systems/interstellar nations are not free of debauchery and corruption

Even a random nobody in a white van IRL is not free of it

This is not Clan issue or Battletech issue, it's human society issue

We can go digging deeper into this but in that case everyone should keep in mind that ensuing fallout will be hitting all factions available

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Again, I really need to read more of the novels, but I only started about a year or two ago.  So sibko training is a broken system: meant to produce elite, fanatically devoted warriors, actually produces feral sociopaths.  But since it's sociopaths all the way down to Nicolas Kerensky, no one sees the problem.  A wonder that there aren't more Malvinas Hazen out there.

Do we have any fiction about sibkos that are not about Jade Falcons? We had some about Jaguars and Trent but that was usual Jaguar stuff

[tassa_kay]

Let's put it in more practical terms:

While on paper every girl/boy of inappropriate age is fully in their right to refuse advances of some geezer with surname Davion, in practice they would be expected to simply close their eyes and think of Federated Suns

Feel free to insert any faction or ruling house of your choosing

People who own entire planets/systems/interstellar nations are not free of debauchery and corruption

Even a random nobody in a white van IRL is not free of it

This is not Clan issue or Battletech issue, it's human society issue

We can go digging deeper into this but in that case everyone should keep in mind that ensuing fallout will be hitting all factions available

Yes, sexual abuse occurs in the setting. No one is saying otherwise. But that's not what was being talked about, and I think the whataboutism here just misses the point (and in fact is largely untrue). The Clans as a culture and society are radically and fundamentally different than the rest of the setting, and that's especially true when it comes to matters of sex and procreation. Outside of the occasional depraved pirate state or what-not, we simply don't see what you're suggesting on a societal level with the Inner Sphere, and in fact have canon examples to the contrary. This is definitely not a case of "both sides are the same", and it's silly to suggest otherwise.

[Bedwyr]

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