BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Black_Knyght on 22 February 2018, 04:27:08
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A friend and I were playing around with infantry on MegaMekLab, and it got me thinking about troops like the Spetsnaz and how they might be adapted into possibly a jump-capable force in CBT.
HOW would you here write them up or portray them in CBT? Are they like Kurita's DEST, or Liao's Death Commandos? Or are they something else altogether?
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My first thought is that they'd be very like DEST. I mean, the EST part of it means "Elite Strike Team". What else do you want :)
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Infiltrator-style special forces are more of a strategic asset - I call them the kind of people who get really dangerous when they disembark from their 'Mech. If they are 'Mech-qualified in the first place.
Using these people in a stand-up fight, like sending the Death Commandos against Kathil, is a crazy waste of resources. (Granted, the Death Commandos were rather portrayed as elite MechWarriors early on when Stackpole wrote Coupé, and only later gradually morphed into elite James Bond-style infiltrators as the evolution of the BT universe progressed.)
On a gameboard, I reckon you would best represent those units as a hidden regular infantry unit with a TAG. Depending on the mission setup, they might use the TAG to play havoc with guided ammunitions of all sorts, or the mission objective might be to extract them under fire.
Off the top of my head, a quick rundown of possible candidate forces:
Davion: Rabid Foxes (portrayed as infantry; not sure if they ever use 'Mechs)
Kurita: DEST (portrayed as infiltrators, infantry and 'Mech forces)
Steiner: Loki (portrayed as infiltrators)
Marik: Dark Shadows (SAFE special ops 'Mech unit, drawn together from MechWarriors from other line units on detached duty; this being SAFE, they were duped and wiped out during the Jihad)
Liao: Death Commandos (infiltrators, 'Mech forces), Warrior Houses (infiltrators, infantry, 'Mech forces)
Wolf's Dragoons: Seventh Commando (infiltrators)
ComStar/Word of Blake: yeah...
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Infiltrator-style special forces are more of a strategic asset - I call them the kind of people who get really dangerous when they disembark from their 'Mech. If they are 'Mech-qualified in the first place.
Using these people in a stand-up fight, like sending the Death Commandos against Kathil, is a crazy waste of resources. (Granted, the Death Commandos were rather portrayed as elite MechWarriors early on when Stackpole wrote Coupé, and only later gradually morphed into elite James Bond-style infiltrators as the evolution of the BT universe progressed.)
On a gameboard, I reckon you would best represent those units as a hidden regular infantry unit with a TAG. Depending on the mission setup, they might use the TAG to play havoc with guided ammunitions of all sorts, or the mission objective might be to extract them under fire.
Off the top of my head, a quick rundown of possible candidate forces:
Davion: Rabid Foxes (portrayed as infantry; not sure if they ever use 'Mechs)
Kurita: DEST (portrayed as infiltrators, infantry and 'Mech forces)
Steiner: Loki (portrayed as infiltrators)
Marik: Dark Shadows (SAFE special ops 'Mech unit, drawn together from MechWarriors from other line units on detached duty; this being SAFE, they were duped and wiped out during the Jihad)
Liao: Death Commandos (infiltrators, 'Mech forces), Warrior Houses (infiltrators, infantry, 'Mech forces)
Wolf's Dragoons: Seventh Commando (infiltrators)
ComStar/Word of Blake: yeah...
About the closest I can think of to real life employment of SF was the Rabid Fox team in Twilight of the Clans, who were used as a reconnaissance asset, watching the Jade Falcons. Even this fell apart when they fought rather than ex-filtrated when the shooting started.
The greatest rub point here is that the authors generally see SF as simply better troops, which is complete BS. A better Mechwarrior is an elite Mechwarrior, not SF, they are trained to generate totally different effects, not more of the same.
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Infiltrator-style special forces are more of a strategic asset - I call them the kind of people who get really dangerous when they disembark from their 'Mech. If they are 'Mech-qualified in the first place.
Didn't Katrina Steiner send a bunch of Loki operators to assault the JumpShips Theodore Kurita gathered for a counterstrike in the Fourth Succession War? That's how I see these hypothetical special forces operating.
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Yeah... but BattleTech is a game about 'Mechs. Nightlord01 is right, the fiction has a tendency to "elevate" the special forces to Noble Knights in Shining Armor aka MechWarriors in standup battles, which I agree doesn't make a lot of sense. I can see them being cross-trained to use a 'Mech - but that shouldn't be their primary modus operandi.
Loki isn't ever (to my knowledge) shown operating 'Mechs. They're an underground organisation, saboteurs, infiltrators, terrorists. Not Warriors.
The Rabid Foxes are portrayed quite well as infiltrator infantry in the BC serial, From the Highest Spire. Don't recall ever seeing them using 'Mechs eiter.
Kurita DEST and the Capellan Warrior Houses seek to excel in all sorts of martial training, with a 'Mech battalion at the top of the pyramid. But while they're all cross-trained across the board, they do have specific individuals who make up their 'Mech forces.
The Death Commandos are more 'Mech centric and much less subtle than the Warrior Houses; but for the longest time they were recruited from the Warrior Houses so the special ops skills were always there.
The Dark Shadows are the attached 'Mech muscle for when SAFE needed 'Mechs to kick in doors, and weren't too concerned with special operations otherwise beyond being under SAFE command instead of regular military.
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Yeah, I'm with the folks that say that special forces troops really don't belong on a TW-scale battlefield. They're the ones that you play an AToW scenario with, and if they succeed the enemy in the next TW scenario you play is heavily hampered in some way, such as an initiative penalty due to loss of a command center, sabotaged mechs starting the game with critical hits, etc.
If you absolutely must have them on the table, I'd deploy them as TAG or demolition troops with some kind of sneak suit or other. They don't swing the battle by shooting directly at stuff, but their assistance is invaluable, and killing them is harder than it looks.
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A friend and I were playing around with infantry on MegaMekLab, and it got me thinking about troops like the Spetsnaz and how they might be adapted into possibly a jump-capable force in CBT.
HOW would you here write them up or portray them in CBT? Are they like Kurita's DEST, or Liao's Death Commandos? Or are they something else altogether?
A few things to unpack there.
First of all when you say "Spetsnaz" you can actually be meaning lots of different things. It's just the Russian analogous term for special forces. Which is not the same thing as capitalized Special Forces.
Second, special forces of the Inner Sphere go way beyond DEST/Death Commandos/Rabid Foxes. Saying DEST is Kurita's special forces is like saying Kurita's mechwarriors are all Sword of Light.
If what you want is jump/parachute infantry (with or without scary reliable gunnery skill), just take that. You can even call them special forces. DEST/Death Commandos don't even need to be part of the conversation.
For what it's worth, if you want a "spetsnaz" force that's comparable in prestige to DEST/Death Commandos you're probably looking at something along the lines of Spetsgruppe Vympel. Obviously hard to compare mech-armed "special forces" with real life ones with real life missions, but if you want opinion there's one :)
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Yeah, BT paints allot of infantry stuff in broad strokes so it's almost plug and play. You can just as easily create a Spetsnaz inspired unit in AToW and mining the TRO: 3085 list of infantry that include units like the Davion SpecOps Paratrooper.
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The ELH grew their own special forces after Serpent, they were on Milos playing the counter-insurgency game (sort of) and used PAL or light BA like GDL Scout when on the battlefield.
The Gray Death Legion did use their Scout BA to sneak into Skye laagers to try to sabotage their equipment, it sort of fell apart.
The Wolf Clan in the invasion used Headhunter elementals.
Katherine's commander on New Syrtis used his Infiltrator equipped BA battalion (or company?) to drop on the defensive CP, which did not work out well . . .
I do not think they are portrayed well in the fiction, but its a fallacy that they do not fight. When it comes to blows you grab whatever weapons are at hand, and special forces will get thrown into fighting in the line if needed. Bunch's Lost Legion series had some interesting comments about that- how the SF started off elite and fighting in their special manners but get attrit'd and end up filling a space in the line by mid-war.
Pre-3050, its the infantry in sneaksuits (which is not something well reflected on TT) that do the LRRPs, infiltration and headhunter strikes. After 3050 sneaksuits are still a tool but kind of get superseded by Nighthawks, Kages, Achileus, Infiltrator Mk II and GDL Scouts with others later on extending that specialized role. Its why the PAL & Light tend not to spend weight on mech-killing weapons- rather sensors, sensor masking tech and anti-infantry weapons all to see/avoid being seen/break contact with infantry patrols.
One of the proper examples of special forces in BT fiction is IMO, the ELH Pathfinders who drop to recon the LZ for the incoming DS.
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In game terms.. Focus on small arms with some AM and another skillset. Be it mech, asf, tank, etc. You would want them to have the best possible weapons, even those with a F or X rating in a particular time period. So something like a squad or platoon in 3025 that can outfit the Mauser 960. It has an F rating with no extinction date but we know it would be extremely rare. Also give them a 3 way sneak suit. TAG would be good but you would really want to create multiple RS for these guys as what they do is mission dependent.
TacOps has several different roles they could fill. Marine, Paratroopers, Demo team, XCT... More often than not these type troops fit better for a game session that includes some RPG such as swarming a specific mech and dragging the pilot out while one of your troopers takes his place. For any other normal CBT game then TAG or Demo troops fit better with specific strategic targets (buildings, TAGing for homing arrow, etc)
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I hadn't actually considered a theoretical "Spetsnaz" force as mechwarriors as well, but rather maybe jump-capable killer commandos of some kind. I imagine them to be a kind of specialized hunter commandos tasked with special missions, demolitions ops, assassination/head hunter strikes, infiltrators, fast shocktroops, spotters, etc.
I don't so much need to have them, but rather thought of this as an exercise on how to have them (and write that down). Having a battlemech force is easy and any schmoe can do that, but what about a unit that's more challenging and atypical?
Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetsnaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetsnaz#Etymology)
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At the CBT level of granularity infantry is pretty much infantry.
Not a ton of difference in CBT between a platoon full of peasant levies or professional special operators. All CBT cares about is gunnery skill level and equipment. If you really wanting to represent the difference, you'll be going down into the weeds that CBT doesn't visit.
Keeping it pure CBT, you might represent special forces by scenario rules/conditions. Platoons X and Y need to enter the target building and spend however many combat turns there securing the scenario macguffin. Platoons A,B,C, and D are House line troops, and don't have the training/resources necessary to secure/disarm/whatever the scenario macguffin.
Stuff like that.
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;D ;D ;D LOL, pure CBT ceased to exist they day someone in charge decided to make tanks more than targets, added new vehicles & battle armor, and decided that spaceships and starfighters would be cool. ;)
Infantry is just an area no one knows what to do with in CBT, or cares to do anything with. :)
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I love using PBIs
Best use for Spec Ops infantry is to add a little cybernetics. Not much, and not on the WoB scale. TacOps p340/341 is full fun things for infantry.
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Infantry is just an area no one knows what to do with in CBT, or cares to do anything with. :)
Aside from all the really cool stuff they already did with it, you mean.
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Someone mentioned the Wolf's Dragoons 7th Kommando, which i feel exemplifies a special ops team.
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I hadn't actually considered a theoretical "Spetsnaz" force as mechwarriors as well, but rather maybe jump-capable killer commandos of some kind. I imagine them to be a kind of specialized hunter commandos tasked with special missions, demolitions ops, assassination/head hunter strikes, infiltrators, fast shocktroops, spotters, etc.
I don't so much need to have them, but rather thought of this as an exercise on how to have them (and write that down). Having a battlemech force is easy and any schmoe can do that, but what about a unit that's more challenging and atypical?
Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetsnaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spetsnaz#Etymology)
I think it's been mentioned already, but the best example I can think of is the Seventh Kommando unit from Wolf's Dragoons. They do exactly what you're talking about here. There's some information about their various raids in the Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook (no surprise there), particularly page 9's "Raid on Styk" section and page 11's "Another Crack" sidebar. The Raid on Styk tells how the Kommandos set up a massive distraction; Another Crack describes how the Dragoons responded to McCarron's Armored Cavalry raiding their baseworld of New Valencia.
For Loki, DEST, Rabid Foxes, etc., the Intelligence Operations Handbook sourcebook has excellent information about their training, equipment, and tactics. Ironically, the A Guide to Covert Operations book doesn't really have much information at all, but does show how to create MechWarrior 3rd Ed. characters who are covert operators.
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Yeah, I'm with the folks that say that special forces troops really don't belong on a TW-scale battlefield. They're the ones that you play an AToW scenario with, and if they succeed the enemy in the next TW scenario you play is heavily hampered in some way, such as an initiative penalty due to loss of a command center, sabotaged mechs starting the game with critical hits, etc.
If you absolutely must have them on the table, I'd deploy them as TAG or demolition troops with some kind of sneak suit or other. They don't swing the battle by shooting directly at stuff, but their assistance is invaluable, and killing them is harder than it looks.
I think the second book of the Twilight of the Clans books is the best example of what I picture. A DEST team infiltrates a Clan outpost, sabotages the gyros of star of mechs and sneaks out. They only engage one target and the body is hidden. Then when mainline forces engage that star is combat ineffective.
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First of all when you say "Spetsnaz" you can actually be meaning lots of different things. It's just the Russian analogous term for special forces. Which is not the same thing as capitalized Special Forces.
This very much this. They range from military special forces to KGB/FSB special forces to internal security troops to riot police to prison guards.
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Well, I know this is late, but this was how I submitted a Elite Inf unit
Burakkureidāsu ブラックレイダース (Black Raiders) (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=56029.msg1314001#msg1314001)
The unit can handle Spetsnaz style operations but isn't "Jump"
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Basically the old GRU Spetnaz brigades from the cold war were the equivalent of the USA Rangers or British Royal Marine Commandos - elite infantry trained in small unit operations, mostly reconissance and raids, so they could be used as elite jump infantry on the tabletop.
KGB Vympel group was the equivalent of DEST or Loki (with Alpha being equivalent Lohengrin), best used in AToW.
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Honestly, I don't know if the 'Mech side of the game can handle them properly. Sure, the ballistic skill can be handled, but you need something to demonstrate the difficulty in locating and targeting them on the 'Mech scale. In addition, you need a target for them to be working against, which usually means PBI for them to slaughter.
In short, if your spetsnaz is on the table with 'Mech Lance, then something seriously went wrong. They should be where the defending 'Mechs are not.
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I'm with both PsihoKekec and Charistoph. If you're trying to model the old Soviet GRU Spetnaz brigades then they're elite jump infantry for BT Tabletop purposes. If you're trying to model the smaller groups that are more black-ops oriented they're more suited to AToW. But if you must have them on Tabletop they never directly appear only the consequences of their actions appear at Tabletop scale. When orders are suddenly interrupted by a command post deep behind the lines getting hit and throwing it into chaos leaving your players in the lurch and improvising, they did it. When their support is ambushed on the way to them and their mission fails through no fault of their own, they did it. When all the replacement parts in the depot vanish... it was most likely the crooked quartermaster :P. But essentially when something happens behind the front in an area that isn't full of battlemechs and is supposed to be secure and it screws up everything, they did it and nobody even realized until it was already done.
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Maybe airdroppable battle armor outside the Succession Wars.
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I agree for the most part they shouldn't be on the table.
Only once have I truly deployed in a campaign game my scout/sniper teams on a battle field. I managed to find a basicly undefended R&R point. Between Sniper/Spotter Use, Artillery, and an Airstrike. I removed from the enemies use.
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Hmm . . . it might be fun to 'consider' their impact . . .
Going into battle, the force that deployed their special forces could . . .
. . . declare 1 ammo bin on a enemy mech or vehicle is empty b/c the reloads never got there or they did and were sabotaged
. . . limit fuel for ICE?
. . . say a transport for infantry or BA gets removed during the set up, it was either stolen or destroyed
. . . cause random morale checks?
. . . negates any com equipment bonuses? (They destroyed a relay, put up a jammer, whatever)
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I'm with both PsihoKekec and Charistoph. If you're trying to model the old Soviet GRU Spetnaz brigades then they're elite jump infantry for BT Tabletop purposes. If you're trying to model the smaller groups that are more black-ops oriented they're more suited to AToW. But if you must have them on Tabletop they never directly appear only the consequences of their actions appear at Tabletop scale. When orders are suddenly interrupted by a command post deep behind the lines getting hit and throwing it into chaos leaving your players in the lurch and improvising, they did it. When their support is ambushed on the way to them and their mission fails through no fault of their own, they did it. When all the replacement parts in the depot vanish... it was most likely the crooked quartermaster :P . But essentially when something happens behind the front in an area that isn't full of battlemechs and is supposed to be secure and it screws up everything, they did it and nobody even realized until it was already done.
Hmm . . . it might be fun to 'consider' their impact . . .
Going into battle, the force that deployed their special forces could . . .
. . . declare 1 ammo bin on a enemy mech or vehicle is empty b/c the reloads never got there or they did and were sabotaged
. . . limit fuel for ICE?
. . . say a transport for infantry or BA gets removed during the set up, it was either stolen or destroyed
. . . cause random morale checks?
. . . negates any com equipment bonuses? (They destroyed a relay, put up a jammer, whatever)
Now THIS is something I like !!!
Not sure how exactly to go about implementing it on a TT level, but it's a solid reflection of what they're intended operational missions are!
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The closest I've ever wanted them on the table is a scenario where the mechs were to engage the defending heavy units while infiltrating units hit the base at the far end of the table to secure it for the techs who were coming in to raid it.
But that would probably require more detail than could be provided and a lot of units running around that would slow things down.
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The closest I've ever wanted them on the table is a scenario where the mechs were to engage the defending heavy units while infiltrating units hit the base at the far end of the table to secure it for the techs who were coming in to raid it.
But that would probably require more detail than could be provided and a lot of units running around that would slow things down.
Or you mix and match a TT game and RPG game. We did that for a pair of Con Games years ago. The Mechwarrior game the Team slipped try to steal two prototype mechs. They managed to get pilots in both mechs but the alarm was raised to early, resulting in the two mech being engaged by the secuirty force, before the "escort team" got there.
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Hmm . . . it might be fun to 'consider' their impact . . .
Going into battle, the force that deployed their special forces could . . .
. . . declare 1 ammo bin on a enemy mech or vehicle is empty b/c the reloads never got there or they did and were sabotaged
. . . limit fuel for ICE?
. . . say a transport for infantry or BA gets removed during the set up, it was either stolen or destroyed
. . . cause random morale checks?
. . . negates any com equipment bonuses? (They destroyed a relay, put up a jammer, whatever)
The player owning the SpecFor unit gets to declare a number of weapons or similar devices (maybe Targeting Computers or MASC) on the opposing units as having been sabotaged. The first time each of those devices is used, a roll is necessary to see if they malfunction until the unit returns to a repair bay - say you treat that like an Ultra AC jamming.
The number of devices declared sabotaged depends on the number of SpecFor units, the target number for the roll depends on their skill.
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Hmmm..., I like that! AND it's a simple enough process to use too.
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Y'know, a lot of this probably belongs down in Fan Rules... C:-)
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The player owning the SpecFor unit gets to declare a number of weapons or similar devices (maybe Targeting Computers or MASC) on the opposing units as having been sabotaged. The first time each of those devices is used, a roll is necessary to see if they malfunction until the unit returns to a repair bay - say you treat that like an Ultra AC jamming.
The number of devices declared sabotaged depends on the number of SpecFor units, the target number for the roll depends on their skill.
Perhaps something a bit less specific. Say that a side in possession of special operations troops gets to prior to battle to make a roll with a modifier based on the skill and size of the spec ops unit. This role is for a single task in support of the battle occurring off-map and outside tactical play that will hamper the enemy. Degree of success determines whether not just success or fail but how much they do either. Have some categories of actions such as: harm enemy C&C with higher echelons, slow down reinforcements, attack supporting elements, mislead enemy intelligence, sabotage supplies, etc.
So that a player subjected to a successful enemy spec ops action finds that their reinforcements are delayed by a dropped bridge or mined road or such. Or loses access to support because their off-map artillery was attacked and destroyed. And other such potential misfortunes that there is no way to fight on the tabletop.
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Y'know, a lot of this probably belongs down in Fan Rules... C:-)
Perhaps the mods could be prevailed upon to simply move the thread then? I daresay those who are following it will have no trouble finding it down there... O:-)
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Y'know, a lot of this probably belongs down in Fan Rules... C:-)
Some suggestions, maybe...
BUT, the OP is about HOW such a force could/would be used within the existing rules of CBT. Moving it destroys the point of the question and kills the post.
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Then maybe folks should get back on that topic... C:-)
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That said, what kind of useful special effects could/would a Spetsnaz-type unit have within the restrictions of existing CBT rules, beyond being just TAG-equipped Jump Infantry or worse, just cheap kills for mechs as infantry are usually intended to be?
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BUT, the OP is about HOW such a force could/would be used within the existing rules of CBT. Moving it destroys the point of the question and kills the post.
Something like this is definitely needed for both campaign games and ACS fights, especially those that are part of a ISaW game. For the later the ISaW intelligence rules might work, although changes are probably needed. I'd say you get teams based upon the number and skill level of the infantry in your attacking force.
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That said, what kind of useful special effects could/would a Spetsnaz-type unit have within the restrictions of existing CBT rules, beyond being just TAG-equipped Jump Infantry or worse, just cheap kills for mechs as infantry are usually intended to be?
TAG draws too much attention. My advice would be to go for conventional spotters for LRMs. Give them a nice sneak suit(armored if possible), dig them in at a nice vantage point, and they can call down fire almost anywhere on the battlefield. Best of all, spotting does not reveal a hidden unit. You place them right, they can have an inordinate effect on the outcome of a battle without the other guy ever knowing where they are.
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TAG draws too much attention. My advice would be to go for conventional spotters for LRMs. Give them a nice sneak suit(armored if possible), dig them in at a nice vantage point, and they can call down fire almost anywhere on the battlefield. Best of all, spotting does not reveal a hidden unit. You place them right, they can have an inordinate effect on the outcome of a battle without the other guy ever knowing where they are.
Even more fun is if they are on the attacker's faction, but placed on the defender's map sheets.
But how would you track them as hidden if there are only two players? Would the player using them have to write down what hex they are in at the start of the battle, record what shots were used with their spotting bonus, and after-battle provide everything to the defender to prove that only those shots used the spotting bonus?
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If the players don't know each other well enough to trust that the other will play it straight? Yes. Just like everything else where one player isn't meant to know something, like regular hidden units, incoming artillery fire, minefields...just write it down. It's actually a lot easier than it sounds.
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One thing to point out that the Spetnaz were kind of different to traditional Special Forces.
First, there was a lot more of them, and they were viewed very much as a strategic weapon in their own right. They were not guys who were sent out to observe targets and be sneaky. They would have been used to demolish facilities and attack air bases, blow/capture bridges, attack HQ's etc The Soviet Navy was to have been tasked with carrying teams of Spetnaz commados on subs to drop them off near hostile targets for them to hit. This was in addition to assassination of political targets etc.
Very very dangerous, incredibly high risk (to the point of being one way if the target was valuable enough).
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The Spetsnaz were both battlefield elite infantry and covert ops operators. Just prior to declaration of war, small teams would have infiltrated enemy countries undercover and attacked nuclear weapons facilities, command and communications centres, MLRS artillery and tank parks, and supply depots.
After war had been joined, a Soviet corps commander would have had IIRC a battalion of Spetsnaz at his disposal to employ on attacks behind enemy lines, or maybe guide in airstrikes and artillery.
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Special forces Jump Infantry? Yeah, I guess I'm a tad biased, but look no further than the DEST. That specific config got a shoutout in TRO:3085, too.
http://m.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Jump_Infantry
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There are infantry special forces units throughout the Successor States. Some emphasize infantry more than others, but they all have them. Special forces jump infantry could be used for a variety of purposes, such as supporting Liberation Units.